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2013 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships


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#991 Kyosama

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:52 PM

That's the worst part, being told you did nothing wrong then a minute later you're being chucked from the game.

I would have been livid.



I don't know international rules but in NA hokey the puck has to be the first thing over the blueline.


Not in the NHL.

http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=26497

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the blue line.


Edited by Kyosama, 28 December 2012 - 09:52 PM.

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#992 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

@TSNBobMcKenzie
J.C. Lipon suspended one game by IIHF. Won't be eligible to play vs USA on Sunday.
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#993 marinated.pea

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:15 PM

Everything sounds about right. Lipon's was a clear shot to the head, happy that it wasn't 2 games (probably helped that the guy was okay and kept playing).

Camara's hit was clean and didn't deserve 5+game, much less supplementary.
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#994 canucklax

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:18 PM

Everything sounds about right. Lipon's was a clear shot to the head, happy that it wasn't 2 games (probably helped that the guy was okay and kept playing).

Camara's hit was clean and didn't deserve 5+game, much less supplementary.


He put his shoulder right into the guy's head...
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#995 playboi19

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:24 PM

Are you actually going to argue that the Canuck's are a lesser team when it comes to diving? C'mon man....

But yeah of course it is cheating. However, in a big game against the Russians, who will obviously do the same, it is a make or break situation. The players have to adapt some how to this horrendous system of reffing know as the WJHC.

Where in my post did I ever mention the Canucks? You brought them up.

So then you're saying that everyone bashing the Canucks/Bruins for diving should lay off because it was a playoff game? Not sure 99% of the haters will listen to that one.
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#996 Pears

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

He put his shoulder right into the guy's head...

No, he didn't.
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#997 canucklax

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

No, he didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIWWQ24wVg


At 1:32 you can clearly see Camara's shoulder go into the slovak's chin. I'm not saying it deserves 5 games, but its not a clean hit.

The argument of people needing to keep their head up doesn't work with officials or organizers, all they see is a guy hitting a guy in the head, and will penalize the hitter

Edited by canucklax, 28 December 2012 - 10:33 PM.

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#998 marinated.pea

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

Camara kept everything down, contact to the head was incidental because Luza was crouching down. It doesn't help that Camara was told by the ref after the play that the hit was clean and that no arms went up - nothing was called till after the stretcher came out.
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#999 etsen3

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:04 PM

I'm pleased with the IIHF decisions on the suspensions. Lupin's hit was clearly illegal and suspension worthy, Camara's hit was clean.
IIHF got it right.
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#1000 DeNiro

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:07 PM

Not getting a suspension doesn't necessarily mean it was a clean hit. It just means it wasn't suspension worthy.

It was still a penalty under IIHF rules. He deserved 5 minutes for that hit.
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#1001 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:19 PM

He put his shoulder right into the guy's head...


Yeah that's true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIWWQ24wVg


At 1:32 you can clearly see Camara's shoulder go into the slovak's chin. I'm not saying it deserves 5 games, but its not a clean hit.

The argument of people needing to keep their head up doesn't work with officials or organizers, all they see is a guy hitting a guy in the head, and will penalize the hitter


The thing with this hit is it isn't a charge, Camara is engaged into the hit in advance.

The issue I have is he should have held up, the guy was in a vulnerable spot, no issue with hitting him there but he didn't need to explode through the hit like that and the target was "upper body" lets say, IMO he hit just as much of the head as the body but that sometimes happens in hockey.

I don't think it was 100% clean but I also dont think it was a dirty play (The lead up and how he hit him), but he just should have held up and stood him up rather than exploding through the hit like he did, he knew the Slovkian was vulnerable and to me the fact that he didn't hold up proves that he wanted to do that to the guy.

Not getting a suspension doesn't necessarily mean it was a clean hit. It just means it wasn't suspension worthy.

It was still a penalty under IIHF rules. He deserved 5 minutes for that hit.


Exactly, I think they got the suspension right on this. But Camara still should have held up a bit.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 28 December 2012 - 11:32 PM.

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#1002 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:21 PM

And lets be honest, if this was a Slovak that did it to a Canadian alot of people defending the hit would be calling it a bad hit.
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#1003 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:25 PM

If it was not a suspend able hit; it should be.

We need to get to respect the head and hold up.

Happy Canada did not get the big suspension, but...

Yeah that's true.



The thing with this hit is it isn't a charge, Camara is engaged into the hit in advance.

The issue I have is he should have held up, the guy was in a vulnerable spot, no issue with hitting him there but he didn't need to explode through the hit like that and the target was "upper body" lets say, IMO he hit just as much of the head as the body but that sometimes happens in hockey.

I don't think it was 100% clean but it wasn't a bad hit, he just should have held up and stood him up rather than exploding through the hit like he did, he knew the Slovkian was vulnerable and to me the fact that he didn't hold up proves that he wanted to do that to the guy.



Exactly, I think they got the suspension right on this. But Camara still should have held up a bit.


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#1004 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

Not in the NHL.

http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=26497


Well holy hell! You learn something new everyday!

Thanks for that, I truly didn't know.

That may sound sarcastic but I'm being sincere.

Edited by Gumballthechewy, 28 December 2012 - 11:29 PM.

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#1005 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:30 PM

If it was not a suspend able hit; it should be.

We need to get to respect the head and hold up.

Happy Canada did not get the big suspension, but...


Agree 100%, it's an intent to injure IMO, he has to respect that the Slovak is vulnerable and hold up.

All he had to do is stand him up rather than bowl through with the hit and he still would have put him on his 'backside' cleanly and without the mess after.
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#1006 marinated.pea

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

And lets be honest, if this was a Slovak that did it to a Canadian alot of people defending the hit would be calling it a bad hit.


Not me. A good hit is a good hit. And if it were a Canadian there would be a lot more people here berating him for getting caught with his head down. I will relent that obviously my style of watching is not by international standards, but imo the hit wasn't anything illegal, nor was it called immediately as anything before Luza got stretchered off, It wasn't a charge, it wasn't high, he didnt jump, wasn't as low as a clip, wasn't interference. All it was was Camara wanting to nail the guy and he did. I highly doubt he intended to put him on a stretcher.
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#1007 250Integra

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:51 PM

Yet you guys all cheer when Mitchell ran over Toews similarily.
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#1008 Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:17 AM

Great hit by Camara. Hope the kids alright but hes gotta learn to keep his head up.
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#1009 Kyosama

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:39 AM

Yet you guys all cheer when Mitchell ran over Toews similarily.


That was shoulder to shoulder, and probably one of the most beautiful hits I've ever seen. Even Toews called it clean and blamed himself for it.
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#1010 SamJamIam

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

For anyone thinking Camara was going to let up, that's not what you do when your opponents are going for knee on knee hits on your top players. Your job is to hit them so hard that they don't dare try that crap.

Refs were the only reason that hit happened. Had they called the game tighter at the start instead of letting the Slovaks get away with a bunch of dirty plays, then the PK would have let them reconsider their play style.
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#1011 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

For anyone thinking Camara was going to let up, that's not what you do when your opponents are going for knee on knee hits on your top players. Your job is to hit them so hard that they don't dare try that crap.

Refs were the only reason that hit happened. Had they called the game tighter at the start instead of letting the Slovaks get away with a bunch of dirty plays, then the PK would have let them reconsider their play style.


He was never going to let up, that's obvious. he wanted to do that and did it, he shouldn't have. But still he didn't want to let up and he didn't.

And putting all that aside because it has been done to death but your comment about knee on knee hits and the slovakias being dirty and stuff is kind of interesting.

There was only one play that one could think of as dirty, the knee on knee which honestly I don't think was an intentional knee on knee, & aside from that they didn't do anything dirty, the other incident with Schefiele that you might be thinking of wasn't a dirty play, the Canadian shot it from the point, the Slovakian and Schefiele both moved and reacted to the shot, Schefiele was turning akwardly and the Slovakian pushed him but honestly it was also a bit of Schefiele running into him, he lost his balance and feel akwardly, I don't see how it was dirty at all Schefiele just ran into him. and I didn't see any other dirty plays myself, so I don't really buy that it was the refs fault for the Luza thing or that you can justify him not holding up with the "getting someone back" excuse cause there wasn't anything to get back for.

(And also to back up that Slovakia isn't a dirty team, I watch the entire game against Russia and the Russian were some dirty & careless things and the Slovaks never did anything back, they never got caught up in that stuff, they just stayed resiliant and stuck to there game.)

And even if you think that hit was a knee on knee hit (Which if you watch I don't think it was, the Slovak was turning before he was close to Schefiele just could move fast enough, the camera angle on TSN is akward and tough to judge with 100% positivity but he didn't stick out his knee IMO), Lipon had already given that other guy a pretty nice headshot as retribution.

Edit: And if you think there was any other dirty plays aside from that then let me know.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 29 December 2012 - 01:56 AM.

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#1012 Pears

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:47 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIWWQ24wVg


At 1:32 you can clearly see Camara's shoulder go into the slovak's chin. I'm not saying it deserves 5 games, but its not a clean hit.

The argument of people needing to keep their head up doesn't work with officials or organizers, all they see is a guy hitting a guy in the head, and will penalize the hitter

Its incidental contact because the Slovak was not only crouching but had his head down. Your gonna get lit up each and every time your head is down. And since experts like McKenzie and even the on-ice officials said it was clean, you're beating a dead horse here.

Also listen to what Gord Miller says at 1:35: No contact to the head

Edited by Steven Stamkos' Mullet, 29 December 2012 - 07:51 AM.

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#1013 Boudrias

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:44 AM

Its incidental contact because the Slovak was not only crouching but had his head down. Your gonna get lit up each and every time your head is down. And since experts like McKenzie and even the on-ice officials said it was clean, you're beating a dead horse here.

Also listen to what Gord Miller says at 1:35: No contact to the head

One of the main objects in physical play is to deter the opponent from handling the puck, recovering the puck and making plays with the puck. If physical play is taken from the game it will fundamentally change the game. Look at the German game which used to have a large physical component. It has been toned down big time and their game has suffered IMHO.
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#1014 Garrison

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:51 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIWWQ24wVg


At 1:32 you can clearly see Camara's shoulder go into the slovak's chin. I'm not saying it deserves 5 games, but its not a clean hit.

The argument of people needing to keep their head up doesn't work with officials or organizers, all they see is a guy hitting a guy in the head, and will penalize the hitter


The guy was skating with his head down. What is Camara supposed to do? Go on his knees and hit him so it will be at his chest? Come on man. If this was in North America that player would never of had his head down and there would most likely not be an injury. Beautiful hit.
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#1015 Down by the River

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIWWQ24wVg


At 1:32 you can clearly see Camara's shoulder go into the slovak's chin. I'm not saying it deserves 5 games, but its not a clean hit.

The argument of people needing to keep their head up doesn't work with officials or organizers, all they see is a guy hitting a guy in the head, and will penalize the hitter


There are two ways of looking at this hit: (1) Is it illegal under IIHF rules, and (2) is it illegal in North America?

I think the reason for disagreement is that people aren't necessarily looking at the hit from the same perspective. Did he deserve the penalty in the WJC tournament under IIHF rules? Maybe. Did he deserve the penalty if we take the North American perspective? No, I don't think so.

In the NHL/AHL/CHL, incidental contact to the head is not considered illegal. By incidental, the leagues mean 'did not target the head'. The only reason the shoulder makes contact with the head is because the Slovak was bent over. There was no intent to 'target the head'. When your head is down like that, it is pretty much impossible NOT to make contact with the head.

Similar to the Kronwall hit on Kesler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKSoNMIIcWY

Kesler in a vulnerable position, Kronwall buries him, no penalty.

IMO, Bob Mckenzie is the leading expert when it comes to analysis on whether a hit is clean or not, as well as understanding how different leagues will view the hit. Bob Mckenzie talked about the hit being clean in the NHL/CHL.

Edited by Down by the River, 29 December 2012 - 12:22 PM.

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OMG we could've had McKeown!

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#1016 Mr. White

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIWWQ24wVg


At 1:32 you can clearly see Camara's shoulder go into the slovak's chin. I'm not saying it deserves 5 games, but its not a clean hit.

The argument of people needing to keep their head up doesn't work with officials or organizers, all they see is a guy hitting a guy in the head, and will penalize the hitter


The guy had his head down. The hit was clean, Camara didn't target his head
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#1017 Mr. White

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:36 PM

I wish Spott would play MacKinnon more
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#1018 Jägermeister

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:54 PM

Similar to the Kronwall hit on Kesler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKSoNMIIcWY

Kesler in a vulnerable position, Kronwall buries him, no penalty.


Only real difference is that Kronwall left his feet ever so slightly before contact, so you could make the argument that it was a charge, but a beautiful hit nonetheless. I'm a fan of hardnosed hockey, so I agree with it being a non-call.
Camara stayed on his feet until after contact had been made. That hit could not have been cleaner.

Edited by Jägermeister, 29 December 2012 - 12:56 PM.

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#1019 surtur

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:00 PM

There are two ways of looking at this hit: (1) Is it illegal under IIHF rules, and (2) is it illegal in North America?

I think the reason for disagreement is that people aren't necessarily looking at the hit from the same perspective. Did he deserve the penalty in the WJC tournament under IIHF rules? Maybe. Did he deserve the penalty if we take the North American perspective? No, I don't think so.

In the NHL/AHL/CHL, incidental contact to the head is not considered illegal. By incidental, the leagues mean 'did not target the head'. The only reason the shoulder makes contact with the head is because the Slovak was bent over. There was no intent to 'target the head'. When your head is down like that, it is pretty much impossible NOT to make contact with the head.

Similar to the Kronwall hit on Kesler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKSoNMIIcWY

Kesler in a vulnerable position, Kronwall buries him, no penalty.

IMO, Bob Mckenzie is the leading expert when it comes to analysis on whether a hit is clean or not, as well as understanding how different leagues will view the hit. Bob Mckenzie talked about the hit being clean in the NHL/CHL.

bad example he left his feet, other then that if he stayed on the ice it would have been a really nice clean hit.
should have been a penalty but was missed he is in the air well before any contact is made .
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#1020 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

If it was not a suspend able hit; it should be.

We need to get to respect the head and hold up.

Happy Canada did not get the big suspension, but...


Smashing good attitude! :P

Yeah we'll miss some of these big hits, but its got to be done. Maybe they will also offset the 5 min major with 2 minutes for the injured guy for being a dumbass with his head down? Uh, having too much fun here, the headshot still has to go...

Agree 100%, it's an intent to injure IMO, he has to respect that the Slovak is vulnerable and hold up.

All he had to do is stand him up rather than bowl through with the hit and he still would have put him on his 'backside' cleanly and without the mess after.


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