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#31 Squeak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:11 PM

We do not pay the highest taxes in North America. We pay the highest gas tax in North America.

And yeah...listen to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, who say everything is a waste of taxpayer money.


Everytime their chairman is on the news... I cringe.... whines about evvvvvveeeeerrryyyyythhhhhiiiiinnnngggg
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#32 Grapefruits

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:18 PM

Will they start charging us for how much air we breath in everyday? Maybe call it the air tax lol! BC is starting to become a joke with all these fees and taxes. What is the point of paying the highest taxes in North America if we still have to pay for roads, transit tax, gas tax and every other thing that our tax should cover?


We don't pay the highest taxes in North America. I don't see why people are in such an uproar over this stuff. Tolls are a way of life in mjost big cities around North America. People want the infastructure, but are unwilling to pay for it.

It's already been stated that our roads, bridges, tunnels, etc. are in major need of upgrades and repair that it far more expensive than what the taxes bring in.

A pay for use system seems a lot more fair than jacking up taxes for everyone, whether they use the roads or not.

Edited by zero-ONE-three, 25 November 2012 - 03:19 PM.

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#33 Squeak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

We don't pay the highest taxes in North America. I don't see why people are in such an uproar over this stuff. Tolls are a way of life in mjost big cities around North America. People want the infastructure, but are unwilling to pay for it.

It's already been stated that our roads, bridges, tunnels, etc. are in major need of upgrades and repair that it far more expensive than what the taxes bring in.

A pay for use system seems a lot more fair than jacking up taxes for everyone, whether they use the roads or not.


It's a valid point - however transit prices continue to rise as well.

Also if you live outside of Vancouver, the transit service can be easily described as deplorable.
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#34 Opmac

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 03:26 PM

Everytime their chairman is on the news... I cringe.... whines about evvvvvveeeeerrryyyyythhhhhiiiiinnnngggg

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation seems to be the media's go-to "expert" for everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_Xe42hzVj1w

Every time there is a conversation about fare evasion on transit, it always goes a little something like this...

CTF: Fare evasion is growing every year.
TransLink: We have fare paid zones, Transit Police, Transit Security, cameras, counting the number of fare evaders on the bus
CTF: It's inefficient. Transit Police expensive. Transit Security is cheaper.

TransLink: Let's do faregates.
CTF: Waste of taxpayer money.

TransLink: Fare evasion and crime is down system wide
CTF: More can be done.

FFS.

Edited by Opmac, 25 November 2012 - 03:29 PM.

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#35 Pouria

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

We do not pay the highest taxes in North America. We pay the highest gas tax in North America.

And yeah...listen to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, who say everything is a waste of taxpayer money.


So we pay the highest "gas tax" and also pay transit tax through our property tax yet we still need to pay tolls for bridges and pay each time we park our car (due to increased parking meters). I bet you they will also implement another new way to suck the money off of BC residents by introducing a road pricing system where we will have to pay for each KM traveled by car. Other major North American cities might have tolls but at least they aren't paying the highest "gas tax", transit tax and all the other crap we have to pay.
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#36 Opmac

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:10 PM

So we pay the highest "gas tax" and also pay transit tax through our property tax yet we still need to pay tolls for bridges and pay each time we park our car (due to increased parking meters). I bet you they will also implement another new way to suck the money off of BC residents by introducing a road pricing system where we will have to pay for each KM traveled by car. Other major North American cities might have tolls but at least they aren't paying the highest "gas tax", transit tax and all the other crap we have to pay.

Yeah, and other North American cities have a nonexistent public transit system. The gas tax funds both roads and transit.

Gas prices in Vancouver is simply among the highest regardless of the gas tax or not. Gas prices go up, more people are using transit, more service hours are needed, TransLink needs more money, and they increase the gas tax to generate revenue. Not sure if this is the right way to go though.

A road pricing scheme is the best. It is unfair for people that cross only the Port Mann Bridge to carry the burden for the road upgrades on Highway 1 from Langley to Vancouver. Road pricing will generate the required revenue to replace aging infrastructure and help relieve congestion by offering discount rates on non-peak hours. it will force people to make smarter choices.


Every time a person rides transit, they pay a usage fee through a fare. Why should drivers be exempt from a usage fee on the roads?
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#37 Grapefruits

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:33 PM

It's a valid point - however transit prices continue to rise as well.

Also if you live outside of Vancouver, the transit service can be easily described as deplorable.


Transit sucks *** outside of Vancouver! I live in Cloverdale and am sick of paying for something I can't even use becasue of how bad it is. I pay for it with gas taxes, hydro taxes, nat. gas taxes, and property taxes and I barely ever use it because it's just not functional.

Let the transit prices rise. Make the people that use it, pay for it.

Edited by zero-ONE-three, 25 November 2012 - 05:34 PM.

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#38 Harbinger

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

British Columbians are such a bunch of dupes. We have all fallen under the privatization government. None of this has to do with government funds. It all has to do with paying back the people that greased the governments palms. They know who pays for their campaigns and they are willing to pay them back a million fold for that honor.
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#39 Squeak

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:40 PM

Transit sucks *** outside of Vancouver! I live in Cloverdale and am sick of paying for something I can't even use becasue of how bad it is. I pay for it with gas taxes, hydro taxes, nat. gas taxes, and property taxes and I barely ever use it because it's just not functional.

Let the transit prices rise. Make the people that use it, pay for it.


But my point was - all the taxes are being raised AND THEN the transit rates are being increased
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#40 Taelin

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

Well, we gotta pay off the money used to build the bridge somehow. I just hope lots of people drive on it so we can pay it all off sooner.
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#41 Harbinger

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:20 AM

Well, we gotta pay off the money used to build the bridge somehow. I just hope lots of people drive on it so we can pay it all off sooner.


That's not how this works. It's partially owned by a private company. Why would they stop taking in tolls. Ever.
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#42 Beer-League-Goalie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:23 AM

Pay it off sooner...Really? They won't be taking that toll off for a long,long,long time.
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#43 Pouria

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:02 AM

Yeah, and other North American cities have a nonexistent public transit system. The gas tax funds both roads and transit.

Gas prices in Vancouver is simply among the highest regardless of the gas tax or not. Gas prices go up, more people are using transit, more service hours are needed, TransLink needs more money, and they increase the gas tax to generate revenue. Not sure if this is the right way to go though.

A road pricing scheme is the best. It is unfair for people that cross only the Port Mann Bridge to carry the burden for the road upgrades on Highway 1 from Langley to Vancouver. Road pricing will generate the required revenue to replace aging infrastructure and help relieve congestion by offering discount rates on non-peak hours. it will force people to make smarter choices.


Every time a person rides transit, they pay a usage fee through a fare. Why should drivers be exempt from a usage fee on the roads?


Wait a minute, aren't we already paying for the roads we use? We pay gas tax and we pay transit tax. By this logic, why should drivers pay for transit tax if they are going to pay for a usage fee on the roads? It just doesn't make sense. Everyone gets the burden of paying transit taxes even the people who don't use transit. So why should they pay for the transit tax? What is the point of the gas tax or carbon tax if this usage fee is implemented? Instead of finding new ways to get money, I think Translink needs to find ways to manage that money. They keep wasting money yet complain about needing more money. They will always need more money as far as am concerned, even if they introduce another money making scheme. They will implement this road usage nonsense, then they will introduce another BS tax when they still need more money. Translink is like a bottomless pit.

Edited by Pouria, 26 November 2012 - 03:05 AM.

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#44 Pouria

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:07 AM

Pay it off sooner...Really? They won't be taking that toll off for a long,long,long time.


In fact they will raise the price and make a profit out of it once the bridge has been paid for.
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#45 Pouria

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:10 AM

But my point was - all the taxes are being raised AND THEN the transit rates are being increased


And yet most of the people fall for their BS excuse of needing more money.
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#46 Horny Manatee

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

Wasn't it supposed to be a "twinning?"

As in like you know two instead of one?
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#47 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:50 AM

This is why we have the simplest system to provide transit staring at us in the face and no one will do anything about it.

We can't build highways because Vancouver City Hall won't allow them. So whats the solution? RAIL! It is far easier and cheaper to build a series of rail lines in and out of the city. You can have it run to Hope if you want to right to Whistler Village. We can't even build a skytrain line correctly! The idiots in Victoria build the Canada Line and they think after the Olympics no one in Richmond and Vancouver will want to go downtown? They built the stations too small, and the trains are only 2 cars long? WTF????

Part of the problem with rail of course is property owners. The ones with the NIMBY attitudes. (Not In My Back Yard). Oh rail is too noisy, rail will lower my property values, rail will jump up crime in my neighbourhood. This is why we don't have more jails, rehab clinics, half-way houses, and subsidized housing, and seniors care.

We need long term planning, instead of short term profiteering.
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#48 Opmac

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

Wait a minute, aren't we already paying for the roads we use? We pay gas tax and we pay transit tax. By this logic, why should drivers pay for transit tax if they are going to pay for a usage fee on the roads? It just doesn't make sense. Everyone gets the burden of paying transit taxes even the people who don't use transit. So why should they pay for the transit tax? What is the point of the gas tax or carbon tax if this usage fee is implemented? Instead of finding new ways to get money, I think Translink needs to find ways to manage that money. They keep wasting money yet complain about needing more money. They will always need more money as far as am concerned, even if they introduce another money making scheme. They will implement this road usage nonsense, then they will introduce another BS tax when they still need more money. Translink is like a bottomless pit.

There is no "transit tax" on top of the gas tax. The gas tax not only pays for transit, it pays for roads in Metro Vancouver as well.

See: http://www.metrovanc...Jan11/MapB2.pdf

The carbon tax does not pay for anything.

TransLink has already found $139 million in efficiencies.

Money is needed now because there has been no significant infrastructure upgrades around Metro Vancouver for ~50 years. The last time significant money was spent on road infrastructure was during the freeway/highway/suburban craze in the post-war period. They all need to be upgraded/replaced now.

The population in Metro Vancouver was 790,741 in 1961. The population is now 2,313,328.

.
Would you suggest TransLink should be privatized then since private corporations always do things better...

Edited by Opmac, 26 November 2012 - 12:54 PM.

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#49 Snake Doctor

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

Bottom line is we all pay taxes. These taxes collected go towards the maintenance of our roads. We shouldn't have to pay for this bridge on top of that.
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#50 Squeak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

Bottom line is we all pay taxes. These taxes collected go towards the maintenance of our roads. We shouldn't have to pay for this bridge on top of that.


Couldn't agree more.

The fact that I would need to go 15 minutes out of my way (Pattullo) just to avoid a toll is a joke.
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#51 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

That's not how this works. It's partially owned by a private company. Why would they stop taking in tolls. Ever.


That was the plan. In fact near complete private ownership was the plan. But it turns out that due to the financial crisis of 2008 nobody wanted to put in the funding so the province is the owner and will take in the Lion's share of the tolls.

A private company did the design, building, and will operate the bridge. I don't know the details off hand but they will no doubt get some funding based on traffic volumes as part of the operations agreement but should the bridge start making money hand over fist (which I suspect it will) it will be going to the BC government.
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#52 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:26 PM

Bottom line is we all pay taxes. These taxes collected go towards the maintenance of our roads. We shouldn't have to pay for this bridge on top of that.


Nope. Taxes go to general revenue. That general revenue can't even keep up with existing budgets.

If you wanted to say target gas taxes to infrastructure that's fine but you would need to increase income or sales taxes to make up the difference. As is were running a deficit which only makes things worse down the road.
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#53 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:32 PM

There is no "transit tax" on top of the gas tax. The gas tax not only pays for transit,


See: http://www.metrovanc...Jan11/MapB2.pdf

The carbon tax does not pay for anything.

TransLink has already found $139 million in efficiencies.

Money is needed now because there has been no significant infrastructure upgrades around Metro Vancouver for ~50 years. The last time significant money was spent on road infrastructure was during the freeway/highway/suburban craze in the post-war period. They all need to be upgraded/replaced now.

The population in Metro Vancouver was 790,741 in 1961. The population is now 2,313,328.

.
Would you suggest TransLink should be privatized then since private corporations always do things better...


The lion's share of Translinks outlays go to transit. Roads get a pittance.
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#54 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:34 PM

This is why we have the simplest system to provide transit staring at us in the face and no one will do anything about it.

We can't build highways because Vancouver City Hall won't allow them. So whats the solution? RAIL! It is far easier and cheaper to build a series of rail lines in and out of the city. You can have it run to Hope if you want to right to Whistler Village. We can't even build a skytrain line correctly! The idiots in Victoria build the Canada Line and they think after the Olympics no one in Richmond and Vancouver will want to go downtown? They built the stations too small, and the trains are only 2 cars long? WTF????

Part of the problem with rail of course is property owners. The ones with the NIMBY attitudes. (Not In My Back Yard). Oh rail is too noisy, rail will lower my property values, rail will jump up crime in my neighbourhood. This is why we don't have more jails, rehab clinics, half-way houses, and subsidized housing, and seniors care.

We need long term planning, instead of short term profiteering.


Rail is not cheap or easy. The reason the Canada line has such small stations is they were scrambling to put together enough money to get it done. Had they put in full size stations the budget would have swollen probably to 3 billion dollars and might have been delayed or canceled all together.

Look how long the Evergreen line idled and went through revisions because they were a couple hundred million dollars short.
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#55 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:36 PM

Well, we gotta pay off the money used to build the bridge somehow. I just hope lots of people drive on it so we can pay it all off sooner.


As the tolls alternate routes get fewer and fewer soon it will be impossible to take a toll free alternative.

We shall see how drivers react but I could see Delta and New West loosing their minds if people choose the free alternative regardless of delays.
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#56 J.R.

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:39 PM

Delta should just put it's own screenline in :lol:
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#57 inane

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:52 PM

Bottom line is we all pay taxes. These taxes collected go towards the maintenance of our roads. We shouldn't have to pay for this bridge on top of that.


If the taxes aren't covering the costs, how do you expect to pay for a new bridge??

This delusion people having about driving and how you have absolutely no idea how expensive it actually is...it's remarkable.
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#58 MadMonk

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

That's not how this works. It's partially owned by a private company. Why would they stop taking in tolls. Ever.


From the Port Mann/HW1 improvement project website:

TOLL COLLECTION

The toll will be in place to pay for the cost of the PMH1 Project, including the new bridge and highway and interchange improvements. The tolls will be collected by the Transportation Investment Corporation (TI Corp) and used to pay directly for the costs of the project. Toll will not be directed to Provincial Government general revenues.
TI Corp operates under an agreement with the Province of British Columbia known as the Concession Agreement (CA). The CA puts into place the powers required for TI Corp to implement the project. Once the project is paid for, the tolls will be removed. This is expected to take approximately 40 years. The CA authorizes TI Corp to collect tolls for a period not to exceed 40 years.


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#59 Gerg

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:53 PM

Bottom line is we all pay taxes. These taxes collected go towards the maintenance of our roads. We shouldn't have to pay for this bridge on top of that.


Then it will come out of everyone's pockets, not just the users. If I lived and worked downtown and had to pay for a billion dollar bridge that I would use once every year, I would be choked.

That said, tolls are to be expected in major metro areas, but one could argue that they should be a heck of a lot cheaper than $3.00 or whatever it's going to be. On the eastern seaboard, isn't it something like 80 cents to go on their turnpikes?
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#60 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

The only real annoying thing is they could have taken the temp barriers out and had four lanes over the bridge westbound with two + HOV past the Laughead interchange for two weeks now but are clearly just leaving it there so they can show a drastic difference for a week before they slap on the toll.
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