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UN To Vote On Change of Palestine Status to Non-Member Observer On Thursday


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#91 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

Nobody even wants to live in Iran, Syria and other Arab nations. Every iranian i know was happy about the embassy closure and doesnt want to return to iran. that says the most to me, when a person doesnt even want to live in their own country. i couldnt even imagine what it would take for me to move out of canada permanently. Those citizens have been permanently moving west. And others wish they could but only can't afford to. If your own country can't even support and become a place where it's inhabitants wish to live then it's a failed nation in my opinion. May as well not be recognized at all. And Palestine will just be another failed nation. Not that I want it to, but that's just how I see it.


Hey, I know most of my Russian friends don't want to live in Russia. Most of the Chinese people probably rather live in Canada than in China. I guess those nations are also failed nations. Your reasoning of what should and should not be a recognized state is flawed. Going by your logic, only Canada and US should be a recognized state since everyone likes to live here and other countries are just a craphole.
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#92 Tearloch7

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

One could ask oneself why these states are failing .. combination of religion and oppression .. those two go together so well .. what is the "enlightened west" doing to help lift those nations from their morass? .. in most cases they are helping perpetuate the situation .. there are no easy answers but some folks will do all they can to prevent people finding those answers .. US paying lip service to any Middle East peace process does no good for anyone involved .. dark days ahead for all I think ..

Maybe the Muslim Brotherhood will take on a more active role politically throughout the area .. maybe THAT will force Israel to the peace table ..
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#93 DonLever

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

The Isareli government just authorized the construction of 3000 new homes in the West Bank.

http://abcnews.go.co...uction-17846867


This move certainly show what the Israeli government think of yesterdays UN vote. They gave the finger to it.

The Israelis just don't get it. They are in denial on why the world voted against them. Only 9 countries out of 193 supports them without reservation. Unfortunately, Canada is one of them.
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#94 Special Ed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

Hey, I know most of my Russian friends don't want to live in Russia. Most of the Chinese people probably rather live in Canada than in China. I guess those nations are also failed nations. Your reasoning of what should and should not be a recognized state is flawed. Going by your logic, only Canada and US should be a recognized state since everyone likes to live here and other countries are just a craphole.


From what I have seen you definitely don't want to live in Russia or china. The ones that do simply don't know what they're missing in my opinion. Again to me those countries FAIL on the most basic principles of providing their citizens with one of the best places in the world to live. My logic is not that only Canada and the US are the only recognized states. I never said that.
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#95 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

The Isareli government just authorized the construction of 3000 new homes in the West Bank.

http://abcnews.go.co...uction-17846867


This move certainly show what the Israeli government think of yesterdays UN vote. They gave the finger to it.

The Israelis just don't get it. They are in denial on why the world voted against them. Only 9 countries out of 193 supports them without reservation. Unfortunately, Canada is one of them.


Too bad some sheep here just religiously agree with what Israel thinks is right. Forget about other nations in the world since they are obscure or 3rd world or poor or irrelevant, lets just bend down to what Israel wants since its obviously better for everyone. It is the with us or against us mentality all over again.
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#96 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

From what I have seen you definitely don't want to live in Russia or china. The ones that do simply don't know what they're missing in my opinion. Again to me those countries FAIL on the most basic principles of providing their citizens with one of the best places in the world to live. My logic is not that only Canada and the US are the only recognized states. I never said that.


You are a piece of work aren't you? Here is a question for you. Who wants to live in Israel? I guess Israel is a failed state too.
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#97 Special Ed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

You are a piece of work aren't you? Here is a question for you. Who wants to live in Israel? I guess Israel is a failed state too.


When Israel was created didn't Jews from across the world immigrate to Israel? Even despite constant attacks and the threat of terrorism. I'm going to think this one over but interesting question.

'Israeli independence in 1948 was marked by *massive immigration of Jews from both Europe and the Islamic world* to Israel, and of Arabs from Israel leading to extensive conflict with the Arab League'

But yes still to me in our current time Israel still has failed upon its most basic principle of providing one of the best places in the world to live for its people. Having to choose though personally I would immigrate to Israel before Iran, china, Syria and other Arab nations.


Edited by Special Ed, 30 November 2012 - 03:15 PM.

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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

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#98 Dellins

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:06 PM

The Isareli government just authorized the construction of 3000 new homes in the West Bank.

http://abcnews.go.co...uction-17846867


This move certainly show what the Israeli government think of yesterdays UN vote. They gave the finger to it.

The Israelis just don't get it. They are in denial on why the world voted against them. Only 9 countries out of 193 supports them without reservation. Unfortunately, Canada is one of them.


The US didn't even have to tug on our leash for this one.

Anyways, MORE SETTLEMENTS ARE REQUIRED.
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#99 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:16 PM

Actually I'm going to change my stance. When Israel was created didn't Jews from across the world immigrate to Israel? Even despite constant attacks and the threat of terrorism. I'm going to think this one over but interesting question.


The situation is different now compared to back when Israel was just created. Most Jews moved back because they were happy to have a new home. Is the situation now the same?
I would move to Iran before I migrate to Israel not because am biased but because of safety concerns. I would be more safe in Iran than in Israel which is always having conflicts with Palestinians. In fact, I don't take you seriously when you say you would rather move to a nation that is always under attack than nations who are less likely to be attacked by terrorists like China or Russia.
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#100 Special Ed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:59 PM

The situation is different now compared to back when Israel was just created. Most Jews moved back because they were happy to have a new home. Is the situation now the same?
I would move to Iran before I migrate to Israel not because am biased but because of safety concerns. I would be more safe in Iran than in Israel which is always having conflicts with Palestinians. In fact, I don't take you seriously when you say you would rather move to a nation that is always under attack than nations who are less likely to be attacked by terrorists like China or Russia.

So you're saying Israel is likely to be attacked by terrorists? Well that doesn't seem very nice. And probably a reason people choose not to immigrate there in the first place. Where do those dastardly terrorists come from? Hmmmm
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#101 taxi

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

The situation is different now compared to back when Israel was just created. Most Jews moved back because they were happy to have a new home. Is the situation now the same?
I would move to Iran before I migrate to Israel not because am biased but because of safety concerns. I would be more safe in Iran than in Israel which is always having conflicts with Palestinians. In fact, I don't take you seriously when you say you would rather move to a nation that is always under attack than nations who are less likely to be attacked by terrorists like China or Russia.


Well your still wrong. Hundreds of thousands of Jews have moved to Israel since the USSR collapsed. Jews would much rather live in Israel than Russia.
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#102 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

So you're saying Israel is likely to be attacked by terrorists? Well that doesn't seem very nice. And probably a reason people choose not to immigrate there in the first place. Where do those dastardly terrorists come from? Hmmmm


They are already under attack aren't they? Isn't there a Palestine-Israel conflict? Those terrorists come from Hamas and Israel does the same thing to them. As far as am concerned, Israel is also perceived to be a terrorist nation by the Palestinians so it is pretty much a wash.
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#103 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:11 PM

Well your still wrong. Hundreds of thousands of Jews have moved to Israel since the USSR collapsed. Jews would much rather live in Israel than Russia.


Well, Russians would much rather live in Russia than Israel. Just ask Radulov.
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#104 taxi

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

Well, Russians would much rather live in Russia than Israel. Just ask Radulov.


Nope. There are many Russians who fake Jewish backgrounds to try and gain entry into Israel. Russia has a shrinking population. People want out.
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#105 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:37 PM

Nope. There are many Russians who fake Jewish backgrounds to try and gain entry into Israel. Russia has a shrinking population. People want out.


Well, why would they go to Israel? If they want out, isn't US, Canada or Australia better options? I mean I would never want to live in Israel because of the ongoing conflicts they have with Palestine and personal safety. I don't want a rocket hitting my head when am walking down the street but thats just me.
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#106 taxi

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:18 PM

Well, why would they go to Israel? If they want out, isn't US, Canada or Australia better options? I mean I would never want to live in Israel because of the ongoing conflicts they have with Palestine and personal safety. I don't want a rocket hitting my head when am walking down the street but thats just me.


Immigration policies. The USA, Canada, and Australia aren't exactly open doors. I do, however, agree that Canada is a better place to live than Israel. In fact, for me anyways, it's the best place to live.

That being said the fact that millions of arabs continue to hold Israeli citizenship despite having the option to leave and that Jews from all the world have flocked there says something about the quality of life there and the rights Israeli citizens enjoy.
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#107 Pouria

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:25 PM

Immigration policies. The USA, Canada, and Australia aren't exactly open doors. I do, however, agree that Canada is a better place to live than Israel. In fact, for me anyways, it's the best place to live.

That being said the fact that millions of arabs continue to hold Israeli citizenship despite having the option to leave and that Jews from all the world have flocked there says something about the quality of life there and the rights Israeli citizens enjoy.


Too bad they have a crappy foreign policy and are always under threat of being attacked. They just have a big target on their back. Not sure where they would be without US assistance.
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#108 theminister

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:38 PM

The US didn't even have to tug on our leash for this one.

Anyways, MORE SETTLEMENTS ARE REQUIRED.


Why? The population of Israel is set to decline rapidly over the next couple of decades without huge immigration.

Heck, the percentage population of Jewish people in the country is at an all time low nearing 75%.

Settlements are not a demographic requirement. They are a political tool.
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#109 taxi

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

Why? The population of Israel is set to decline rapidly over the next couple of decades without huge immigration.

Heck, the percentage population of Jewish people in the country is at an all time low nearing 75%.

Settlements are not a demographic requirement. They are a political tool.


Not at all true.

The average Jewish woman, as of 2011, gives birth to 2.98 babies and rising. In order to maintain a population you need about a 2.1 baby average per woman.

The muslim birthrate is 3.51 and falling.

The issue of demographics will also be largely impacted by a land swap. It's likely that Israel will give land with high muslim populations to the new Palestinian state in the future. The arab population is largely concentrated in certain areas of Israel.
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#110 theminister

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

Not at all true.

The average Jewish woman, as of 2011, gives birth to 2.98 babies and rising. In order to maintain a population you need about a 2.1 baby average per woman.

The muslim birthrate is 3.51 and falling.

The issue of demographics will also be largely impacted by a land swap. It's likely that Israel will give land with high muslim populations to the new Palestinian state in the future. The arab population is largely concentrated in certain areas of Israel.


Actually it's all true. Let's be clear.... these settlements are not for Arab Israelis.

The Jewish birthrate is rising but the total number of babies being born is set for a steep drop off due to the aging population. By contrast, not only are they still out birthing Jews, the Arab population is about 10 years younger on average. Anyone can try and spin the numbers as much as they want but the stats show very clearly that Israel is becoming less Jewish every year. There is a baby boom drop off coming for Israeli Jews and it is within 20 years.

If the expectation that the small 3-4% annual increase in Israel's population come mostly from non-Jewish immigrants and Arabs, what does that tell you?

Here is an article by a typical protectionist thinker of the establishment. The fundamentalists are worried for a reason.

http://www.haaretz.c...lining-1.317042

Edited by theminister, 30 November 2012 - 06:44 PM.

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#111 DarthNinja

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

Nope. There are many Russians who fake Jewish backgrounds to try and gain entry into Israel. Russia has a shrinking population. People want out.


You mean just like European zionists faked Jewish names in order to deceive people of their Hebrew ancestry when founding a fraudulent nation on top of another nation through terrorism, oppression and brutality?
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#112 Tearloch7

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:43 PM

A great group, if anyone is interested: ..

Avaazers, it's time to celebrate!

Hours ago, the UN voted overwhelmingly to recognise Palestine as the world's 194th state!!! It’s a huge victory for the Palestinian people, for peace, for our community, and people across the world are joining with massive crowds in Palestine to celebrate.

The Palestinian people's journey to freedom is far from over. But this is a powerful step, and our community played a key role in it. Responding to the vote, Palestine's Ambassador to Europe said:

"Avaaz and its members across the world have played a crucial role in persuading governments to support the Palestinian people's bid for a state and for freedom and peace. They have stood with us throughout and their solidarity and support will be remembered and cherished across Palestine." - Leila Shahid, General Palestinian Delegate to Europe
Posted Image Brussels Action: While EU leaders met, THIS was happening right outside their windows Posted Image Madrid Action: Avaaz members want Spain PM Rajoy to say YES!
The US and Israeli governments; beholden to extreme lobby groups (yes, sadly even Obama has given in), threw everything they had at crushing this vote, using financial threats and even threatening to overthrow the Palestinian President if he went ahead. Europe was the key swing vote, and under intense US pressure, leaders were, just two weeks ago, leaning towards not supporting the Palestinian state. Knowing the stakes, our community responded with the speed and democratic force that we needed to win:
  • Nearly 1.8 million of us signed the petition calling for statehood.
  • Thousands of us donated to fund public opinion polls across Europe -- showing that a whopping 79% of Europeans supported a Palestinian state. Our polls were plastered all over the media, and repeatedly cited in Parliamentary debates in the UK, Spain and France!
  • We sent tens of thousands of emails, Facebook messages and Tweets to leaders across Europe and made thousands of calls to foreign ministries and heads of state.
  • We unfurled a giant 4-storey banner outside the EU Commission in Brussels (right) while leaders were meeting inside. Then, we staged another stunt in Madrid. Previously, we had sailed a flotilla of ships past the UN calling for a vote. Our actions made headlines all over Europe.
  • Avaaz staff and members met with dozens and dozens of government ministers, top advisors, senior journalists, parliamentarians and thought leaders in each of the key countries, in many cases teaming up to win over leaders one by one through advocacy, pressure, parliamentary resolutions and public statements, always drawing on the surge in people power behind this cause.
  • We reached out to key thought leaders like Stéphane Hessel, a 94-year old survivor of Nazi concentration camps, and Ron Pundak, an Israeli who played a key role in Oslo peace process, to speak out in favour of statehood.
One by one, key European states broke with the US to answer the call of justice and their peoples. In the final vote tally we got just now, only 9 countries out of 193 have voted against! France, Spain, Italy, Sweden and most of Europe has voted for Palestine.

The US and Israel argued first that statehood was dangerous for peace, and then, when they'd lost, that it didn't matter and the vote was just symbolic. But if it were just symbolic they wouldn't have done everything to try and stop it. And after years of bad-faith negotiations and Israeli comfort with the status quo as they steadily colonize more Palestinian land, this move shows the US and Israel that if they do not engage in good faith, the Palestinians and the world are prepared to move forward without them. It's a more balanced basis for real peace talks. And that's the best alternative to the kind of violence we saw Israel's government and Hamas offer in Gaza this month.

For decades the Palestinian people have suffered under a stifling Israeli military dictatorship, repressive controls on their travel and work, continual denial of their rights and the constant threat of insecurity and violence. 65 years ago yesterday, the UN recognized the state of Israel, beginning a path to the establishment of a safe home for the Jewish people. Now the Palestinians take a step down the same path, and gain a dignity in the eyes of the international community that they have been denied for a generation. And from that dignity, we can build the foundations of peace.

With hope and joy,

Ricken, Alice, Ari, Wissam, Allison, Sam, Julien, Pascal, Wen, Pedro, Saravanan, Emma, Ben, Dalia, Alexey, Paul, Marie, Aldine, Luca, Jamie, Morgan and the whole Avaaz team.

PS Here are some sources - The Associated Press covers today's victory, the Guardian covers our polling two weeks ago, Avaaz's Daily Briefing provides a map of the vote result, and Haaretz describes Israel's response
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#113 Dellins

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

Why? The population of Israel is set to decline rapidly over the next couple of decades without huge immigration.

Heck, the percentage population of Jewish people in the country is at an all time low nearing 75%.

Settlements are not a demographic requirement. They are a political tool.


/sarcasm
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#114 theminister

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:01 PM

Yeah, sorry Dellins.

Israel/ Palestine causes so much derp it's impossible to tell which is which.
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#115 Dellins

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

Yeah, sorry Dellins.

Israel/ Palestine causes so much derp it's impossible to tell which is which.


That's okayyyyy :P
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#116 key2thecup

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:51 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G-p4vMfsSg

Ron Paul: Blind support of Israel leads to unexpected consequences

by Ron Paul

As of late Friday the ceasefire in Gaza seems to be holding, if tentatively. While we should be pleased that this round of fighting appears temporarily on hold, we must realize that without changes in US foreign policy it is only a matter of time before the killing begins again.

It feels like 2009 all over again, which is the last time this kind of violence broke out in Gaza. At that time over 1,400 Palestinians were killed, of which just 235 were combatants. The Israelis lost 13 of which 10 were combatants. At that time I said of then-President Bush’s role in the conflict:


It’s our money and our weapons. But I think we encouraged it. Certainly, the president has said nothing to diminish it. As a matter of fact, he justifies it on moral grounds, saying, oh, they have a right to do this, without ever mentioning the tragedy of Gaza…. To me, I look at it like a concentration camp.


The US role has not changed under the Obama administration. The same mistakes continue. As journalist Glenn Greenwald wrote last week:


“For years now, US financial, military and diplomatic support of Israel has been the central enabling force driving this endless conflict. The bombs Israel drops on Gazans, and the planes they use to drop them, and the weapons they use to occupy the West Bank and protect settlements are paid for, in substantial part, by the US taxpayer…”


Last week, as the fighting raged, President Obama raced to express US support for the Israeli side, in a statement that perfectly exemplifies the tragic-comedy of US foreign policy. The US supported the Israeli side because, he said, “No country on Earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.” Considering that this president rains down missiles on Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and numerous other countries on a daily basis, the statement was so hypocritical that it didn’t pass the laugh test. But it wasn’t funny.

US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton traveled to Tel Aviv to meet with Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, but she refused to meet with elected Palestinian leaders. Clinton said upon arrival in Israel, “America’s commitment to Israel’s security is rock-solid and unwavering.” Does this sound like an honest broker?

At the same time Congress acted with similar ignobility when an unannounced resolution was brought to the House floor after the business of the week had been finished; and in less than 30 seconds the resolution was passed by unanimous consent, without debate and without most Representatives even having heard of it. The resolution, H Res 813, was so one-sided it is not surprising they didn’t want anyone to have the chance to read and vote on it. Surely at least a handful of my colleagues would have objected to language like, “The House of Representatives expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders…”

US foreign policy being so one-sided actually results in more loss of life and of security on both sides. Surely Israelis do not enjoy the threat of missiles from Gaza nor do the Palestinians enjoy their Israel-imposed inhuman conditions in Gaza. But as long as Israel can count on its destructive policies being underwritten by the US taxpayer it can continue to engage in reckless behavior. And as long as the Palestinians feel the one-sided US presence lined up against them they will continue to resort to more and more deadly and desperate measures.

Continuing to rain down missiles on so many increasingly resentful nations, the US is undermining rather than furthering its security. We are on a collision course with much of the rest of the world if we do not right our foreign policy. Ending interventionism in the Middle East and replacing it with friendship and even-handedness would be a welcome first step.

http://www.ronpaul.c...d-consequences/


Edited by key2thecup, 30 November 2012 - 09:51 PM.

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#117 Harbinger

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:18 AM

Australia
New Zealand
Iceland
Sri Lanka
Malta
Bermuda
Madagascar


A trend?


every country has an "A" in the name.....
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#118 Harbinger

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

The world needs to rid itself of Israel. Israel just needs to be gone. I don't mean by killing everyone. I mean by making it completely uninhabitable.
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#119 Special Ed

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:55 PM

The world needs to rid itself of Israel. Israel just needs to be gone. I don't mean by killing everyone. I mean by making it completely uninhabitable.


How?
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#120 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

The world needs to rid itself of Israel. Israel just needs to be gone. I don't mean by killing everyone. I mean by making it completely uninhabitable.


It's certainly not a place anyone wants to visit or live there. If you're implying fissile material or 'salting the earth' then that's the equivalent of killing everyone.
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