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UN To Vote On Change of Palestine Status to Non-Member Observer On Thursday


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#121 key2thecup

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:47 AM

Israel Building Plan Prompts Diplomatic Protest by 5 Nations


JERUSALEM — Britain, France, Spain, Sweden and Denmark summoned the Israeli ambassadors to their countries on Monday to protest Israel’s plans for increased settlement construction, an unusually sharp diplomatic step that reflected the growing frustration abroad with Israel’s policies on the Palestinian issue.

After the General Assembly voted overwhelmingly last week to upgrade the status of the Palestinians at the United Nations, Israel announced plans for 3,000 more housing units in contested areas east of Jerusalem and around the West Bank.
Israel raised particular alarms with its decision to continue planning and zoning work for the development of a contentious area known as E1, a project vehemently opposed internationally because it would partially separate the northern and southern West Bank, harming the prospects of a contiguous Palestinian state.

The move raised questions in Israel about whether the country’s leaders were putting domestic political interests ahead of its foreign relations, with Israeli elections scheduled for late January.
“Bibi had to do something” in response to the United Nations vote, said Prof. Shmuel Sandler of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Bar-Ilan Universiy, referring to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, by his nickname, “first because he is Bibi and second because of the elections.”

Mr. Sandler said that Mr. Netanyahu, a conservative, was making the mistake of competing against those further to his right, adding, “But I don’t think he expected such a reaction” internationally.

Yet Israel remained defiant. The prime minister’s office issued a statement on Monday, saying, “Israel will continue to stand for its essential interests, even in the face of international pressure, and there will be no change in the decision it has taken.”
A press officer for United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said in a statement on Sunday that construction in E1 “would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution.”

European countries long opposed to Israeli settlement construction went beyond their usual statements of condemnation.
The countries that called in the Israeli ambassadors “expressed their strong protests about the announced settlement plans,” said Yigal Palmor, the spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry.

Mr. Palmor said that the Israeli ambassadors told their hosts that Israel has been warning for months that the Palestinian bid at the United Nations would not go unanswered and would have implications.
Israel has described the bid as a unilateral Palestinian step that violates previous signed agreements. The Palestinians have long refused to negotiate with Israel without a halt in settlement construction.

France, Spain, Sweden and Denmark voted for the Palestinian upgrade, while Britain abstained. Although Israel had expected the resolution to pass, officials here expressed disappointment over the lack of support from several friendly European nations. Israel was particularly surprised by Germany’s decision to abstain in the vote, having expected Germany to go with Israel.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is scheduled to visit Germany this week. Despite the so-called special relationship between Israel and Germany, Chancellor Angela Merkel has not minced words about her opposition to Israeli settlement construction in the past.

Philippe Lalliot, a spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry, said in a statement on Monday that “Settlement activity is illegal under international law, hurts the confidence necessary for a return to dialogue and constitutes an obstacle to a just peace founded on the two-state solution.”

The British Foreign Office said it deplored the Israeli settlement plans and that it had called on the Israeli government to reverse the decision.

But Israeli officials denied that the government’s policies were isolating Israel.
“It is well known that Europe and Israel have a different approach on settlements,” said one Israeli official, speaking on condition of anonymity. “There is nothing new here. If European countries would have behaved differently in their vote at the United Nations last week,” he continued, “we may have reacted differently.”

Analysts here said that after showing strong support for Israel during its military campaign last month against Hamas, the Islamic militant group that controls Gaza, European countries had felt the need to bolster the more moderate Palestinian wing led by President Mahmoud Abbas in its United Nations bid.

At the weekly cabinet meeting on Sunday, Mr. Netanyahu said, “Today we are building and we will continue to build in Jerusalem and in all areas that are on the map of the strategic interests of the State of Israel.”
But beyond the tit-for-tat measures set off by the United Nations vote, analysts pointed to a trend of deteriorating relations between Israel and Europe in particular.

“That is because the top-level people making decisions here in recent years are completely insular and out of touch with the rest of the world, especially regarding the Palestinians and the settlements,” said Mark Heller, a foreign-policy analyst at the Institute for National Security Studies at Tel Aviv University. “Self-righteousness may be good for domestic politics,” he said, but it is not a policy.”

At the United Nations General Assembly on Thursday, 138 nations voted in favor of upgrading the status of the Palestinians and 41 abstained. The nine that voted against it were Israel, the United States, Canada, the Czech Republic, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Panama and Palau.

http://www.nytimes.c...ment-plans.html


Edited by key2thecup, 03 December 2012 - 11:47 AM.

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#122 Tearloch7

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for sharing ^ ^ ^ .. one word immediately comes to mind .. "colonization" ..
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#123 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:00 PM


Whats new , the israeli's have been taking land from the palestinians since the formation of their state .
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#124 :D

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

Support for Israel is fading. Soon it is just gong to be America and America alone in their pocket.
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#125 Common sense

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

You can't colonize something that's already yours to begin with...
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#126 Tearloch7

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

You can't colonize something that's already yours to begin with...


Something you learned in Sunday School?
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#127 Coda

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

Your perceived future consequence of current events is just a seed of propaganda which US and Israel is trying to spread. Am sorry but Palestine deserves to be a recognized state and most of the world agrees with me. Your reasoning of why you oppose this is what makes it a self-centered ideology.


I'm still not getting your "self-centered ideology" viewpoint. All nations try to implement policies that are advantageous to them. I suppose Israel being reluctant to give up its national security and secure borders to groups and nations that have repeatedly stated their goal to is to annihilate Israel and/or Jews and have repeatedly attempted it by war and terrorism is being self-centered. However another way of describing this viewpoint could be "not being insane".

Perhaps you forget that throughout the years it has usually been Israel that has supported a two-state solution, with the Palestinian people usually rejecting this option in order to try to completely annihilate Israel.

Israel is not without fault. Attempts to extend settlements in the West Bank by the Right Wingers of Israel is, I think, counterproductive.

I guess Iran, Syria and other Arab nations shouldn't be recognized states since they hate Israel.


Evidently you haven't been following the conversation carefully. The issue is not about hating Israel: tons of countries hate Israel. The issue is Israeli self-preservation.
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#128 Coda

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:00 PM

Whats new , the israeli's have been taking land from the palestinians since the formation of their state .


Debatable. Did you know, the "Palestinian Arabs" never referred to themselves as such until 1967? There was never an Arab nation of Palestine...the world Palestine was implemented by the Romans to refer to the inhabitants of a backwater province, which at that time were almost entirely Jewish. Ever watched the 1960 movie "Exodus" about the formation of Israel? The Palestinians referred to in that movie were actually Jewish settlers. Before the formation of Israel the area of Palestine was a backwater with tiny populations of Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians. Arab migration to the area only took off when zionists began arriving en mass and started building an economy that provided Arabs jobs.
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#129 DonLever

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

Debatable. Did you know, the "Palestinian Arabs" never referred to themselves as such until 1967? There was never an Arab nation of Palestine...the world Palestine was implemented by the Romans to refer to the inhabitants of a backwater province, which at that time were almost entirely Jewish. Ever watched the 1960 movie "Exodus" about the formation of Israel? The Palestinians referred to in that movie were actually Jewish settlers. Before the formation of Israel the area of Palestine was a backwater with tiny populations of Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians. Arab migration to the area only took off when zionists began arriving en mass and started building an economy that provided Arabs jobs.


It is highly inflammatory to say the area of Palestine was a backwater with tiny populations of Arabs. How about backing it up with facts? From what I undertand, Arabs formed the MAJORITY of the population in that area.

This is the same argument that the white South Africans used in arpartheid in denying the role of blacks. They said South africa was empty before the whites came.

BTW, if look at old maps, the area was labelled Palestine. So how can you say there was no Arab nation of Palestine?

Edited by DonLever, 03 December 2012 - 10:15 PM.

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#130 Common sense

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

Something you learned in Sunday School?


Nope, but nice try, kid.
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#131 Common sense

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

BTW, if look at old maps, the area was labelled Palestine. So how can you say there was no Arab nation of Palestine?


because geopolitically, an area is different than a nation. Until several days ago, the area would still be Palestinian, but the nation was Israel.
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#132 taxi

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:43 PM

BTW, if look at old maps, the area was labelled Palestine.  So how can you say there was no Arab nation of Palestine?


No such maps exist. The area was called Palestina by the Romans, because it resembled the Philistines, who were a nation of Greeks that the Israelis had war with in the 11th Century BC. The British named the area of Israel, Jordan, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank the Mandate of Palestine in 1917. Under the Ottoman Empire, the area was part of the province of Syria, it was subdivided into the Malmuk of Jerusalem. It was never called Palestine.
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#133 Coda

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

It is highly inflammatory to say the area of Palestine was a backwater with tiny populations of Arabs. How about backing it up with facts? From what I undertand, Arabs formed the MAJORITY of the population in that area.


Certainly: the majority of a relatively small population, perhaps a total population of 350,000 in 1850.



This is the same argument that the white South Africans used in arpartheid in denying the role of blacks. They said South africa was empty before the whites came.


A slightly different situation though isn't it, considering the Jews actually have a much longer history in the region of Palestine than the Arabs do, with a continuous presence of over 3000 years.

BTW, if look at old maps, the area was labelled Palestine. So how can you say there was no Arab nation of Palestine?


Palestine is a geographical area, not a nation.

A few questions I'm interested in your answer to:


There Was Never A Country Called Palestine

If you consider Palestine to be a "Sovereign" and "Independent" country that goes back through most of recorded history as many would have you to believe, then a few questions need to be answered:


  • When was it founded and by whom?

  • What were its borders?

  • What was its capital?

  • Who was the President?

  • What was its form of government?

  • What were its major cities?

  • What constituted the basis of its economy?

  • Who was the Palestinian leader before Yasser Arafat?

  • Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

  • What was the language of the country of Palestine?

  • What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?

  • What was the name of its currency and what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, or Japanese yen on any particular date?

  • And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?
If these so-called "Palestinians" are anything but a generic collection of Arabs from all over the rest of the Arab world and if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, then why did they never try to become an independent and sovereign nation until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War in 1967?


Edited by Coda, 03 December 2012 - 10:55 PM.

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#134 DonLever

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:22 PM

No such maps exist. The area was called Palestina by the Romans, because it resembled the Philistines, who were a nation of Greeks that the Israelis had war with in the 11th Century BC. The British named the area of Israel, Jordan, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank the Mandate of Palestine in 1917. Under the Ottoman Empire, the area was part of the province of Syria, it was subdivided into the Malmuk of Jerusalem. It was never called Palestine.


That is not true. I went to school in Vancouver in the 1960's we had a world map in our classroom and that area was clearly labelled Palestine. Coda was good in explaining that area was geographically known as Palestine. And that probably explains it. I suppose it is the same as maps with Antarctica on it and Antarctica is not a country.

So for you to say straight out that no such maps exist show how wrong you are.

Edited by DonLever, 03 December 2012 - 11:30 PM.

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#135 Tearloch7

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:40 AM

Nope, but nice try, kid.


I am sure I have a sweat shirt older than you .. and brighter, too .. it is a vivid fluorescent yellow from 1964 ..
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#136 Pouria

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:35 AM

Support for Israel is fading. Soon it is just gong to be America and America alone in their pocket.


Canada is kissing Israel's ass pretty good. They probably bend their knees for Israel faster than America. Even the Obama administration expressed their opposition against Israel's actions while Canada said nothing.
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#137 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:39 AM

Debatable. Did you know, the "Palestinian Arabs" never referred to themselves as such until 1967? There was never an Arab nation of Palestine...the world Palestine was implemented by the Romans to refer to the inhabitants of a backwater province, which at that time were almost entirely Jewish. Ever watched the 1960 movie "Exodus" about the formation of Israel? The Palestinians referred to in that movie were actually Jewish settlers. Before the formation of Israel the area of Palestine was a backwater with tiny populations of Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians. Arab migration to the area only took off when zionists began arriving en mass and started building an economy that provided Arabs jobs.


STUDY GUIDE : International Law & Israel


Relevant International Laws: Full Text


Relevant Major Legal Principles of International Law


Relevant International Law: Application & Enforcement


Israeli Violations


Israeli Violations of International Law - (3) Israel settles Israeli citizens on occupied Palestinian land (laws & principles violated, international response).

ISRAELI VIOLATION: HISTORY & THEORY


Soon after occupying Palestinian territories following the 1967 war, the Israeli government began expropriating land from Palestinian land-owners and building Israeli civilian settlements on those lands.
They then offered financial incentives such as tax breaks to Israeli citizens and Jewish immigrants to Israel to move to those settlements to live. In addition, many Israeli businesses moved to those settlements as well.
The Israeli government then passed all sorts of laws legally linking those settlements to the State of Israel thus creating a de facto annexation of those Palestinian lands to the State of Israel which itself is illegal.
The Israeli government claimed that the settlements were temporary and only built for security purposes, but from the quality of their planning and construction it is obvious these settlements are meant to be permanent. They also appear to serve many other clearly illegal purposes in Israel's plans for the Palestinian occupied territories:
  • (1) Their permanence suggests that they are meant to establish "facts on the ground" making it much harder to contemplate returning those areas to Palestinian control. This is a tactic that the Zionists have been using since the early 1900's in their struggles then against British Mandate efforts to be fair to Arab concerns and thus control Jewish immigration;
  • (2) Their placement in the occupied areas suggests their use to help isolate and then halt the growth of the Palestinian areas;
  • (3) Their placement around Jerusalem suggests their use to help secure the annexation of East Jerusalem;
  • (4) Their placement in the West Bank gives control over the water resources and the most fertile farmlands to Israel;
  • (5) Their placement in the West Bank makes establishment of a viable Palestinian State increasingly undoable.
The establishment of Israeli civilian settlements in the Palestinian occupied territories is a clear violation of international law, and has been repeatedly condemned by the international community.
In addition, their placement around Palestinian population centers choking them clearly violates Palestinian human rights and inalienable right of self-determination.
The special legal status Israel has given them linking them to Israel and thus creating de facto annexation of those areas of the occupied territories is also illegal.

ISRAELI VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW

  • Major Legal Principle Violated -
    • 3. It is Illegal for Occupant to move Significant Numbers of its own Population Onto Occupied Enemy Lands.
  • As Per International Law -
    • Geneva Conventions (1949), article 49(6) (full text) (specific articles - see below).
    • Geneva Conventions (Protocol I) (1977), article 85(4a) (full text) (specific articles - see below) defines the occupying forces importing their own population into the occupied territories as a "grave breach" of international law.
  • International Response -
    • United Nations -
    • UN Resolutions (under construction)
    • International Court of Justice - 2003 ruling on wall reaffirms that Israeli civilian settlements on occupied Palestinian land are illegal according to International Law.
  • International Miscellaneous response -
  • Academic Analysis -

RELEVANT QUOTES FROM TEXT


  • Geneva Conventions IV (1949), article 49(6): Article 49(6). The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. .
  • Geneva Conventions (Protocol I) (1977), article 85(4a): Article 85. Repression of breaches of this Protocol
  • 4. In addition to the grave breaches defined in the preceding paragraphs and in the Conventions, the following shall be regarded as grave breaches of this Protocol, when committed wilfully and in violation of the Conventions or the Protocol:
  • (a) the transfer by the occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory, in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Convention;
[/list][/list]

REFERENCES




Any comments, suggestions, or questons are most welcomed. Please contact us at info@israellawresourcecenter.org

© Israel Law Resource Center, February, 2007.


I reiterate, Israel has continuously stolen land from the palestinain inhabatants who were already living there , and your effort to obfuscate the truth of this matter will not change that fact .


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"These are the things to keep in mind. These are not just academic exercises. We're not analyzing the media on Mars or in the eighteenth century or something like that. We're dealing with real human beings who are suffering and dying and being tortured and starving because of policies that we are involved in, we as citizens of democratic societies are directly involved in and are responsible for, and what the media are doing is ensuring that we do not act on our responsibilities, and that the interests of power are served, not the needs of the suffering people, and not even the needs of the American people who would be horrified if they realized the blood that's dripping from their hands because of the way they are allowing themselves to be deluded and manipulated by the system."
Noam Chomsky

Jesus didn’t say yes to everyone. I mean Jesus knew that there was a place for everything and it is not necessarily everyone’s place to come to Australia
Tony Abbott......Current Australian PM

#138 Pouria

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:42 AM

Nope, but nice try, kid.


How do you know he is a kid? He could be older than your grandfather.
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#139 Pouria

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

No such maps exist. The area was called Palestina by the Romans, because it resembled the Philistines, who were a nation of Greeks that the Israelis had war with in the 11th Century BC. The British named the area of Israel, Jordan, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank the Mandate of Palestine in 1917. Under the Ottoman Empire, the area was part of the province of Syria, it was subdivided into the Malmuk of Jerusalem. It was never called Palestine.


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I guess the holocaust was also a hoax too and it never existed.
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#140 Common sense

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:01 AM

How do you know he is a kid? He could be older than your grandfather.


The quality of the posts tells me so.
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#141 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:16 AM

The quality of the posts tells me so.


Well your signature, and your +1 this post , speaks volumes about your character .
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"These are the things to keep in mind. These are not just academic exercises. We're not analyzing the media on Mars or in the eighteenth century or something like that. We're dealing with real human beings who are suffering and dying and being tortured and starving because of policies that we are involved in, we as citizens of democratic societies are directly involved in and are responsible for, and what the media are doing is ensuring that we do not act on our responsibilities, and that the interests of power are served, not the needs of the suffering people, and not even the needs of the American people who would be horrified if they realized the blood that's dripping from their hands because of the way they are allowing themselves to be deluded and manipulated by the system."
Noam Chomsky

Jesus didn’t say yes to everyone. I mean Jesus knew that there was a place for everything and it is not necessarily everyone’s place to come to Australia
Tony Abbott......Current Australian PM

#142 taxi

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:50 AM

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I guess the holocaust was also a hoax too and it never existed.


Bwahahaha.

They had MS Paint in the 16th Century Ottoman Empire? That truly is shocking.

The question was whether maps existed showing the area was called Palestine prior to the British Mandate in 1917. All of those maps, except one, were clearly made using MS Paint in the late 90s. The only exception is the second last one. That is a map of the midwest of the USA. There are 12 towns named Palestine in the USA. There is also a town in Iowa called Sheldahl, which can clearly be seen at the bottom left hand corner of the map.
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#143 Tearloch7

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:59 PM

"History consists of nothing more than the lies we tell ourselves to justify the present" ..

: from the Book of Forbidden Knowledge, Odwin Innist, condemned scholar, Malazan Empire
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#144 key2thecup

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

So is this thread like every other Israel related thread?

Majority questioning the political/military moves of Israel being met with fierce resistance of CDC's own mini-ADL consisting of Taxi and Special Ed?
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#145 The Wizard of AZ

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:17 PM

So is this thread like every other Israel related thread?

Majority questioning the political/military moves of Israel being met with fierce resistance of CDC's own mini-ADL consisting of Taxi and Special Ed?


Oh shi-.

You don't know man, you weren't there.
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#146 taxi

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

So is this thread like every other Israel related thread?

Majority questioning the political/military moves of Israel being met with fierce resistance of CDC's own mini-ADL consisting of Taxi and Special Ed?


Don't know if you've noticed but the majority of the Pro-Palestinian posts are coming from a select few posters too. I'm guessing the "majority" don't give a @#$#@.
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#147 Pouria

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:31 PM

Bwahahaha.

They had MS Paint in the 16th Century Ottoman Empire? That truly is shocking.

The question was whether maps existed showing the area was called Palestine prior to the British Mandate in 1917. All of those maps, except one, were clearly made using MS Paint in the late 90s. The only exception is the second last one. That is a map of the midwest of the USA. There are 12 towns named Palestine in the USA. There is also a town in Iowa called Sheldahl, which can clearly be seen at the bottom left hand corner of the map.


Well, Palestine is officially a recognized state now by the UN so all of this is just moot point.
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#148 taxi

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:39 PM

Well, Palestine is officially a recognized state now by the UN so all of this is just moot point.


The vast majority of nations have recognized Palestine for quite some time. The UN has no authority to create a state. States come into being when they declare sovereignty and other nations recognize them. Currently 106 nations have fulll relations with Palestine and 37 nations do not recognize Palestine:

http://en.wikipedia....ns_of_Palestine

The state of Palestine exists, it just doesn't have sovereignty over any specific land yet. This is the big issue right now. Who ends up with what. My proposition has always been Israel keeps land around Jeruslaem and Tel Aviv, to protect their 2 biggest cities. Palestine is compensated by land in the North with high Arab populations.
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