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Afghan girl beheaded after refusing manís marriage proposal


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#31 Pouria

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:07 PM

Kindly point out where in Islam does it state that one can behead a woman who refuses a marriage proposal.


Its people's way of reacting to these stories and instantly looking to one thing to blame without researching it first. Some parts of the world are less civilized than other parts and the root of any differences would be based on culture and not necessarily religion.
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#32 Lancaster

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:20 PM

There are variations of Islam and culture that you can't really say it is standard throughout the whole Muslim world. For example, a Muslim country might strictly enforce women to wear veils, masks and cover themselves up from head to toe while another country might only enforce them to only wear a head gear. Some Muslim countries are less conservative and more civilized than other countries. In Dubai, an Arab country full of Muslims has night clubs and beaches where women can wear bikinis and not worry about covering up or drink alcohol.


I guess we're in agreement.
I was using Turkey as an example of a secular, liberal country with Islam being the primary religion. The success of Turkey and other countries like Dubai you mentioned, is due to the fact they wish to emulate the West and have a fair law in place.

I am reminded of a quote I heard on talk radio years back, something along the lines of, "The reason of the West is 'ahead' is thatwe're talking about going back to the Moon, visiting Mars, and not talking about the 'glory days' of flying around on a magic carpet."
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#33 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:45 PM

I guess we're in agreement.
I was using Turkey as an example of a secular, liberal country with Islam being the primary religion. The success of Turkey and other countries like Dubai you mentioned, is due to the fact they wish to emulate the West and have a fair law in place.

I am reminded of a quote I heard on talk radio years back, something along the lines of, "The reason of the West is 'ahead' is thatwe're talking about going back to the Moon, visiting Mars, and not talking about the 'glory days' of flying around on a magic carpet."


Starting with the crusades , we here in the west have always been the aggressors , it has always been us travelling to their part of the world and Fracking with them .
Take my own country for example , our first foray into the world as a nation was when when a bunch of young aussies were sent to invade turkey , a country who had never messed with us in anyway , and ever since young aussies have been dying on middle eastern beaches , on which we had/have no right to be on .

At no time in history have the arabic tribes invaded what i would call a modern western nation , with maybe the exception of spain , which was over a millenia ago .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

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#34 DarthNinja

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

I guess we're in agreement.
I was using Turkey as an example of a secular, liberal country with Islam being the primary religion. The success of Turkey and other countries like Dubai you mentioned, is due to the fact they wish to emulate the West and have a fair law in place.

I am reminded of a quote I heard on talk radio years back, something along the lines of, "The reason of the West is 'ahead' is thatwe're talking about going back to the Moon, visiting Mars, and not talking about the 'glory days' of flying around on a magic carpet."


One can also argue the reason the West is 'ahead' is simply due to economics, capitalism and the banking establishments that have exploited much of the rest of the world's resources and governments through IMF and World Bank ownership (i.e. 'loans') and of course through the exploitation of their own people through the central banking system.

Excelling economically is simply not viable for much of the Muslim world at this time due to the massive levels of corruption and internal exploitation of resources and wealth by the leaders...who are, for the most part, friends and allies of the West at the expense of their own populations. The Saudi government is holding TRILLIONS of $ within US banks, investments and assets. How do you imagine this would change things if this wealth was given to its rightful recipients - i.e. the people?

Furthermore, while robots are landing on Mars with the price tag in the billions, there are millions of people in the West living in complete poverty, losing their homes, living on the streets and living hungry. Seems to me like priorities are a little askew.
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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

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#35 taxi

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

Starting with the crusades , we here in the west have always been the aggressors , it has always been us travelling to their part of the world and Fracking with them .
Take my own country for example , our first foray into the world as a nation was when when a bunch of young aussies were sent to invade turkey , a country who had never messed with us in anyway , and ever since young aussies have been dying on middle eastern beaches , on which we had/have no right to be on .

At no time in history have the arabic tribes invaded what i would call a modern western nation , with maybe the exception of spain , which was over a millenia ago .



Not true. The Ottoman Empire expanded rapidly into Europe until the Battle of Vienna, which took place in 1683. Greece was not independent from the Ottomans until the 1820s. The Ottoman Empire tried to invade the Balkans and Greece again in the Balkan wars of 1912-1913. The Ottoman Empire then joined forces with Germany in WWI in an attempt to invade again.

The Arab states have never invaded a Western nation, but they have only existed sicne about 1945. Prior to that they were all part of the Ottoman Empire, which was very very expansive. Prior to the Ottoman Empire, several muslim nations had invaded Europe. The Crusades themselves were attempts to retake territory that had been invaded by muslims. They weren't just randomly entering foreign land.
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#36 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

Not true. The Ottoman Empire expanded rapidly into Europe until the Battle of Vienna, which took place in 1683. Greece was not independent from the Ottomans until the 1820s. The Ottoman Empire tried to invade the Balkans and Greece again in the Balkan wars of 1912-1913. The Ottoman Empire then joined forces with Germany in WWI in an attempt to invade again.

The Arab states have never invaded a Western nation, but they have only existed sicne about 1945. Prior to that they were all part of the Ottoman Empire, which was very very expansive. Prior to the Ottoman Empire, several muslim nations had invaded Europe. The Crusades themselves were attempts to retake territory that had been invaded by muslims. They weren't just randomly entering foreign land.


True .

Greece and the balkans are not , and never have been western nations .

And the parts of Europe that Ottomans invaded could not be described as modern western nations , which was the criteria i laid down .
As usual you have got your facts wrong in an attempt to discredit me .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#37 DarthNinja

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:20 PM

True .

Greece and the balkans are not , and never have been western nations .

And the parts of Europe that Ottomans invaded could not be described as modern western nations , which was the criteria i laid down .
As usual you have got your facts wrong in an attempt to discredit me .


Not to mention that the primary focal point for the crusades was Jerusalem and the holy land.
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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

11477626583_2368927097.jpg     49997_b70e6ae14ce1652fa11bd1dda624afd1.g   7649118508_ce3e8a74a1_o.jpg

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#38 surtur

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

There's a pretty simple one-word answer but some people would get offended.

i think it has to do with some are forced to change (multicultural societies such as Canada)
and some refuse to change to keep there identity.
who is wrong and who is right i can not judge i can only have an opinion.
me i am pro equality of all humans.......but also a believer in survival of the fittest...odd eh.
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#39 Taelin

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:34 AM

The Crusades themselves were attempts to retake territory that had been invaded by muslims. They weren't just randomly entering foreign land.


I don't even....

:picard: :picard: :picard:

The slaughtering of millions...
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#40 Lancaster

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:10 AM

One can also argue the reason the West is 'ahead' is simply due to economics, capitalism and the banking establishments that have exploited much of the rest of the world's resources and governments through IMF and World Bank ownership (i.e. 'loans') and of course through the exploitation of their own people through the central banking system.

Excelling economically is simply not viable for much of the Muslim world at this time due to the massive levels of corruption and internal exploitation of resources and wealth by the leaders...who are, for the most part, friends and allies of the West at the expense of their own populations. The Saudi government is holding TRILLIONS of $ within US banks, investments and assets. How do you imagine this would change things if this wealth was given to its rightful recipients - i.e. the people?

Furthermore, while robots are landing on Mars with the price tag in the billions, there are millions of people in the West living in complete poverty, losing their homes, living on the streets and living hungry. Seems to me like priorities are a little askew.


The Muslim world had all the knowledge and technology of the Roman Empire plus whatever other places they had contact with, eg. Indians, Chinese, etc. This all during a time when the Western world thought the Earth was flat, leeches/bloodletting was the cure for diseases and the average person had the vocabulary of "durr durr....?"

Whether you say it's due to the philosophies you disagree with, the Western world has advanced whereas the Muslim world still revolving their lives around an old book and some rock from who knows where.


It's true the Middle East has tons of natural resources and have earned lots of money, but their mentality is still stuck in the 15th century. They have dictators and autocratic monarchs in charge, with all the money earn giving to them and their cronies and the majority of people still living in poverty.
I'm not saying the West is perfect, but it's still way better. Blame the Big Banks, Big Oil, Big Tobacco, or whatever the next Big Fad is.... but the average person living here can receive a decent education, get a decent job and live a decent life.
Plus, it's a fact that the "poor" here are pretty much better than half the population of the rest of the world.

True .

Greece and the balkans are not , and never have been western nations .

And the parts of Europe that Ottomans invaded could not be described as modern western nations , which was the criteria i laid down .
As usual you have got your facts wrong in an attempt to discredit me .


Greece and the Balkans were part of the Byzantine (Roman) Empire prior to being conquered by the Ottoman. As modern as any part of Western Europe at the time.

Portugal and Spain were taken by the Moors until the Reconquistas around the 13th/14th century. Plus various invasions/raids by Muslims forces across the Mediterranean during the Middle Ages up until about 250 years ago.

It's true the Muslim world haven't invaded the modern Western world, but it's based more on their lack of ability than anything.

I don't even....

:picard: :picard: :picard:

The slaughtering of millions...


For 2000 years the area of Palestine was controlled by the Romans / Byzantines, so Christian folks. The Crusade was an attempt to reclaim the land back from the Arabs and Seljuk Turks that overran the area.

Not saying the Crusades turning Jerusalem in a river of blood was the right to do, but the whole military expedition wasn't a bunch of White Christians sitting around sudden saying "Oh hey, lets go invade the Middle East. Why? Why not!"
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#41 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:58 AM

quote
Greece and the Balkans were part of the Byzantine (Roman) Empire prior to being conquered by the Ottoman. As modern as any part of Western Europe at the time.

Portugal and Spain were taken by the Moors until the Reconquistas around the 13th/14th century. Plus various invasions/raids by Muslims forces across the Mediterranean during the Middle Ages up until about 250 years ago.

It's true the Muslim world haven't invaded the modern Western world, but it's based more on their lack of ability than anything.


Wether greece and the balkans were as modern as any part of western europe has no bearing on them being considered western nations .

As i stated in my original post i was willing to concede that spain , may be considered a western nation by some and that muslims forces had invaded parts of it .

And your last statement lacks any sort of credibility , and illustrates that you cannot discuss this issue in a logical and reasonable way.

quote
For 2000 years the area of Palestine was controlled by the Romans / Byzantines, so Christian folks. The Crusade was an attempt to reclaim the land back from the Arabs and Seljuk Turks that overran the area.

Not saying the Crusades turning Jerusalem in a river of blood was the right to do, but the whole military expedition wasn't a bunch of White Christians sitting around sudden saying "Oh hey, lets go invade the Middle East. Why? Why not!"

Oh yes it was

Pope Urban II orders first Crusade

















1





On November 27, 1095, Pope Urban II makes perhaps the most influential speech of the Middle Ages, giving rise to the Crusades by calling all Christians in Europe to war against Muslims in order to reclaim the Holy Land, with a cry of "Deus vult!" or "God wills it!"
Born Odo of Lagery in 1042, Urban was a protege of the great reformer Pope Gregory VII. Like Gregory, he made internal reform his main focus, railing against simony (the selling of church offices) and other clerical abuses prevalent during the Middle Ages. Urban showed himself to be an adept and powerful cleric, and when he was elected pope in 1088, he applied his statecraft to weakening support for his rivals, notably Clement III.
By the end of the 11th century, the Holy Land—the area now commonly referred to as the Middle East—had become a point of conflict for European Christians. Since the 6th century, Christians frequently made pilgrimages to the birthplace of their religion, but when the Seljuk Turks took control of Jerusalem, Christians were barred from the Holy City. When the Turks then threatened to invade the Byzantine Empire and take Constantinople, Byzantine Emperor Alexius I made a special appeal to Urban for help. This was not the first appeal of its kind, but it came at an important time for Urban. Wanting to reinforce the power of the papacy, Urban seized the opportunity to unite Christian Europe under him as he fought to take back the Holy Land from the Turks.
At the Council of Clermont, in France, at which several hundred clerics and noblemen gathered, Urban delivered a rousing speech summoning rich and poor alike to stop their in-fighting and embark on a righteous war to help their fellow Christians in the East and take back Jerusalem. Urban denigrated the Muslims, exaggerating stories of their anti-Christian acts, and promised absolution and remission of sins for all who died in the service of Christ.
Urban's war cry caught fire, mobilizing clerics to drum up support throughout Europe for the crusade against the Muslims. All told, between 60,000 and 100,000 people responded to Urban's call to march on Jerusalem. Not all who responded did so out of piety: European nobles were tempted by the prospect of increased land holdings and riches to be gained from the conquest. These nobles were responsible for the death of a great many innocents both on the way to and in the Holy Land, absorbing the riches and estates of those they conveniently deemed opponents to their cause. Adding to the death toll was the inexperience and lack of discipline of the Christian peasants against the trained, professional armies of the Muslims. As a result, the Christians were initially beaten back, and only through sheer force of numbers were they eventually able to triumph.
Urban died in 1099, two weeks after the fall of Jerusalem but before news of the Christian victory made it back to Europe. His was the first of seven major military campaigns fought over the next two centuries known as the Crusades, the bloody repercussions of which are still felt today. Urban was beatified by the Roman Catholic Church in 1881.

I find it hilarious that the god of abraham has told so many different people that the "holy land " is theirs

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 04 December 2012 - 02:07 AM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#42 hockeyfan87

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:41 AM

This is ridiculous. Is modern day Austria not considered a western nation when it is convenient to the narrative?
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#43 Lancaster

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

Spoiler


At the time of the invasion of Greece and the Balkan, they were "western countries". In present time, we consider them as Eastern/Southern European nations, but not during the 1400th.

Technologically, economically and socially, the Muslim nations stagnated after the 16th century. Ever noticed how the Ottoman Empire was known as the "Sick man of Europe" or that North Africa was easily colonized by Western Europeans? They couldn't keep up with the progress of the west, thus they couldn't attack Europe if they wanted to. The various Muslim powers weren't a bunch of pacifist or anything either, they still kept warring among themselves.


The Crusade was called by the Pope because the Byzantine Emperor asked for help to reclaim lands they lost which they have controlled for 2000 years. I dunno how you can claim that was random. In this case, the Byzantines were there FIRST! Way before the Muslim armies came and took over.


To get back on topic....

I don't agree with Bill Mahar politically, but I do for this:
http://youtu.be/7ipp-l_32M8

*Some coarse language in the video

Edited by Lancaster, 04 December 2012 - 05:31 PM.

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#44 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:16 PM

[/spoiler]

At the time of the invasion of Greece and the Balkan, they were "western countries". In present time, we consider them as Eastern/Southern European nations, but not during the 1400th.

Technologically, economically and socially, the Muslim nations stagnated after the 16th century. Ever noticed how the Ottoman Empire was known as the "Sick man of Europe" or that North Africa was easily colonized by Western Europeans? They couldn't keep up with the progress of the west, thus they couldn't attack Europe if they wanted to. The various Muslim powers weren't a bunch of pacifist or anything either, they still kept warring among themselves.


The Crusade was called by the Pope because the Byzantine Emperor asked for help to reclaim lands they lost which they have controlled for 2000 years. I dunno how you can claim that was random. In this case, the Byzantines were there FIRST! Way before the Muslim armies came and took over.


To get back on topic....

I don't agree with Bill Mahar politically, but I do for this:
http://youtu.be/7ipp-l_32M8

*Some coarse language in the video


My exact words were a modern western nation , so even if you want to bend the facts to suit your argument , what they were considered in the 14th century is irrelvant to what i stated .
And even then this was the ottoman empire that invaded greece and the balkans , what i stated was the the ARABIC TRIBES had never invaded what is i consider a modern western nation , and the ottoman empire subjugated the arabic tribes .


I did not use the word random , you stated, but the whole military expedition wasn't a bunch of White Christians sitting around sudden saying "Oh hey, lets go invade the Middle East, and as i pointed out it was a a bunch of WHITE CHRISTIANS , that decided to invade the "holy land" Because according to pope urban II "god wills it".
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#45 Lancaster

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:49 AM

My exact words were a modern western nation , so even if you want to bend the facts to suit your argument , what they were considered in the 14th century is irrelvant to what i stated .
And even then this was the ottoman empire that invaded greece and the balkans , what i stated was the the ARABIC TRIBES had never invaded what is i consider a modern western nation , and the ottoman empire subjugated the arabic tribes .


I did not use the word random , you stated, but the whole military expedition wasn't a bunch of White Christians sitting around sudden saying "Oh hey, lets go invade the Middle East, and as i pointed out it was a a bunch of WHITE CHRISTIANS , that decided to invade the "holy land" Because according to pope urban II "god wills it".


I don't bend facts, I'm just stating them. You were saying how only the West were the aggressors, I just proved otherwise. I am lumping all the Christendom together because during the times of Muslim aggression, there was no East/West difference in Europe really. You are just applying the modern "Iron Curtain" description of what's "West" to suit your theory. You're also separating the Arabs from Arabia from other Muslims as to say technically the "Arabs from Arabia" never attacked any Western nations.... so Arabs conquering and converting many ethnic groups, some which later on attacked European settlements wouldn't count?

Throughout history, the Muslims did attack Europe. Not only just parts of Spain and Portugal, but nearly the entire Iberian Peninsula, Sicily was conquered too with constant raiding of Italy. Defeating the Visigoths and Vandals of North Africa. The Ottoman finished off the Christian empire of Byzantium, conquered the entire Balkan, Hungary, Southern Ukraine, and all the way to Austria. All that aggression by Muslims against the Christendom, and you're saying how it's only be the West that has been messing with the Middle East. The West apparently being only France, UK and Germany or whatever countries you want to include to suit your perspective.

As for the last part, well obviously it's a bunch of White Christians, but you seem to have trouble understanding the point I'm trying to get across. They weren't just attacking for the sake of attacking. The initial goal is to RECLAIM the Holy Land, meaning it belonged to the Christians prior to the Muslims, meaning there was a legitimate purpose.
The only way the Byzantines would get help is if it's under the guise of a Holy War. How else were they gonna recruit people to walk across Europe to fight?
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#46 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:29 AM

Instead of dropping bombs on them and wiping them out. How about educating them? Might just be crazy enough to work. Bombing the crap out of them sure hasn't worked. Would probably take a few generations though. That kind of stupidity has to be bred out.

This problem is multi-faceted.

The cultural backlash against the west spurs from generations of western intervention in their countries. It was the basis and invitation for 9/11.

One cannot merely "educate" Muslims. The best area I've seen where Muslims in MENA have flourished is where global free trade exists and access to technology is abundant. While they now have obvious barriers to try and limit what they see on the internet, access to prevalent global communication exposes them to other people and now they don't solely have crazy Sheikh's, Imams, and Mullahs being the only people putting crap in their heads. Trade, and not pillaging and plundering and screwing with people, is the one true way you respect someone's existence and boundaries. It also opens them up to new ideas, thus evolving.

Edited by zaibatsu, 05 December 2012 - 04:34 AM.

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#47 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

I don't bend facts, I'm just stating them. You were saying how only the West were the aggressors, I just proved otherwise. I am lumping all the Christendom together because during the times of Muslim aggression, there was no East/West difference in Europe really. You are just applying the modern "Iron Curtain" description of what's "West" to suit your theory. You're also separating the Arabs from Arabia from other Muslims as to say technically the "Arabs from Arabia" never attacked any Western nations.... so Arabs conquering and converting many ethnic groups, some which later on attacked European settlements wouldn't count?

Throughout history, the Muslims did attack Europe. Not only just parts of Spain and Portugal, but nearly the entire Iberian Peninsula, Sicily was conquered too with constant raiding of Italy. Defeating the Visigoths and Vandals of North Africa. The Ottoman finished off the Christian empire of Byzantium, conquered the entire Balkan, Hungary, Southern Ukraine, and all the way to Austria. All that aggression by Muslims against the Christendom, and you're saying how it's only be the West that has been messing with the Middle East. The West apparently being only France, UK and Germany or whatever countries you want to include to suit your perspective.

As for the last part, well obviously it's a bunch of White Christians, but you seem to have trouble understanding the point I'm trying to get across. They weren't just attacking for the sake of attacking. The initial goal is to RECLAIM the Holy Land, meaning it belonged to the Christians prior to the Muslims, meaning there was a legitimate purpose.
The only way the Byzantines would get help is if it's under the guise of a Holy War. How else were they gonna recruit people to walk across Europe to fight?


You seem to be having a problem comprehending what i said , so i will make it as simple as i can so that hopefully you will understand , The ARABIC TRIBES HAVE NEVER INVADED WHAT I WOULD CALL A MODERN WESTERN NATION .

This is not a theory this is a fact ,

Another fact is that , THE ARABIC TRIBES WERE NOT THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE , THEY WERE SUBJUGATED BY THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE .

And beginning with the crusades , nations such as england and france have sent soldiers to the to the middle east ,killing , raping , and destroying cities .

In the 20th century modern western nations tried their best to exploit the valuable natural resource of the area , oil , by any means possible .

In the 21st century , we had the "coalition of the willing" , invading Iraq on the pretext of finding weapons of mass destruction , which has since been exposed for the BS it was .

Not once in history have members of the arabic tribes invaded countries like britian , france , america , and countries like australia and canada blindly follow america and invade countries like , Iraq and afghanistan , cuasing vast amounts of pain and suffering to the people who are living in those countries .

This made me laugh my arse off , meaning it belonged to the Christians prior to the Muslims, meaning there was a legitimate purpose .

The area of the middle east that was called palestine and is now occupied by both palestinians and israeli's never belonged to christians , jesus may have been born there but he was a jew , are you going to tell me that this gives british and french christian knights the right to invade , and rape , kill and destroy cities just because pope urban II wanted to reinforce the power of the papacy and unite christian europe under him .

people like you are why we keep on making the same mistakes over and over agian .
you are not willing to admit that we did something wrong , you rationalise and validate what has happened to suit what you believe.
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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

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#48 Lancaster

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:53 PM

You seem to be having a problem comprehending what i said , so i will make it as simple as i can so that hopefully you will understand , The ARABIC TRIBES HAVE NEVER INVADED WHAT I WOULD CALL A MODERN WESTERN NATION .

This is not a theory this is a fact ,

Another fact is that , THE ARABIC TRIBES WERE NOT THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE , THEY WERE SUBJUGATED BY THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE .

And beginning with the crusades , nations such as england and france have sent soldiers to the to the middle east ,killing , raping , and destroying cities .

In the 20th century modern western nations tried their best to exploit the valuable natural resource of the area , oil , by any means possible .

In the 21st century , we had the "coalition of the willing" , invading Iraq on the pretext of finding weapons of mass destruction , which has since been exposed for the BS it was .

Not once in history have members of the arabic tribes invaded countries like britian , france , america , and countries like australia and canada blindly follow america and invade countries like , Iraq and afghanistan , cuasing vast amounts of pain and suffering to the people who are living in those countries .

This made me laugh my arse off , meaning it belonged to the Christians prior to the Muslims, meaning there was a legitimate purpose .

The area of the middle east that was called palestine and is now occupied by both palestinians and israeli's never belonged to christians , jesus may have been born there but he was a jew , are you going to tell me that this gives british and french christian knights the right to invade , and rape , kill and destroy cities just because pope urban II wanted to reinforce the power of the papacy and unite christian europe under him .

people like you are why we keep on making the same mistakes over and over agian .
you are not willing to admit that we did something wrong , you rationalise and validate what has happened to suit what you believe.


So, I guess we should start splitting hairs now. Technically speaking, it were mostly the Normans, Franks, and Saxons who composed of the majority of the Crusades, so I guess present day France, Germany and Britain had no part of it then, right?

I will give you kudos for knowing that the Ottoman were not Arabs, since the Ottoman were actually Turks. After Hijra, Muhammad conquered Arabia, his successors carved an empire stretching from the Pyrenees to the borders of India and China. Many ethnic groups were converted religionously and partially culturally.... groups such as: the Seljuk, Rum and some other group you might have heard of... the Ottoman. The Ottoman rosed to prominence and continued on their conquest, expanding all the way to Austria. So yes, the Arabs did attack Western Europe and their sucessors also attacked Western Europe.

As for the Levant, prior to Islam, guess who controlled the area for about 2000 years? What's their name again.... hmmm.....? Oh yes, Romans! Where they originally from? Present day Italy, which is in Europe. What religion did they follow officially during the reign of Constantine and there forth? Hey again, it's Christianity. Why? Because Islam didn't exist and the Jews weren't there anymore.
Once the Arabs invaded Palestine (which previously belonged to the Eastern Romans / Byzantines), guess who showed up to help? The Crusades from the rest of Europe.
Now, were their other political reasons and circumstances beside goodwill? Of course. But you portraying the Muslims as just a bunch of peace loving, hookah smoking hippies who has only been on the receiving end of aggression from the West can't be further from the truth.

The reason I don't "admit" anything was "wrong", it's because of the context. If anything those people were victims of their time, nothing more.
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#49 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:30 AM

I am not splitting hairs , just stating FACTS that you continually ignore .

So, I guess we should start splitting hairs now. Technically speaking, it were mostly the Normans, Franks, and Saxons who composed of the majority of the Crusades, so I guess present day France, Germany and Britain had no part of it then, right?

I will give you kudos for knowing that the Ottoman were not Arabs, since the Ottoman were actually Turks. After Hijra, Muhammad conquered Arabia, his successors carved an empire stretching from the Pyrenees to the borders of India and China. Many ethnic groups were converted religionously and partially culturally.... groups such as: the Seljuk, Rum and some other group you might have heard of... the Ottoman. The Ottoman rosed to prominence and continued on their conquest, expanding all the way to Austria. So yes, the Arabs did attack Western Europe and their sucessors also attacked Western Europe.

As for the Levant, prior to Islam, guess who controlled the area for about 2000 years? What's their name again.... hmmm.....? Oh yes, Romans! Where they originally from? Present day Italy, which is in Europe. What religion did they follow officially during the reign of Constantine and there forth? Hey again, it's Christianity. Why? Because Islam didn't exist and the Jews weren't there anymore.
Once the Arabs invaded Palestine (which previously belonged to the Eastern Romans / Byzantines), guess who showed up to help? The Crusades from the rest of Europe.
Now, were their other political reasons and circumstances beside goodwill? Of course. But you portraying the Muslims as just a bunch of peace loving, hookah smoking hippies who has only been on the receiving end of aggression from the West can't be further from the truth.

The reason I don't "admit" anything was "wrong", it's because of the context. If anything those people were victims of their time, nothing more.


I am not splitting hairs , merely stating FACTS that you continually ignore .

Wether you want to admit it or not , we here in the west have continually invaded the middle east and fracked with the inhabitants for both religious and economic {oil} reasons .

Your rationale as to why palestine "belongs" to christians is the best piece of comedic text i have seen in a long time .

When did i portray muslims as "peace loving , hookah smoking hippies ?

And by stating this you are displaying an inability to adhere to facts i am presenting , and trying to imply that i am saying something i did not .

Your last statement illustrates why so many human being's never seem to learn from their mistakes .

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 06 December 2012 - 01:38 AM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#50 Lancaster

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:18 AM

I am not splitting hairs , just stating FACTS that you continually ignore .


I am not splitting hairs , merely stating FACTS that you continually ignore .

Wether you want to admit it or not , we here in the west have continually invaded the middle east and fracked with the inhabitants for both religious and economic {oil} reasons .

Your rationale as to why palestine "belongs" to christians is the best piece of comedic text i have seen in a long time .

When did i portray muslims as "peace loving , hookah smoking hippies ?

And by stating this you are displaying an inability to adhere to facts i am presenting , and trying to imply that i am saying something i did not .

Your last statement illustrates why so many human being's never seem to learn from their mistakes .


I'm not denying that the West have recently mess with the Middle East, but it's a two-way street. People from the ME has been messing with the rest of Europe too. History is an on-going process, you can't just simply skip over a bunch of older stuff and arbitrarily make a starting time to prove a point.

I haven't ignored any facts. I'm just tell you as is. If I am ignore something, please tell me what it is rather than just claiming that I do.
As for my "inability to adhere to facts", please tell me who occupied the present day Palestine prior to the Arabs.
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#51 لني

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:55 AM

I'm not denying that the West have recently mess with the Middle East, but it's a two-way street. People from the ME has been messing with the rest of Europe too. History is an on-going process, you can't just simply skip over a bunch of older stuff and arbitrarily make a starting time to prove a point.

I haven't ignored any facts. I'm just tell you as is. If I am ignore something, please tell me what it is rather than just claiming that I do.
As for my "inability to adhere to facts", please tell me who occupied the present day Palestine prior to the Arabs.


Yup.

Nor is it an issue of moral conscience but of power.


The middle eastern countries have zero problem now ???? around with other countries. Hence their little problem with being "persecuted" in pretty much every region.

If they could over power europe or NA they would.

Edited by لني, 06 December 2012 - 07:57 AM.

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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#52 lowest common denominator

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:35 PM

If this was a "Muslims" way of living then there would be 100s of beheading like this all over the world.


Unfortunately, there are hundreds of incidents like this every year, only a few of them get reported. It happens even in Canada. Those muslims in Montreal that killed 4 or 5 female members of their family because they were "dishonoured" by talking to boys or some stoneage caveman non-sense.

These people are living a stone age life, tribal and uneducated, totally savage. It's probably a very desperate existence. You have 2 religions fighting over an absolute craphole spot of arrid desert, they probably both came from the same ancestors!

This is why so many underage girls are marrried off: In her parents eyes, they would rather see the daughter married off to some abusive pedophile who will actually "take care" of her instead of getting raped then being unmarriable and a burden and shame to the parents for the rest of her life. fracked up, I know, but that is the reality for billions of people.

Christians are just as bad as muslims. Pedophile freaks, the lot of 'em.

Edited by scottiecanuck, 06 December 2012 - 01:40 PM.

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#53 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:45 PM

I'm not denying that the West have recently mess with the Middle East, but it's a two-way street. People from the ME has been messing with the rest of Europe too. History is an on-going process, you can't just simply skip over a bunch of older stuff and arbitrarily make a starting time to prove a point.

I haven't ignored any facts. I'm just tell you as is. If I am ignore something, please tell me what it is rather than just claiming that I do.
As for my "inability to adhere to facts", please tell me who occupied the present day Palestine prior to the Arabs.


The crusades were the western nations attempt at genocide at the time , and as such they are crimes against humanity , and you call the victims of this , victims of their time , i call this ignoring the facts .

In referring to to your inability to adhere to facts , it was your statement that i portrayed muslims as peace loving hookah smoking hippies , something i have not and would never do .

In reply to your last question here is a brief history of palestine up until 1939
3'RD MILLENNIUM BC



3'rd millennium BC : The Canaanites were the earliest known inhabitants of Palestine. They became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho . They developed an alphabet. Palestine's location at the center of routes linking three continents made it the meeting place for religious and cultural influences from Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Asia Minor. It was also the natural battleground for the great powers of the region and subject to domination by adjacent empires, beginning with Egypt in the 3d millennium BC.




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2'ND MILLENNIUM BC



2'rd millennium BC : Egyptian hegemony and Canaanite autonomy were constantly challenged by such ethnically diverse invaders as the Amorites, Hittites, and Hurrians. These invaders, however, were defeated by the Egyptians and absorbed by the Canaanites, who at that time may have numbered about 200000.

14th century BC : Egyptian power began to weaken, new invaders appeared: the Hebrews, a group of Semitic tribes from Mesopotamia, and the Philistines (after whom the country was later named), an Aegean people of Indo-European stock.

1230 BC : Joshua conquered parts of Palestine. The conquerors settled in the hill country, but they were unable to conquer all of Palestine.

1125 BC : The Israelites, a confederation of Hebrew tribes, finally defeated the Canaanites but found the struggle with the Philistines more difficult . Philistines had established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine and controlled the Canaanite town of Jerusalem.

1050 BC : Philistines with there superior in military organization and using iron weapons, they severely defeated the Israelites about 1050 BC .



Posted Image


1-999 AD



70 AD : Titus of Rome laid siege to Jerusalem. The fiercely defended Temple eventually fell, and with it the whole city. Seeking a complete and enduring victory, Titus ordered the total destruction of the Herodian Temple. A new city named Aelia was built by the Romans on the ruins of Jerusalem, and a temple dedicated to Jupitor raised up.

313 AD : Palestine received special attention when the Roman emperor Constantine I legalized Christianity. His mother, Helena, visited Jerusalem, and Palestine, as the Holy Land, became a focus of Christian pilgrimage. A golden age of prosperity, security, and culture followed. Most of the population became Hellenized and Christianized .

324 AD : Constantine of Byzantium marched on Aelia. He rebuilt the city walls and commissioned the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and opened the city for Christian pilgrimage.

29-614 AD : Byzantine (Roman) rule was interrupted , however , by a brief Persian occupation and ended altogether when Muslim Arab armies invaded Palestine and captured Jerusalem in AD 638 .

638 AD : The Arab conquest began 1300 years of Muslim presence in what then became known as Filastin. Eager to be rid of their Byzantine overlords and aware of their shared heritage with the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, as well as the Muslims reputation for mercy and compassion in victory, the people of Jerusalem handed over the city after a brief siege. They made only one condition, That the terms of their surrender be negotiated directly with the Khalif 'Umar in person. 'Umar entered Jerusalem on foot. There was no bloodshed. There were no massacres. Those who wanted to leave were allowed to, with all their goods. Those who wanted to stay were guarantee protection for their lives, their property and places of worship.

Palestine was holy to Muslims because the Prophet Muhammad had designated Jerusalem as the first qibla (the direction Muslims face when praying) and because he was believed to have ascended on a night journey to heaven from the the old city of Jerusalem (al-Aqsa Mosque today) , where the Dome of the Rock was later built. Jerusalem became the third holiest city of Islam. The Muslim rulers did not force their religion on the Palestinians, and more than a century passed before the majority converted to Islam. The remaining Christians and Jews were considered People of the Book. They were allowed autonomous control in their communities and guaranteed security and freedom of worship. Such tolerance was rare in the history of religion . Most Palestinians also adopted Arabic and Islamic culture. Palestine benefited from the empires trade and from its religious significance during the first Muslim dynasty, the Umayyads of Damascus.

750 AD : The power shifted to Baghdad with the Abbasids, Palestine became neglected. It suffered unrest and successive domination by Seljuks, Fatimids, and European Crusaders. It shared, however, in the glory of Muslim civilization, when the Muslim world enjoyed a golden age of science, art, philosophy, and literature. Muslims preserved Greek learning and broke new ground in several fields, all of which later contributed to the Renaissance in Europe. Like the rest of the empire, however, Palestine under the Mamelukes gradually stagnated and declined.


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Posted Image


1000-1899 AD



1517 AD : The Ottoman Turks of Asia Minor defeated the Mamelukes, with few interruptions, ruled Palestine until the winter of 1917-18. The country was divided into several districts (sanjaks), such as that of Jerusalem. The administration of the districts was placed largely in the hands of Arab Palestinians, who were descendants of the Canaanites. The Christian and Jewish communities, however, were allowed a large measure of autonomy. Palestine shared in the glory of the Ottoman Empire during the 16th century, but declined again when the empire began to decline in the 17th century.

1831-1840 AD : Muhammad Ali, the modernizing viceroy of Egypt, expanded his rule to Palestine . His policies modified the feudal order, increased agriculture, and improved education.

1840 The Ottoman Empire reasserted its authority, instituting its own reforms .

1845 Jewish in Palestine were 12,000 increased to 85,000 by 1914. All people in Palestine were Arabic Muslims and Christians.

1897 the first Zionist Congress held Basle, Switzerland, issued the Basle programme on the colonization of Palestine.



Posted Image


1900-1946



1904 the Fourth Zionist Congress decided to establish a national home for Jews in Argentina.

1906 the Zionist congress decided the Jewish homeland should be Palestine.

1914 With the outbreak of World War I, Britain promised the independence of Arab lands under Ottoman rule, including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany.

1916 Britain and France signed the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned to France, Jordan and Iraq to Britain and Palestine was to be internationalized.

1917 The British government issued the Balfour Declaration on November 2, in the form of a letter to a British Zionist leader from the foreign secretary Arthur J. Balfour prmissing him the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.

1917-1918 Aided by the Arabs, the British captured Palestine from the Ottoman Turks. The Arabs revolted against the Turks because the British had promised them, in correspondence with Shareef Husein ibn Ali of Mecca, the independence of their countries after the war. Britain, however, also made other, conflicting commitments in the secret Sykes-Picot agreement with France and Russia (1916), it promised to divide and rule the region with its allies. In a third agreement, the Balfour Declaration of 1917, Britain promised the Jews a Jewish "national home" in Palestine .

1918 After WW I ended, Jews began to migrate to Palestine, which was set a side as a British mandate with the approval of the League of Nations in 1922. Large-scale Jewish settlement and extensive Zionist agricultural and industrial enterprises in Palestine began during the British mandatory period, which lasted until 1948.

1919 The Palestinians convened their first National Conference and expressed their opposition to the Balfour Declaration.

1920 The San Remo Conference granted Britain a mandate over Palestine. and two years later Palestine was effectively under British administration. Sir Herbert Samuel, a declared Zionist, was sent as Britain's first High Commissioner to Palestine.

1922 The Council of the League of Nations issued a Mandate for Palestine.

1929 Large-scale attacks on Jews by Arabs rocked Jerusalem. Palestinians killed 133 Jews and suffered 116 deaths. Sparked by a dispute over use of the Western Wall of Al-Aqsa Mosque ( this site is sacred to Muslims, but Jews claimed it is the remaining of jews temple all studies shows clearly that the wall is from the Islamic ages and it is part of al-Aqsa Mosque). But the roots of the conflict lay deeper in Arab fears of the Zionist movement which aimed to make at least part of British-administered Palestine a Jewish state.

1936 The Palestinians held a six-month General Strike to protest against the confiscation of land and Jewish immigration.

1937 Peel Commission, headed by Lord Robert Peel, issued a report. Basically, the commission concluded, the mandate in Palestine was unworkable There was no hope of any cooperative national entity there that included both Arabs and Jews. The commission went on to recommend the partition of Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a neutral sacred-site state to be administered by Britain.

1939 The British government published a White Paper restricting Jewish immigration and offering independence for Palestine within ten years. This was rejected by the Zionists, who then organized terrorist groups and launched a bloody campaign against the British and the Palestinians.

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 06 December 2012 - 03:45 PM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#54 JoGuitar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

People need to stop losing their heads over this stuff...







:ph34r:
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#55 Lancaster

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:45 AM

Spoiler


The only reason I through out those extreme metaphors is to prove how absurd it is if you don't provide a balance point of view.

If you're simply gonna view everything though the modern perspective, then everything could be considered as negative.
Columbus was a slave owner who eventually contributed to the destruction of the civilizations in the Americas, so I guess he should be treated a murdered and retroactively charged with crimes against humanity.
Leonardo da Vinci stole corpses for his own experiments, I guess he should be considered as a sick SOB.
Hammurabi codified a set of laws which violates the current UN Human Rights standard, his contribution to the world should be ignored and his name removed from the pages of history.

Need I continue on your illogical change of thought? Just because certain things are wrong by today's standard, it doesn't mean it's wrong then.


And yes, I know you can CTRL-C and CTRL-V, but what does that have to do with the current Palestinians. It's true the Canaaties were the first recorded group to live in the area, but it's obvious there were other previous neolithic cultures living before then.
But I know you're still gonna rant about how it "belonged" to the Arabs, although they seized the land from another group of people, and those people took the land from others, etc.
If history is all about screwing someone else over, how can you claim the land belongs to the Palestinians?
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#56 Primus099

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:54 AM

That is disgraceful. I definitely feel bad for women living there.


I feel bad for ANYone living there
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#57 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:21 AM

The only reason I through out those extreme metaphors is to prove how absurd it is if you don't provide a balance point of view.

If you're simply gonna view everything though the modern perspective, then everything could be considered as negative.
Columbus was a slave owner who eventually contributed to the destruction of the civilizations in the Americas, so I guess he should be treated a murdered and retroactively charged with crimes against humanity.
Leonardo da Vinci stole corpses for his own experiments, I guess he should be considered as a sick SOB.
Hammurabi codified a set of laws which violates the current UN Human Rights standard, his contribution to the world should be ignored and his name removed from the pages of history.

Need I continue on your illogical change of thought? Just because certain things are wrong by today's standard, it doesn't mean it's wrong then.


And yes, I know you can CTRL-C and CTRL-V, but what does that have to do with the current Palestinians. It's true the Canaaties were the first recorded group to live in the area, but it's obvious there were other previous neolithic cultures living before then.
But I know you're still gonna rant about how it "belonged" to the Arabs, although they seized the land from another group of people, and those people took the land from others, etc.
If history is all about screwing someone else over, how can you claim the land belongs to the Palestinians?


Listen buddy , i have been arguing against something you claimed , of course my posts are going to be on the "Balanced" side of my arguments .

And something that was morally wrong then is morally wrong now , and vice a versa , and to try and call the vitims of the crusades , both jewish and arabic as victims of their times is beyond belief , do you know that the crusaders massacred children ? Babies as well

I have not claimed or ranted that palsetine belongs to the arabs , this is more BS on your part ,STOP CLAIMING I AM SAYING THINGS THAT I DID NOT .

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 07 December 2012 - 05:42 AM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.





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