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Convicted animal killer to be released in months


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#91 debluvscanucks

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:11 PM

Well said, DBTR.

And, to a certain degree, I have a feeling of empathy for her. I by no means have any expertise but, from what I've read, it sounds like this is very deeply rooted and likely manifested itself when she was an infant. To be neglected as a newborn and deprived basic things like nurturing, comfort, feeding and love is a horrible thought - no baby should have to endure that. So it's so very sad that this beautiful, young woman has developed into a monster. But how do you fix something that's been embedded since day one?...like DBTR said, you don't. But you also don't put others at risk by letting her loose to carry out her actions. It's just a no win situation.
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#92 hudson bay rules

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

Then perhaps you should be a tad more clear with what you're writing


So I'm the only one here with personal exp?

Sorry
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#93 Jägermeister

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:04 PM

So I'm the only one here with personal exp?

Sorry


Based on what you're saying, I have serious doubts you've had personal experience with Sadistic Psychopaths. You may have had experience in other fields of Mental Health, but it does not seem like they were similar to the case at hand.

Edited by Jägermeister, 05 December 2012 - 03:05 PM.

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#94 Down by the River

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

Well said, DBTR.

And, to a certain degree, I have a feeling of empathy for her. I by no means have any expertise but, from what I've read, it sounds like this is very deeply rooted and likely manifested itself when she was an infant. To be neglected as a newborn and deprived basic things like nurturing, comfort, feeding and love is a horrible thought - no baby should have to endure that. So it's so very sad that this beautiful, young woman has developed into a monster. But how do you fix something that's been embedded since day one?...like DBTR said, you don't. But you also don't put others at risk by letting her loose to carry out her actions. It's just a no win situation.


Thanks, and your interpretation is correct IMO.

It is a very difficult interpretation to come to, because caring and empathic individuals do not want to simply 'give up' on others. Empathic/caring people have a mentality where they want to see individuals reintegrate themselves and live with the personal freedoms and human rights that we are all accustomed to. However, the mentality that I am describing is exactly what psychopaths are able to feed off of. Second chances and non-punitive responses are simply the creation of new opportunities for harm. The individuals who want to see psychopaths treated are probably the same individuals who, in their attempt at treatment, help facilitate a greater amount of harm done.

In my posts, I don't want to give the impression that I have a crime control, 'lock-em-up' type attitude. I believe that alternatives to incarceration should always be used for the vast, vast, vast majority of young offenders. However, there are about 5-6% of ALL young offenders who are responsible for upwards of 50% of all youth crime. In the case of this group, protection of the public must be paramount. Keep in mind that prior victimization is one of the strongest predictors of future criminal behaviour. Failing to properly protect other individuals from being victimized by young offenders may actually lead to the victimized becoming a future victimizer.
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OMG we could've had McKeown!

I think Virtanen was a terrible pick given that he's out for 6 months which will hinder his development. You don't pick someone at #6 under that circumstance, along with the fact that he was given a 3/5 IQ (aka he's dumb). 

God dammit Benning. WHY VIRTANEN? Terrible move.

Down by the River - Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.


#95 hudson bay rules

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

Based on what you're saying, I have serious doubts you've had personal experience with Sadistic Psychopaths. You may have had experience in other fields of Mental Health, but it does not seem like they were similar to the case at hand.


more insight and personal exp than >99.9% of CDCer's that for sure.

Hell, most of you are afraid of spiders.
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#96 Tearloch7

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:15 PM

more insight and personal exp than >99.9% of CDCer's that for sure.

Hell, most of you are afraid of spiders.


You are not helping your cause by casting aspersions on others phobia's, Dr. Passaglia .. try sharing your insights without personal attacks next time .. guaranteed to catch more "fly's" that way .. and spidey's .. :)
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#97 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:18 PM

Thanks, and your interpretation is correct IMO.

It is a very difficult interpretation to come to, because caring and empathic individuals do not want to simply 'give up' on others. Empathic/caring people have a mentality where they want to see individuals reintegrate themselves and live with the personal freedoms and human rights that we are all accustomed to. However, the mentality that I am describing is exactly what psychopaths are able to feed off of. Second chances and non-punitive responses are simply the creation of new opportunities for harm. The individuals who want to see psychopaths treated are probably the same individuals who, in their attempt at treatment, help facilitate a greater amount of harm done.

In my posts, I don't want to give the impression that I have a crime control, 'lock-em-up' type attitude. I believe that alternatives to incarceration should always be used for the vast, vast, vast majority of young offenders. However, there are about 5-6% of ALL young offenders who are responsible for upwards of 50% of all youth crime. In the case of this group, protection of the public must be paramount. Keep in mind that prior victimization is one of the strongest predictors of future criminal behaviour. Failing to properly protect other individuals from being victimized by young offenders may actually lead to the victimized becoming a future victimizer.


So I understand that putting these people into mental health facilities (medical incarceration) is not allowed under current law.

Is there some reason this isn't being actively sought to be changed? Especially given what appears to be pretty compelling reasoning to do so?
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#98 Jägermeister

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

more insight and personal exp than >99.9% of CDCer's that for sure.

Hell, most of you are afraid of spiders.


That means nothing, even if it was true.
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#99 Down by the River

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

So I understand that putting these people into mental health facilities (medical incarceration) is not allowed under current law.

Is there some reason this isn't being actively sought to be changed? Especially given what appears to be pretty compelling reasoning to do so?


I want to first make a disclaimer that the reasons I am about to provide are based on my own beliefs. These aren't official, documented reasons for why psychopaths are not placed in mental health facilities. I don't believe there is any documented reason. So, my explanation I provide is not something I stand by unequivocally. At the current time, this is what I believe.

The main reason why psychopaths are not put into mental health facilities:

Because psychopathy is not in the DSM, there is no real ground to stand on to suggest that this is an identified personality disorder. Certifying someone under the Mental Health Act requires that the certification be based on someone with a known disorder. Since psychopathy, while widely regarded as a personality disorder, does not exist within the DSM, they cannot be classified, which makes certification (i.e. hospitalization) not possible.

Secondary reasons:

(a) Related to the first point, the assessment of psychopathy is still in its infancy (relative to other mental disorders). Moreover, there is a lot of debate surrounding (1) what are the key components of psychopathy, and (2) how do we measure these components? Currently, Dr. Robert Hare's PCL-R is considered the gold standard as a measure of psychopathy. Yet, there is mountains of criticism regarding this instrument, particular its overemphasis on behavioural characteristics.

The reason why this is an issue for certification into a mental hospital is that, if we are not yet sure what the best way to measure psychopathy is, should we really be certifying an individual based on their psychopathy diagnosis? What if it isn't accurate? What if they are just bordering on the cut score for psychopath/non-psychopath? Without an official DSM criteria to stand on, it is a bit of a risk to be fully confident in saying, in every case, that "yes, this person is a psychopath".

(b ) Stigma. Related to point (a), psychopathy carries with it connotations that are far worse than saying someone is, for example, schizophrenic. Schizophrenia can be managed. Psychopathy cannot. If you are going to say that someone is a psychopath, that is a label that they will carry forever, and people will (and rightfully so) give up on the idea of treating them. However, as mentioned in point (a), what if our diagnosis was wrong?

( c) Hospital Management. At times, it must be hell on earth to be a nurse in a mental health facility. Throw psychopathy into the mix, and nurses would probably be begging for hell. Psychopaths would pose a risk to other patients/inmates and staff. Additionally, psychopaths would probably have a negative impact on the ability of hospitalized non-psychopaths to receive adequate treatment. For psychopaths, they are better off incarcerated in prisons, not in mental health facilities, IMO.

Edited by Down by the River, 05 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.

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OMG we could've had McKeown!

I think Virtanen was a terrible pick given that he's out for 6 months which will hinder his development. You don't pick someone at #6 under that circumstance, along with the fact that he was given a 3/5 IQ (aka he's dumb). 

God dammit Benning. WHY VIRTANEN? Terrible move.

Down by the River - Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.


#100 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

( c) Hospital Management. At times, it must be hell on earth to be a nurse in a mental health facility. Throw psychopathy into the mix, and nurses would probably be begging for hell. Psychopaths would pose a risk to other patients/inmates and staff. Additionally, psychopaths would probably have a negative impact on the ability of hospitalized non-psychopaths to receive adequate treatment. For psychopaths, they are better off incarcerated in prisons, not in mental health facilities, IMO.


Exactly. And it is.
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#101 ronthecivil

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:08 AM

I want to first make a disclaimer that the reasons I am about to provide are based on my own beliefs. These aren't official, documented reasons for why psychopaths are not placed in mental health facilities. I don't believe there is any documented reason. So, my explanation I provide is not something I stand by unequivocally. At the current time, this is what I believe.

The main reason why psychopaths are not put into mental health facilities:

Because psychopathy is not in the DSM, there is no real ground to stand on to suggest that this is an identified personality disorder. Certifying someone under the Mental Health Act requires that the certification be based on someone with a known disorder. Since psychopathy, while widely regarded as a personality disorder, does not exist within the DSM, they cannot be classified, which makes certification (i.e. hospitalization) not possible.

Secondary reasons:

(a) Related to the first point, the assessment of psychopathy is still in its infancy (relative to other mental disorders). Moreover, there is a lot of debate surrounding (1) what are the key components of psychopathy, and (2) how do we measure these components? Currently, Dr. Robert Hare's PCL-R is considered the gold standard as a measure of psychopathy. Yet, there is mountains of criticism regarding this instrument, particular its overemphasis on behavioural characteristics.

The reason why this is an issue for certification into a mental hospital is that, if we are not yet sure what the best way to measure psychopathy is, should we really be certifying an individual based on their psychopathy diagnosis? What if it isn't accurate? What if they are just bordering on the cut score for psychopath/non-psychopath? Without an official DSM criteria to stand on, it is a bit of a risk to be fully confident in saying, in every case, that "yes, this person is a psychopath".

(b ) Stigma. Related to point (a), psychopathy carries with it connotations that are far worse than saying someone is, for example, schizophrenic. Schizophrenia can be managed. Psychopathy cannot. If you are going to say that someone is a psychopath, that is a label that they will carry forever, and people will (and rightfully so) give up on the idea of treating them. However, as mentioned in point (a), what if our diagnosis was wrong?

( c) Hospital Management. At times, it must be hell on earth to be a nurse in a mental health facility. Throw psychopathy into the mix, and nurses would probably be begging for hell. Psychopaths would pose a risk to other patients/inmates and staff. Additionally, psychopaths would probably have a negative impact on the ability of hospitalized non-psychopaths to receive adequate treatment. For psychopaths, they are better off incarcerated in prisons, not in mental health facilities, IMO.


Ok so what is needed is better tools to assess if someone is a danger to society or not and I can understand wanting to have that under control before one is arbitrarily tossed into jail.

However what you should as a group be lobbying for at least is that when one is clearly high scoring and with clear evidence that they intend to follow through on things (such as the case of people like the subject here who was already in jail for violence). In others words its understandable to not just pull people in off the streets but when they already have a violent criminal history perhaps those two things together will help zero in on the most critical people.
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#102 Electro Rock

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:00 PM

I'd hit it, crazy in the head, crazy in bed FTW!

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#103 Tearloch7

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

I'd hit it, crazy in the head, crazy in bed FTW!


Just don't drift off to sleep ..
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#104 rampage

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

She looks like an animal.
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#105 Down by the River

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

Ok so what is needed is better tools to assess if someone is a danger to society or not and I can understand wanting to have that under control before one is arbitrarily tossed into jail.

However what you should as a group be lobbying for at least is that when one is clearly high scoring and with clear evidence that they intend to follow through on things (such as the case of people like the subject here who was already in jail for violence). In others words its understandable to not just pull people in off the streets but when they already have a violent criminal history perhaps those two things together will help zero in on the most critical people.


Exactly. In my case, I assess for psychopathy in youth, which is a whole other story/can of worms.

IMO, for those adults who score very high on the PCL-R (the typical instrument used to assess for psychopathy in adulthood), the next step is to go to, at the point of sentencing, apply to the court for a Dangerous Offender Assessment.

The Dangerous Offender provisions of the Criminal Code are intended to protect all Canadians from the most dangerous violent and sexual predators in the country. Individuals convicted of these offences can be designated as a Dangerous Offender during sentencing if a sentencing court is satisfied that the offender constitutes a threat to the life, safety or physical or mental well-being of the public. Where an offender is designated by the court as a Dangerous Offender, the offender may be sentenced to an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment.



However, getting a judge to agree with a Dangerous Offender Assessment is nearly impossible. Kruse Wellwood and Cameron Moffat, the two youth responsible for the horrific death of Kimberly Proctor, were deemed by the judge to not meet the criteria for a Dangerous Offender Order because, IIRC, the judge felt that their young age gave them an opportunity for rehabilitation. It is highly highly highly unlikely that this is possible for these two.


http://www.publicsaf...ls/dod-eng.aspx

Edited by Down by the River, 07 December 2012 - 11:57 AM.

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OMG we could've had McKeown!

I think Virtanen was a terrible pick given that he's out for 6 months which will hinder his development. You don't pick someone at #6 under that circumstance, along with the fact that he was given a 3/5 IQ (aka he's dumb). 

God dammit Benning. WHY VIRTANEN? Terrible move.

Down by the River - Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.


#106 Down by the River

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:03 PM

She's been released:

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...e-released.html

A former Simon Fraser University student who was convicted of torturing and killing animals and admitted to wanting to kill homeless people has been released from jail and will live in Vancouver.
Kayla Bourque, 23, was convicted in November of causing unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to animals, willfully and without lawful excuse killing animals and possessing a weapon for a dangerous purpose. Child pornography charges she was facing were stayed.
The former SFU criminology student has admitted to taking delight in killing animals and fantasizing about shooting homeless people. Several psychologists who interviewed Bourque found she showed no remorse or insight into her crimes.
On Monday morning, Corrections Canada confirmed Bourque was released on probation after serving about eight months in custody.
She will be closely monitored by authorities and will have to abide by 46 court-ordered conditions that will severely restrict her movements and activities, said officials.
Under the conditions, Bourque is not allowed to have anyone in her home from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m., and anyone who does visit must be made fully aware of the charges she pleaded guilty to and their circumstances.
She can't associate with anyone under the age of 18 or access the internet. She is also banned from possessing duct tape, hypodermic needles or knives.
Showed no remorse or insight

One psychologist who spoke with Bourque ahead of her sentencing in Vancouver provincial court last year testified she will likely require supervision for the rest of her life.


'While intelligent and articulate, she had a preoccupation for causing pain.'—Judge Malcolm Maclean

Other doctors described her as a sexual sadist and narcissist with an anti-social personality disorder and sociopathic tendencies.
"It is clear that Ms. Bourque is a very unique and troubling case," said Judge Malcolm Maclean as he delivered what he described as "probably one of the most comprehensive probation orders I've ever done."
Adopted from a Romanian orphanage at the age of eight months, Bourque grew up in Prince George, B.C. While in high school, Maclean said she admitted to having the urge to "kill someone."
Enrolled at SFU in criminology

After graduation, she enrolled in criminology and psychology at Simon Fraser University.
While living in residence last March, she told another student she had disemboweled and dismembered cats in the Prince George area and that she fantasized about getting a gun and shooting a homeless person.
She also said she wanted to kill someone in residence and was taking forensic classes because she wanted to "get away" with something in the future.
The classmate told campus security, and police were alerted.
Bourque was initially arrested under the Mental Health Act and a search of her residence turned up a blue nylon bag with a kitchen knife, a razor blade, three large garbage bags, a hypodermic needle and a mask.
Police also found a video showing her killing the family dog. Another video showed Bourque torturing the family cat.
Bourque's mother has said she does not want her daughter living in the family home.
"While intelligent and articulate," MacLean said. "She had a preoccupation for causing pain."
The probation order will be reviewed in three months.

Court ordered conditions of Kayla Bourque's release:
  • Not to leave residence between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m. daily seven days a week except: (a) for the purposes of obtaining emergency medical treatment, (B) and except with the prior written permission of a probation officer.
  • Not to associate with any person under the age of 18.
  • Not to attend any public school, parks, playgrounds, or public swimming pools, or areas adjacent to the swimming pools or any other locations where it can reasonably be expected that persons under the age of 18 are likely to be present.
  • Not to possess any computer or telecommunication device capable of accessing the internet.
  • Not to access to any social networking sites.
  • Attend, participate in, and complete the BC Corrections Branch core programs.
  • Attend and participate in psychiatric/psychological assessments, counselling or educational programming as may be directed and to the satisfaction of a probation officer.
  • Immediately advise probation officer of any close, intimate, familiar, or familial relationships and refrain from continuing such a relationship until that person has been advised of criminal record and background in the presence of a probation officer.
  • Not to engage in any areas of study, employment, or volunteer work involving contact with any animals or any vulnerable person, which includes but is not limited to the elderly, persons under the age of 18, the infirmed, or persons with physical or mental disabilities.
  • Not to attend any college or university or enrol in any post secondary courses.
  • Not to possess any weapons as defined in the Criminal Code of Canada including firearms, imitation firearms, ammunition, crossbows, or explosive substance, or any related authorization, licences, permits, or registration certificates in relation to those.
  • Not to possess any knives or other bladed instruments except for the immediate preparation and consumption of food, for the actual course of lawful employment and only at the sites of such employment.
  • Prohibited from owning, having custody or control of, or residing in any premises where animals or birds are present.
  • Not to attend any campus or property occupied by Simon Fraser University, including any adjacent parking lots or student residences.


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OMG we could've had McKeown!

I think Virtanen was a terrible pick given that he's out for 6 months which will hinder his development. You don't pick someone at #6 under that circumstance, along with the fact that he was given a 3/5 IQ (aka he's dumb). 

God dammit Benning. WHY VIRTANEN? Terrible move.

Down by the River - Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.


#107 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:22 PM

This is not the last we will hear of Kayla Bourque. Unfortunately.
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"Sursumredditio" non usquam in hac mea loquantur!



Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....






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