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Canada votes against UN motion calling on Israel to open up nuclear program to inspection


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#61 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:50 AM

And how would you know this??


It's a good guess, and a statement I think most who have looked at the two conflicts would agree with.
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#62 Pouria

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:02 AM

It's a good guess, and a statement I think most who have looked at the two conflicts would agree with.


Sorry, but decisions aren't made based on guesses. You either have facts or you don't. I also guess that Israel would be the first country to drop a nuclear bomb.

Edited by Pouria, 06 December 2012 - 01:05 AM.

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#63 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:06 AM

Sorry, but decisions aren't made based on guesses. You either have facts or you don't. I also guess that Israel would be the first country to drop a nuclear bomb.


Israel's 40 years of nukes (apparently) suggest you're wrong!

By the way, what "decisions" are you talking about?

Edited by Coda, 06 December 2012 - 01:08 AM.

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#64 Pouria

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:10 AM

Israel's 40 years of nukes (apparently) suggest you're wrong!

By the way, what "decisions" are you talking about?


They might just use those nukes for the first time to stop a country from acquiring nuclear weapons.
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#65 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:13 AM

They might just use those nukes for the first time to stop a country from acquiring nuclear weapons.


You must really think Israel has good reason to prevent other countries from getting nuclear weapons!
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#66 Pouria

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:15 AM

You must really think Israel has good reason to prevent other countries from getting nuclear weapons!


Israel is thinking about expanding and taking more of that "Arab" land, so they do have a good reason to prevent other countries from getting nuclear weapons.
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#67 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:17 AM

Israel is thinking about expanding and taking more of that "Arab" land, so they do have a good reason to prevent other countries from getting nuclear weapons.


Which Arab land is Israel going to invade?
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#68 Pouria

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:19 AM

Which Arab land is Israel going to invade?


Well, they are sort of invading it as we speak. You know, the one that became a recognized state recently. Here is a hint...it starts with P
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#69 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:51 AM

Well, they are sort of invading it as we speak. You know, the one that became a recognized state recently. Here is a hint...it starts with P


Do you mean the Westbank? You'll find that Israel captured it in 1967 in a defensive war against Jordan.
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#70 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:13 AM

Do you mean the Westbank? You'll find that Israel captured it in 1967 in a defensive war against Jordan.


It blows me away , that a nation can launch a series of pre-emptive strikes , and wipe out their nieghbours airforces , and it is still described as a "defensive" war on israel's part .

There is the old saying , the best form of defense is offense .
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#71 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:29 AM

Captured and defensive war shouldn't be used in the same sentence.
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#72 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:38 AM

It blows me away , that a nation can launch a series of pre-emptive strikes , and wipe out their nieghbours airforces , and it is still described as a "defensive" war on israel's part .

There is the old saying , the best form of defense is offense .


While Israel launched preemptive strikes against Egypt and Syria, the Jordanian portion of the war was initiated by Jordan. In fact Israel had told Jordanian officials to keep out of the war.





West Bank

See also: Jordanian campaign (1967)


Posted Image

[background=initial !important]
Posted ImageThe Jordan salient, June 5–7.

[/background]

Jordan was reluctant to enter the war. Nasser used the obscurity of the first hours of the conflict to convince King Hussein that he was victorious; he claimed as evidence a radar sighting of a squadron of Israeli aircraft returning from bombing raids in Egypt which he said was an Egyptian aircraft en route to attacking Israel.[112] One of the Jordanian brigades stationed in the West Bank was sent to the Hebron area in order to link with the Egyptians. Hussein decided to attack.
The Jordanian Armed Forces included 11 brigades totalling some 55,000 troops, equipped with some 300 modern Western tanks. Of these, nine brigades (45,000 troops, 270 tanks, 200 artillery pieces) were deployed in the West Bank, including elite armored 40th, and two in the Jordan Valley. The Jordanian Army, then known as the Arab Legion, was a long-term-service, professional army, relatively well-equipped and well-trained. Furthermore, Israeli post-war briefings said that the Jordanian staff acted professionally as well, but was always left "half a step" behind by the Israeli moves. The small Royal Jordanian Air Force consisted of only 24 British-made Hawker Hunter fighters, six transports, and two helicopters. According to the Israelis, the Hawker Hunter was essentially on par with the French-built Dassault Mirage III – the IAF's best plane.[113]
Against Jordan's forces on the West Bank, Israel deployed about 40,000 troops and 200 tanks (8 brigades).[114] Israeli Central Command forces consisted of five brigades. The first two were permanently stationed near Jerusalem and were called the Jerusalem Brigade and the mechanized Harel Brigade. Mordechai Gur's 55thparatrooper brigade was summoned from the Sinai front. The 10th Armored Brigade was stationed north of the West Bank. The Israeli Northern Command provided a division (3 brigades) led by Major-General Elad Peled, which was stationed to the north of the West Bank, in the Jezreel Valley. The IDF's strategic plan was to remain on the defensive along the Jordanian front, to enable focus in the expected campaign against Egypt.
Intermittent machine-gun exchanges began taking place in Jerusalem at 9:30 am, and the fighting gradually escalated as the Jordanians introduced 3-inch mortars and 106mm recoilless rifles. Under the orders from General Narkis, the Israelis responded only with small-arms fire, firing in a flat trajectory to avoid hitting civilians, holy sites or the Old City. At 10:00 am on June 5, the Jordanian Army began shelling Israel. Two batteries of 155mm Long Tom cannons opened fire on the suburbs of Tel Aviv and Ramat David Airbase. The commanders of these batteries were instructed to lay a two-hour barrage against military and civilian settlements in central Israel. Some shells hit the outskirts of Tel Aviv.[115]
Israel assumed that the attacks were a symbolic gesture of solidarity with Egypt, and sent a message to King Hussein promising not to initiate any action against Jordan if it stayed out of the war. King Hussein replied that it was too late, "the die was cast".[116] At 11:15 am, Jordanian howitzers began a 6,000-shell barrage at Israeli Jerusalem. The Jordanians initially targeted kibbutz Ramat Rachel in the south and Mount Scopus in the north, then ranged into the city center and outlying neighborhoods. Military installations, the Prime Minister's Residence, and the Knesset compound were also targeted. Israeli civilian casualties totalled 20 dead and about 1,000 wounded. Some 900 buildings were damaged, including Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital.[117]
At 11:50 am, sixteen Jordanian Hawker Hunters attacked Netanya, Kfar Sirkin and Kfar Saba, killing one civilian, wounding seven and destroying a transport plane. Three Iraqi Hawker Hunters strafed civilian settlements in the Jezreel Valley, and an Iraqi Tu-16 attacked Afula, and was shot down near the Megiddo airfield. The attack caused minimal material damage, hitting only a senior citizens' home and several chicken coops, but sixteen Israeli soldiers were killed, most of them when the Tupolev crashed.[background=initial][[/background]117[background=initial]][/background]


It's also hard for a reasonable person to blame Israel for the preemptive strikes, considering what the leaders of the surrounding nations were saying prior to the war:



http://www.sixdaywar...ent/threats.asp

In the weeks leading up to the Six Day War, Arab leaders repeatedly threatened Israel with annihilation. Together with Egypt's ejection of United Nations forces, the closing of the Straits of Tiran, and the massing of troops on Israel's northern and southern borders, the fiery rhetoric created a state of existential fear in Israel.
Egypt
"Our aim is the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965
"Brothers, it is our duty to prepare for the final battle in Palestine." – Nasser, Palestine Day, 1967
"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel." – Nasser, May 27, 1967
"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967
"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan's King Hussein
"We are now ready to confront Israel .... The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the ... aggression which took place in Palestine ... with the collaboration of Britain and the United States." – Nasser, June 2, 1967
"Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria is in a position to cut Israel in two at Kalkilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only twelve kilometers wide ... ." – El Akhbar newspaper, Cairo, May 31, 1967
Cairo Radio Statements:
May 19, 1967: "This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land"
May 22, 1967: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map"
May 25, 1967: "The Gulf of Aqaba, by the dictum of history and the protection of our soldiers, is Arab, Arab, Arab."
May 25, 1967: "Millions of Arabs are ... preparing to blow up all of America's interests, all of America's installations, and your entire existence, America."
May 27, 1967: "We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel's death and annihilation."
May 30, 1967: "With the closing of the Gulf of Akaba, Israel is faced with two alternatives either of which will destroy it; it will either be strangled to death by the Arab military and economic boycott, or it will perish by the fire of the Arab forces encompassing it from the South from the North and from the East."
May 30, 1967: "The world will know that the Arabs are girded for battle as the fateful hour approaches."
Jordan
"All of the Arab armies now surround Israel. The UAR, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon, Algeria, Sudan, and Kuwait. ... There is no difference between one Arab people and another, no difference between one Arab army and another." – King Hussein of Jordan,after signing the pact with Egypt May 30, 1967
Iraq
"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." – President Abdel Rahman Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967
Palestinians
"D-Day is approaching. The Arabs have waited 19 years for this and will not flinch from the war of liberation." – Ahmed Shukairy, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, May 27, 1967
"This is a fight for the homeland – it is either us or the Israelis. There is no middle road. The Jews of Palestine will have to leave. We will facilitate their departure to their former homes. Any of the old Palestine Jewish population who survive may stay, but it is my impression that none of them will survive." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967
"We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants and as for the survivors – if there are any – the boats are ready to deport them." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967, speaking at a Friday sermon in Jerusalem
Syria
Syria's forces are "ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united.... I as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." – Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad, May 20, 1967
"Our two brotherly countries have turned into one mobilized force. The withdrawal of the UN forces ... means 'make way, our forces are on their way to battle.'" – Foreign Minister Makhous on his return from Cairo

Others

"The freedom of the homeland will be completed by the destruction of the Zionist entity and the expulsion of the Americans and the British from the region." – Algerian Prime Minister Houari Boumedienne

"We want war. War is the only way to settle the problem of Israel. The Arabs are ready." – Yemeni Foreign Minister Salam


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#73 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:40 AM

Captured and defensive war shouldn't be used in the same sentence.


The definition of defensive war disagrees with you.




What is DEFENSIVE WAR?


A war in defense of, or for the protection of, national rights. Itmay be defensive iu its principles, though offensive in its operations. 1 Kent, Comm. 50, note.



Read more: What is DEFENSIVE WAR? definition of DEFENSIVE WAR (Black's Law Dictionary)


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#74 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:45 AM

While Israel launched preemptive strikes against Egypt and Syria, the Jordanian portion of the war was initiated by Jordan. In fact Israel had told Jordanian officials to keep out of the war.







It's also hard for a reasonable person to blame Israel for the preemptive strikes, considering what the leaders of the surrounding nations were saying prior to the war:



http://www.sixdaywar...ent/threats.asp


I am quite aware of the history of that particular conflict thanks coda .

Pre-emptive , defensive war , maybe that is what the palestinians are doing when they shoot missile's into Israel .
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#75 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:59 AM

I am quite aware of the history of that particular conflict thanks coda .

Pre-emptive , defensive war , maybe that is what the palestinians are doing when they shoot missile's into Israel .


Probably not: if you know anything about Hamas it is more likely that they are just being dicks and the missiles are just to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. As well, if Israel tried to wipe out Gaza like the Arabs have being trying to wipe out Israel, it would not take 64 years of attempts...rather a few days or a few weeks. You see, the Arabs are quite incompetent even when it comes to Genocide. Instead, Israel sends hundreds of truckloads of humanitarian aid to Gaza every day, and provides medical and many other services. It would seem odd if Israel were doing this while planning on wiping out Gaza.
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#76 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:10 AM

Probably not: if you know anything about Hamas it is more likely that they are just being dicks and the missiles are just to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. As well, if Israel tried to wipe out Gaza like the Arabs have being trying to wipe out Israel, it would not take 64 years of attempts...rather a few days or a few weeks. You see, the Arabs are quite incompetent even when it comes to Genocide. Instead, Israel sends hundreds of truckloads of humanitarian aid to Gaza every day, and provides medical and many other services. It would seem odd if Israel were doing this while planning on wiping out Gaza.


See this is where you lose credibilty , if the arabs were truly trying to commit genocide , they would have to travel to america and kill the 5,000, 000 jews there , and britain , france , canada ecetera .

you just cannot help yourself can you .
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"These are the things to keep in mind. These are not just academic exercises. We're not analyzing the media on Mars or in the eighteenth century or something like that. We're dealing with real human beings who are suffering and dying and being tortured and starving because of policies that we are involved in, we as citizens of democratic societies are directly involved in and are responsible for, and what the media are doing is ensuring that we do not act on our responsibilities, and that the interests of power are served, not the needs of the suffering people, and not even the needs of the American people who would be horrified if they realized the blood that's dripping from their hands because of the way they are allowing themselves to be deluded and manipulated by the system."
Noam Chomsky

Jesus didn’t say yes to everyone. I mean Jesus knew that there was a place for everything and it is not necessarily everyone’s place to come to Australia
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#77 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:15 AM

See this is where you lose credibilty , if the arabs were truly trying to commit genocide , they would have to travel to america and kill the 5,000, 000 jews there , and britain , france , canada ecetera .

you just cannot help yourself can you .


:lol: So I take it the Holocaust was not a genocide of the Jews because Hitler was not planning to go to Palestine and the United States to kill the Jews there? Did you really think a genocide was only a genocide if every single member of a certain ethnic group was killed?

Really, some of the things you say are bizarre.
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#78 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:26 AM

:lol: So I take it the Holocaust was not a genocide of the Jews because Hitler was not planning to go to Palestine and the United States to kill the Jews there? Did you really think a genocide was only a genocide if every single member of a certain ethnic group was killed?

Really, some of the things you say are bizarre.


So now you are comparing a person who set up death camps and systematicaly killed the jews , to people who are trying to drive out the people who continually steal land from them , they have not set up camps to exterminate jews , and parts of their society want a two state solution to this conflict , yet you still say they want to commit genocide .
It is you who resorts to over the top rhetoric in your attempt to defend israel , and your personal attack is laughable :lol:
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"These are the things to keep in mind. These are not just academic exercises. We're not analyzing the media on Mars or in the eighteenth century or something like that. We're dealing with real human beings who are suffering and dying and being tortured and starving because of policies that we are involved in, we as citizens of democratic societies are directly involved in and are responsible for, and what the media are doing is ensuring that we do not act on our responsibilities, and that the interests of power are served, not the needs of the suffering people, and not even the needs of the American people who would be horrified if they realized the blood that's dripping from their hands because of the way they are allowing themselves to be deluded and manipulated by the system."
Noam Chomsky

Jesus didn’t say yes to everyone. I mean Jesus knew that there was a place for everything and it is not necessarily everyone’s place to come to Australia
Tony Abbott......Current Australian PM

#79 theminister

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:43 AM

Israel is a state not Judaism proper.

I love the jews I know, including my step sister, but I have no love for the actions of the state.

Anti-semetic? Your call.

/ Palestinians and Arabs are semites.
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#80 theminister

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:46 AM

:lol: So I take it the Holocaust was not a genocide of the Jews because Hitler was not planning to go to Palestine and the United States to kill the Jews there? Did you really think a genocide was only a genocide if every single member of a certain ethnic group was killed?

Really, some of the things you say are bizarre.


Actually, yes, he was.
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#81 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:51 AM

So now you are comparing a person who set up death camps and systematicaly killed the jews , to people who are trying to drive out the people who continually steal land from them , they have not set up camps to exterminate jews , and parts of their society want a two state solution to this conflict , yet you still say they want to commit genocide .
It is you who resorts to over the top rhetoric in your attempt to defend israel , and your personal attack is laughable :lol:


Oh yes I forgot: only the Israelis are allowed to be compared to Nazis. I continue to find this phenomenon interesting.

I brought up the Nazi Holocaust to help you see the error in your understanding of the word Genocide: It was an analogy taking an extreme example but with the same parameters of definition you used. But you are right: It is very commendable that the Arabs have not set up death camps to systematically kill the Jews, but only resort to the occasional war, more frequent terrorist attack, and constant rocket barrage.

More Israelis want a two state solution that Palestinians and Arabs...why do you never bring this up when Israel does things you disapprove of? Isn't this a double standard?

You also indicate that the Arabs are merely trying to drive out the Jews rather than commit Genocide. It's true: we can only guess at what percentage of Jews would be killed if the state of Israel was demolished, and which percentage would be able to leave (to God knows where). However, granting that a certain percentage of Jews could just leave and not be killed...isn't this true of every genocide? People would not be killed if they left the area of the genocide before they are killed...I think this is evident.

Frankly I find this a poor argument: Used in the reverse, actions by Israelis in their control of Palestinian land could be excused because "if they left, there would be no problem".

Edited by Coda, 06 December 2012 - 03:57 AM.

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#82 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:07 AM

Actually, yes, he was.


Although there may have been contingency plans made, I don't think even Hitler was crazy enough to really think he could conquer the United States.
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#83 theminister

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:18 AM

Although there may have been contingency plans made, I don't think even Hitler was crazy enough to really think he could conquer the United States.



Then you completely misunderstand what genocidal tendencies really are.

And you've never read Mein Kampf.
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#84 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:21 AM

Then you completely misunderstand what genocidal tendencies really are.

And you've never read Mein Kampf.


I've read most of it: Please direct me to the part where he alludes to going to the United States and killing their Jews.
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#85 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:23 AM

Oh yes I forgot: only the Israelis are allowed to be compared to Nazis. I continue to find this phenomenon interesting.

I brought up the Nazi Holocaust to help you see the error in your understanding of the word Genocide: It was an analogy taking an extreme example but with the same parameters of definition you used. But you are right: It is very commendable that the Arabs have not set up death camps to systematically kill the Jews, but only resort to the occasional war, more frequent terrorist attack, and constant rocket barrage.

More Israelis want a two state solution that Palestinians and Arabs...why do you never bring this up when Israel does things you disapprove of? Isn't this a double standard?

You also indicate that the Arabs are merely trying to drive out the Jews rather than commit Genocide. It's true: we can only guess at what percentage of Jews would be killed if the state of Israel was demolished, and which percentage would be able to leave (to God knows where). However, granting that a certain percentage of Jews could just leave and not be killed...isn't this true of every genocide? People would not be killed if they left the area of the genocide before they are killed...I think this is evident.

Frankly I find this a poor argument: Used in the reverse, actions by Israelis in their control of Palestinian land could be excused because "if they left, there would be no problem".


Your original statement was , You see, the Arabs are quite incompetent even when it comes to Genocide, i have merely been pointing out the ridiculousness of it.
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#86 theminister

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:26 AM

Probably not: if you know anything about Hamas it is more likely that they are just being dicks and the missiles are just to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. As well, if Israel tried to wipe out Gaza like the Arabs have being trying to wipe out Israel, it would not take 64 years of attempts...rather a few days or a few weeks. You see, the Arabs are quite incompetent even when it comes to Genocide. Instead, Israel sends hundreds of truckloads of humanitarian aid to Gaza every day, and provides medical and many other services. It would seem odd if Israel were doing this while planning on wiping out Gaza.


Kinda two faced considering there is an embargo preventing them from trading freely with other states.

That's like the USA criticizing Cuba for being 'backward.'
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#87 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:33 AM

Your original statement was , You see, the Arabs are quite incompetent even when it comes to Genocide, i have merely been pointing out the ridiculousness of it.


What do you mean exactly? It seems they have been quite incompetent at wiping out Israel. Don't you agree? Are you objecting to the word Genocide? What word would you prefer?
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#88 Coda

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:38 AM

Kinda two faced considering there is an embargo preventing them from trading freely with other states.

That's like the USA criticizing Cuba for being 'backward.'


Israel has restrictions on military and mixed-use goods imported into Gaza to minimize the number of rocket and artillery attacks launched against Israel. It seems like a reasonable policy. For example, what would the Canadian government's policy be towards Quebec if Quebec started firing hundreds of rockets a month into Ontario?
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#89 theminister

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:38 AM

I've read most of it: Please direct me to the part where he alludes to going to the United States and killing their Jews.


I can't provide you a quote about the United States specifically but the whole book is about a global order. It doesn't even take reading between the lines. If you don't understand that the USA was after Britain I don't what to say to you. There is ample evidence that Germany was going to engage with mainland North America.

As far as invading Palestine goes....grab a history of WWII. That should be enough proof. If you need more look to every country Hitler invaded and get back to me.
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#90 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 04:41 AM

What do you mean exactly? It seems they have been quite incompetent at wiping out Israel. Don't you agree? Are you objecting to the word Genocide? What word would you prefer?


I mean that not all the palestinian people want to kill all the israelis ,only the fanatics think this way ,and that by saying this your are displaying your ignorance and stupidity .
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"These are the things to keep in mind. These are not just academic exercises. We're not analyzing the media on Mars or in the eighteenth century or something like that. We're dealing with real human beings who are suffering and dying and being tortured and starving because of policies that we are involved in, we as citizens of democratic societies are directly involved in and are responsible for, and what the media are doing is ensuring that we do not act on our responsibilities, and that the interests of power are served, not the needs of the suffering people, and not even the needs of the American people who would be horrified if they realized the blood that's dripping from their hands because of the way they are allowing themselves to be deluded and manipulated by the system."
Noam Chomsky

Jesus didn’t say yes to everyone. I mean Jesus knew that there was a place for everything and it is not necessarily everyone’s place to come to Australia
Tony Abbott......Current Australian PM




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