Canned response number 682 from the conspiracy theory guide to argument.
Canada votes against UN motion calling on Israel to open up nuclear program to inspection
Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:02 PM
Canned response number 682 from the conspiracy theory guide to argument.
Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:32 PM
So how about the zionist state eh? Oh wait...you're not here to talk about that.
Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:56 PM
Everyone is on Iran's ass like they have already dropped bombs on Israel before. While North Korea goes about quietly advancing their missile technologies that can carry nuclear warheads. Don't worry about Iran, Israel would probably be the first ones to start a nuclear war.
Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:47 PM
Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:59 PM
Interviewer: This isn't your own position, is it? Creveld: Of course not. You asked me what might happen and I've laid it out.
Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Illegitimi non carborundum.
Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:06 PM
Interviewer: This isn't your own position, is it? Creveld: Of course not. You asked me what might happen and I've laid it out.
What you suggest in no way makes the comments any more acceptable, tolerable or palatable.
Furthermore, looking at the true context only makes it worse.
Interviewer: A plan to deport the Palestinians?
Creveld: I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed.
Interviewer:Do you think that the world will allow that kind of ethnic cleansing?
Creveld: That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force.
Interviewer: Wouldn't Israel then become a rogue state?
Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under.
So if this truly is in fact not van Creveld's position (which the nuclear comment certainly is his position), he makes reference to Moshe Dayan, and we can only assume his ilk. Moshe Dayan was an Israeli military leader and politician, having served as both Defense as well as Foreign Ministers.
So then we can conclude the position is that of the Israeli military and government or at very least members therein who are of the ilk of Moshe Dayan (which he is considered a hero and which is also perhaps why van Creveld is but a mere professor).
Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:28 AM
Your passionate anti-zionist and anti-Israel stance is a bit extreme to say the least.
Zionism is not some kind of evil conspiracy like you make it out to be. In past posts you have even tried to connect Zionism and the occult (star of david), as well as Zionism and Nazism (Stern gang negotiations etc). A snippet:
First of all there is no connection between the occult and Zionism: they just happen to share an ancient symbol. It would be as ridiculous to make a connection between the Nazis of the 3rd Reich and ancient India because they both used the swastika as a symbol. BTW, the star of david was also used as a decoration in Islamic art: do you want to connect Islam to the occult too?
Secondly your argument clearly overlooks the fact that the Star of David predates Zionism as a Jewish symbol centuries before the Zionist movement began, and became a very well known Jewish symbol in the decades preceding the birth of Zionism. If you want to connect Zionism with the occult you would logically have to connect Jews in general to the occult, which would fly in the face of your efforts to be anti-Israel while not anti-Jewish. While I hesitate to call you anti-Jewish, as you have consistently seemed to draw the distinction between Israel and the Jews, you evidently have at the least been consuming anti-semetic propaganda cloaked as anti-zionist while not understanding it as such. There is a lot of this material around, and I suggest at least balancing your consumption of it with that of opposing viewpoints.
Zionism as a movement was actually begun in the late 19th century as a response to the intense persecution that Jews felt in Europe. As the founder of the modern Zionist movement Theodor Herzl described in his 1896 “Der Judenstaat”.
It is considered one of the most important texts of early Zionism. As expressed in this book, Herzl envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century. He argued that the best way to avoid anti-Semitism in Europe was to create this independent Jewish state. Herzl, who had lived as a secular, largely assimilated Jew, was fluent in neither Hebrew nor Yiddish. His lack of contact with Jewish culture and intellectual currents, and his limited contact with Jews less assimilated than he was probably the reason he abandoned fundamental Jewish principals and rekindled Zionism with this text. The book was used to encourage Jews from all across Europe to purchase land in Palestine.[needs citation] In Der Judenstaat, Herzl noted the possibility of a Jewish state in Argentina.
Herzl popularized the term "Zionism", which was coined by Nathan Birnbaum. The nationalist movement culminated in the birth of the State of Israel in 1948, though Zionism continues to be connected with political support of the State of Israel.
The main argument of the book is as follows. After centuries of various restrictions, hostilities, and occasional pogroms, the Jews of Europe have been reduced to living in Ghettos. The higher class is forced to deal with angry mobs and, so experiences a great deal of discomfort; the lower class lives in despair. Middle-class professionals are distrusted, and the statement "don't buy from Jews" causes much anxiety among Jewish people. It is reasonable to assume that the Jews will not be left in peace. Neither a change in the feelings of non-Jews nor a movement to merge into the surrounds of Europe offers much hope to the Jewish people. Jews "introduce" anti-Semitism wherever they go:
"The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers. Wherever it does not exist, it is brought in together with Jewish immigrants. We are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries - see, for instance, France - so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America."
The creation of a Jewish State may be a possible solution to the problem faced by Europe's Jews.
Herzl opposed the efforts already made by Zionist groups to settle Jews in Ottoman-controlled Palestine, arguing that "important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration.” (Quoted from The Jewish State, translated by Sylvie d’Avigdor, Nutt, London, 1896, and reprinted by Dover, 1988, p. 95.)
For this reason, Herzl, both in Der Judenstaat, and in his political activity on behalf of Zionism, concentrated his efforts on securing official legal sanction from the Ottoman authorities.
Modern Zionism is in fact a plan by jews to find a homeland in order to avoid being killed. Of course it did not prevent the Holocaust, which saw approximately 6 million Jews killed…over 1/3 of the World’s Jewish population. To show the significance of this to the Jewish population, 1/3 of the world’s current Muslim population is over 560 million.
It was the holocaust that really was the mother of Israel…as hundreds of thousands of Jews fled to Palestine before the holocaust and afterwards...sometimes simply because quotas on jewish refugees to other countries were met and Palestine was the last option. The circumstances of Israel’s birth, during a genocide of the Jewish people, is one of the reasons why Israelis were so fierce to defend the country before, during and after its formation. Guerilla warfare tactics including terrorist attacks were used by some Israelis at the outset to try to accomplish their goals. This is a fact and should not be ignored. However your completely one sided viewpoint, viewing all Arab violence and terror attacks as justified "louder and more prominent vociferation" while viewing any violence by Israel as, as, to paraphrase, "terrorist actions of zionists" gets old after a while. Should Israel have been formed? Maybe not...but it is here now. This saying is as true as ever, "If Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be no more war. If Israelis laid down their arms, there would be no more Israel."
In short as I am short of time:
You still don’t seem to understand “Palestine”. Or you don’t understand “tongue in cheek”. Or both.
While some Orthodox Jews may not support the Jewish state, most Jews do. In fact some Muslims do too:
Muslim supporters of Israel are Muslims who support self-determination for the Jewish people, and a homeland for them in Israel.
Some Muslim clerics, such as Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, Director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community, and Imam Dr Muhammad Al-Hussaini believe that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel, are in accordance with teachings of Islam. Some Muslim supporters of Israel consider themselves 'Muslim Zionists'. Notable Muslims who publicly support Zionism include Dr. Tawfik Hamid,Tashbih Sayyed, a Pakistani-American scholar, journalist, and author, and the Bangladeshi journalist Salah Choudhury. Additional Muslim people who voiced public support for Israel included figures such as Irshad Manji, Salim Mansur,Abdurrahman Wahid, Mithal al-Alusi, Abdullah Saad Al-Hadlaq, Zuhdi Jasser and Khaleel Mohammed.
In the Muslim world, support of Israel is a minority orientation, and supporters of Israel have at some occasions faced intolerance and violence.
According to British-based Imam Muhammad Al-Hussaini, traditional commentators from the 8th and 9th century onwards have uniformly interpreted the Qur'an to say explicitly that the Land of Israel has been given by God to the Jewish people as a perpetual covenant. Hussaini bases his argument upon Qur'an 5:21 in which Moses declares: "O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has prescribed for you, and turn not back in your traces, to turn about losers." He cites the Qur'an commentator Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, who says that this statement is "a narrative from God … concerning the saying of Moses … to his community from among the children of Israel and his order to them according to the order of God to him, ordering them to enter the holy land." He argued that this promise to the Jews is ever lasting, and further said: "It was never the case during the early period of Islam … that there was any kind of sacerdotal attachment to Jerusalem as a territorial claim." This interpretation of the promise to the Jews as ever-lasting is not uniformly accepted by all Islamic commentators 
According to a translation by the Islamic Law scholar Khaleel Mohammed, Ibn Kathir (1301–1373) interpreted Qur'an 5:20-21 using the following terms: "'That which God has written for you' i.e. That which God has promised to you by the words of your father Israel that it is the inheritance of those among you who believe."
The 19th Century
In 1873, Shah of Persia Nasser al-Din Shah Qajar met with British Jewish leaders, including Sir Moses Montefiore, during his journey to Europe. At that time, the Persian king suggested that the Jews buy land and establish a state for the Jewish people.[dead link]
Early 20th century
Faisal (right) with Chaim Weizmann (also wearing Arab dress as a sign of friendship) in Syria, 1918.
After World War I, the Sharif of Mecca, Hussein bin Ali and his son, the King Feisal of Hijaz and then of Iraq, proclaimed pro-Zionist views. According to Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, the Wahhabi position, in contrast, was extremely anti-Zionist.[self-published source?]
On March 23, 1918, Al Qibla, the daily newspaper of Mecca, printed the following words in support of the Balfour Declaration of 1917:
On 3 January 1919, Hussein's son, king Faisal I of Iraq and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, President of the World Zionist Organization signed the Faisal–Weizmann Agreement for Arab-Jewish cooperation, in which Faisal conditionally accepted the Balfour Declaration based on the fulfillment of British wartime promises of development of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and on which subject he made the following statement:
"The resources of the country [Palestine] are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants (...) we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, and America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons [abna'ihi-l-asliyin], for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles [jaliya] to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and all things connected to the land."
"We Arabs... look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through; we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home... I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us, so that the countries in which we are mutually interested may once again take their places in the community of the civilised peoples of the world." "
As'ad Shukeiri, a Muslim scholar (‘alim) of the Acre area, and the father of PLO founder Ahmad Shukeiri, has rejected the values of the Palestinian Arab national movement and was opposed to the anti-Zionist movement. He met routinely with Zionist officials and had a part in every pro-Zionist Arab organization from the beginning of the British Mandate, publicly rejecting Mohammad Amin al-Husayni’s use of Islam to attack Zionism.
In the 1920s, the Muslim National Associations was established by Muslim Arabs who were employed by the Palestine Zionist Executive. The president of the Muslim National Associations and the mayor of Haifa, Hassan Bey Shukri, has founded the organization with Sheikh Musa Hadeib from the village ofDawaymeh near Hebron and head of the farmers' party of Mt. Hebron.
In July 1921, Shukri sent a telegram to the British government, declaring support for the Balfour Declaration and Zionist immigration to British Mandate Palestine:
In 1929, Hadeib was murdered in Jerusalem, supposedly for his collaboration with the Zionists.
We strongly protest against the attitude of the said delegation concerning the Zionist question. We do not consider the Jewish people as an enemy whose wish is to crush us. On the contrary. We consider the Jews as a brotherly people sharing our joys and troubles and helping us in the construction of our common country.
In the late 1930's, Amir Abdullah, ruler of Transjordan, and the pro-Hashemite leader of Syria, Abd al-Rahman Shahabandar, offered the Zionists to create a Jewish autonomy in Palestine under the Transjordanian throne, although they did not propose an independent Jewish state.
A number of Muslim groups that have histories of conflict with Arabs, including Kurds and Berbers, have also voiced support for Israel and Zionism.Ramin H. Artin of the Kurdish-American Education Society, argues that the creation of Israel has been "a thorn in the eye of fascists who would rather eliminate the Jewish state". He concluded that an Israeli-Kurdish alliance is "natural", and that sincere mutual respect and recognition of each other’s rights can lead to peace and prosperity.
Palazzi noted that although in present days support for Israel among Muslims is a minority orientation, there are some exceptions, such as former President of Indonesia and leader of Nadwat al-Ulema, Shaykh Abdurrahman Wahid, and the Grand Mufti of the Russian Federation, Shaykh Talgat Tajuddin, the Mufti of European Russia, Shaykh Salman Farid, who wrote a fatwa against the intifadah. According to Palazzi, more examples for Pro-Israeli Muslim clerics are the Muftis of Chechnya, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.[self-published source?]
Israeli Arab supporters of Israel
During the Israeli War of Independence of 1948, many Bedouin switched sides to join the Zionist forces in opposing the invasion by the regular Arab armies.
Negev Bedouins, a Muslim minority which includes about 12% of Israeli Arabs, tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel. Many Negev Bedouins serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Each year, between 5%-10% of the Bedouin of draft age volunteer for the IDF (unlike Druze and Jewish Israelis, they are not required by law to do so).
During the Palestinian Arab national movement’s formation, Bedouins often perceived their tribe as their principal focus of identity, and they generally did not view themselves as a component of the emerging Palestinian identity.
Bedouins had long standing ties with nearby Jewish communities. Bedouins of Tuba-Zangariyye helped defend these communities in the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. Formal co-operation between Jews and Bedouin began in 1946, when tribal leader Sheik Hussein Mohammed Ali Abu Yussef of the al-Heib tribe sent more than 60 of his men to fight alongside Zionist forces, forming the Pal-Heib unit of the Haganah. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Pal-Heib unit defended Jewish communities in the Upper Galilee against Syria. Sheik Abu Yussef was quoted in 1948 as saying, "Is it not written in the Koran that the ties of neighbors are as dear as those of relations? Our friendship with the Jews goes back many years. We felt we could trust them and they learned from us too".
Maj Fehd Fallah, a Bedouin from the village of Saad in the Israeli occupied Golan Heights said in an interview: "Yes, I have fought against Muslims in Gaza," he says. "And I would fight again if I had to," he added. "Israeli Muslims who don't serve in the IDF should be ashamed for not serving their country."
Ismail Khaldi is the first Bedouin deputy consul of the State of Israel and the highest ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service. Khaldi is a strong advocate of Israel. While acknowledging that the state of Israeli Bedouin minority is not ideal, he said
I am a proud Israeli - along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deals honestly. By any yardstick you choose -- educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation -- Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East.
Israeli Druze and Circassian Muslims
The Circassians in Israel are non Arab, predominantly Sunni Muslims. The Circassians have had a good relations with the Jewish community in Israel since the beginning of the Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel. The Circassians community in Israel helped the illegal immigration (Ha'apala) of Jews into Palestine During the British Mandate and fought on the Israeli side of the War of Independence. In 1948, when the State of Israel was created, Circassians of Palestine did not migrate to neighboring countries, rather made the choice to stay within the borders of the new state and embrace full Israeli citizenship. Like the Druzepopulation, since 1958 male Circassians perform Israeli mandatory military service upon reaching the age of majority, while females do not. Many Circassians in Israel are employed in the security forces, including in the Border Guard, the Israel Defence Forces, the police and the Israel Prison Service. The percentage of the army recruits among the Circassian community in Israel is particularly high. This loyalty to Israel is often considered as an act of betrayal by the Arab Muslims, who see Circassians as traitors to the Ummah.
The Druze are a religious community found who consider themselves an Islamic Unist, reformatory sect. The Druze consider themselves to be Muslim, although they are considered non-Muslim by the general Islamic community. The Druze mostly do not identify with the cause of Arab nationalism. The bond between the Jewish and Druze is commonly known by the term "a covenant of blood". Druze citizens are prominent in the Israel Defense Forces and inpolitics, and a considerable number of Israeli Druze soldiers have fallen in Israel's wars since the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Reda Mansour, a Druze poet, historian and diplomat, explained: “We are the only non-Jewish minority that is drafted into the military, and we have an even higher percentage in the combat units and as officers than the Jewish members themselves. So we are considered a very nationalistic, patriotic community.” In 2008 more than 94% of Druze youngsters classified themselves as "Druze-Israelis" in the religious and national context. Five Druze lawmakers currently have been elected to serve in the 18th Knesset, a disproportionately large number considering their population.
Rafik Halabi, an Israeli Druze television correspondent and former Israeli military officer, characterizes himself as an Israeli patriot. Opening his 1982 book "The West Bank Story: An Israel Arab's View of Both Sides of a Tangled Conflict", he wrote, "I am an Israeli patriot, although I am not a Jew".
Salman Abu-Salah from the village Majdal Shams established the "Zionist Druze Club" in the Golan in the 1970s and advocated petitioning for Israeli citizenship, even prior to the Israeli annexation of the Golan heights in 1980. Yusuf Nasr al-Din, who believes that the Arab-Israeli Conflict is a historical struggle between Zionism and Arabism, established the Druze Zionist Movement, recommending that the Druze show solidarity with Israel and adopt the national Zionist ideology of the Jewish people.
The Zionist Druze Circle
In 1973, Amel Nasser A-Din founded the Zionist Druze Circle, a group whose aim was to encourage the Druze to support the state of Israel fully and unreservedly. A-Din, a Likud member of the Knesset, has lost his son in the War of Attrition between Israel and Egypt in 1969. In 2007, Nabiah A-Din, the chairman of the forum of the Druze and Circassian authority heads, and head of the Kasra Adia municipality, criticized the "multi-cultural" Israeli constitution proposed by the Israeli Arab organization Adalah, saying that he finds it unacceptable. "The state of Israel is Jewish state as well as a democratic state that espouses equality and elections. We invalidate and reject everything that the Adalah organization is requesting," he said. According to A-din,the fate of Druze and Circassians in Israel is intertwined with that of the state. "This is a blood pact, and a pact of the living. We are unwilling to support a substantial alteration to the nature of this state, to which we tied our destinies prior to its establishment," he said. As of 2005 there were 7,000 registered members in the Druze Zionist movement. In 2009, the movement held a Druze Zionist youth conference with 1,700 participants.
Other Arab Israelis identifying with Israel
Ali Wahib serves as the highest ranking Muslim officer in the Israel Defense Forces, and originates from a the Galillee village of Reineh. He serves as the operations officer at an IDF ground forces training base, and describes himself as a "Zionist Israeli Arab". Wahib grew up in a society where Holocaust denialwas common, but visited Poland while serving in the IDF and was shocked, saying that "there was something very powerful in the fact that I was standing on Polish soil, holding an Israeli flag and donning the uniform of the Israeli army, but this time from a position of power." According to Wahib, there are quite a lot of Israeli Arabs who want to enlist, but do not do so since they don’t know how this will be accepted by their environment. In regards to being a Muslim, Wahib explained that he believes in the Muslim faith, and will never abandon it, but believes that "Zionism ... is something that fully represents my sense of belonging to the State of Israel and to Israeli society, and the immense commitment I have to protecting and guarding the country of which I am part."
Acceptance of Israel among Israeli Arabs
In a 2004 survey conducted by Professor Sammy Smooha of the University of Haifa Jewish-Arab Center, "Index of Jewish-Arab Relations in Israel – 2004", 84.9% of Israeli Arabs stated that Israel has a right to exist as an independent state, and 70% noted that it has a right to exist as a democratic, Jewish state. A Truman Institute survey from 2005 found that 63% of the Arab citizens accept the principle that Israel is the state of the Jewish people.
More later perhaps…I am completely out of time.
Edited by Coda, 16 December 2012 - 04:51 AM.
Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:37 PM
Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:43 PM
Canada is looking bad; it should be the just the Harper Govt and not the rest of Canada that looks bad.
Its like theyre trying to make Canada a rogue state or something. Its ridiculous.
Harper should've been President of the United States, where more Americans would've openly supported Israel. Obama would've been better suited as PM of Canada.
Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:42 PM
Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:19 PM
Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:12 AM
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