Appropriateness of F35 for Canada questioned as costs projected to be $40B

[Pouria]

The X-47 and other drones are nasically reuseable cruise missles, using elements of the technology that's going into the F-35.

It won't be until computers become much smarter, a near human level of intelligence at least, and until those true AIs are small and cheaper enough to put into an airframe, one that's probably going to have to be much more capable than today's drones, will you have something that can be considered a true replacement for manned multirole fighters.

Anyways, 65 fighters is actually a respectable large number when you consider that Russia and China, military giants with a lot more commitments, will probably only be able to field 400 4.5 and 5th generation fighters each. Of course they have a lot more tools in the toolbox and won't be as dependent on their fighter fleet as we will.

[Coda]

Why do we even care about having 65 fighter jets? We have US to the south and they would help Canada out if there was a war going on. Its not like Canada would be fighting on their own. Canada should focus less on military spending and more on providing essential services to its citizens.

[Lockout Casualty]

The next great wars will be fought over natural resources, and by many experts Canada is ranked 3rd behind only Russia and the United States in that category.

Apparently you already think Canada is a puppet of the United States:

Do you really think instigating a military policy that leaves Canada's very existence to the whim of the United States if it is threatened by any other nation is a good idea? I think a more balanced approach would be a better idea.

[Coda]

Can you explain how Canada's security would be any different if we had no military budget?

[Electro Rock]

I think 20 years will put computer technology right where you say it needs to be. And that's if we're talking about fully autonomous drones.

65 is neither here nor there. If we can't repel Russia, and they're the only ones who feasibly pose a threat in the arctic, what point is there?

Try as I may, I fail to see Canada's need for such military spending. Fact of the matter is that Canada's forces only engage in combat half way around the world, in areas where we have no interests, for reasons completely unrelated to any Canadian.

[hudson bay rules]

Rather 1000 drones and 2 nukes

[key2thecup]

[Coda]

What a joke... no one is talking about dismantling the military.

By not buying the F35's and going with a 4th gen, is hardly considered "dismantling"

No one is saying Canada is a puppet of the US.

Russia hasn't started wars since the collapse, the Chechen wars we're secessionists not a foreign country. The Georgia conflict Russia was provoked.

China, hasn't started been in a war since '79 with Vietnam. They have been known throughout history, and now in modern times to have a defense first military. They don't have the offensive capabilities to launch a invasion over the Pacific. They are still in the process of modernizing there military.

Canada and the USA have the most unique friendship on this planet, that will not waiver amidst a World War 3. Cause that's what a Russian or Chinese invasion would be ok, lets be serious here. The world knows if a foreign army steps on our turf with hostility;

A: They would immediately be at war with our allies

B: If they ultimately didn't retreat, they would have LGM-30 Minuteman Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles raining down on there homeland.

There is a reason Canadian military officials are kept at Cheyenne.

[Ghostsof1915]

Or we can talk with Sweden and buy Saab JAS 39 Gripens. 60 of them would be $3.6 billion, so for $7.2 billion we could have 120 of them. The only issue with the Gripen is they have only a combat radius of 800km.

The Eurofighter Typhoon costs about $90 million per unit ($30 million more than the Gripen) but they have a combat radius of 1,389 km.

Total cost would be around $5.9 billion for 65 units and 120 units would be $10.8 billion. The advantage both of these airframes is they are in service NOW. In other words they've had time to get the bugs out of the systems.

When America tries to get one fighter aircraft to do everything it's either great (F-86 Sabre, F-4 Phantom) or a colossal money pit (F-111).

Sadly the F-35 project seems to be leaning towards the F-111. I think it's a bit much to ask for one fighter to do everything including v/stol like initially planned.

[Ghostsof1915]

I'd rather risk a fighter that may not work and keep jobs in Canada, than get a fighter that doesn't work built in the US.

Screw you Harper!

[Tearloch7]

You should pay closer attention.

[Coda]

You should try to be more condescending .. it looks good on you ..

[Lockout Casualty]

Ok.

The mindset seems to be that since Canada has a good relationship with countries like the United States, China, and Russia, a military is not needed.

This assumes that world conditions do not change. The fact is that the trend is towards a rapid decrease in the huge gap between the wealth of the west and the east. Resources in China and India are already being strained, and the economic revolution is only a couple of decades old. There are simply not enough natural resources in Asia (or even the entire world) to allow countries like China and India to achieve the kind of middle-class population Canada and the United States have. Just think: their are less natural resources in China than in Canada, and 40 times the population.

Rendering Canada completely defenceless to everybody and anybody at this juncture would simply be a bad move, no matter how strong Canada's relationship with the United States is.

Another assumption is that Canada would continue to have the kind of friendship it has with the United States. Ironically one of the primary reasons Canada has such a strong friendship is because Canada has always been a military Ally of the United States, willing to help out in NATO missions where it has saw fit. This does not mean Canada has been a puppet of the United States: see Vietnam and Iraq for instances when Canada took a pass on joining the States.

A good way of seriously damaging that Friendship would be to dismantle the military, ending any possibility of Canada allying with the U.S. military, and in effect forcing the United States to use its citizens' tax dollars to defend Canada. If you want to give the United States a good excuse to invade Canada and making it the 51st state, that would be one of the best.

[Coda]

Our air force is not a deterrent, nor is it an impediment to an invader (unless said invader in Norway or Denmark). There are a handful of nations on the planet with the ability to project force in our part of the world, none of which we come remotely close to matching in air/navy/army. By far the strongest of said nations is our closest ally and cultural kin. The second strongest (I imagine Russia, still) has its own wealth of resources. Who do you see invading Canada? What role will our minuscule forces play in said invasion? This is without the world conditions changing. What about if they do?

Assuming world conditions change, wealth inequality shrinks, China and India are hungry for resources, and Canada has more than it needs. Will we be able to defend our resources from China or India with a purchase of 65 gen 5 jets? What if our bonds with the US loosen? Do you propose we build our military to feel secure in such a situation too?

Canada is already defenseless when taking into consideration how many nations, and which, are actually capable of being a threat. Canada cannot and should not get grandiose ideas of being a world power, which is precisely what it would take for Canada do be self-securing.

Would it have an effect on our relationship with the US? Likely. What effect will it have? They certainly won't turn into a threat to us, not anymore than they were before. Nor will they sever any relationships that benefit them, won't cut off their nose to spite the face, as it were. At the end of the day, it's a domestic issue. Not like Canada's forces play a pivotal role in any conflict, ever.

I don't think you really addressed my question. We're still just as vulnerable to invasion by the players with such ability.

[Lockout Casualty]

If Russia were to invade strictly by air, maybe you're right Coda. However, Canada's security still entirely depends on the US.

Russia is probably the only country who could, and the one country who has no reason to, fight a land war in Canada. To compare fighting Canada to fighting Afghanistan is good for a laugh, I'll give you that.

I'm not underestimating Canada by saying it has never played a pivotal role. The nation has always played a small role in conflicts between much larger, much more powerful nations and never affected any outcome. That is a fact.

You make a good point that we need "something" to shadow the Russians. Yet the reason the Russians threaten to intrude is to test our response. It's not like a game of risk, where if you remove the army someone can just take your crap. Canada is one of the biggest, most stable economies on the planet with natural resources to last us a hundred years. I don't think we'll be able to hear the world's laughter over the sound of being so awesome. Let's just hope the Finns don't invade and spread their Euro-socialism.

Canada would have done well to stay out of Afghanistan. At least we avoided Iraq (no thanks to Mr. Harper). I think the war on terror is the last example to bring up when defending a national military, frankly.

[MikeGillis58]

Canada should consider buying the Russian Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 jets. These jets are a lot cheaper than the F-35s.

[aeromotacanucks]

and Russian fighters can operate in very extreme conditions, such as snow, sand and even jungle...

and of course, they are cheaper, stronger (more resistent), carry more weapons and do the same thing that the USA jets do costing 40% less...

the only problem is the maintenance costs, but it can be solved by some military agreement...

Russia simply don´t have reason to invade Canada, Canada didn´t do anything to Russia, for them would be easier trade with Canada, make some agreement with. them invade USA

[Electro Rock]

Why is everybody talking about WW2 style land invasions? This isn't the 1940s and nuclear weapons and the fact that nobody has a 10+ million man military necessary to do that anymore makes that extremely unrealistic.

Somewhat less unlikely is an internal attack by infiltrated forces or limited occupation of choice areas in the far north.

More likely still is the number of drug, arms and human smuggling shipments that would fly in and out every day without some kind of ability to intercept them. Or simply being forced to give up all kinds of concessions to whoever with the realization we couldn't do anything about a long list of actions besides make diplomatic protests.

[elvis15]

So apparently the plan to buy F-35's has been scrapped anyway:

F-35s weren’t killed before now because of U.S. election

Faced with a KPMG audit showing the proposed 65-aircraft F-35 purchase would have cost taxpayers upwards of $30 billion (according to some reports as much as $40 billion), over a 36-year span, the government had no option but to reboot, sources familiar with the decision say. “Can you imagine now taking an additional $23 billion out of the defence budget over the next 30 years?” asked one. “You would simply have an air force. That would be the Canadian military. You would have nothing else.”

On tap now is a competition among at least five aircraft, including Dassault’s Rafale, Boeing’s Super Hornet, Saab’s Gripen, the Eurofighter Typhoon, and Lockheed-Martin’s F-35, to replace Canada’s ageing CF-18s. Industry players have quietly been led to expect this will flow from the current “options analysis” underway in Ottawa.

At a cabinet committee meeting Tuesday, sources familiar with the discussion say, it was decided that the F-35 as a sole-source program could not go ahead, given the contents of the KPMG report. What remained unclear was a strategy for selling the reversal to Canadians, and for dealing with the fallout — including the potential impact on the Canadian aerospace firms and allies in the F-35 consortium.

...

[inane]

Look at the ridiculous graphic....such a waste of money, resources, time, everything. Think of the things we could do with that money, or not spend that money at all.