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#241 Kassian

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

Interesting read:



http://www.theatlant...-deaths/260189/


This is true, in Waikiki on almost every block there is a person with a double sided sign placed over themselves and they hand out flyers for a firing range. In the panflet it shows which weapons you can test at the range, many being military assault rifles.
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#242 :D

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

Damn, just woke up and read this in bed, was like a kick in the stomach.
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#243 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

I'm doing my PhD. I do research for a living. Methodological issues are not grasping at straws, they are the crux of any research-related paper. Issues with a study's methodology calls into question any of the results that are presented. Your translation of methodological issues as 'who the ???? knows', is entirely incorrect, because we do know what the issue is. The issue is that the study that supported concealed gun permits was not actually able to show that the crime rate was reduced because of the law permitting concealed firearms.

That's likely because you guys are arguing about stupid and pointless stuff. Are strawberries a deterrent to nuclear winter?

As far as the US is concerned..

Guns only may be a deterrent to a crime. There's too many types of crimes, too many ways to commit a crime, to many variables that caused a crime, to simply blame one thing like a gun for deterring a crime or some swath of crimes.

Gun control laws do not work and the premise is simple -- gun control laws only limit the LEGAL usage of guns. Criminals in the US, who have no problem attaining a gun, or any items to kill someone or a bunch of people, do not give two flying s***s about what is legal and what is not. Why would they care about gun control laws? Laws are not a deterrent to people who don't care about them. Does one really need a study to figure this out?

And in the bigger picture...

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1897 people in the US were killed with knives/sharp objects in 2008. Stop knives before they stop you.

^_^

Edited by zaibatsu, 14 December 2012 - 05:02 PM.

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#244 Tearloch7

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:00 PM

Well I don't know about you but I wouldn't be going around trying to rob people or commit other crimes if I knew that potentially every single person in the city could be carrying a concealed weapon. Makes sense that it would lower crime rates


I would just shoot em first and THEN take what I wanted .. it is like cops wearing bullet proof vests .. just calls for a head shot ..
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#245 Electro Rock

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:09 PM

Nor do I. In fact, I think bringing up gun control is the right thing to do.

I brought it up when the Aurora shooting happened in July and if people in the US had listened, just maybe some or all of those kindergarteners would be alive to make Christmas something more than a living hell for their parents this year.


How would you do that though?

I mean try to hold a significant portion of your population at gunpoint while you search their property, and hope you don't trigger an insurrection or the separation of multiple states?

Even here in Canada, back in the heyday of the Cretien Liberals, a sweeping seizure of firearms was viewed as being too unpredictable in its consequences.
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#246 inane

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:11 PM

The number of people killed vs response to those ways has never been remotely considered.

We lose our collective shiate when this happens, but far more people die daily in car crashes. The reaction to that? Ho hum, so what. I would imagine more people die from falling fridges than terrorism but look where we're spending our money there.

To think we'd act according to the actual need would mean logic and rational thinking, something politicians and the throbbing masses aren't interested in.
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#247 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:12 PM

The number of people killed vs response to those ways has never been remotely considered.

We lose our collective shiate when this happens, but far more people die daily in car crashes. The reaction to that? Ho hum, so what. I would imagine more people die from falling fridges than terrorism but look where we're spending our money there.

To think we'd act according to the actual need would mean logic and rational thinking, something politicians and the throbbing masses aren't interested in.

The media extensively covers this stuff which, no surprise, compels the knee-jerk reaction.. which tells you something about the predictability of the masses and how they jump on the issue right on cue.

Edited by zaibatsu, 14 December 2012 - 05:13 PM.

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#248 Tearloch7

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

R.I.P.



A "seasonal" message for us all .. my sadness is overwhelming ..
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#249 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

How would you do that though?

I mean try to hold a significant portion of your population at gunpoint while you search their property, and hope you don't trigger an insurrection or the separation of multiple states?

Even here in Canada, back in the heyday of the Cretien Liberals, a sweeping seizure of firearms was viewed as being too unpredictable in its consequences.


I already said that I'd outlaw several types of ammunition and tightly control the rest.

You can keep your guns, but when your ammo runs out, you're going to be left with a very expensive club with which you can attempt mass murder...
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#250 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

The number of people killed vs response to those ways has never been remotely considered.

We lose our collective shiate when this happens, but far more people die daily in car crashes. The reaction to that? Ho hum, so what. I would imagine more people die from falling fridges than terrorism but look where we're spending our money there.

To think we'd act according to the actual need would mean logic and rational thinking, something politicians and the throbbing masses aren't interested in.


We "need" automobiles, trucks, etc.

Absolutely no-one "needs" a gun.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#251 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

I already said that I'd outlaw several types of ammunition and tightly control the rest.

You can keep your guns, but when your ammo runs out, you're going to be left with a very expensive club with which you can attempt mass murder...

Problem: There's a whole lot of gun owners who that punishes.. and chances are very good they aren't mass murderers or even criminals.

Also, good luck in controlling billions of bullets.

We "need" automobiles, trucks, etc.

Absolutely no-one "needs" a gun.

Says you.

Thankfully the US Constitution (which was written by people I have significant respect for) says otherwise.

Edited by zaibatsu, 14 December 2012 - 05:22 PM.

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#252 M A K A V E L I 96

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

It'll be interesting to find out what his motive was for doing that to his mom's class of students. Not that it really matters I guess...


Probably something like his mom spent too much time dedicated to the school and not enough at home, so he killer her and her students.
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#253 Columbo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

The number of people killed vs response to those ways has never been remotely considered.

We lose our collective shiate when this happens, but far more people die daily in car crashes. The reaction to that? Ho hum, so what.


Not even remotely true, we have hundreds upon thousands of traffic laws and vehicle safety requirements designed to prevent deadly car crashes. If the States had even a fraction of that many regulations concerning guns, sh*t like this would stop happening on such a regular basis.
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#254 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

The media extensively covers this stuff which, no surprise, compels the knee-jerk reaction.. which tells you something about the predictability of the masses and how they jump on the issue right on cue.


Knee jerk? This is what you said the last time.

How many times do we have to bring it up before it stpos being "knee-jerk"?
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#255 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

Problem: There's a whole lot of gun owners who that punishes.. and chances are very good they aren't mass murderers or even criminals.

Also, good luck in controlling billions of bullets.


Says you.

Thankfully the US Constitution (which was written by people I have significant respect for) says otherwise.


Oh, do tell: What do you "need" a gun for?
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#256 inane

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

Not even remotely true, we have hundreds upon thousands of traffic laws and vehicle safety requirements designed to prevent deadly car crashes. If the States had even a fraction of that many regulations concerning guns, sh*t like this would stop happening on such a regular basis.


Who cares how many rules we have, we still have way more people dying. If stopping people from dying needlessly is the objective, then you should work on stopping crashes. Or whatever else is causing unncessary deaths.

But to focus on the high profile, relatively rare-events that cause significantly fewer deaths...well, that's dumb.
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#257 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

Knee jerk? This is what you said the last time.

How many times do we have to bring it up before it stpos being "knee-jerk"?

Do you even know what knee jerk is? I'll help you:

The overreaction and typical calls to ban or ridiculously limit guns right when an incident like this happens, is what makes it knee jerk.

Might want to look at what the driving force compelling this issue to stay atop things, irrationally, mind you, rather than get to the bottom of what actually caused this to happen.

Oh, do tell: What do you "need" a gun for?

Protection from criminals, protection from government, and if I feel so compelled, to legally shoot something. I tend to live in urban areas (especially when I was in the US) so I'm not out in places like a friend of mine in rural Alaska where people use their guns for hunting to eat, I'm fairly sure that's a legitimate issue they shouldn't have to run by you.

There's obviously plenty of reasons what a gun is needed for, unfortunately there's too many people who wish to so fervently trivialise rights because they personally don't see a reason to use them.

Edited by zaibatsu, 14 December 2012 - 05:30 PM.

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#258 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

Newtown, Conn. had one murder in 10 years before today.

Wow.
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#259 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

The key was to have tight gun restrictions in the first place. The key is to prevent problems before they occur. And now that it's out of control it's probably too late to fix it.
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#260 Down by the River

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:27 PM

That's likely because you guys are arguing about stupid and pointless stuff. Are strawberries a deterrent to nuclear winter?

As far as the US is concerned..

Guns only may be a deterrent to a crime. There's too many types of crimes, too many ways to commit a crime, to many variables that caused a crime, to simply blame one thing like a gun for deterring a crime or some swath of crimes.

Gun control laws do not work and the premise is simple -- gun control laws only limit the LEGAL usage of guns. Criminals in the US, who have no problem attaining a gun, or any items to kill someone or a bunch of people, do not give two flying s***s about what is legal and what is not. Why would they care about gun control laws? Laws are not a deterrent to people who don't care about them. Does one really need a study to figure this out?


1897 people in the US were killed with knives/sharp objects in 2008. Stop knives before they stop you.

^_^


Just because its something you are not able to understand, doesn't make it unimportant. You are suggesting that cause/effect relationships are not important.
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#261 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

Problem: There's a whole lot of gun owners who that punishes.. and chances are very good they aren't mass murderers or even criminals.

Also, good luck in controlling billions of bullets.


You and I have a very different view on what constitutes "punishment". Besides, shouldn't something that is potentially lethal be controlled? Common sense would say yes. Unfortunately, that seems to be a commodity in short supply south of the 49th.

And I think it would be a lot easier to control bullets than it would be the guns that fire them. Take 'em off the shelves. When the ones you have are gone, then you'll need to jump through some hoops to replenish your supply.

...and I'd trade the lives of 20 innocent children for some inconvenience to responsible gun owners every day of the week.
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#262 Columbo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

Who cares how many rules we have, we still have way more people dying. If stopping people from dying needlessly is the objective, then you should work on stopping crashes. Or whatever else is causing unncessary deaths.

But to focus on the high profile, relatively rare-events that cause significantly fewer deaths...well, that's dumb.


Huh? But we DO try to stop people from having car crashes. Imagine how many thousands would die if there were no traffic laws or vehicle safety standards. You were talking about response (or lack thereof) and clearly there are more regulations regarding driving than there are regarding guns.

Also the reason the number of deaths is higher is that so many people are driving every day. Not as many are taking loaded guns to elementary schools every day. The amount of deaths per incident is not even comparable. Plus driving (as a whole) is a necessity, taking a gun into a school isn't.
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#263 M A K A V E L I 96

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

But to focus on the high profile, relatively rare-events that cause significantly fewer deaths...well, that's dumb.


Why focus on airport security after 9/11. After all that was a relatively rare / high profile event. Your car accidents kill a lot more than that did as well. Free on board box cutters for everyone!
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#264 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

Protection from criminals, protection from government, and if I feel so compelled, to legally shoot something. br />


So you need a gun to protect you from guns....

...gotcha

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 14 December 2012 - 05:32 PM.

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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#265 inane

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

Huh? But we DO try to stop people from having car crashes. Imagine how many thousands would die if there were no traffic laws or vehicle safety standards. You were talking about response (or lack thereof) and clearly there are more regulations regarding driving than there are regarding guns.

Also the reason the number of deaths is higher is that so many people are driving every day. Not as many are taking loaded guns to elementary schools every day. The amount of deaths per incident is not even comparable. Plus driving (as a whole) is a necessity, taking a gun into a school isn't.


Yes we have rules to prevent crashes. They prevent some, but not all. We still have thousands of deaths a year from crashes. So again, if stopping unnecessary deaths is the objective, clearly we need to work on more rules/more enforcement/something else. To focus our money/energy on stopping something else that kills far fewer people a year, how is that an efficient use of resources/time/etc?
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#266 Nathan MacKinnon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

This is disgusting.......

RIP.....
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#267 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

So you need a gun to protect you from guns....

...gotcha

Naw man, I'm Batman. I can just use my fists, or something from my utility belt.

Reality is overrated.

You and I have a very different view on what constitutes "punishment". Besides, shouldn't something that is potentially lethal be controlled? Common sense would say yes. Unfortunately, that seems to be a commodity in short supply south of the 49th.

And I think it would be a lot easier to control bullets than it would be the guns that fire them. Take 'em off the shelves. When the ones you have are gone, then you'll need to jump through some hoops to replenish your supply.

...and I'd trade the lives of 20 innocent children for some inconvenience to responsible gun owners every day of the week.

Bullets cannot be controlled in the manner you expressed.

Controls are already in place that limit who can legally purchase guns and bullets. It's not a free for all.

Being still considered a resident of California, I went through extensive background checks and licensing, and have to prove it. Overreaction is still highly evident.

Edited by zaibatsu, 14 December 2012 - 05:39 PM.

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#268 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

@SUN_TYCHKOWSKI
The Bushmaster assault rifle is available at Wal-Mart in the US.
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#269 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

Yes we have rules to prevent crashes. They prevent some, but not all. We still have thousands of deaths a year from crashes. So again, if stopping unnecessary deaths is the objective, clearly we need to work on more rules/more enforcement/something else. To focus our money/energy on stopping something else that kills far fewer people a year, how is that an efficient use of resources/time/etc?


Perhaps "efficiency" shouldn't be our main criterion, when it comes to the lives of 20 innocent children...
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#270 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:37 PM

Sickening is all I can say. What's also sickening in Chenpeng, China a man with a knife wounded 22 children at an elementary school.

WTF is going on?

My firearms are for paper targets, I pray I never have to fire a shot to defend myself or others.

The sad part is the NRA will spin it as "well if the teachers were armed they could have defended themselves and the children".

I agree that a semi-auto assault rifle with a 30 round clip doesn't sound like you're hunting animals.

Hug your kids tight tonight folks. They are precious.

Pity the 2nd amendment didn't say the right to have horses shall not be infringed, instead of firearms.


Edited by Ghostsof1915, 14 December 2012 - 05:41 PM.

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