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Michigan passes bill allowing concealed weapons in schools, day care centers, stadiums, churches


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#481 Electro Rock

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:30 PM

The US statistics on firearm homicides and firearm assaults do not bear out that view.


http://usatoday30.us...1-29-ms13_N.htm

Gangs are behind 80% of crime in the U.S. according to the FBI, personal observation and the collective accounts of others suggests that number is even higher when it comes to violent crime in the cities.
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#482 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:49 PM

http://usatoday30.us...1-29-ms13_N.htm

Gangs are behind 80% of crime in the U.S. according to the FBI, personal observation and the collective accounts of others suggests that number is even higher when it comes to violent crime in the cities.


But they're not behind the shootings of innocent people in schools, theaters and office buildings.

Gangs are for the most part, shooting at other gang members. The guys shooting up the schools and theaters are just guys who are not playing with a full deck, and have easy access to weapons that are far more than anyone needs for hunting or "protection"....
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#483 Electro Rock

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:21 PM

But they're not behind the shootings of innocent people in schools, theaters and office buildings.

Gangs are for the most part, shooting at other gang members. The guys shooting up the schools and theaters are just guys who are not playing with a full deck, and have easy access to weapons that are far more than anyone needs for hunting or "protection"....


Remember that we're talking about the U.S. here, where gang members and thugs are account for a large portion if not the majority of predatory crimes like home invasions, rapes, assaults, carjackings, etc.

They may not be responsible for suburban school shootings, but they're basically the reason you gave to watch yourself when it comes to avoiding being a victim and tense situations that you can encounter on a day to day basis.
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#484 J.R.

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

America: Jam packed with thugs and gangsters!!

Posted Image

I'm pretty sure I see some hiding behind that school bus!

Edited by J.R., 20 December 2012 - 01:25 PM.

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#485 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

Remember that we're talking about the U.S. here, where gang members and thugs are account for a large portion if not the majority of predatory crimes like home invasions, rapes, assaults, carjackings, etc.

They may not be responsible for suburban school shootings, but they're basically the reason you gave to watch yourself when it comes to avoiding being a victim and tense situations that you can encounter on a day to day basis.



Yes. This is why you have to be careful where you park your car. Avoid going into certain areas of town. Lock your doors, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, people have no choice but to go to school or work and they shouldn't have to worry about going to a movie.
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#486 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

Remember that we're talking about the U.S. here, where gang members and thugs are account for a large portion if not the majority of predatory crimes like home invasions, rapes, assaults, carjackings, etc.

They may not be responsible for suburban school shootings, but they're basically the reason you gave to watch yourself when it comes to avoiding being a victim and tense situations that you can encounter on a day to day basis.

What's really funny is, gang violence is not what gets ire here.. it's assault weapons, the very type of firearms that were banned federally and was let expire because it was shown it had done nothing to prevent gun deaths.

And as shown in this case gun restrictions were in place and did their job, they prevented this guy from buying a gun. Further restrictions would have done the same. On the other hand, this kid took the gun from someone who legally owned firearms, which is exactly the type of thing criminals motivated to do this kind of thing do. It wouldn't have mattered if the assault rifle wasn't present.. he still had two other guns. :lol: There's been nothing shown here that follows the US constitution that would have prevented this occurrence from happening, as the mother was obviously not a criminal.

America: Jam packed with thugs and gangsters!!

Posted Image

I'm pretty sure I see some hiding behind that school bus!

:lol:

Yes. This is why you have to be careful where you park your car. Avoid going into certain areas of town. Lock your doors, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, people have no choice but to go to school or work and they shouldn't have to worry about going to a movie.

This is called common sense.. something that's been prevalent as long as I've been alive, never mind the time I lived in the US.

These shootings shouldn't make one afraid to go to school or work, the odds of being shot are worse than being struck by lightning, and depending on your ability to use your brain about where you go, the odds get better.

The depiction of every nook and cranny of the US as a war zone is hilarious.

Edited by zaibatsu, 20 December 2012 - 01:34 PM.

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#487 Burnsey

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

"right, now should we the right to own a gun"
"nah, I've got a better idea. Lets allow concealed guns in certain places"


I mean seriously how stupid is this. America has got to realise that banning guns is the best thing to do to stop this violence. Now I know that it takes a person with a problem (mentally) to do such a thing, but the fact that it is so easy to obtain a gun makes that particular individual much more dangerous.


They should first take away the right to own a gun, and then secondly invest more into mental health clinics!!!
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#488 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:49 PM

But they're not behind the shootings of innocent people in schools, theaters and office buildings.

Gangs are for the most part, shooting at other gang members. The guys shooting up the schools and theaters are just guys who are not playing with a full deck, and have easy access to weapons that are far more than anyone needs for hunting or "protection"....

Yup. Gangsters are most likely to be killing and wounding other gangsters as the article points out.

And if you read the article it refers specifically to drug smuggling and distribution, as well as people smuggling, prostitution, etc. - the usual criminal enterprises. The vast majority drug crime can be traced to gang activity and of course the usual RICO prosecutions.

If you have firearms in the home they are many times more likely to result in the death or injury of a family member, friend or guest than this bogeyman criminal, of course that is when said firearm it is not used as means of suicide.

And as statistics show if you are victim of a crime involving a firearm, it is most likely from a family member or someone you know, not a gang member. Unless of course you are also involved in gang activities as we saw recently with the Eaton Centre shootings in Toronto and the various gangland hits over the past decade in Metro Vancouver.
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#489 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:53 PM

These shootings shouldn't make one afraid to go to school or work, the odds of being shot are worse than being struck by lightning.


Yet, in the US, the odds are far greater than any other first world country.

As you say, people shouldn't be afraid to go to school or work. Yet here we are in a thread discussing people being able to carry concealed weapons at churches, schools and day cares....
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#490 Tearloch7

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:06 PM

What's really funny is, gang violence is not what gets ire here.. it's assault weapons, the very type of firearms that were banned federally and was let expire because it was shown it had done nothing to prevent gun deaths.

Show me the statistics to back this up, or is this just something else you pulled out of your arse??

And as shown in this case gun restrictions were in place and did their job, they prevented this guy from buying a gun. Further restrictions would have done the same. On the other hand, this kid took the gun from someone who legally owned firearms, which is exactly the type of thing criminals motivated to do this kind of thing do. It wouldn't have mattered if the assault rifle wasn't present.. he still had two other guns. :lol: There's been nothing shown here that follows the US constitution that would have prevented this occurrence from happening, as the mother was obviously not a criminal.

Proper firearm storage would have prevented this kid from access to ANY of those guns!!!



AS USUAL, you fail to address the short comings you yourself create in your own posts .. bi-polar?
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#491 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

Our Strict Gun Laws Have Saved Thousands of Australian Lives


Posted on September 7, 2012


The two graphs below show how the rates of firearm homicide and firearm suicide have varied in Australia over the period 1915 to 2006. More recent figures (up to 2009) suggest that the rates remain near 0.1 per 100,000 of population for firearm homicide and 0.8 per 100,000 of population for firearm suicide. It is clear that the declines in death rates are associated with the list of stricter gun laws introduced, as shown on the right hand side of each graph.
Several Australian gun clubs are deceiving the public by claiming that the National Firearms Agreement of 1996 has not been successful. The Sporting Shooters Association (SSAA) and the International Coalition for Women in Shooting and Hunting are two examples. We believe that soon our politicians will realise that it is often unwise to trust gun club leaders on gun law matters.
The two graphs shown below use Australian Bureau of Statistics data, they show how the number of deaths by firearm homicide and firearm suicide have been greatly reduced since stricter gun laws were introduced after 32 people were murdered in six massacres by legal gun owners in 1987, and 41 people were murdered by non-criminal gun owners in two massacres in 1996.
The improved gun laws after 1996 are usually called the National Firearms Agreement (NFA) or sometimes referred to as the Howard gun laws.
From the graphs it can be seen that the reduction in yearly rates of firearm homicide and firearm suicide are approximately two thirds of what they used to be in the days before improvements were made to the laws (The long period of approx 30 years between 1956 and 1986). Thousands of lives have been saved: why do the gun clubs deny this? Are they ashamed of their stance that more Australians would die?
It took over a decade for the full worth of the post-1987 and post-1996 gun laws to be revealed, but the facts are known now and have been known for several years.
In our opinion, over a decade’s examination of gun incidents has also revealed that there were two weaknesses in the NFA, the superficiality of shooter training and insufficient rigour in several of the regulations relating to gun storage. These could be addressed now, and should be, without any major changes to the successful structure of the NFA.
Posted Image
Rate of Firearm Homicide (click for fullsize)
Posted Image
Rate Of Firearm Suicide

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 20 December 2012 - 02:07 PM.

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#492 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

AS USUAL, you fail to address the short comings you yourself create in your own posts .. bi-polar?

The problem with the safe storage argument of firearms in the home according to the SCOTUS in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), that is a non-starter.

Hence you need the firearm at hand, loaded and ready for bear because otherwise it would not pass constitutional muster. So no trigger locks, gun safes, separate ammunition storage, etc that we have in Canada.

The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment . The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

As long as firearms are sitting around loaded and unsecured, the problems continue.
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#493 Tearloch7

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

The problem with the safe storage argument of firearms in the home according to the SCOTUS in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), that is a non-starter.

Hence you need the firearm at hand, loaded and ready for bear because otherwise it would not pass constitutional muster. So no trigger locks, gun safes, separate ammunition storage, etc that we have in Canada.

The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment . The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.

http://www.law.corne.../07-290.ZS.html

As long as firearms are sitting around loaded and unsecured, the problems continue.



Change the Constitution!! .. or interpret it correctly for the 21st Century .. this is ONLY rocket science to the Yankees .. I guess it is replacing NASA? .. :lol:
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#494 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

Change the Constitution!! .. or interpret it correctly for the 21st Century .. this is ONLY rocket science to the Yankees .. I guess it is replacing NASA? .. :lol:

Heller is the modern interpretation - it separates out the militia requirement and makes it clear that strict constructionism (aka frozen concepts) does not apply and it covers firearms in current use not historical firearms.
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#495 Tearloch7

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

Heller is the modern interpretation - it separates out the militia requirement and makes it clear that strict constructionism (aka frozen concepts) does not apply and it covers firearms in current use not historical firearms.


Then to use a modern term .. they are fu**ed ..
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#496 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

Yet, in the US, the odds are far greater than any other first world country.

As you say, people shouldn't be afraid to go to school or work. Yet here we are in a thread discussing people being able to carry concealed weapons at churches, schools and day cares....

Yes, that's a problem.. with murder.

As for the rest, that's called hysteria. Something bad happens, an overreaction occurs.. evidently something must drastically change as far as guns are concerned, so I stick with what's consistent with the US constitution rather than pretend obliterating it is anything in the realm of realistic.

Heller is the modern interpretation - it separates out the militia requirement and makes it clear that strict constructionism (aka frozen concepts) does not apply and it covers firearms in current use not historical firearms.

One thing that case shows is that this can easily be overturned with at least 5 SCOTUS dissenting with Heller in a future case, and not applying stare decisis. By no means is a ruling set in stone indefinitely.

Edited by zaibatsu, 20 December 2012 - 04:19 PM.

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#497 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

One thing that case shows is that this can easily be overturned with at least 5 SCOTUS dissenting with Heller in a future case, and not applying stare decisis. By no means is a ruling set in stone indefinitely.

That would be a first - SCOTUS reversing a major constitutional decision in less than 50 years. You know that old saying... the chances f that happening are slim and none and slim has long since left the building.

Heller was the first major reconsideration of the Second Amendment since the 1939 Miller case - United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939). Per Miller :

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense... The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."'


Per Heller - the handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violated the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly chose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional:

"The Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit affirmed.


McDonald v. Chicago in 2010 extended the Heller reasoning to the state and municipal level and conformed the unconstituionality of a general handgun ban and the firearm safe storage regulations.

In Heller, we held that the Second Amendment protects the right to possess a handgun in the home for the purpose of self-defense. Unless considerations of stare decisis counsel otherwise, a provision of the Bill of Rights that protects a right that is fundamental from an American perspective applies equally to the Federal Government and the States. We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.


I do not see a lot of wiggle room in light of the Heller and McDonald cases.
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#498 Electro Rock

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

Yup. Gangsters are most likely to be killing and wounding other gangsters as the article points out.

And if you read the article it refers specifically to drug smuggling and distribution, as well as people smuggling, prostitution, etc. - the usual criminal enterprises. The vast majority drug crime can be traced to gang activity and of course the usual RICO prosecutions.

If you have firearms in the home they are many times more likely to result in the death or injury of a family member, friend or guest than this bogeyman criminal, of course that is when said firearm it is not used as means of suicide.

And as statistics show if you are victim of a crime involving a firearm, it is most likely from a family member or someone you know, not a gang member. Unless of course you are also involved in gang activities as we saw recently with the Eaton Centre shootings in Toronto and the various gangland hits over the past decade in Metro Vancouver.


Down there its different, while most of the violence is indeed gang on gang or thug on thug, that subculture is both exponentially larger and far more prone to prey apon the average person.

The gang culture down there basically *is* the criminal culture, and not just a small component of it.

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#499 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

Yes, that's a problem.. with murder.

As for the rest, that's called hysteria. Something bad happens, an overreaction occurs.. evidently something must drastically change as far as guns are concerned, so I stick with what's consistent with the US constitution rather than pretend obliterating it is anything in the realm of realistic.


I wasn't referring to "murder". I was referring to mass shootings in otherwise innocuous places such as schools and theaters.

Your chances of this happening to you are far greater in the US, than in any other first world country. How do you explain this if it isn't because of the availability of guns and more specifically, high-powered guns such as assault rifles.

It's an absolutely 'realistic" question. It's not an overreaction, nor is there anything "hysterical" about it.
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#500 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

Down there its different, while most of the violence is indeed gang on gang or thug on thug, that subculture is both exponentially larger and far more prone to prey apon the average person.

The gang culture down there basically *is* the criminal culture, and not just a small component of it.

It is not different according the the US statistics on firearm crimes.
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#501 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

That would be a first - SCOTUS reversing a major constitutional decision in less than 50 years. You know that old saying... the chances f that happening are slim and none and slim has long since left the building.

Heller was the first major reconsideration of the Second Amendment since the 1939 Miller case - United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939). Per Miller :

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense... The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."'


Per Heller - the handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violated the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly chose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional:

"The Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit affirmed.


McDonald v. Chicago in 2010 extended the Heller reasoning to the state and municipal level and conformed the unconstituionality of a general handgun ban and the firearm safe storage regulations.

In Heller, we held that the Second Amendment protects the right to possess a handgun in the home for the purpose of self-defense. Unless considerations of stare decisis counsel otherwise, a provision of the Bill of Rights that protects a right that is fundamental from an American perspective applies equally to the Federal Government and the States. We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.


I do not see a lot of wiggle room in light of the Heller and McDonald cases.

I don't share your sense regarding little "wiggle room" when it comes to how polarised SCOTUS is (how increasingly polarised the high courts have become in general), how consistently they vote with those alike in political ideology in major cases like this, and of course as shown during the Bush appointee hearings, how much less judges would rigidly employ stare decisis in their rulings, and of course that odds are in favour of one or two SCOTUS judges being replaced during Obama's second term.

Edited by zaibatsu, 20 December 2012 - 05:44 PM.

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#502 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

I don't share your sense regarding little "wiggle room" when it comes to how polarised SCOTUS is (how increasingly polarised the high courts have become in general), how consistently they vote with those alike in political ideology in major cases like this, and of course as shown during the Bush appointee hearings, how much less judges would rigidly employ stare decisis in their rulings, and of course that odds are in favour of one or two SCOTUS judges being replaced during Obama's second term.

Re-read the first paragraph.
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#503 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

Re-read the first paragraph.

I read it just fine, I don't agree.. while you have a point with historical occurrences of reversal, you have none when it comes to the ambiguity of decision making, especially if Obama winds up replacing, say, Thomas, Scalia, or Kennedy. No doubt the impact there along with the eroding respect for stare decisis, and polarisation of the court, will mean radical changes.
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#504 Tearloch7

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

I read it just fine, I don't agree.. while you have a point with historical occurrences of reversal, you have none when it comes to the ambiguity of decision making, especially if Obama winds up replacing, say, Thomas, Scalia, or Kennedy. No doubt the impact there along with the eroding respect for stare decisis, and polarisation of the court, will mean radical changes.


Good .. payback time ..
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#505 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

I read it just fine, I don't agree.. while you have a point with historical occurrences of reversal, you have none when it comes to the ambiguity of decision making, especially if Obama winds up replacing, say, Thomas, Scalia, or Kennedy. No doubt the impact there along with the eroding respect for stare decisis, and polarisation of the court, will mean radical changes.

If you do not agree please show me where SCOTUS has overruled itself on a major constitutional decision within decades of the impugned ruling.

In the case of the Second Amendment the time span was almost 70 years.
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#506 dudeone

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

Texas lawmaker: ‘Ping-pongs’ deadlier than guns

By Olivier Knox, Yahoo! News | The Ticket – 5 hrs ago

http://news.yahoo.co...--politics.html

Incoming Texas State Rep. Kyle Kacal says guns don’t kill people—ping-pong kills people.
"I've heard of people being killed playing ping-pong—ping-pongs are more dangerous than guns," he says. "Flat-screen TVs are injuring more kids today than anything."

The Consumer Product Safety Commission does warn that some sports equipment may have unexpected hazards—for instance, brands of tennis rackets have been recalled because ofpossible exposure to lead.

Also in the category of Things That Are Dangerous But Are Not Ping-pong: One model helicopter had to come off the shelves because of—yikes—“laceration hazards.”

But neither table tennis racquets nor table tennis itself appears to have hurt any children. For instance, it's nowhere to be found in a commission analysis noting the 13 toy-related deaths and 262,300 toy-related injuries to children under 15 in 2011. (If you have time to waste, the commission's lists of recalled sports equipment and toys make for engrossing—and sometimes distressing—reading.)

The lifetime rancher, who will take his seat in 2013 as a freshman, says that new gun restrictions are unnecessary. Kacal, who reportedly operates a hunting business, notably came out against a bill instructing Texans how to secure their assault weapons.

"People know what they need to do to be safe. We don't need to legislate that—it's common sense," he said. "Once everyone's gun is locked up, then the bad guys know everyone's gun is locked up."
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#507 Wetcoaster

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

And in more news from Texas...


HARROLD, Texas — In this tiny Texas town, children and their parents don't give much thought to safety at the community's lone school — mostly because some of the teachers are carrying concealed weapons.


In remote Harrold, the nearest sheriff's office is 30 minutes away, and people tend to know — and trust — one another. So the school board voted to let teachers bring guns to school.


"We don't have money for a security guard, but this is a better solution," Superintendent David Thweatt said. "A shooter could take out a guard or officer with a visible, holstered weapon, but our teachers have master's degrees, are older and have had extensive training. And their guns are hidden. We can protect our children."


In the awful aftermath of last week's Connecticut elementary school shooting, lawmakers in a growing number of states — including Oklahoma, Missouri, Minnesota, South Dakota and Oregon — have said they will consider laws allowing teachers and school administrators to carry firearms at school.


Texas law bans guns in schools unless the school has given written authorization. Arizona and six other states have similar laws with exceptions for people who have licenses to carry concealed weapons.


Harrold's school board voted unanimously in 2007 to allow employees to carry weapons. After obtaining a state concealed-weapons permit, each employee who wants to carry a weapon must be approved by the board based on his or her personality and reaction to a crisis, Thweatt said.


Employees also must undergo training in crisis intervention and hostage situations. And they must use bullets that minimize the risk of ricochet, similar to those carried by air marshals on planes.


CaRae Reinisch, who lives in the nearby community of Elliott, said she took her children out of a larger school and enrolled them in Harrold two years ago, partly because she felt they would be safer in a building with armed teachers.


"I think it's a great idea for trained teachers to carry weapons," Reinish said. "But I hate that it has come to this."


The superintendent won't disclose how many of the school's 50 employees carry weapons, saying that revealing that number might jeopardize school security.


The school, about 150 miles (240 kilometres) northwest of Fort Worth near the Oklahoma border, has 103 students from kindergarten through 12th grade. Most of them rarely think about who is carrying a gun.


"This is the first time in a long time that I've thought about it," said Matt Templeton, the principal's 17-year-old son. "And that's because of what happened" in Connecticut.


Thweatt said other Texas schools allow teachers to carry weapons, but he would not reveal their locations, saying they are afraid of negative publicity.


The Texas Education Agency said it had not heard of any other schools with such a policy. And the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence did not know of any other districts nationwide that allow school employees to carry concealed handguns.


But that may change soon.


Oklahoma state Rep. Mark McCullough said he is working on a bill that would allow teachers and administrators to receive firearms training through the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training, which would authorize them to carry weapons at school and at school events. Other states are proposing or considering similar measures.


However, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder this week vetoed legislation that would have allowed concealed weapons in schools, churches and day care centres, saying he seeks a more "thoughtful review" that includes school emergency policies and mental health-related issues.


In Texas, guns have an honoured place in the state's culture, and politicians often describe owning a gun as essential to being Texan. At the state capitol, concealed handgun license holders are allowed to skip the metal detectors that scan visitors.


Gov. Rick Perry has indicated he would prefer to give gun owners the widest possible latitude. Just days after the Connecticut attack, Perry said permit holders should be able to carry concealed weapons in any public place.


Last year, many Texas lawmakers supported a plan to give college students and professors with concealed handgun licenses the right to carry guns on campus, but the measure failed.


Opponents insist that having more people armed at a school, especially teachers or administrators who aren't trained to deal with crime on a daily basis, could lead to more injuries and deaths. They point to an August shooting outside the Empire State Building, where police killed a laid-off clothing designer after he fatally shot his former colleague. Nine bystanders were wounded by police gunfire, ricochets and fragments.


"You are going to put teachers, people teaching 6-year-olds in a school, and expect them to respond to an active-shooter situation?" said Ladd Everitt, a spokesman for the Washington, D.C.-based Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, who called the idea of arming teachers "madness."


Kristin Rowe-Finkbeiner said she would not have felt better if teachers at her children's Seattle school had been armed during a May shooting at a nearby cafe. A gunman killed four people at the cafe and another woman during a carjacking before killing himself. The school went on lockdown as a precaution.


"It would be highly concerning to me to know that guns were around my kids each and every day. ... Increasing our arms is not the answer," said Rowe-Finkbeiner, co-founder and CEO of MomsRising.org.


Dan Gross, president of the Brady Campaign, said focusing on arming teachers distracts from the "real things" that could help prevent a school shooting "and at worse it furthers a dangerous conversation that only talks about guns as protection without a discussion about the serious risks they present."


As the debate continues, Harrold's school plans to leave its policy unchanged.


"Nothing is 100 per cent at all. ... But hope makes for a terrible plan, hoping that (a tragedy) won't happen," Thweatt said. "My question is: What have you done about it? How have you planned?"

Read more: http://www.theprovin...l#ixzz2FewIQaFF
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#508 nuckin_futz

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:33 AM

Head of the NRA at his press conference.........

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

Also he called on congress to immediately fund armed police for every school in America.

Said all that with a straight face too. :picard:
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#509 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:52 AM

If you do not agree please show me where SCOTUS has overruled itself on a major constitutional decision within decades of the impugned ruling.

In the case of the Second Amendment the time span was almost 70 years.

I don't need to show you where it has been.

If Obama replaces the aforementioned conservative judges who were in the majority of those opinions with typical views of liberalism and textualism, stare decisis will not be emphasised, and gun control laws will not be reversed.

If practicality and how these judges issue rulings is something that you will continue to ignore, then be my guest, historical significance of overturning is moot to those sitting judges without respect for precedence, as has been seen in the more recent Texas sodomy law case. There is no reason to believe that replacing Kennedy, Thomas, or Scalia, with a similar type of Ginsburg, Breyer, Kagan, or Sotomayor, will result in the same ruling as Heller. If you believe this to be the case, and they would rule the same as Heller, you need more studying the way judges interpret law. I'm not even a lawyer and I see this quite clearly.

Edited by zaibatsu, 21 December 2012 - 10:59 AM.

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#510 Electro Rock

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:21 AM

It is not different according the the US statistics on firearm crimes.


Those statistics don't show what happens the majority of the time when gangs use guns against civilians for intimidation and don't actually shoot anyone.

Or all the instances where guns weren't a factor at all.

Remember, down there there's a better than even chance that muggings, holdups, carjackings, swarmings etc are carried out by gang members.
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