Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo

Van - Nash, Van -Tor


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,958 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

Alright first trade proposal, this one will deal with Edler and Luongo theoretically being dealt.

Nash:

D - Alex Edler (Nashville needs big left side defenseman to replace Suter)

Van:

C - Colin Wilson (7th overall in 2008, zomg he went before CODIEZ! Hasn't really had the chance to put up offensive numbers in Nashville, great 3rd line centre)

D - Mattias Ekholm (Young, big Swedish defenseman. He's also a point producer. Needs to put on some weight, only 6'4'' 180 lbs)

2nd deal:

Tor:

G - Roberto Luongo

LW - Mason Raymond (Bure/Nonis drafted him, maybe they like him cause I sure as hell don't)

Van:

C - Tyler Bozak (47 points last year, versatile centre. Could take 3rd line centre, 2nd while Kes is out)

F - Nazem Kadri (Toronto's top forward prospect. PPG in the AHL)

D - Stuart Percy (Leafs' first rounder in 2011, promising offensive defenseman)


Vancouver gains 2 young defensive prospects, while giving up a roster player in Edler. Vancouver does this as Garrison can be moved to the left side to take over for Edler, and Ballard can hopefully take on more minutes. At worse we sign a defenseman to round out our 6. Ekholm will inevitably be one of those Nashville produced defenseman that turns out to be a stud, just needs to add 20 lbs.

Vancouver also gets 2 possible 3rd line centre options in Wilson, Bozak. If it's true Kesler is going to be out for months, then we have options for the 2nd line centre as well. Vancouver also gets Kadri, a dynamic forward who has only ever struggled with Toronto media.

Nashville gets their much needed Suter replacement in Edler, and Toronto gets the goalie they have lacked for a decade.
  • 0

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#2 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,483 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:41 PM

I like the Toronto deal but any chance we could get Biggs instead of Percy?

The Nashville trade is not bad either, if there was no chance we could sign Edler than I wouldn't mind it. Wilson still hasn't hit his full potential and Ekholm as you say is big and has some good upside. I do think we might be able to get something a little better than that though honestly, maybe not since he is unsigned but it depends where and when we trade him.

Overall a good proposal.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 15 December 2012 - 01:45 PM.

  • 2

zackass.png


#3 Zoolander

Zoolander

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,190 posts
  • Joined: 29-February 12

Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:42 PM

You Sir,
know how to make a good proposal!

Edler as a signed 50pt defenceman is worth way more than Wilson, and Ekholm, but unsigned, this seems fair. The Toronto trade also gives us a lot of youth and Bozak and Wilson play 2 very different games, giving us a lot of versatility.

I know a lot of CDC'ers aren't sold on Kadri, but he is able to play both Wing, and Centre, and is the playmaker that guys like Kassian need. These trades greatly increase our prospect pool, while also giving us players that can produce/fill roles now. Percy is an added bonus and could fill in as a bottom pair d-man with Tanev, or replace Ballard if we manage to move him somewhere.

Great job!
  • 1
My 2014 Draft wishlist: 1st rd: Draisaitl, Virtanen, Scherbak. 2nd rd: Brendan Lemieux, Thatcher Demko (Goalie)
Posted Image
Future Canucks top 6:
Shinkaruk-Draisaitl-Scherbak
Virtanen-Horvat-Jensen

#4 Pears

Pears

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,962 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 11

Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:52 PM

I would gladly do these any day. However in my 100% honest opinion, I think the only way Edler is going to Nashville is if Weber is coming back to Vancouver. Nonetheless solid proposals.
  • 1

In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#5 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,958 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

Thanks gents, plusses all around.
  • 0

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#6 Zoolander

Zoolander

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,190 posts
  • Joined: 29-February 12

Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:12 PM

I like the Toronto deal but any chance we could get Biggs instead of Percy?

The Nashville trade is not bad either, if there was no chance we could sign Edler than I wouldn't mind it. Wilson still hasn't hit his full potential and Ekholm as you say is big and has some good upside. I do think we might be able to get something a little better than that though honestly, maybe not since he is unsigned but it depends where and when we trade him.

Overall a good proposal.


Personally,
I'd rather take Percy over Biggs, just because Biggs is another RW, and we already have Kassian and Jensen.

You're right though, a better package coud be available for Edler, but this one seems to give us 2 things we need more of. Depth at centre, and young prospects to challenge K-Conn,Tanev and Corrado.

In all honesty, I'd really like to do a trade with Nashville for Wilson. and maybe acquire Blum too, if we threw something else into the mix, with Edler. Blum,Wilson, and Schroeder all played together on the U.S WJC Team and could have good chemistry in the locker room. Good chemistry between Wilson, and Schroeder could allow Schroeder to move to wing, where I think he is more fitted.

Schroeder-Wilson-Kassian
Kadri-Gaunce-Jensen looks really good to me.

Edited by Zoolander, 15 December 2012 - 02:12 PM.

  • 0
My 2014 Draft wishlist: 1st rd: Draisaitl, Virtanen, Scherbak. 2nd rd: Brendan Lemieux, Thatcher Demko (Goalie)
Posted Image
Future Canucks top 6:
Shinkaruk-Draisaitl-Scherbak
Virtanen-Horvat-Jensen

#7 Flying Man

Flying Man

    Comets Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 188 posts
  • Joined: 25-March 12

Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:13 PM

If something like this happened I would cry tears of joy, best proposal I've read in a while!
  • 1
Posted Image

#8 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,483 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:25 PM

Personally,
I'd rather take Percy over Biggs, just because Biggs is another RW, and we already have Kassian and Jensen.


I have no issue with taking the defensemen over the forward but Biggs is the better prospect IMO. Then even if we were going to take a defensmen over him I would rather have Finn to be honest.

Then just looking at Biggs for a second, I think the perfect playing style comparison is Dustin Brown (Not saying he will be as good but that's who he plays like IMO) That would be a nice thing to have.


You're right though, a better package coud be available for Edler, but this one seems to give us 2 things we need more of. Depth at centre, and young prospects to challenge K-Conn,Tanev and Corrado.

In all honesty, I'd really like to do a trade with Nashville for Wilson. and maybe acquire Blum too, if we threw something else into the mix, with Edler. Blum,Wilson, and Schroeder all played together on the U.S WJC Team and could have good chemistry in the locker room. Good chemistry between Wilson, and Schroeder could allow Schroeder to move to wing, where I think he is more fitted.

Schroeder-Wilson-Kassian
Kadri-Gaunce-Jensen looks really good to me.


Yeah as I said it depends when we trade him and how badly certain teams want him.

If we trade him earlier in the year then the package will be better, if we trade him midway through the season then the package really won't be as good.

As for those 2, Ekholm would be a nice addition to the prospect pool and Wilson would also be great to get.


And just for a second, imagine making those deals, then getting Biggs, and drafting Carrier.

Jensen - Kadri - Kassian
Carrier - Wilson - Schroeder
? - Gaunce - Biggs

Changes can be made but I wanted to put the more offensive players in the top 6.
  • 0

zackass.png


#9 Phil_314

Phil_314

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,394 posts
  • Joined: 07-November 09

Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:10 PM

I definitely like the thought process of adding young, almost NHL-ready prospects (Ekholm, Kadri, Percy) and decent, young forwards who have already made the team (Bozak, Wilson) for roster pieces like Lu and Edler, but the question on my mind is, would this Paul Holmgren-esque move bring guys who can play right away?

Now I don't know too much about the prospects but from what I've read I think Ekholm would be a really nice addition who could soon sub for Edler's spot; however, I'd hesitate to move for Kadri unless he shows that he's ready to play an offensive role as a play maker in the NHL (I'd still want him to play in the NHL for awhile, AHL point-per-game players aren't guaranteed to make it); I'd also want someone slightly more proven to be honest, since this team should aspire to win now. Wilson, Bozak and Percy are solid roster players, though probably more complementary additions.

Overall I like where this move could bring the team
  • 0

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


Jesus LOVES YOU!
2012, meet Matthew 24:36-47!

14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


#10 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,958 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

The Edler gap is short term if Ekholm can develop into what I think he can be in the next year or so. It's difficult if not impossible to replace the 50 points Edler brings to our D. I am being optimistic in hoping Garrison can bring 40 points playing Edler's left side, while Ballard can have an increased role and take on more minutes. Tanev might even be ready to slot in that top 4 right side. We get youth all around, on top of greatly adding to our offensive depth.

These moves probably don't get us a cup this year. Luongo has to be moved though, 5.3 for a back up is steep. Edler is best moved before we lose him for nothing or next to nothing. A year from now if these deals go through, I fully expect Ekholm to be in our 6, Wilson to be our 3rd centre while Bozak and Kadri both a part of our offense.

Long term this keeps us competitive, rather than throwing 6mil + at Edler and retaining Luongo's 5.3m cap hit. Also in terms of cap we lose Luongo's 5.3, Raymond's 2.3, and Edler's 3.5. That's 11mil in cap space to sign another D if needed.
  • 0

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#11 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,483 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:20 PM

^ Good point.

Once the lockout ends we probably will have little time to sign him, and since we seem to be far apart on $$ for a long term deal, maybe we could sign him to a 1 year deal and go halfway on the cost. We want about 4.9 I think? And he probably wants upwards of 6 Million, so we could go 5.4 or 5.5 for 1 season then work out an extension over the season.

I think that idea might satisfy there camp too, cause if Edler can play really take hold of that #1 spot on our team he will be worth more, and from what I know he really likes it here and would like to stay aslong as he is compensated fairly.

Thoughts?
  • 0

zackass.png


#12 Nathan MacKinnon

Nathan MacKinnon

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,242 posts
  • Joined: 07-November 10

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

I love you Ossi, I haven't read a good trade proposal in awhile. Props to you sir.

As to the trades themselves, I like the Luongo deal and I think it's fair for both sides. We get a top forward prospect, a third line center, and a defensive prospect while trading away an elite goalie that nobody likes anymore (:( love you lou)

However I'm not sure that I would want to do the Edler deal if he re-signs, but if he is unsigned then I see that as a good trade for a rental defenseman.
  • 0

+1 this post!

Posted Image

Credit to Intoewsables :wub: :wub: :wub:

Formerly known as UMADBRO?

Luongo Supporter. Does not deserve any of this BS


#13 uber_pwnzor

uber_pwnzor

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,451 posts
  • Joined: 07-December 11

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

LW - Mason Raymond (Bure/Nonis drafted him, maybe they like him cause I sure as hell don't)


Yeah...
  • 0

#14 eretz canucks

eretz canucks

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 10

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

Ekholm and Wilson for Edler seems like a large underpayment unless Ekholm is a stud D man that can crack the Canucks top 6 now

Wilson is good but may top out at a great third line center, he could also be a kesler type who knows?

What I don't like about a lot of these deals is that we are giving up the best player and projecting how our return players my play years into the future. These trades are risky.


  • 0

#15 Zoolander

Zoolander

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,190 posts
  • Joined: 29-February 12

Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:30 AM

Ekholm and Wilson for Edler seems like a large underpayment unless Ekholm is a stud D man that can crack the Canucks top 6 now

Wilson is good but may top out at a great third line center, he could also be a kesler type who knows?

What I don't like about a lot of these deals is that we are giving up the best player and projecting how our return players my play years into the future. These trades are risky.


These trades aren't really risky, considering Wilson is coming into his prime, and Ekholm, is another good two-way player to challenge K-Conn, Tanev and Ballard for the roster spot.

With the Luongo trade, we bring in Bozak, who can play LW/RW/ and C so he can fit anywhere in our top 9. Kadri is an explosive player, with excellent play-making ability and could complement Kassian, and Wilson nicely. Percy is smart with the puck, and like Ekholm, provides more internal competition for training camp, and more depth in the minors.

Our line-up then becomes a lot younger, and much more versatile with players who can fit into almost any situation.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Bozak
Higgins-Wilson--Kassian
Malholtra-Lapierre-Hansen

Bieksa-Hamhuis
Garrison-Tanev/UFA
Percy-Ekholm/K-Conn/Corrado/Ballard
  • 0
My 2014 Draft wishlist: 1st rd: Draisaitl, Virtanen, Scherbak. 2nd rd: Brendan Lemieux, Thatcher Demko (Goalie)
Posted Image
Future Canucks top 6:
Shinkaruk-Draisaitl-Scherbak
Virtanen-Horvat-Jensen

#16 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,218 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:37 AM

I like the NSH trade if it came down to us having to trade Edler.
Nothing wrong with the TO trade, not really a fan of any of those particular players we get in return, but it's good value wise.
  • 0

Jagermeister.jpg


#17 Zoolander

Zoolander

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,190 posts
  • Joined: 29-February 12

Posted 16 December 2012 - 12:23 PM

One thing I might change, is switching Ekholm for Blum, and Watson, and adding a few pieces. The Toronto trade is pretty spot-on though, so I won't change that.

Nash:

D - Alex Edler (Nashville needs big left side defenseman to replace Suter)

LW/RW- Chris Higgins (Gives Nashville more tenacity/goal-scoring ability, replaces some of the offensive punch, left by Wilson)

C- Jordan Schroeder (Refills Nashville's prospect pool a bit, and could step into their line-up this season. Schroeder, in Vancouver would get lost in the depth chart, behind Bozak,Wilson, Kesler, and Lapierre)

Van:

C - Colin Wilson (7th overall in 2008, Hasn't really had the chance to put up offensive numbers in Nashville, great 3rd line centre)

C/W - Austin Watson (18th overall in 2010, A two-way player who put up PPG stats last year in the OHL. Is a big-body presence, who's grit along the boards is replaced by Schroeder's speed and playmaking ability in Nashville)

D - Jonathon Blum (Former captain of the Vancouver Giants, Blum is a very good young D-Man who could fill a top-4/6 role. He was a minus-14 last year and is set to become a RFA this Summer. His contract is expiring, and his point totals are down. Now would be the best time to have him return to Vancouver where he lit up the WHL.

Analysis:
Alex Edler ----> Colin Wilson, Jonathon Blum (RFA rights)
Chris Higgins ----> Austin Watson

Edited by Zoolander, 16 December 2012 - 12:25 PM.

  • 0
My 2014 Draft wishlist: 1st rd: Draisaitl, Virtanen, Scherbak. 2nd rd: Brendan Lemieux, Thatcher Demko (Goalie)
Posted Image
Future Canucks top 6:
Shinkaruk-Draisaitl-Scherbak
Virtanen-Horvat-Jensen

#18 eretz canucks

eretz canucks

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

Higgins is way more valuable than Watson, higggins a perfect depth playoff guy, can fill in second line, pk, shutdown line.

Take out Higgins put in Raymond and that's fair
  • 0

#19 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,483 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:59 PM

I kinda of agree with eretz canucks I think it is risky, if Edler continue along this pace and Wilson doesn't take control of a top 6 spot this could blow up in our face big time.

As for Zoolander's deal I think we overpay a bit.
  • 0

zackass.png


#20 eretz canucks

eretz canucks

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

To NSH
Edler
Raymond
2013 2nd

To VAN
Josi
Wilson

That's fair

Edited by eretz canucks, 16 December 2012 - 03:19 PM.

  • 0

#21 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,483 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:16 PM

Take out the 2nd or JS and I'm down if there's no way we can sign Edler.
  • 0

zackass.png


#22 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,958 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:16 PM

To NSH
Edler
Raymond
Schroeder
2013 2nd

To VAN
Josi
Wilson

That's fair


Actually that's pretty far from fair. We get tea bagged repeatedly.
  • 1

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#23 Tom Sestito

Tom Sestito

    Probably Not A Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,729 posts
  • Joined: 10-February 12

Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:18 PM

You Sir,
know how to make a good proposal!

Edler as a signed 50pt defenceman is worth way more than Wilson, and Ekholm, but unsigned, this seems fair. The Toronto trade also gives us a lot of youth and Bozak and Wilson play 2 very different games, giving us a lot of versatility.

I know a lot of CDC'ers aren't sold on Kadri, but he is able to play both Wing, and Centre, and is the playmaker that guys like Kassian need. These trades greatly increase our prospect pool, while also giving us players that can produce/fill roles now. Percy is an added bonus and could fill in as a bottom pair d-man with Tanev, or replace Ballard if we manage to move him somewhere.

Great job!


  • 0
Posted Image
Thank you VC!

#24 eretz canucks

eretz canucks

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

I took out JS,
It's fair to have Josi cone back because Edler would play top pairing in NSH with weber and so he would be the best player in the deal.
I added our 2nd bc of the youth coming back our way and the fact that Gillis usually pisses these away anyhow- Sauve, Rodin, Mallet ...grrrrrrreat

I don't want to Lise Edler but I'd fo this if we have to move him
  • 0

#25 eretz canucks

eretz canucks

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:52 PM

Let me take a second crack at this

To NSH
Edler
Raymond
Schroeder
Rodin
2013 3rd

To VAN
Josi
Wilson
Spaling
2013 2nd
  • 0

#26 eretz canucks

eretz canucks

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

Unfortunately this gives Nashville a really strong D core

Weber Edler
Gill Klein
Blum Hannan

Ellis
  • 1

#27 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,483 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

Let me take a second crack at this

To NSH
Edler
Raymond
Schroeder
Rodin
2013 3rd

To VAN
Josi
Wilson
Spaling
2013 2nd


Not much on an improvement. Take out JS, change our 3rd to a 4th and Change Spaling to Watson.
  • 0

zackass.png


#28 ice orca

ice orca

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,782 posts
  • Joined: 07-October 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:03 PM

Unfortunately this gives Nashville a really strong D core

Weber Edler
Gill Klein
Blum Hannan

Ellis

This..the last thing you want is Edler and Weber squashing the Sedins 4 times a year. Sign him or trade him to Philly for some real tallent, Couterier comes to mind.
  • 0

#29 eretz canucks

eretz canucks

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 10

Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:30 PM

To Philly
Edler
Raymond
Schroeder

To Van
Max Talbot
Luke Schenn
Brayden Schenn

Edited by eretz canucks, 16 December 2012 - 10:34 PM.

  • 0

#30 King of the ES

King of the ES

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,272 posts
  • Joined: 27-May 12

Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:54 AM

Underpayment for Edler, overpayment for Luongo.
  • 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.