Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo
* - - - - 2 votes

Canucks making critical mistakes in hindsight?


  • Please log in to reply
552 replies to this topic

#331 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,860 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:17 AM

Bieksa does not have half the skill that Ehrhoff has.

As you are not sure of a lot of things how about stop writing for a while and actually read what others say,De Niro?

Start with the comments and opinions from Samuelsson and Torres and how they think they were treated by Gillis.


I wasn't even having a conversation about Ehrhoff, but you seem to like to include me in a lot of your comments, so I guess I'll play.

Since you seem to like to base alot of your analysis on stats, I'll try and speak your language. Ehrhoff had 50 points on this team when it had the league's number 1 powerplay, so that would mean if Bieksa had half the skill that Ehrhoff had he should only have 25 points, right? Since stats are the basis for everything.

Oh but wait, Bieksa only had 6 less points than Ehrhoff despite not being on the league's best powerplay. But how can that be? And how could the team finish first for the second year in a row? Clearly if you took out such an elite defenseman like Ehrhoff and replaced him with a bum like Bieksa, this team would have a huge drop-off, would it not?

The reality is, the Sedins can make pretty much any defenseman a 40+ point player. Ehrhoff was good, but he was not a core player on this team. Bieksa replaced his production quite easily. And on top of that he kills penalties, provides some intimidation, and he's a leader on this team. Bieksa is a Nuck for life.
  • 3

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#332 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,831 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:17 AM

This thread is very selective of MG's mistakes. Need I remind you of our other option in Dave Nonis, which in 2007-2008 landed our biggest summer signing in Brad Isbister, and that massive deadline deal for Matt Pettinger.

Gillis has made mistakes sure, but he's done a lot right. This 'culture of winning' as he calls it, bringing in sleep doctors, having an internal cap structure, on top of all that he never fails to disappoint come July 1st - always signing someone, and even the trade deadline you can get excited about as well. I'm a more avid fan because of Gillis.
  • 1

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#333 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,667 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:25 AM

I hate the Flames, and it pains me to say it, but they have a better prospect pool than us.

Just going off guys who I feel have some NHL potential if they reach their ceiling.

Baertschi > Jensen (Baertschi is a potential superstar, Jensen should be good 1st/2nd liner)
Gaudreau > or = Schroeder (Gaudreau has better skill, but will be in tough due to size)
Wotherspoon = Corrado (Both very solid all around, both will be good NHLers)
Jankowski < or = Gaunce (Both could be good 2nd/3rd liners with all around skill, Gaunce is a safer bet)
Nemisz < Kassian (Both are potential power forwards, Kassian has edge in most aspects)
Granlund > Rodin (Both offensively gifted, Granlund plays a more well rounded game)
Seiloff = Sauve (Both solid stay at home D, could be bottom pair D)
Brodie > or = Connauton (Both good offensive D, Brodies D game is slighly better at the time being)
Kulak > or = McNally (Both could be depth D, McNallys recent issues could hurt his development though)
Arnold > Labate (Both could be bottom 6 guys, Arnold has higher offensive potential)
Aliu > Grenier (Aliu should be good 4th line PWF, Grenier might be fringe NHL PWF)
Ramage = Price (Both could be depth D, both play solid all around game)
Wahl < Mallet (Both could be 4th liners, Mallet has physical edge)
Byron > Sweatt (Both could be call-up forwards, Byron already proved he can handle and produce in NHL)
All 3 of Horak, Ferland, and Reinhart > Any other forward prospects we have (All 3 should have NHL success)
However Tanev > Any other D prospects Calgary has (Already a decent bottom pair guy)
Brossoit and Gilles both > or = Cannata (All 3 could be decent back-ups, Gilles could be a starter)
Irving = Lack (Both should be good backups or 1A/1B starters)

Granted they have had better drafting positions and were able to nab Baertschi and Jankowski, but Jankowski probably wasn't the best pick at that spot and could prove to be a project.
We have a few really promising prospects, but the Flames have both a higher quality and higher quantity.

Edited by Jägermeister, 22 December 2012 - 05:02 AM.

  • 0
Posted Image

#334 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,860 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:28 AM

This thread is very selective of MG's mistakes. Need I remind you of our other option in Dave Nonis, which in 2007-2008 landed our biggest summer signing in Brad Isbister, and that massive deadline deal for Matt Pettinger.

Gillis has made mistakes sure, but he's done a lot right. This 'culture of winning' as he calls it, bringing in sleep doctors, having an internal cap structure, on top of all that he never fails to disappoint come July 1st - always signing someone, and even the trade deadline you can get excited about as well. I'm a more avid fan because of Gillis.


Exactly, what Gillis lacks in drafting (which I don't think is even that bad), he makes up for in his ability to sign free agents. And he usually signs them below market value.

Like you said, look at the gem players that Nonis was able to sign. Isbister? Ritchie? Green? Park? These players were horrible.

And now look at the players Gillis has been able to sign: Demitra, Sundin, Samuelssson, Hamhuis, Garrison, Torres, Malhotra. He's made this a place and a team that players wanna come to. That's something Nonis never could do.
  • 0

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#335 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,860 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:44 AM

I hate the Flames, but they have a better prospect pool than us.
Baertschi > Jensen
Gaudreau > or = Schroeder
Wotherspoon = Corrado
Jankowski = Gaunce
Nemisz < Kassian
Granlund > Rodin
Seiloff = Sauve
Brodie > Connauton
Aliu > Grenier
All 3 of Horak, Ferland, and Reinhart > Any other forward prospects we have
Brossoit and Gilles both > or = Cannata

Granted they have had better drafting positions and were able to nab Baertschi, and Jankowski probable wasn't the best pick at that spot, but I can't say they still don't have a better prospect pool than us.
We have a few really promising prospects, but the Flames have both a higher quality and higher quantity.


I don't agree with Baertschi being better than Jensen. He may be, but I don't think it's an easy comparison to make right now since they're both playing in different leagues. They both have a dynamic skill set but we'll see who adapts better in the NHL. Jensen has the size going for him. I'd say it's too close to call, though I'm sure flames fans will disagree.

And you completly left out Lack, McNally, and Price who are 3 of our top prospects. They are better than some of the players on that list. Unfortunately some people don't realize how good Price and McNally are. Lack was also a top goalie in the AHL in his previous two seasons. He's well above the junior level.
  • 0

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#336 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:48 AM

I hate the Flames, but they have a better prospect pool than us.
Gaudreau > or = Schroeder
Wotherspoon = Corrado

Granted they have had better drafting positions and were able to nab Baertschi, and Jankowski probable wasn't the best pick at that spot, but I can't say they still don't have a better prospect pool than us.
We have a few really promising prospects, but the Flames have both a higher quality and higher quantity.


I disagree with those 2.

Corrado has more dimensions to his game IMO, Wotherspoon is having a good year points wise but he is also playing on a much better team loaded with top talent and when you compare there games Corrado is more rounded IMO and brings more, Wotherspoon is still good but I think Corrado has greater upside, then head to head at the selection camp Corrado was more impressive.

Gaudreau vs Schroeder is a tough one, I think = is fair. I disagree because Gaudreau is on the same path as Schroeder IMO, he is an undersized American that has a high skill level, but what happens when Gaudreau reaches the pro level? The same concerns will come up with him that Schroeder is facing, then you look at the fact they are at different stages, I say =.


You also Left off Tanev who is a much better comparison vs Brodie than Connaution, I would say Tanev = or > Brodie, and you also forgot about Lack, who is better than the goalies you mentioned and IMO better than Irving aswell. Even Sweatt is a much more fair comparison to a guy like Aliu or Ferland.


And there advantage in prospects IMO is due to there draft positions, they have had alot higher picks than us since Feaster has been calling the shots and we still match up alright against them.


Edit: I also agree with DeNiro's point on Jensen/Baertschi, right now Baertschi looks better I agree with that but Jensen is playing against good competition aswell I think better competition than Beartschi (SEL>AHL slightly IMO) and he has the advantage in size which will help him at the pro level.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 22 December 2012 - 03:50 AM.

  • 0

zackass.png


#337 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,687 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:56 AM

Yeah,not one draft pick playing for the Canucks in five Gillis drafts.Batting 1000% there,huh?

Nonis signed a healthy Luongo and kept Ryan by matching the Clarke offer for Kesler.

He also signed the Sedins,whom he was partially credited with for drafting.

Edler,Raymond ,Hansen,Schneider-all Nonis picks.That is eight of the present roster's core players.

Add in the coach-that was a Nonis pick and hire.

How many draft picks does Gillis have in his core?
  • 0

#338 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,667 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:04 AM

I disagree with those 2.

Corrado has more dimensions to his game IMO, Wotherspoon is having a good year points wise but he is also playing on a much better team loaded with top talent and when you compare there games Corrado is more rounded IMO and brings more, Wotherspoon is still good but I think Corrado has greater upside, then head to head at the selection camp Corrado was more impressive.

Gaudreau vs Schroeder is a tough one, I think = is fair. I disagree because Gaudreau is on the same path as Schroeder IMO, he is an undersized American that has a high skill level, but what happens when Gaudreau reaches the pro level? The same concerns will come up with him that Schroeder is facing, then you look at the fact they are at different stages, I say =.


You also Left off Tanev who is a much better comparison vs Brodie than Connaution, I would say Tanev = or > Brodie, and you also forgot about Lack, who is better than the goalies you mentioned and IMO better than Irving aswell. Even Sweatt is a much more fair comparison to a guy like Aliu or Ferland.


And there advantage in prospects IMO is due to there draft positions, they have had alot higher picks than us since Feaster has been calling the shots and we still match up alright against them.


Edit: I also agree with DeNiro's point on Jensen/Baertschi, right now Baertschi looks better I agree with that but Jensen is playing against good competition aswell I think better competition than Beartschi (SEL>AHL slightly IMO) and he has the advantage in size which will help him at the pro level.


Yeah I pretty much went and added more as soon as I posted it initially, I made the additional comparisons such as Irving to Lack and Sweatt to Byron. To me, Tanev isn't really a prospect at this point, but I guess that's fair as Brodie isn't much of one either.

I think both Corrado and Wotherspoon can be top 4 D in the league, at this point I wouldn't really pick one over the other.

Gaudreau is just dominating the NCAA in his second year, whereas Schroeder slid off somewhat in his second year. Like I added in my original comparison, I think Gaudreau has a higher ceiling, but will be in for a harder challenge to overcome his size.

To me, the way Baertschi handled himself in his call-up last year really showed a sign of good things to come (for him and Calgary, not for us), he looked like he was ready to hop into the NHL without slowing down at all.

Edited by Jägermeister, 22 December 2012 - 04:13 AM.

  • 0
Posted Image

#339 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:19 AM

Yeah I pretty much went and added more as soon as I posted it initially, I made the additional comparisons such as Irving to Lack and Sweatt to Byron. To me, Tanev isn't really a prospect at this point, but I guess that's fair as Brodie isn't much of one either.

I think both Corrado and Wotherspoon can be top 4 D in the league, at this point I wouldn't really pick one over the other.

Gaudreau is just dominating the NCAA in his second year, whereas Schroeder slid off somewhat in his second year. Like I added in my original comparison, I think Gaudreau has a higher ceiling, but will be in for a harder challenge to overcome his size.

To me, the way Baertschi handled himself in his call-up last year really showed a sign of good things to come (for him and Calgary, not for us), he looked like he was ready to hop into the NHL without slowing down at all.


I still disagree on Corrado/Wotherspoon, just based on the style of play, it's not like I think Corrado will be a ton better but I think he will be a more useful player in the sense that he brings more offensive ability, is more gritty IMO (Wotherspoon doesn't always use his size to his advantage) and is a better skater, although you could say Wotherspoon's defensive game and size make him more reliable but I think Corrado is a pretty reliable safe players aswell. So whatever it's not a big deal.

If you don't consider Tanev a prospect then Brodie shouldn't be either IMO, Connaution/Brodie is an unfair matchup and I think Brodie/Tanev is the better and more fair matchup, and it's pretty even.

I think Beartshci is better atm aswell but Jensen I think we be better in the NHL than he has at any other level so we will see what happens there.

I still say Lack > Irving, Lack has put up better AHL numbers than Irving, both are the same age and Irving has just gotten NHL time cause there goaltending (Obviously) doesn't have the depth we do, and in the NHL Irving hasn't exactly shined with a GAA over 3.00 I'm pretty sure. So I say Lack > Irving.

see you editted it and it has gotten better, but I still disagree on a few comparison's, but us having different opinions is fine.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 22 December 2012 - 04:21 AM.

  • 0

zackass.png


#340 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:27 AM

Yeah,not one draft pick playing for the Canucks in five Gillis drafts.Batting 1000% there,huh?

Nonis signed a healthy Luongo and kept Ryan by matching the Clarke offer for Kesler.

He also signed the Sedins,whom he was partially credited with for drafting.

Edler,Raymond ,Hansen,Schneider-all Nonis picks.That is eight of the present roster's core players.

Add in the coach-that was a Nonis pick and hire.

How many draft picks does Gillis have in his core?


How many picks does Feaster have in his core?

If you count Kassian (Who we got for Hodgson who MG drafted) and then including the free agent's he has signed.

It is safe to say 2-3 (Kassian, Tanev and then Lack being the likely 3rd)


Not sure how Nonis is partically creditied with Drafting the Sedins? But anyways.. alright.

So how many does Feaster have in his line-up?
  • 0

zackass.png


#341 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,687 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:31 AM

Exactly, what Gillis lacks in drafting (which I don't think is even that bad)....


Surely,you can digest some of the nonsense you are writing.
After five NHL drafts Gillis has zero ( as in 0) draft picks playing for the club.
That is 000000000000%.
That Canucks GM you were sideswiping with your devotion for Gillis did more in three years on his own than Gillis has managed in five years.
If I count the players he was also responsible for drafting as Asst. GM of this club it could not make Gillis look worse than the blazing 0% average he now holds as his record.
  • 0

#342 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,687 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:36 AM

How many picks does Feaster have in his core?
If you count Kassian (Who we got for Hodgson who MG drafted) and then including the free agent's he has signed.
It is safe to say 2-3 (Kassian, Tanev and then Lack being the likely 3rd)
Not sure how Nonis is partically creditied with Drafting the Sedins? But anyways.. alright.
So how many does Feaster have in his line-up?


I have no idea what you are talking about.I have not participated in one of your Flames posts.
The argument is players drafted by Nonis or Gillis that play for this club.
Tanev was a Gagner family friend he brought to the Canucks.
Lack has never played for the Canucks.
Kassian is not a Gillis draft pick.
Do you want me to add all the present Canucks that Nonis is an Asst. GM and credited with bringing to this club?
How about all the draft picks they traded for players?
Gillis has zero.Not one.Nada.He has a record that any one of us can do-nothing.
  • 0

#343 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,667 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

If you don't consider Tanev a prospect then Brodie shouldn't be either IMO, Connaution/Brodie is an unfair matchup and I think Brodie/Tanev is the better and more fair matchup, and it's pretty even.


That's fair, I stuck Brodie and Connauton together as they are both more offensive defenceman and the same age, whereas Tanev is more defensive. I also figured both Brodie and Connauton would be in the AHL regardless this year, whereas Tanev would have likely been in the NHL.
Plus TBH, I've gotten so used to Tanev being around the last 2 years, I'd thought he played a lot more games than he has.

Edited by Jägermeister, 22 December 2012 - 04:56 AM.

  • 0
Posted Image

#344 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:49 AM

Surely,you can digest some of the nonsense you are writing.
After five NHL drafts Gillis has zero ( as in 0) draft picks playing for the club.
That is 000000000000%.
That Canucks GM you were sideswiping with your devotion for Gillis did more in three years on his own than Gillis has managed in five years.
If I count the players he was also responsible for drafting as Asst. GM of this club it could not make Gillis look worse than the blazing 0% average he now holds as his record.


I love how you balatently ignored his free agent point, which Gillis has proved he is very proficent in that area.

And you act like Nonis was so great at drafting.

Yet only 2 players he drafted play more than 20 Games in the NHL during his tenure (04-07), yet he alot better than Gillis.. Hmmm figure that one out.
  • 1

zackass.png


#345 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,860 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:52 AM

Surely,you can digest some of the nonsense you are writing.
After five NHL drafts Gillis has zero ( as in 0) draft picks playing for the club.
That is 000000000000%.
That Canucks GM you were sideswiping with your devotion for Gillis did more in three years on his own than Gillis has managed in five years.
If I count the players he was also responsible for drafting as Asst. GM of this club it could not make Gillis look worse than the blazing 0% average he now holds as his record.


Does that mean that our prospects won't ever play in the NHL? No.

I didn't know you write off 22 year olds because they haven't made the NHL yet. I don't know how Hodgson and Grabner ever made an impact after entering the NHL at such an old age.

We could have as many as 3 of our prospects on the team if there is a season. That's as many as Nonis ever had in his 4 year tenure. And Nonis didn't have a deep team to keep his prospects from making the NHL.
  • 0

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#346 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,687 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:08 AM

Really? Which three draft picks are those?

Kassian is not a pick.

Schroeder has not a chance in Christmas of making this club.

Tanev is not a pick.
  • 0

#347 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:10 AM

I have no idea what you are talking about.I have not participated in one of your Flames posts.
The argument is players drafted by Nonis or Gillis that play for this club.
Tanev was a Gagner family friend he brought to the Canucks.
Lack has never played for the Canucks.
Kassian is not a Gillis draft pick.
Do you want me to add all the present Canucks that Nonis is an Asst. GM and credited with bringing to this club?
How about all the draft picks they traded for players?
Gillis has zero.Not one.Nada.He has a record that any one of us can do-nothing.


Okay let's compare the two.

Significant Free Agent Signings:

Dave Nonis:
- Willie Mitchell
- Marc Chouinard
- Jan Bulis
- Rory Fitzpatrick
- Byron Ritchie
- Brad Isbister
- Aaron Miller

Mike Gillis:
- Dan Hamhuis
- Mikeal Sammuelson
- Manny Malhotra
- Jason Garrison
- Stever Bernier
- Pavol Demitra
- Mats Sundin
- Andrew Raycroft

Don't know if I am missing any on Gillis's end but clearly Gillis is better in this area: Gillis > Nonis.

Drafting/Free Agent Rookies Signings (Impact during Tenure)

Since it is impossible to know what will happen with Gillis's latest picks, we will just compare on impact during the tenure of each GM. (How mayn players played more than 20 Games during each GM's tenure that were either drafted or signed)

Dave Nonis:
- Alex Edler
- Mason Raymond
- Luc Bourdon

Mike Gillis:
- Cody Hodgson
- Chris Tanev

So there that is a slight edge to Nonis, but I think it should be noted that Gillis has had a much better team than Nonis has, also it is to be noted that Nonis had to call up Edler, Bourdon & Raymond due to injuries (Edler & Bourdon in particular) Not because they were actually ready.

Then you can go over the trades yourself, Nonis made perhaps the biggest trade in our history (Luongo) But also made many blunders, including Trading Sopel for a 3rd, then later trading a 2nd to get him back, and also trading a 2nd for Mikka Noronen (Which turned out to be Jonas Enroth), Traded Cloutier away for pretty much nothing (A 2nd and a conditional pick).

And also Nonis is also responsible for one of our worst picks in our history (Patrick White) Infact from that draft year (2007) none of the players we chose have ever played a game in the NHL.


If you are looking at drafting, I would say it is pretty even, too soon to tell, signings Gillis has a clear advantage, and even trades Gillis has made some really good one's and aside from the Lu deal Nonis didn't make much.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 22 December 2012 - 05:15 AM.

  • 0

zackass.png


#348 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:13 AM

Really? Which three draft picks are those?

Kassian is not a pick.

Schroeder has not a chance in Christmas of making this club.

Tanev is not a pick.


Kassian = the Hodgson pick. Hodgson if still on the team would have been a for sure roster player, so it is only fair to count Kassian in his place.

Tanev and Lack still count as rookie signings, not picks but it is the same thing, MG scouted them and targetted them and signed them, basiclly the same thing it's still acquiring prospects.

So the 3 are: Lack, Tanev and Kassian.

And now that you brought up Schroeder, even he has a good opportunity, and you saying he doesn't have a chance without justiying your reasoning is just reflective of your ignorance and lack of knowlodge on the player.
  • 0

zackass.png


#349 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:14 AM

That's fair, I stuck Brodie and Connauton together as they are both more offensive defenceman and the same age, whereas Tanev is more defensive. I also figured both Brodie and Connauton would be in the AHL regardless this year, whereas Tanev would have likely been in the NHL.
Plus TBH, I've gotten so used to Tanev being around the last 2 years, I'd thought he played a lot more games than he has.


Yeah I agree, I feel like that too but Tanev is still in the same area as Brodie but age wise and development wise.
  • 0

zackass.png


#350 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,687 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:14 AM

I love how you balatently ignored his free agent point, which Gillis has proved he is very proficent in that area.
And you act like Nonis was so great at drafting.


The free agency situation is night and day difference in Gillis' vs Nonis' tenure.
The free agent and UFA markets changed dramatically in 2008,Gillis' first year as GM.All GM's changed strategy that year,as would have Nonis if he had remained here.
The topic was draft picks,if you care to add anything of merit.
Nonis had three years of drafting and he has 4 of his own and many more with Burke as core Canucks Gillis inherited.
Gillis has had five years and has zero draft picks on the squad.
  • 0

#351 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,687 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:16 AM

Kassian.Hello? IT AINT' ABOUT FREE AGENTS.It is draft picks.

You completely brain dead?

The FA and UFA markets changed dramatically in Gillis' first year.

Try again-on topic.
  • 0

#352 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,687 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:17 AM

Kassian = the Hodgson pick. Hodgson if still on the team would have been a for sure roster player, so it is only fair to count Kassian in his place.

Tanev and Lack still count as rookie signings, not picks but it is the same thing, MG scouted them and targetted them and signed them, basiclly the same thing it's still acquiring prospects.

So the 3 are: Lack, Tanev and Kassian.

And now that you brought up Schroeder, even he has a good opportunity, and you saying he doesn't have a chance without justiying your reasoning is just reflective of your ignorance and lack of knowlodge on the player.


Even with spell check you can't spell and I am ignorant?
Go to bed.
  • 0

#353 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:25 AM

Kassian.Hello? IT AINT' ABOUT FREE AGENTS.It is draft picks.

You completely brain dead?

The FA and UFA markets changed dramatically in Gillis' first year.

Try again-on topic.

The free agency situation is night and day difference in Gillis' vs Nonis' tenure.
The free agent and UFA markets changed dramatically in 2008,Gillis' first year as GM.All GM's changed strategy that year,as would have Nonis if he had remained here.
The topic was draft picks,if you care to add anything of merit.
Nonis had three years of drafting and he has 4 of his own and many more with Burke as core Canucks Gillis inherited.
Gillis has had five years and has zero draft picks on the squad.


How is the market any different? It was the exact same CBA, exact same rules? Gillis is clearly better at getting players to come here, even in 08/09 when we were projected to finish terribly in the standings Gillis was still able to get some good players to come here. So explain how it was different since you won't admit Gillis is clearly better when it comes to signing players.

Okay drafting and player development. You have to include Rookie signings in this aswell because it is basicly the exact same thing as drafting, just instead of drafting you wait and acquire the player as a free agent. It's still the same risk involved with a pick as we have seen some signings not turn out (Erixon, Oberg, exc.) So if you aren't willing to include this area (Which Nonis also used and failed at, ei. Dipenta, Goren, Atiken exc.) then your not making a fair argument, so here is the rookies that have played significant games.

Nonis:
- Bourdon
- Raymond
- Edler

Gillis:
- Hodgson
- Tanev

Then you consider that Lack & Schroeder would also have reached that mark if not for the lockout, so you can potentially add 2 more to the list.

And to top all that off Gillis has had better teams, and he also hasn't had to call up guys due to injury who weren't getting the shot due to development but rather a shortage of players, which is the case in all of Nonis's call-ups.

So even without free agent signings, when you compare the players who actually earned a spot rather than getting called up due to injuries:

Nonis:
-

Gillis:
- Hodgson


So where exactly is Nonis better?


Even with spell check you can't spell and I am ignorant?
Go to bed.


Glad you actually replied to points.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 22 December 2012 - 05:27 AM.

  • 0

zackass.png


#354 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,860 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:32 AM

Kassian = the Hodgson pick. Hodgson if still on the team would have been a for sure roster player, so it is only fair to count Kassian in his place.

Tanev and Lack still count as rookie signings, not picks but it is the same thing, MG scouted them and targetted them and signed them, basiclly the same thing it's still acquiring prospects.

So the 3 are: Lack, Tanev and Kassian.

And now that you brought up Schroeder, even he has a good opportunity, and you saying he doesn't have a chance without justiying your reasoning is just reflective of your ignorance and lack of knowlodge on the player.


I don't even wanna respond to this guy anymore. He's like a mosquito buzzing around your ear.

I agree, it doesn't matter if they were drafted, undrafted, or acquired through trade. Nonis had the same ability to acquire prospects that way. So those 3 are most likely, but if it has to be picks I think Schroeder, Jensen, and Sauve or Connauton could realistically see some games.

Writing off Schroeder just shows ignorance on his part. He'll be on the team this year. Gillis is gonna at least give him a shot, since he's pretty much at the point where it's now or never. He has made some great strides in his defensive game this year too, for those of us who watch him.

Also, Jensen has a good shot of making the team later in the year. He's likely going to remain on his SEL team for the season, but they won't make the playoffs so he'll be done in April. And if there is an NHL season, it will be extended into May, and I could see the Canucks giving him games at the end of the season to see if he can be used in the playoffs. He's looked real good so far, and after a full season in the SEL could realistically be ready. The thing that has kept our prospects back in the past has been things like skating, size, or defensive play. Jensen is good in all three of those areas.

And Sauve or Connauton will get their shot this season if there is one. Sauve has been given 5 games in the past and looked decent, I think they will wanna see what he can do after another full season in the AHL. I think he's more likely based on AV's love for grittier players. Sauve can at least be as good as Rome. But Connauton may get the call if we're looking for a puck mover.

We'll definitely see some prospects on the roster though, I guarantee it. Gillis has said that he wants to start giving guys like Schroeder some games.

Edited by DeNiro, 22 December 2012 - 05:38 AM.

  • 0

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#355 Smashian Kassian

Smashian Kassian

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,192 posts
  • Joined: 10-June 10

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:37 AM

I don't even wanna respond to this guy anymore. He's like a mosquito buzzing around your ear.

I agree, it doesn't matter if they were drafted, undrafted, or acquired through trade. Nonis had the same ability to acquire prospects that way. So those 3 are most likely, but if it has to be picks I think Schroeder, Jensen, and Sauve or Connauton could realistically see some games.

Writing off Schroeder just shows ignorance on his part. He'll be on the team this year. Gillis is gonna at least give him a shot, since he's pretty much at the point where it's now or never. He has made some great strides in his defensive game this year too, for those of us who watch him.

Also, Jensen has a good shot of making the team later in the year. He's likely going to remain on his SEL team for the season, but they won't make the playoffs so he'll be done in April. And if there is an NHL season, it will be extended into May, and I could see the Canucks giving him games at the end of the season to see if he can be used in the playoffs. He's looked real good so far, and after a full season in the SEL could realistically be ready. The thing that has kept our prospects back in the past has been things like skating, size, or defensive play. Jensen is good in all three of those areas.

And Sauve or Connauton will get their shot this season if there is one. Sauve has been given 5 games in the past and looked decent, I think they will wanna see what he can do after another full season in the NHL. I think he's more likely based on AV's love fore grittier players. Sauve can at least be as good as Rome. But Connauton may get the call if we're looking for a puck mover.

We'll definitely see some prospects on the roster though, I guarantee it. Gillis has said that he wants to start giving guys like Schroeder some games.


Agree 100%, Schroeder will see time, and all those guys you mention will be given a shot in the NHL, some will be better than others but they will all make it, Gillis puts more into development and bringing rookies along, he seems to be willing to give chances.

As for him, I don't even know what he is complaining about, Gillis brought this team to a new level, the core is the same but it's the additions that are so impressive and the way they have brought the team together.

And also, alot of our core were important players when Gillis was still around. (Sedins, Luongo, Bieksa, Kesler) Even Salo, Ohlund & Mitchell were able to experiance more success under Gillis than with Nonis.

If all he is complaining about is drafting then it is way to early to tell, but right now it looks like Gillis has done a decent job when you consider the circumstances.
  • 0

zackass.png


#356 King of the ES

King of the ES

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,272 posts
  • Joined: 27-May 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:45 AM

And if Ehrhoff is so great then why didn't he have to same success in Buffalo that he did here?


If Kassian is so great then why hasn't he had the same success on the Wolves that he did on the Americans?
  • 0

#357 vv2

vv2

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,401 posts
  • Joined: 11-November 08

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:48 AM

If Kassian is so great then why hasn't he had the same success on the Wolves that he did on the Americans?

Because he's a bust
  • 0
Posted Image
Credit to -Vintage Canuck-

#358 King of the ES

King of the ES

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,272 posts
  • Joined: 27-May 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:51 AM

Your stupid argument makes me think of Jason Krog and Darren Haydar. AHL success means NOTHING


You're aware that Justin Schultz is 22 years old and a defenceman, right?
  • 0

#359 King of the ES

King of the ES

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,272 posts
  • Joined: 27-May 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:57 AM

Connauton can defend, it's just something he has to improve at.


Oh, OK. But Ehrhoff can't defend. I see.
  • 0

#360 King of the ES

King of the ES

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,272 posts
  • Joined: 27-May 12

Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:02 AM

I don't see Sauve as a bad pick. He is a solid defensive blueliner, aggressive with a mean streak - he was developing nicely and threatening to crack the Canucks roster when he was hit by a car, severely concussed, and missed months of the 2010 season. He was considered "pretty lucky to be playing after car crash" / "from hood ornament to the NHL|". Sauve is a solid guy who would have made the next step on many other rosters.


Though I think the last sentence is typical Canuck-homer rubbish, I do agree that he should be able to have an NHL career. He looked not out of place at all in the NHL last year.

But it is a concern that he's just not doing anything in the AHL, and he's got to turn it around pretty quickly as he's a couple years away from "bust" territory. I was always intrigued by the fact that he was the 1st overall pick in the QMJHL.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.