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Canucks making critical mistakes in hindsight?


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#421 King of the ES

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

His attitude is that we have a good opportunity here, and that we want to bring in character players who want to be here, want to be part of it and will buy into our system.

He & everyone in the organization pretty much have publicly said this alot of times I'm surprised you didn't know this.


Oh, thanks for that stunning insight. Please show me the NHL teams that want to bring in players that lack character and want to be somewhere else.
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#422 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

I'm implying that maybe we have more issues than we think.

I'm also implying that if Gillis has the attitude that Vancouver's a "destination franchise", and that he thus shouldn't need to work very hard to land quality FAs (as appears to be the case with Schultz), that is a poor and risky attitude to have.

Or maybe that there are no real issues in general and that still means players want to go elsewhere. Do you think the attitude that Vancouver is a "destination franchise" automatically means that he also thinks all free agents will come here?

Also that doesn't appear to be the case with Shultz at all. Many on here thought he would come here and many on here think every free agent will come here but the reality is that sometimes other things take precedence over how that team is doing now. Shultz chose what was probably the best destination for him for now and for his future.

I think you're making a guess that one automatically means the other and I think that guess is incorrect. Vancouver is very much a destination franchise right now. It's a franchise that spends money and wins; just because of that though it does not automatically mean that every FA will want to be here. On that note it also doesn't imply that because every FA doesn't automatically want to be here that there are issues with the franchise.
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#423 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

2010-11: 65 GP, 2 G, 5 A
2011-12: 47 GP, 1 G, 6 A

I'm sorry, but you are not dealing with reality if you say that at $4.25M per year, Keith Ballard is "unfairly criticized".


Even there shows an improvment, same amount of points in 20 Less games.

I guess you didn't watch the playoffs. I guess you didn't see him as one of the very very very very very few players who decided it might be a good idea to actually show up and play your best.

For a player who get's no PP time, who plays on the 3rd pair with limited minutes and who is put into defensive situations, I'm not surprised he has few points, but I think it is impressive to note he is a career +10 in Vancouver.

And BTW, have you ever heard of intangables? He's actually a good defensemen, he did improve regardless of what you think, since you really can't prove or anaylize anything aside from reading a stat sheet, I'm sorry he can't put up 50 Points on the 3rd pair with no PP time.

New question: if he's so good, what's he doing playing on the bottom 6? Is that another "Coach Conspiracy", like it is with Ballard?


I don't know, I'm not the only one who has complained about Arniel's roster decisions. Ossi kept making jokes that he is an alcoholic.

Quite frankly I don't know, he was actually on the 2nd line with Sweatt.. and Ebbett I think and they put up like 4 Points in 2 game or 6 Points in 2 games of something like that they for some reason Arniel broke them up shortly after.

He has had his fair share of bad games but it's not as bad as you think, and quite frankly I don't know how you know enough about it to make a fair judgment considering you don't watch any of the games so you don't know what's going on, then you don't take circumstances into consideration and u just read stats sheets all day long.

Whatever you say holds little merrit till you start tuning into the games and posting in the GDT. exc.

AV is just a convenient scapegoat for people unwilling to admit that the players simply did not perform. He's done nothing to warrant losing his job.


Convenient Scapegoat?! LOL! Hello! Luongo has been the 'Convenient Scapegoat'!

Even with Cory in net the issue's were the same, goaltending isn't the problem!!!

When the players don't preform year after year after year, and the losses are painfully similar, I think that shows the problem isn't the players, especially when you see what they are capable of.

I like AV in some areas, but honestly I want the cup, I don't want great regular season success, so I think a change (aslong as we bring in the right guy) Would be beneficial to our cup chances, similar to Pittsburgh in 09.
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#424 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 03:10 PM

Oh, thanks for that stunning insight. Please show me the NHL teams that want to bring in players that lack character and want to be somewhere else.


I'm not sure why you bring this up, just trying to twist things so you don't have to admit you don't know whats going on Perhaps?

Cause really your question isn't even related to what we were talking about, it's just spinning it elsewhere.
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#425 nuck nit

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

Oh, thanks for that stunning insight. Please show me the NHL teams that want to bring in players that lack character and want to be somewhere else.


Ha Ha Ha.
Ho Ho Ho

Merry Christmas.
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#426 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

Oh, thanks for that stunning insight. Please show me the NHL teams that want to bring in players that lack character and want to be somewhere else.


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#427 King of the ES

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

When the players don't preform year after year after year, and the losses are painfully similar, I think that shows the problem isn't the players, especially when you see what they are capable of.


But, according to you, they lost because they were injured, so how exactly is that AV's fault?
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#428 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

But, according to you, they lost because they were injured, so how exactly is that AV's fault?


Okay aside from that year then, what about last year? What about 09? what about 10?
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#429 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

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+1 but Don't forget:

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#430 van_ws

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

A few years ago I really liked the direction we were headed in. The goal was clear - we had an all star goalie who needed some support around him, so that what we went out and got. We got Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Ballard, Malhotra, etc all in an attempt to play a "D first" mentality. In addition, our stars were starting to shine up front so goal scoring wasn't a concern.

Now all of a sudden we have a changing of the guard in net, our top scorers have been shut down in critical playoff games for the past two seasons, and we have no real notable players coming up from the farm. We traded away our prized prospect, and we still get run and beaten up physically by all the other teams.

Our biggest problem is that our core is not getting any younger and we don't have any up and coming players who can take over the role of "core players" in a few seasons.

It remains to be seen how we stack up once hockey gets going again, but I can't help but feel that we missed our window of opportunity and that the window won't come again till a whole rebuild takes place again.


Agreed. If an entire season is lost to the lockout then it hurts the team even more. In my opinion, the window may have well closed already. Lets see how the next season plays out first though.
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#431 nuck nit

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:06 PM

+1 but Don't forget:

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Stanley Cup Champions and a coastal,subtropical climatemixed with mountains that deliver winter skiing and snow past times.
Hard sell to play there.
Snow skiing at six different resorts:
http://www.skisoutheast.com/
Endless,white sand beaches where you can actually swim in warm water:
http://www.north-car...thcarolina.html

Ok,so both Carolina and Vancouver offer outstanding geography ,although Vancouver is freezing and raining most of the year and Carolina is warm year 'round.

Gillis offers 'bold moves','sleep specialists' and 'outside the box' thinking.
That's what makes Vancouver the preferred destination amongst professionals.
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#432 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

Stanley Cup Champions and a coastal,subtropical climatemixed with mountains that deliver winter skiing and snow past times.
Hard sell to play there.
Snow skiing at six different resorts:
http://www.skisoutheast.com/
Endless,white sand beaches where you can actually swim in warm water:
http://www.north-car...thcarolina.html

Ok,so both Carolina and Vancouver offer outstanding geography ,although Vancouver is freezing and raining most of the year and Carolina is warm year 'round.

Gillis offers 'bold moves','sleep specialists' and 'outside the box' thinking.
That's what makes Vancouver the preferred destination amongst professionals.


I'm not saying he doesn't want to play there, but it's obvious the only reason he chose to sign there is because they were the only team willing to meet his rediculous demand of 7 Million.

That's why he signed in Carolina, not because he truley wanted to play there like Hamhuis and Garrison did here.
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#433 nuck nit

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

You don't provide any evidence to support your theory but $7m can't be a deterrent.
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#434 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

You don't provide any evidence to support your theory but $7m can't be a deterrent.


well that would explain why it took so long for someone to sign him, no one was willing to meet his price, until Carolina stepped up.

If it was down to Carolina or another team that is better (Say Philly or NYR) and both had offered the same amount of $$ I'm sure he would have chosen Philly or NYR.

And on the flip side if no one had offered him that money my guess is that he would have went to Russia.
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#435 nuck nit

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:56 AM

If I were Russian or a European I most likely would not have grown up wanting to win a Stanley Cup.

I would be more focused on the prizes at my national and international levels.He has two gold medals in World Cup Championships play,silvers,bronze.

Semin is a massive talent and really has nothing to prove.He may not even have a desire to have a cup.

Florida,Tampa,Carolina,Atlanta,Anaheim,LA,Nashville-wherever.

Canadians grow up wanting a cup. Players from other nations may want to feel the sun on their bones and get paid well to do it.

Not everybody has a desire to see rain and clouds eight months of the year.

I say good for him.
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#436 Salmonberries

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:56 AM

Well at least it beats making critical errors in foresight.
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#437 King of the ES

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 08:44 AM

If I were Russian or a European I most likely would not have grown up wanting to win a Stanley Cup.

I would be more focused on the prizes at my national and international levels.He has two gold medals in World Cup Championships play,silvers,bronze.

Semin is a massive talent and really has nothing to prove.He may not even have a desire to have a cup.

Florida,Tampa,Carolina,Atlanta,Anaheim,LA,Nashville-wherever.

Canadians grow up wanting a cup. Players from other nations may want to feel the sun on their bones and get paid well to do it.

Not everybody has a desire to see rain and clouds eight months of the year.

I say good for him.


Bang on, great post. I would've loved to see the Canucks sign Semin. Could well turn out to be the signing of the summer. A guy with that level of talent is very, very rare. People question his character because he hasn't performed well in the playoffs. Well, guess what; the exact same thing was said about the Sedin's until they were roughly 28/29 years old. "Shy away when it counts, not clutch performers", etc. You can't hold back talent forever.

And on the issue of "character", what do you think of Alex Burrows'? The hair-pulling, finger-biter himself? Or what about Kesler, voted as the league's biggest diver? And when has Gillis shown a reluctance to sign guys of questionable character? Shane O'Brien, Mike Duco...?

EDIT: how about the character of Zack Kassian?

Following the Memorial Cup win, Kassian was arrested after an altercation at a bar in Downtown Windsor on May 30, 2010. Charged with assault, he reached an agreement several months later, in October 2010. The charge was dropped in exchange for 25 hours of community service, a $500 donation to charity and payment for the victim's dental work.[12]Had he been convicted, Kassian would have been ineligible to cross the border into the United States,[notes 1] which would have conflicted with his hockey career.

Edited by King of the ES, 24 December 2012 - 08:54 AM.

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#438 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:48 AM

I relate Semin signing in Carolina to us signing Demitra a few years ago, or Sundin. Those signings also made us a competitive team before we were ready to be, and then lent credibility to us as a destination for players in the years that followed.

They are building a nice young team and a veteran like Semin with the ability to make others better, even if expensive, can help carry their young guns through till they are ready to be stars.

Great signing for Washington, but we can no longer be interested at that price.

We need to be like Detroit; getting older veterans (Bertuzzi, Chelios, Larry Murphy, etc, etc, etc...) who have 1st line talent but their bodies cant do it anymore. So they sign for discounts to extend their career and play key support roles on a winner.


well that would explain why it took so long for someone to sign him, no one was willing to meet his price, until Carolina stepped up.

If it was down to Carolina or another team that is better (Say Philly or NYR) and both had offered the same amount of $$ I'm sure he would have chosen Philly or NYR.

And on the flip side if no one had offered him that money my guess is that he would have went to Russia.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 24 December 2012 - 09:52 AM.

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#439 King of the ES

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:59 AM

I relate Semin signing in Carolina to us signing Demitra a few years ago, or Sundin. Those signings also made us a competitive team before we were ready to be, and then lent credibility to us as a destination for players in the years that followed.


The difference is that Semin has far more to gain in Carolina than either Demitra or Sundin did when they signed with us. Demitra signed with us as a 34 year-old; Sundin was 37. Both guys obviously at the tail ends of their careers.

Semin is only 28.
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#440 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

The difference is that Semin has far more to gain in Carolina than either Demitra or Sundin did when they signed with us. Demitra signed with us as a 34 year-old; Sundin was 37. Both guys obviously at the tail ends of their careers.

Semin is only 28.

No doubt Semin at 28 is Carolina looking at a player that will play for them for a long time. Sundin and Demitra were certainly both signed to make an immediate impact. I wouldn't say what you said was wrong (quite the opposite actually) but I would change it up a bit and say that Carolina has far more to gain with Semin than Vancouver did signing Demitra or Sundin.

Make no mistake though that the big reasons Semin went there is because they are a good team (record not withstanding) and they backed up a giant truck full of money down his driveway and said sign here.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 24 December 2012 - 10:50 AM.

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#441 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

I relate Semin signing in Carolina to us signing Demitra a few years ago, or Sundin. Those signings also made us a competitive team before we were ready to be, and then lent credibility to us as a destination for players in the years that followed.

They are building a nice young team and a veteran like Semin with the ability to make others better, even if expensive, can help carry their young guns through till they are ready to be stars.

Great signing for Washington, but we can no longer be interested at that price.

We need to be like Detroit; getting older veterans (Bertuzzi, Chelios, Larry Murphy, etc, etc, etc...) who have 1st line talent but their bodies cant do it anymore. So they sign for discounts to extend their career and play key support roles on a winner.


Although Demitra wasn't paid 7 Million, he wasn't even paid all that well at all, Semin just went to Carolina because they offered the money.
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#442 nuck nit

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

You don't know that,Kassian, so that is speculation and hearsay.

However,I worked in horrendous jobs for the pay so who can blame him ,even if it is true?

As for Kassian's little dust up,I find that situations like these are but incidents of youth that can help one mature.
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#443 LeanBeef

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

Torres wanted to re-sign.. he wanted alittle raise from the 1m he got and MG said no you can screw off lol. Instead he signed some useless players like Bitz, Pinozotto and Duco to replace Torre's grit.

The Torres/Lappy/Hansen line was one of our best line in our playoff run and was an impact player for us both good and bad. MG underestimated how important role player he was.

Somewhat true, we actually offered him 1.7 mil but he opted to go for less money (1 mil) but a longer contract with Phoenix.
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#444 nuck nit

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

Somewhat true, we actually offered him(Torres) 1.7 mil but he opted to go for less money (1 mil) but a longer contract with Phoenix.


Incorrect.He was offered the same 'TRYOUT' contract and no term.
http://www.nucksmisc...a-raffi-tribute

"The Canucks wanted me back but for a year and at the same money. I didn't want to be in a position where I was on a tryout contract again. I have to move beyond that." Raffi
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#445 nuck nit

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

Although Demitra wasn't paid 7 Million, he wasn't even paid all that well at all, Semin just went to Carolina because they offered the money.


$4 million per year for a 34 and 35 year old aging veteran (God rest his soul,just talking hockey $$ here).
23 G,46 A for $8,000,000.00.
Yes,he was injured in his second and last contract year,but it is what it is.
Pavol was a Gillis client and there was lots of speculation on the web that when he signed he was being given a gift contract.
Pavol was well paid and even over paid.
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#446 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 11:38 PM

$4 million per year for a 34 and 35 year old aging veteran (God rest his soul,just talking hockey $$ here).
23 G,46 A for $8,000,000.00.
Yes,he was injured in his second and last contract year,but it is what it is.
Pavol was a Gillis client and there was lots of speculation on the web that when he signed he was being given a gift contract.
Pavol was well paid and even over paid.


Are you sure it was 4 Mill? Alright nvm I thaught it was 2 I was wrong then.

But if you are comparing the 2 and what they bring, Demitra brings more character and is a better teammate and leader.

This is all beside the original point though.
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#447 Baggins

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 01:53 AM

Are you sure it was 4 Mill? Alright nvm I thaught it was 2 I was wrong then.

But if you are comparing the 2 and what they bring, Demitra brings more character and is a better teammate and leader.

This is all beside the original point though.


It was 4m per year. But, 4m to 5m was what 50-ish point UFA's were getting that summer. Dimitra signed on the low side of free agent market value. The high side was players aged 28 to 32.
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#448 nuck nit

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

Pavol was paid $4 million in 2008 -9 and in 2009-10.

Only Sundin,Bieksa and Luongo were paid more than Pavol and Pavol's cap hit was the second amongst skaters,behind Sundin in 08/09.

In his second year the Sedins were granted their contracts ,otherwise Pavol would have been the highest paid Canucks skater.

The Black Hawks won the cup that year.The only Chicago forward to make more than Pavol was Marion Hossa.

In 2008-2009 when Pittsburgh won the cup the only forwards that earned more than Pavol were Crosby and Guerin.

Pavol's 18 year professional career in North America came to an end.It began as a 19 year old Senator and ended as a 36 year old Canuck.

RIP ,Pavol.

Edited by nuck nit, 25 December 2012 - 10:51 PM.

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#449 Baggins

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 11:16 PM

Pavol was paid $4 million in 2008 -9 and in 2009-10.

Only Sundin,Bieksa and Luongo were paid more than Pavol and Pavol's cap hit was the second amongst skaters,behind Sundin in 08/09.

In his second year the Sedins were granted their contracts ,otherwise Pavol would have been the highest paid Canucks skater.

The Black Hawks won the cup that year.The only Chicago forward to make more than Pavol was Marion Hossa.

In 2008-2009 when Pittsburgh won the cup the only forwards that earned more than Pavol were Crosby and Guerin.

Pavol's 18 year professional career in North America came to an end.It began as a 19 year old Senator and ended as a 36 year old Canuck.

RIP ,Pavol.


It doesn't change what market value is in a given year. What happened in Chicago after winng the cup? Several players disappeared with their expired contracts. You can't compare Dimitra's contract to what the Sedins were being paid as the Sedins contract was signed years before when the cap was considerably lower. You have to compare to what others were getting the year the contract is signed. As the cap goes up salaries go up.
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#450 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

Bang on, great post. I would've loved to see the Canucks sign Semin. Could well turn out to be the signing of the summer. A guy with that level of talent is very, very rare. People question his character because he hasn't performed well in the playoffs. Well, guess what; the exact same thing was said about the Sedin's until they were roughly 28/29 years old. "Shy away when it counts, not clutch performers", etc. You can't hold back talent forever.

And on the issue of "character", what do you think of Alex Burrows'? The hair-pulling, finger-biter himself? Or what about Kesler, voted as the league's biggest diver? And when has Gillis shown a reluctance to sign guys of questionable character? Shane O'Brien, Mike Duco...?

EDIT: how about the character of Zack Kassian?

Following the Memorial Cup win, Kassian was arrested after an altercation at a bar in Downtown Windsor on May 30, 2010. Charged with assault, he reached an agreement several months later, in October 2010. The charge was dropped in exchange for 25 hours of community service, a $500 donation to charity and payment for the victim's dental work.[12]Had he been convicted, Kassian would have been ineligible to cross the border into the United States,[notes 1] which would have conflicted with his hockey career.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Semin's character isn't questioned because he doesn't preform in the playoffs (Which isn't even true his playoffs stats are actually not bad) it's because he is has a bad attitude and a terrible work ethic. I'm a fan of his but I am very glad we didn't sign him myself., especially at 7 Million which would have handicapped the possibility of us being able to make any other moves to add complementary pieces like we have in the past.

And yes King, Burrow's has terrible character. Rising up from the ECHL as a 24 year old, never giving up oon his dream shows he has no character. And Kesler one of our best leaders, one of our hardest workers definetly has character issue's.

And as for ZK, that was stupid but that's not a character issue, and the proof is that he took his mistake and learned from it, learned how to be a professional and is working extremely hard and has worked extremely hard to get better.

Do you know what character issue's are? Cause I don't see anyone on our team that has them.
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