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Canucks making critical mistakes in hindsight?


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#451 SEAN HARNETT

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:12 AM

Yep, because then you just over paid for Bieksa 1 year later.

I love the short-term memories of Canuck fans. Bieksa's been as hot-and-cold as anybody on this team, year-by-year. Twice he's been the whipping boy and I would venture a guess that that trend will continue.

I far would've rather the Canucks invested in Ehrhoff, due to the scarcity of his skillset.


Bieksa brings way more to the table the Ehrhoff. I'm an Ehrhoff fan and think your statement is a bit out to lunch!
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#452 nuck nit

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:30 AM

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Semin's character isn't questioned because he doesn't preform in the playoffs (Which isn't even true his playoffs stats are actually not bad) it's because he is has a bad attitude and a terrible work ethic. I'm a fan of his but I am very glad we didn't sign him myself., especially at 7 Million which would have handicapped the possibility of us being able to make any other moves to add complementary pieces like we have in the past.

And yes King, Burrow's has terrible character. Rising up from the ECHL as a 24 year old, never giving up oon his dream shows he has no character. And Kesler one of our best leaders, one of our hardest workers definetly has character issue's.

And as for ZK, that was stupid but that's not a character issue, and the proof is that he took his mistake and learned from it, learned how to be a professional and is working extremely hard and has worked extremely hard to get better.

Do you know what character issue's are? Cause I don't see anyone on our team that has them.


Both Kesler and Burrows have been dogged with 'character' issues for years.

As for Semin,I found that very talented players sometimes look like they are not even trying and they outperform everyone around them.

If Slava Malamud, a Foreign Correspondent for Sport-Express, Russia's sports daily and an NHL.com contributor, is to be believed, CSKA has submitted a pretty huge standing offer to lure him back home. According to Malamud, "There are unconfirmed reports that CSKA's offer to Semin stands at 3 years, $30 million."
Now, again, these are just rumours, but even if the numbers aren't quite that high, it's a safe bet that Semin is being offered more to play in the KHL than he's going to get in the NHL.

It seems to me that Semin's waiting for the right NHL deal, which strikes me as the sort of thing a player who wants to play in the NHL would do. But that's just me.

The contract will inevitably be for decent money, too, but there's no way it's going to be what the KHL is reportedly offering, and that's noteworthy. If Semin stays in North America and leaves money -- potentially a lot of it -- on the table to do so, I think we need to stop speculating on whether or not he wants to be here.
http://sports.yahoo....27442--nhl.html
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#453 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:05 AM

Both Kesler and Burrows have been dogged with 'character' issues for years.

As for Semin,I found that very talented players sometimes look like they are not even trying and they outperform everyone around them.

If Slava Malamud, a Foreign Correspondent for Sport-Express, Russia's sports daily and an NHL.com contributor, is to be believed, CSKA has submitted a pretty huge standing offer to lure him back home. According to Malamud, "There are unconfirmed reports that CSKA's offer to Semin stands at 3 years, $30 million."
Now, again, these are just rumours, but even if the numbers aren't quite that high, it's a safe bet that Semin is being offered more to play in the KHL than he's going to get in the NHL.

It seems to me that Semin's waiting for the right NHL deal, which strikes me as the sort of thing a player who wants to play in the NHL would do. But that's just me.

The contract will inevitably be for decent money, too, but there's no way it's going to be what the KHL is reportedly offering, and that's noteworthy. If Semin stays in North America and leaves money -- potentially a lot of it -- on the table to do so, I think we need to stop speculating on whether or not he wants to be here.
http://sports.yahoo....27442--nhl.html


Diving and embelishing aren't 'character issue's' a poor attitude and poor work ethic are character issue's, both things Kes and Burr don't have and Semin does have. (And I'm actually a Semin fan btw)

As for Semin, I see your point, I see that too with players like Ovechkin and Stamkos but even those guys back check hard, have a good work ethic and are committed to playing a complete game, Semin really isn't and lately he hasn't been producing like he should with his high skill level, to me that only speaks to work ethic.

If he can work hard this year he can easily get 30+ Goals and 60+ Points, and he better hope he does because I don't think anyone will want to give him another 7 Million next year if he doesn't put up 60 or more points.

I think he will stay here aslong as he can get good contracts, however I think he will eventually go to Russia while he still has some prime years left (Maybe when he's 31 or 32) and I doubt he will come back when he leaves.
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#454 Vancanwincup

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:27 AM

The arguement about Schultz 1.5 points per game ( which is no doubt unbelievable) should be argued based on whether or not he could do the same thing on a weak Wolves team without the elite talent of RNH and Hall.
I pretty sure it is safe to say Schultz would have a hard time putting up 1/3 the numbers on the Wolves, therefore, the talk would be about how Schultz is not as good as his hype.
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#455 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:47 AM

Meh; Demitra and Semin both were considered on the decline (for different reasons) and scored 54 points the year prior. Sure it could be presumed Semin has more of his career to resurrect. I think Sundin and Demitra were lured by more money than they could get elsewhere. But Semin apparently signed because he has something to prove; you might be right? It is pointed somewhere in this thread that he had, and still has a larger $30 mill, three year offer available in the KHL.

Why they signed, however, is not material to my argument at all. We did not sign Shea Weber; we overpaid second tier free agents to help elevate our young teams. Thats exactly what Carolina is doing. As much as they were second tier, they added some talent and veteran experience to otherwise young exciting teams still learning to punch up to their weight. While it was expensive, it worked for us and most likely will for Carolina as well?

And Semin for 1 year is a lot less risk than many contracts that have been offered recently. If Semin accomplishes proving his point in just 1 year; good on Carolina.

The difference is that Semin has far more to gain in Carolina than either Demitra or Sundin did when they signed with us. Demitra signed with us as a 34 year-old; Sundin was 37. Both guys obviously at the tail ends of their careers.

Semin is only 28.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 27 December 2012 - 08:09 PM.

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#456 King of the ES

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:24 PM

The arguement about Schultz 1.5 points per game ( which is no doubt unbelievable) should be argued based on whether or not he could do the same thing on a weak Wolves team without the elite talent of RNH and Hall.
I pretty sure it is safe to say Schultz would have a hard time putting up 1/3 the numbers on the Wolves, therefore, the talk would be about how Schultz is not as good as his hype.


The problem with this argument is that Schultz isn't "playing alongside elite talent", he is leading them.

Tied with Eberle for lead in points, has almost twice as many goals as Taylor Hall. Oh, leads the team in +/-, too, and only has 6 PIM.

Deny all you want, but this kid's future is insanely bright, and he's twice the prospect as anyone that we've got.
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#457 laxgoalie

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:35 PM

The problem with this argument is that Schultz isn't "playing alongside elite talent", he is leading them.

Tied with Eberle for lead in points, has almost twice as many goals as Taylor Hall. Oh, leads the team in +/-, too, and only has 6 PIM.

Deny all you want, but this kid's future is insanely bright, and he's twice the prospect as anyone that we've got.


Im going to have to go with King of Es here. I see Schultz, becoming a similar player to Duncan Keith. They both have similar career paths: Both drafted in the second round, both played in the BCHL, both played for a University team, and both played in the AHL because of a lockout. There's lots of obvious differences, of course, but I think Schultz will put up 60+pt seasons in his prime.

Edited by laxgoalie, 27 December 2012 - 02:36 PM.

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#458 Vancanwincup

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

The problem with this argument is that Schultz isn't "playing alongside elite talent", he is leading them.

Tied with Eberle for lead in points, has almost twice as many goals as Taylor Hall. Oh, leads the team in +/-, too, and only has 6 PIM.

Deny all you want, but this kid's future is insanely bright, and he's twice the prospect as anyone that we've got.


28 games played, we will see where he is, at the end of the seasons. I say he will be 4th on the team in points. Twice the prospect as anyone we have got :lol:. The kid is going to be good NHL player, but no where near your hype of him. :towel:
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#459 oldnews

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:51 PM

The difference is that Semin has far more to gain in Carolina than either Demitra or Sundin did when they signed with us. Demitra signed with us as a 34 year-old; Sundin was 37. Both guys obviously at the tail ends of their careers.

Semin is only 28.


Demitra's only full season as a Canuck: 20 goals, 33 assists, 53 points in 69 games - $4 million cap hit.

Semin last year - 21 goals, 33 assists, 54 points in 77 games - 6.7 million cap hit.

Always so negative regarding Vancouver's own, and then remarkably, the players you suggest bringing in...

Your ultra-soft, uber-overpaid solutions at right wing (Frolik, Semin) fail to impress.
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#460 oldnews

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:05 PM

Sad to see this sh!t being spoken of Demitra here. Great signing by Gillis.

768 points in 847 career NHL games - lifetime +124.

LOL at the idea that 53 points in 69 games as a Canuck in 2008/9 (.77 ppg) is the declining production of an old man - entirely consistent with what he had done for the previous decade.

10 points in 7 games for Slovakia at the 2010 Olympics.

60 points in 54 games in the KHL before tragically losing his life.

Outstanding, intelligent NHL player from start to finish.

Not a minute of it overpaid.
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#461 King of the ES

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

Demitra's only full season as a Canuck: 20 goals, 33 assists, 53 points in 69 games - $4 million cap hit.

Semin last year - 21 goals, 33 assists, 54 points in 77 games - 6.7 million cap hit.

Always so negative regarding Vancouver's own, and then remarkably, the players you suggest bringing in...

Your ultra-soft, uber-overpaid solutions at right wing (Frolik, Semin) fail to impress.


I love the Pavol Demitra endorsement in one sentence, followed up with "ultra-soft" when describing Alex Semin a few sentences later. Contradict much?
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#462 nuck nit

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

I love the Pavol Demitra endorsement in one sentence, followed up with "ultra-soft" when describing Alex Semin a few sentences later. Contradict much?


Ho Ho Ho
Ha Ha Ha
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#463 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

Getting back to topic; Demitra was a good signing for us. The OP's topic is critical mistakes.

On a one off basis, MG has not been making "critical mistakes"in any one transaction. Some say loosing Schultz was such a mistake. But we were in the short straws of a lottery; missed opportunity but not mistake. I have argued that, in reality, we have been rebuilding assets rather than filling the necessary roles of a winner. MG has been rebuilding on the fly rather than fielding our best team since the SCF. That is my assessment.

Old News is amongst the most supportive of MG.

King; you appear to just enjoy the debate? Aside from having not traded Scheneider earlier, thus avoiding the Lou controversy; what is your position on MG as a GM and his moves?
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#464 oldnews

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:26 PM

I love the Pavol Demitra endorsement in one sentence, followed up with "ultra-soft" when describing Alex Semin a few sentences later. Contradict much?


Don't know much about Demitra do you. To suggest that he was one of the Canucks 'errors' while Semin would be a stroke of intelligence is ridiculous. For the extra 3 million you are getting a lesser player in Semin. You might want to have a closer look at who Demitra actually was.

Demitra wasn't just an outstanding playmaking center - he was well-known as a two-way player - very good and intelligent defensive player - as noted was a +124 for his career - and more physical than you are implying - was a much more physical player than Semin.

Edited by oldnews, 27 December 2012 - 08:33 PM.

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#465 nuck nit

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:45 PM

10 points in 7 games for Slovakia at the 2010 Olympics.
Not a minute of it overpaid ( NHL playing time).


Ho Ho Ho
Ha Ha Ha

The talk around Vancouver Canucks land following the Olympics was that Pavol's game disappeared after his outstanding Olympic performance.

Pavol scored three times and added seven assists in seven games,leading all Olympians in scoring for the entire tournament.

Ironically,he scored three times for the Canucks in his final 28 NHL games.In four months-January through April,Pavol managed to score just three NHL goals.
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#466 oldnews

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

Ho Ho Ho
Ha Ha Ha

The talk around Vancouver Canucks land following the Olympics was that Pavol's game disappeared after his outstanding Olympic performance.

Pavol scored three times and added seven assists in seven games,leading all Olympians in scoring for the entire tournament.

Ironically,he scored three times for the Canucks in his final 28 NHL games.In four months-January through April,Pavol managed to score just three NHL goals.


OMG - Demitra only had 16 points in 28 games coming off his shoulder injury. What a bust.

The talk around Vancouver as usual was hardly worth listening to. Nothing more pathetic than the whiners in the Vancouver media (not exactly overachievers themselves) never getting off their player's backs.

The thing about Czechs and Slovaks - they tend to pour their hearts on the ice for their national teams/country. I certainly will never fault Demitra (or Hasek or a handfull of others) for putting their best performances out while wearing their Nation's jersey. I've had numerous shoulder injuries - it's possible to play injured, and I wouldn't be surprised if Demitra's reality in 2010 was a decision to play in the Olympics despite the fact he wasn't healthy - and the thing is, shoulder injuries don't go away anytime soon. The guy was a heart and soul player. He may have been a Gillis client, but really, there is very little point in complaining about the type of player that Demitra was.
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#467 nuck nit

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

OMG - Demitra only had 16 points in 28 games coming off his shoulder injury. What a bust.

The talk around Vancouver as usual was hardly worth listening to. Nothing more pathetic than the whiners in the Vancouver media (not exactly overachievers themselves) never getting off their player's backs.

The thing about Czechs and Slovaks - they tend to pour their hearts on the ice for their national teams/country. I certainly will never fault Demitra (or Hasek or a handfull of others) for putting their best performances out while wearing their Nation's jersey. I've had numerous shoulder injuries - it's possible to play injured, and I wouldn't be surprised if Demitra's reality in 2010 was a decision to play in the Olympics despite the fact he wasn't healthy - and the thing is, shoulder injuries don't go away anytime soon. The guy was a heart and soul player. He may have been a Gillis client, but really, there is very little point in complaining about the type of player that Demitra was.


Right.$4 million for three goals.Outstanding value.Certainly a gross insult to everyone,including the media,I would think.
Demitra rested for 2/3rds of a full season to perform and he managed just 3 goals in his final four months of NHL reg.season play.
Everybody plays exceptionally hard for their countries.Come on.
He was massively overpaid and he was not extended.
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#468 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:25 AM

The problem with this argument is that Schultz isn't "playing alongside elite talent", he is leading them.

Tied with Eberle for lead in points, has almost twice as many goals as Taylor Hall. Oh, leads the team in +/-, too, and only has 6 PIM.

Deny all you want, but this kid's future is insanely bright, and he's twice the prospect as anyone that we've got.


Your right, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle definetly aren't on the same team as Mr.Schultz, we are just all mistaken.

Im going to have to go with King of Es here. I see Schultz, becoming a similar player to Duncan Keith. They both have similar career paths: Both drafted in the second round, both played in the BCHL, both played for a University team, and both played in the AHL because of a lockout. There's lots of obvious differences, of course, but I think Schultz will put up 60+pt seasons in his prime.


Lol at this comparison, The kid great offensively but he is nowhere near the skater Keith is nor does he have the defensive ability.

28 games played, we will see where he is, at the end of the seasons. I say he will be 4th on the team in points. Twice the prospect as anyone we have got :lol:. The kid is going to be good NHL player, but no where near your hype of him. :towel:


Finally someone with some sense.

Getting back to topic; Demitra was a good signing for us. The OP's topic is critical mistakes.

On a one off basis, MG has not been making "critical mistakes"in any one transaction. Some say loosing Schultz was such a mistake. But we were in the short straws of a lottery; missed opportunity but not mistake. I have argued that, in reality, we have been rebuilding assets rather than filling the necessary roles of a winner. MG has been rebuilding on the fly rather than fielding our best team since the SCF. That is my assessment.

Old News is amongst the most supportive of MG.

King; you appear to just enjoy the debate? Aside from having not traded Scheneider earlier, thus avoiding the Lou controversy; what is your position on MG as a GM and his moves?


I'm still interested to hear how he thinks Schultz choosing Edmonton over us was a "mistake" myself.

Right.$4 million for three goals.Outstanding value.Certainly a gross insult to everyone,including the media,I would think.
Demitra rested for 2/3rds of a full season to perform and he managed just 3 goals in his final four months of NHL reg.season play.
Everybody plays exceptionally hard for their countries.Come on.
He was massively overpaid and he was not extended.


So he was paid 4 Million for the last 28 Games alone, makes sense.

4 Million for 50+ Points in 60+ Games, that is worth it to me, and at below market value for a player with his skill. I guess if you look at his struggles in the last 28 Games then you can say he was massively overpaid.

But if you look at the big picture like you should if you are willing to make a fair judgment, you would see the signing wasn't an overpayment and wasn't a terrible signing.

As for why he wasn't extended, we didn't need him anymore, we didn't need an offensive forward like him, Raymond emerged and grabbed that spot, and we wanted to get gritter and tougher to play against on the 3rd line, that explains why we parted ways with not only him but Grabner aswell.
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#469 nuck nit

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:09 PM

"Raymond emerged". Still waiting for that.'Grit' and 'Grittier' attached to Raymond is bizarre.
Raymond could not hold a candle to how Demitra was performing at the same age.
Demitra was an outstanding player in his prime.

Edited by nuck nit, 28 December 2012 - 04:18 PM.

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#470 King of the ES

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:14 PM

Don't know much about Demitra do you. To suggest that he was one of the Canucks 'errors' while Semin would be a stroke of intelligence is ridiculous. For the extra 3 million you are getting a lesser player in Semin. You might want to have a closer look at who Demitra actually was.

Demitra wasn't just an outstanding playmaking center - he was well-known as a two-way player - very good and intelligent defensive player - as noted was a +124 for his career - and more physical than you are implying - was a much more physical player than Semin.


Nice job at totally ignoring my point, which was your "ultra soft" comment about Semin, a label that could be worn very equally by Demitra. I never bashed the signing - at the time, I didn't love it, but I also didn't hate it. Only a 2-year deal, whatever. Not a horrible signing, but certainly not great, either.
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#471 oldnews

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

Right.$4 million for three goals.Outstanding value.Certainly a gross insult to everyone,including the media,I would think.
Demitra rested for 2/3rds of a full season to perform and he managed just 3 goals in his final four months of NHL reg.season play.
Everybody plays exceptionally hard for their countries.Come on.
He was massively overpaid and he was not extended.


Who cares about his salary? He was injured for 2/3 of the season - meaning his salary did not apply to the cap, which is all that really matters to a fan - Demitra's cap hit that year was actually 1.3 to 1.4 million that season as a result. Every player who was ever injured does not produce while they aren't in the lineup - the whole 4 million for 3 goals thing is a swing and a miss.
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#472 oldnews

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

Nice job at totally ignoring my point, which was your "ultra soft" comment about Semin, a label that could be worn very equally by Demitra. I never bashed the signing - at the time, I didn't love it, but I also didn't hate it. Only a 2-year deal, whatever. Not a horrible signing, but certainly not great, either.


Try reading the response again.
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#473 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

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#474 MC Fatigue

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:12 PM

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#475 nuck nit

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:42 PM

Who cares about his salary? He was injured for 2/3 of the season - meaning his salary did not apply to the cap, which is all that really matters to a fan - Demitra's cap hit that year was actually 1.3 to 1.4 million that season as a result. Every player who was ever injured does not produce while they aren't in the lineup - the whole 4 million for 3 goals thing is a swing and a miss.


As has been overly evident this non season the fans thoughts account for very little to the league's ownership group.
$4 million had to be paid out. Three goals were scored for said $4 million.
Fans don't care but management answers to the owners for that payout and insurance coverage vs the performance.
Surely,a healthy young Demitra is more desirable than an aging,injured Demitra.
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#476 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:36 AM

Semin, lol.

People complain about this team being too soft at times then their solution is a player like Alex Semin.
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#477 Bodee

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:15 AM

Semin, lol.

People complain about this team being too soft at times then their solution is a player like Alex Semin.


Well said sir!

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly CDC downgrade the team's requirements when any "name" is mentioned. I sometimes think the words "pushback" "big stay at home D" and "1st/2nd line game changer" should be emblazoned at the top of every thread, just to keep them in focus.

Mind you I have come to believe the same malady applies to our GM and scouts.
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#478 oldnews

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

Semin, lol.

People complain about this team being too soft at times then their solution is a player like Alex Semin.


Yeah, and they whine ceaselessly about contracts and playoffs no-shows and they want this overpaid disappearing act (4 points in 14 playoff games last year).


Well said sir!

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly CDC downgrade the team's requirements when any "name" is mentioned. I sometimes think the words "pushback" "big stay at home D" and "1st/2nd line game changer" should be emblazoned at the top of every thread, just to keep them in focus.

Mind you I have come to believe the same malady applies to our GM and scouts.


The Canucks drafted Gaunce and Mallet. Not soft - not going to be pushed around.
They moved soft and slow for Kassian.
Jensen - no reason to question him - at all. One of the best players in the SEL - at a very young age.
I'm not sure you're being too fair with your assessment of the scouts and GM - and I thought that your support of Raymond would suggest that you don't exclusively value push-back.
I'd give these guys a chance - I think Jensen will be a top quality top 6 game changer - the others will certainly provide some push back.
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#479 TimberWolf

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

Shultz was not a mistake. He was not ours to lose. He made a choice, we couldn't offer him more money and he obviously liked a situation where he wouldn't have to fight for ice time. Gillis offered the maximum he could.

No misake was made and people really need to let it go already.
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I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#480 nuck nit

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:30 AM

It's like you were there,timberwolf.
Pray tell what was offered and what was the 'maximum' Gillis extended?
I would like to make an informed decision and not be told what to think by some nobody.
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