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Canucks making critical mistakes in hindsight?


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#481 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:36 AM

It's like you were there,timberwolf.
Pray tell what was offered and what was the 'maximum' Gillis extended?
I would like to make an informed decision and not be told what to think by some nobody.


Okay Nuck, if you don't think that is the case.

Then what else do you think we could have done?
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#482 nuck nit

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:33 PM

First I need to know what was offered.I believe I just asked that question.
Clearly,Gillis could not offer the captaincy and some bizarre 12 year deal in case Schultz has a reoccurring injury that his medical staff has not clued in to.
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#483 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:35 PM

First I need to know what was offered.I believe I just asked that question.
Clearly,Gillis could not offer the captaincy and some bizarre 12 year deal in case Schultz has a reoccurring injury that his medical staff has not clued in to.


Okay the offer was a 2 year entry level contract with the max signing bonus, every team offered the same.

Now that you know what else could we have done?
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#484 nuck nit

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:52 PM

Everybody was vying for this kid's potential talent.
Give me the quote from Gillis on what he offered,not what you surmise or would like to extend was his offer.
Specifically,what did Gillis.org offer that would sway Justin here?
What was their sales pitch?
I am truly curious because whatever it was ,did not suffice.

Edited by nuck nit, 31 December 2012 - 05:06 PM.

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#485 Gollumpus

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

Everybody was vying for this kid's potential talent.
Give me the quote from Gillis on what he offered,not what you surmise or would like to extend was his offer.
Specifically,what did Gillis.org offer that would sway Justin here?
What was their sales pitch?
I am truly curious because whatever it was ,did not suffice.


1.) Well, there's very likely no quote from Gillis spelling out the specifics of what he believed coming to Vancouver would do for Schultz's career. As such, I guess the discussion ends here, unless you want to enter into the realm of speculation, in which case, proceed to #2.

2.) Players can increase their revenue through advertisments and promotions. Schultz was told he could do all of the ads for the local Tim Horton's in the Edmonton area.


regards,
G.
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Following the Canucks since before Don Cherry played here.

#486 TimberWolf

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

It's like you were there,timberwolf.
Pray tell what was offered and what was the 'maximum' Gillis extended?
I would like to make an informed decision and not be told what to think by some nobody.


He offered the maximum money as Shultz' situation allowed. After that it was down to the players personal choice and it's clear he preferred the Oiler situation. That's a wrap and that is that. To assume Gillis could have done more then what he did and refused for no reason is sloppy thinking.

Shultz was never ours to lose, so give it up.

If I am wrong, please enlighten everyone on what you believe Gillis left on the table that "lost us Shultz"
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I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#487 SamJamIam

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:50 PM

Everybody was vying for this kid's potential talent.
Give me the quote from Gillis on what he offered,not what you surmise or would like to extend was his offer.
Specifically,what did Gillis.org offer that would sway Justin here?
What was their sales pitch?
I am truly curious because whatever it was ,did not suffice.


Lol. In nuck nit's world he's an expert in sales who holds magical powers over all humankind. These are the delusions of someone whose closest experience to sales is being a corner store cashier.
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#488 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

Equally, there's no reason to believe Gillis offered the best he could to Schultz. Rest assured, if Edler walks and these questions arise, Gillis will tell us all about how Schultz' heart was not here, how he was a demanding brat that didn't want to earn his playing time and is not the kind of character the Canucks look for.

Garrison is gonna be good though.
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#489 nuck nit

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

“I grew up in Canada and wanted to play in a Canadian city,"


The defenseman was also at least partially coaxed to Alberta by several individuals connected to the Oilers' glory years, including two of the NHL's all-time greats in Wayne Gretzky and Paul Coffey, according to the Edmonton Journal.

“I don’t think I said one word when they called. I was in shock,” said Schultz. “For them to even take the time to call me, that’s something I’ll never forget.”
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#490 King of the ES

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:35 PM

“I grew up in Canada and wanted to play in a Canadian city,"

The defenseman was also at least partially coaxed to Alberta by several individuals connected to the Oilers' glory years, including two of the NHL's all-time greats in Wayne Gretzky and Paul Coffey, according to the Edmonton Journal.

“I don’t think I said one word when they called. I was in shock,” said Schultz. “For them to even take the time to call me, that’s something I’ll never forget.”


I wonder if meeting AV evoked the same reaction...?

:bigblush:
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#491 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:43 PM

Everybody was vying for this kid's potential talent.
Give me the quote from Gillis on what he offered,not what you surmise or would like to extend was his offer.
Specifically,what did Gillis.org offer that would sway Justin here?
What was their sales pitch?
I am truly curious because whatever it was ,did not suffice.

So what could they have offered that would have made him want to sign here instead of Edmonton? In your opinion of course and knowing that in Edmonton his chances of making the team and getting a decent amount of ice time was exponentially better there than here. (Unless you can somehow argue that his chances of playing were greater in Van than in Edmonton.)

Simple question...what could Gillis have done? Have Stan Smyl give the kid a call?

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 31 December 2012 - 10:44 PM.

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#492 Baggins

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:55 AM

Everybody was vying for this kid's potential talent.
Give me the quote from Gillis on what he offered,not what you surmise or would like to extend was his offer.
Specifically,what did Gillis.org offer that would sway Justin here?
What was their sales pitch?
I am truly curious because whatever it was ,did not suffice.


As Gillis was restricted to the maximun entry level contract, he offered to sharpen the kids skates and shine his shoes daily.

:picard:
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#493 Baggins

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:04 AM

“I grew up in Canada and wanted to play in a Canadian city,"


The defenseman was also at least partially coaxed to Alberta by several individuals connected to the Oilers' glory years, including two of the NHL's all-time greats in Wayne Gretzky and Paul Coffey, according to the Edmonton Journal.

“I don’t think I said one word when they called. I was in shock,” said Schultz. “For them to even take the time to call me, that’s something I’ll never forget.”


So what could they have offered that would have made him want to sign here instead of Edmonton? In your opinion of course and knowing that in Edmonton his chances of making the team and getting a decent amount of ice time was exponentially better there than here. (Unless you can somehow argue that his chances of playing were greater in Van than in Edmonton.)

Simple question...what could Gillis have done? Have Stan Smyl give the kid a call?


Maybe MG should have asked Bure to give him a call..... ::D
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#494 n00bxQb

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:14 AM

Justin Schultz even said that Gretzky, Coffey, etc. calling had no influence on his decision. He said that it was Edmonton's new coach that did the best sell job on Edmonton and he felt it was a system that both suited his style of play and supported his growth as an NHL player (in other words, they are going to play a run'n'gun style and he was guaranteed lots of ice time).
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#495 nuck nit

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:27 AM

Like I said before,a 12 year deal and the captaincy has been done so it would have been an interesting Gillis.org sales job.
The greatest Canucks d men of the last decade are playing golf in Tampa so no phone calls from Matthias or Sami.
A rookie looking into the eyes of Alain Vigneault with the thoughts of receiving generous ice time might would probably be disheartening in and of itself.
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#496 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:36 AM

Like I said before,a 12 year deal and the captaincy has been done so it would have been an interesting Gillis.org sales job.
The greatest Canucks d men of the last decade are playing golf in Tampa so no phone calls from Matthias or Sami.
A rookie looking into the eyes of Alain Vigneault with the thoughts of receiving generous ice time might would probably be disheartening in and of itself.

They weren't the greatest canucks d men of the last decade first off but I would really like to know what you think could have/should have been offered.

In a world where this is a mistake then their must have been a better way in your eyes right? 12 years and captaincy bs doesn't matter. Trashing AV doesn't answer the question. Either it was a mistake and there was a solution or it wasn't a mistake at all.
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#497 oldnews

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

Like I said before,a 12 year deal and the captaincy has been done so it would have been an interesting Gillis.org sales job.
The greatest Canucks d men of the last decade are playing golf in Tampa so no phone calls from Matthias or Sami.
A rookie looking into the eyes of Alain Vigneault with the thoughts of receiving generous ice time might would probably be disheartening in and of itself.


And the exact same is true of Mike Babcock. That's the thing about being a young player in a contending organization - rookies don't steer the ship. They earn their dues. Zetteburg and Datsyuk were 25 years old before they got top 6 minutes in Detroit. Hodgson should have taken a cue from Kesler, the Sedins, Burrows and all the other players who took 3 or 4 years to earn their roles. Instead we listen to endless nonsense criticisms of AV as if he should be depending upon youngsters to drive his contender. The NHL is a meritocracy not a patronage appointment.
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#498 nuck nit

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

And the exact same is true of Mike Babcock. That's the thing about being a young player in a contending organization - rookies don't steer the ship. They earn their dues. Zetteburg and Datsyuk were 25 years old before they got top 6 minutes in Detroit. Hodgson should have taken a cue from Kesler, the Sedins, Burrows and all the other players who took 3 or 4 years to earn their roles. Instead we listen to endless nonsense criticisms of AV as if he should be depending upon youngsters to drive his contender. The NHL is a meritocracy not a patronage appointment.

I have no idea what you are talking about and neither do you.
Schultz never said anything that you are implying and if you think Bobby Orr never steered the ship you are a lunatic.
The NHL is a bunch of people bent on dollars and winning and the brightest talent dictates everything to everyone.
They are the show.
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#499 oldnews

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:21 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about and neither do you.
Schultz never said anything that you are implying and if you think Bobby Orr never steered the ship you are a lunatic.
The NHL is a bunch of people bent on dollars and winning and the brightest talent dictates everything to everyone.
They are the show.


The ironing: Mr. Sensitive is now throwing around the word "lunatic."
I see you are confused about what I said - which by the way, had absolutely nothing to do with Schultz nor was he at all part of the discussion.
I think the point was fairly clear - Babcock is a coach - like AV is a coach. When you play for him, you earn your minutes, you don't simply show up as a rookie and expect to be spoon-fed top 6 minutes, particularly when you are playing for a contender that is deep in veteran talent.
I'm not the one speaking in tongues on a regular basis.
If you are comparing Hodgson to Bobby Orr you probably shouldn't be suggesting that anyone else is a lunatic.
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#500 Baggins

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:12 AM

I have no idea what you are talking about


Meritocracy: a system in which the talented are chosen and moved ahead on the basis of their achievement

Patronage: the distribution of jobs and favors on a political basis
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#501 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:33 AM

Equally, there's no reason to believe Gillis offered the best he could to Schultz. Rest assured, if Edler walks and these questions arise, Gillis will tell us all about how Schultz' heart was not here, how he was a demanding brat that didn't want to earn his playing time and is not the kind of character the Canucks look for.

Garrison is gonna be good though.


Yes there is, he's a 22 year old who is that good, why would we not offer the best contract we could? Which we did. The money and term was no different here than Edmonton offered he just choose them over us.

“I grew up in Canada and wanted to play in a Canadian city,"

The defenseman was also at least partially coaxed to Alberta by several individuals connected to the Oilers' glory years, including two of the NHL's all-time greats in Wayne Gretzky and Paul Coffey, according to the Edmonton Journal.

“I don’t think I said one word when they called. I was in shock,” said Schultz. “For them to even take the time to call me, that’s something I’ll never forget.”


There wanted to play in a Canadian city, he didn't say he wanted to play in Vancouver.

And unfortunately we can't get those players to call him on our behave, and we aren't that desperate and can actually attract Players with having to go to rediculous limits.

And if anything this is more proof that there is nothing else we could have done since Schultz himself says those guys calling and all the extra BS they did had no affect on his descision and it came down to him choosing them over us as a fit not cause 99 called.

I wonder if meeting AV evoked the same reaction...?

:bigblush:


Yeah no kidding, he should have been gone by the time we made our pitch, Schultz probably realized AV would give him no time after the way he treated Coho, Shiro, Kassian, exc.

Like I said before,a 12 year deal and the captaincy has been done so it would have been an interesting Gillis.org sales job.
The greatest Canucks d men of the last decade are playing golf in Tampa so no phone calls from Matthias or Sami.
A rookie looking into the eyes of Alain Vigneault with the thoughts of receiving generous ice time might would probably be disheartening in and of itself.


I'm not sure if you are suggesting that we should have done that stuff, but we can't give him a 12 year contract only an ELC, and he probably didn't want the captaincy, I honestly don't know what rookie would want the captaincy of a top NHL team with all the pressure and veterans like the Sedins, Kesler, Luongo, Bieksa, exc. I certainly wouldn't.

There is nothing more we could have done, our offer was the same as Edmonton offered he just choose them over us, the sooner you accept the simple reality of the situation the easier it will be for us all to move on.

I have no idea what you are talking about and neither do you.
Schultz never said anything that you are implying and if you think Bobby Orr never steered the ship you are a lunatic.
The NHL is a bunch of people bent on dollars and winning and the brightest talent dictates everything to everyone.
They are the show.


You can't compare Schultz, Hodgson or anyone to Bobby Orr you lunatic.

Orr is the greatest player to ever play, you can't compare anyone coming in as a rookie/young player in any situation to him.
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#502 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:35 AM

DP

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 02 January 2013 - 06:46 AM.

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#503 onesmallleap

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:43 AM

i guess in hindsight i should have picked different numbers for the 649.....
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#504 elvis15

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

They weren't the greatest canucks d men of the last decade first off but I would really like to know what you think could have/should have been offered.

In a world where this is a mistake then their must have been a better way in your eyes right? 12 years and captaincy bs doesn't matter. Trashing AV doesn't answer the question. Either it was a mistake and there was a solution or it wasn't a mistake at all.

He doesn't care to argue his side, so why bother trying to argue the other side? It's like replying to KotBS. I'll put my hat in one time only on this one though despite the likely futility of it.

Here is what Schultz was eligible to be offered:

Schultz is eligible for a two-year deal for the entry-level maximum salary. This includes a $925,000 base salary, including $92,500 signing bonus plus $2.85m in performance bonuses for a cap hit $3.775m, according to CapGeek.com

That article notes there were 5 teams on Schultz shortlist just a few days before signing (four of them Canadian) and each would have had to have offered at least the max salary an bonuses to even get to that point. Why else would Schultz still be considering them when he'd already ruled out 21 other teams?

The one thing that could be massaged from there with the contract itself is what criteria the $2.85M in performance bonuses would have. Was one team able to offer easier to obtain levels for the bonuses? That we don't know - and will never know - so the only fair argument is to say they were at least comparable between all the teams or again he would have likely ruled that team out of the running.

From there, the Schultz camp would have focused on the team (and teammates) he'd be playing with and what his role would be. It's no secret that Edmonton was offering a greater chance to play compared to Vancouver not being able to guarantee top 4 minutes. Considering that increased role/playing time, wouldn't those performance bonuses be easier for Schultz to attain in Edmonton? If so, that increased role is doubled, both in the experience he has on the ice, and possibly in his paycheck come year end.

Gillis may have tried to massage the bonuses to be slight more achievable than what Edmonton was offering - assuming he knew what they had offered. If Edmonton continued to one up him in that regard, then the ability for Schultz to achieve his full salary including bonuses would always be more likely in Edmonton with the guarantee of more ice time.

Edited by elvis15, 02 January 2013 - 11:28 AM.

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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#505 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

He doesn't care to argue his side, so why bother trying to argue the other side? It's like replying to KotBS. I'll put my hat in one time only on this one though despite the likely futility of it.



I ask because him not answering is an answer in itself. Sadly it's also the answer I expect but I always hope for the best because I'd much rather have a discussion than prove a point.
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#506 BenDrinkin

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

Yup, the sky is falling again! Listen, we got the Presidents trophy two years running and were just in the SCF. Maybe you need to up the dosage of your meds, to bring your anxiety down. Sit back and let Gillis do his job, he knows what he's doing.
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#507 TheFan66

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:28 AM

Shultz not signing here is not a mistake by Gillis. You cannot force someone to sign the deal. Gillis clearly made a strong pitch to Shultz or we would not have been in the running till the very end. Gillis also cannot gaurantee playing time to any player because that would undermine the coach. Plus how would you explain that to Bieksa/Hamhuis/Edler/ and the rest.
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#508 elvis15

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

I ask because him not answering is an answer in itself. Sadly it's also the answer I expect but I always hope for the best because I'd much rather have a discussion than prove a point.

I doubt he'll see it the same way you do (and I, and everyone else) since he's already refused to take reason and logic into account in what was likely offered by Gillis.
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Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#509 SamJamIam

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

I ask because him not answering is an answer in itself. Sadly it's also the answer I expect but I always hope for the best because I'd much rather have a discussion than prove a point.


I'm just gonna keep posting this picture until people stop replying to the trolls. The sooner you guys stop trying to argue with people who think any reply is a sign that their trolling is effective, the sooner they go away:

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#510 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:28 PM

I'm just gonna keep posting this picture until people stop replying to the trolls. The sooner you guys stop trying to argue with people who think any reply is a sign that their trolling is effective, the sooner they go away:

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That's terrific but again I'm hoping for a discussion. If it doesn't come from him that's fine.
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