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Canucks making critical mistakes in hindsight?


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#121 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

I think this is really just all a cover for your man-crush on Schultz. You should do your hair up real nice and ask him out.
Go back to playing with your GI Joes kid, you're embarrassing yourself here.


Do you believe that writing nonsense like this makes you credible?
This is embarrassment personified.
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#122 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

He didn't want to play here.

It is simply that simple, we did everything we truthfully could have, he just choose Edmonton over us.

Everyone should just get over it.


If that was the case he would have never attended the dog and pony show.
It is not that simple and you have no idea,in reality.
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#123 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:20 PM

He didn't want to play here.

It is simply that simple, we did everything we truthfully could have, he just choose Edmonton over us.

Everyone should just get over it.


Wrong. Why weren't the Sedin's involved? Or Linden? Or Bieksa? You do know what Edmonton did, right?

I honestly think that Schultz was so unimpressed by Gillis & Vigneault's pitch, that he ranked Ottawa ahead of us to just sort of rub salt in the wounds. Honestly.
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#124 eretz canucks

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

Edler, Garrison and Bieksa could probably all slay offensively at the AHL level, what a joke of a discussion this is, I'd rather have

Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Garrison over Schultz any day.
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#125 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:27 PM

Hmm, you don't think it had to do with the fact that Hodgson was another year older, had another year to develop, and trained hard in the summer? The fact that he put up similar PPG total the following season in the NHL doesn't mean the competition between the AHL and NHL is anywhere close to each other. I think the fact that he slotted onto a President's trophy winning team helped a little.


You don't mention his career was on hold for a full year.Why is that,De Niro?
Kassian never trained hard in the summer? Is that what you are saying,De Niro?
Slotted in ,huh? I don't think so.
The kid got rookie of the month honors playing 12 minutes a game behind a coach and team that misdiagnosed his injury and still berated him like a child.
This whole episode is so embarrassing and still the fan boys have no shame.
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#126 eretz canucks

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

agree nuck nit, it is so sad. We looked like a bunch of idiots after the way we treated Hodgson
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#127 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:41 PM

Age/development was a factor, sure, but I'm not sure that it was much of one. AHL season ends, NHL's training camp is really not that far behind. And let's not forget that Cody almost didn't make our team. He had a bad camp, and you could say that he didn't deserve a spot on the roster. As for the President's Trophy winning team, he was playing 11 minutes per game! Not exactly a glowing opportunity.


Cody had a bad camp? I don't think he had a bad camp, I thaught he actually looked fine in camp, and earned his role. Even if he wasn't stellar, the notion that we don't give young players chances before they have earned it is incorrect, I think AV has an issue with how he plays young players, but I think MG has an agenda that he tries to give young players chances in the NHL whenever the opportunity presents itself. The 2 examples that come to mind are when we called Cody up in 10/11 during the regular season when he wasn't needed, and also in the playoffs when he wasn't needed. Then the other is when MG admitted JS should have gotten a call-up, the opportunity just didn't present itself, and also we kept Kassian up for the remainder of the year last year when he wasn't given much opportunity and could have very well been sent down. So I don't think that notion is true, atleast in the sense of how the managment gives opportunities.

The point is that you're discounting what Schultz is doing, for really no other reason than hatred/bitterness towards him signing with a division rival. You're the guy who goes on and on about people "underestimating" our prospects, yet you're denying what Schultz is doing while putting blind faith in guys like:

  • Kevin Connauton - 2 goals, 8 points, and a -10 rating in 23 games. This is your future PP QB?
  • Anton Rodin - 1 goal in 18 games played? Coming in at a weight of approximately 137 pounds?
  • Alexandre Mallet - 0 points in 13 games played? This is your overage/ready-to-contribute 2nd round pick?
  • Yann Sauve - 1 point in 12 games played. Another 2nd round pick.
Even Kassian & Schroeder, both have been benched, and neither have asserted themselves as leaders for the team. 14 points in 23 games for Jordan Schroeder, who's 5'3"? Let me ask you - who are we "underestimating"?


Now before I gone defending our prospects, keep in mind the entire Wolves as a team are struggling.

1) Connaution is projected as a PP QB based on his offensive skillset, great skating ability, big slap shot, exc. The Wolves PP has struggled, you can't pin that entirely on him. And honestly for a struggling team, 10 Points in 23 Games for a defensemen isn't that bad.

2) So a player who is getting bottom 6 minutes, playing every other game so not getting consistent time to form chemistry, and even when he has that genius Arniel has broken up the line. He has been inconsistent, but he has also had some very good moments, when you consider the circumstances, it doesn't look as bad as it seems at face value.

3) Lol, this one is classic. A player who comes in and plays on the 4th line, plays very well (and anyone who watched early in the season will say he was actually quite impessive for a 4th liner) Then gets sent down to get put in more offensive situations. I don't know what point you are making here, he wasn't expected to make the NHL right away, unless you have some unrealistic expectation, so he is nothing to worry about right now.

4) No one expects him to be what he was projected to be, but if you had watched the wolves games you would see he has actually been quite stable and a pretty good in his defensive role, for some reason it seems like he is Arniel's favorite whipping boy even though he has been alot more reliable than Joslin. (For example)

5) First off JS is 5'9, not a good joke. 2nd, he has actually been one of the wolves best players, as has Kassian. Look at the entire roster, JS and Kassian are both top 3 in point I believe, the team has just struggled. When the team was playing well Jordan and Zack were playing really well, the team has tabled off and they still have been pretty good since that benching, even if (In Zack's case more so) The points don't entirely show that.
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#128 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Gillis' critical error (besides the Hodgson move) lay in not trading Cory Schneider last year for more help. Maybe we could've got Nash, maybe we could've got Jeff Carter, etc. And maybe whatever supplement that was could've pushed us over the top.

You don't have many opportunities as the PT winner, may as well go balls out, IMO. Big mistake.


Trading Schneider last season would have been a huge mistake, I'm glad we didn't.
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#129 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

Wrong. Why weren't the Sedin's involved? Or Linden? Or Bieksa? You do know what Edmonton did, right?

I honestly think that Schultz was so unimpressed by Gillis & Vigneault's pitch, that he ranked Ottawa ahead of us to just sort of rub salt in the wounds. Honestly.


Yeah and I think it was an embaressing act of desperation from a team that clearly desperate to get help in that area. And either way what I ment by that, was more refering to icetime, Edmonton could truthfully promise him a top 4 spot, we couldn't.

How do you know he ranked Ottawa ahead of us? And lets say for a minute that he did, I don't see that as rubbing salt in the wounds because like Edmonton the opportunity he would have got in Ottawa would have been better here.

I stand by what I said, there's nothing more we could have truthfully done (With integrity).
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#130 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

If that was the case he would have never attended the dog and pony show.
It is not that simple and you have no idea,in reality.


Okay then how is it not that simple? Was there a condition that he would sign with us over Edmonton over us if we could get Trevor Linden over to talk to him within 3 Hours or something? :lol:

You know how it is clear that he simply choose another team over us? he didn't sign here. Simple enough for you? (And for King)
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#131 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

Edler, Garrison and Bieksa could probably all slay offensively at the AHL level, what a joke of a discussion this is, I'd rather have

Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Garrison over Schultz any day.


Agreed,but Schultz could have been a big part of this team going forward.
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#132 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:12 PM

agree nuck nit, it is so sad. We looked like a bunch of idiots after the way we treated Hodgson


I am sure Schultz heard of the Hodgson fiasco.
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#133 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

Okay then how is it not that simple? Was there a condition that he would sign with us over Edmonton over us if we could get Trevor Linden over to talk to him within 3 Hours or something? :lol:

You know how it is clear that he simply choose another team over us? he didn't sign here. Simple enough for you? (And for King)


It is simple enough for you,simple you.
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#134 Gerg

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

Do you think any of those 4 guys would be getting 1.5 PPG in the AHL, today?

Don't be so sure that Schultz wouldn't be able to outplay those guys for increased ice time. Nobody expected Ehrhoff to do what he did here.


Do you think Schultz can play defense in the NHL today? I've seen him, he can't even play defense in the AHL.
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#135 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

It is simple enough for you,simple you.


Why don't you think it is that simple?
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#136 eretz canucks

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

schultz = AHL all star Marc Andre Gargnani
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#137 Riviera82

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

Gillis' critical error (besides the Hodgson move) lay in not trading Cory Schneider last year for more help. Maybe we could've got Nash, maybe we could've got Jeff Carter, etc. And maybe whatever supplement that was could've pushed us over the top.

You don't have many opportunities as the PT winner, may as well go balls out, IMO. Big mistake.


Sorry man, without Schneider and even with the supposed help we could get for him, I dont think this team finishes with any more than 100 points last year. No PT again.
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#138 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

Do you think Schultz can play defense in the NHL today? I've seen him, he can't even play defense in the AHL.


Oh, really?

On the flipside, he's got more points than any other player in the league, so I guess it's probably worth it to keep him on the ice, no?
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#139 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

The biggest mistake is one they are making right now. They're spending tons of money on scouting and player development and not getting any results.

The majority of our prospects are underachieving despite Gillis claiming that they are putting a ton of effort into player development. I'm not sure what Dave Gagne is doing exactly, but it's not making much of an impact so far.

They were mistaken in thinking that if they spent more that it would equal results. When the reality is, they need to have the right people in place. It's time for Gillis to make some bold moves and hire some different scouts. We all love our alumni players, but they're not getting results, other than Gradin of course.

It would help for the Aquilini's to buck up and buy a farm team as well. But that can take time.
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#140 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:07 PM

schultz = AHL all star Marc Andre Gargnani


Mike Gillis thought that Marc-Andre Gragnani was going to be an NHL star. What happened?
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#141 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

Yeah and I think it was an embaressing act of desperation from a team that clearly desperate to get help in that area. And either way what I ment by that, was more refering to icetime, Edmonton could truthfully promise him a top 4 spot, we couldn't.


Seriously, this is the worst excuse ever.

If he sucks, they won't play him. It's just that simple. The "promise" of ice-time is completely phony. I bet Keith Ballard was promised a lot of ice time when he was acquired, too, but he showed that he couldn't handle it.
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#142 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

Now before I gone defending our prospects, keep in mind the entire Wolves as a team are struggling.

1) Connaution is projected as a PP QB based on his offensive skillset, great skating ability, big slap shot, exc. The Wolves PP has struggled, you can't pin that entirely on him. And honestly for a struggling team, 10 Points in 23 Games for a defensemen isn't that bad.

2) So a player who is getting bottom 6 minutes, playing every other game so not getting consistent time to form chemistry, and even when he has that genius Arniel has broken up the line. He has been inconsistent, but he has also had some very good moments, when you consider the circumstances, it doesn't look as bad as it seems at face value.

3) Lol, this one is classic. A player who comes in and plays on the 4th line, plays very well (and anyone who watched early in the season will say he was actually quite impessive for a 4th liner) Then gets sent down to get put in more offensive situations. I don't know what point you are making here, he wasn't expected to make the NHL right away, unless you have some unrealistic expectation, so he is nothing to worry about right now.

4) No one expects him to be what he was projected to be, but if you had watched the wolves games you would see he has actually been quite stable and a pretty good in his defensive role, for some reason it seems like he is Arniel's favorite whipping boy even though he has been alot more reliable than Joslin. (For example)

5) First off JS is 5'9, not a good joke. 2nd, he has actually been one of the wolves best players, as has Kassian. Look at the entire roster, JS and Kassian are both top 3 in point I believe, the team has just struggled. When the team was playing well Jordan and Zack were playing really well, the team has tabled off and they still have been pretty good since that benching, even if (In Zack's case more so) The points don't entirely show that.


Connauton has 8 points and a -10 rating. Looks like you got the numbers scrambled.

"It doesn't look as bad as it seems at face value". Um, yes it does. Anton Rodin has 1 goal in 18 games played. The guy looks like a 15 year-old Lance Bass. If he's not scoring, he's not adding anything at all to the team. Stop making excuses.

On Mallet; you use a 2nd round pick to draft a 20 year-old, under the assumption that he can go straight to the AHL. Well, unless he can't hack it there. I honestly didn't know that he was sent down until you told me. That is pretty scary. A 2nd round pick in the NHL entry draft?!? Yikes.

Yep, always a whipping boy, whether it's Ballard on the Canucks, Sauve on the Wolves, whatever. You should open your mind a little bit and begin to consider the possibility that maybe the coach just doesn't have a lot of confidence in them. Meaning that maybe they're not that good.

On Schroeder - "the team has just struggled". You earlier mentioned that the AHL was basically garbage and that Bieksa/Edler would have no problem getting 1.5 PPG in a league of such low quality. So if this is the case, maybe our entire prospect base just simply isn't that good?
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#143 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

Why don't you think it is that simple?


He was courted by 26 NHL teams and put those NHL teams through an evaluation process.
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#144 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

Connauton has 8 points and a -10 rating. Looks like you got the numbers scrambled.

"It doesn't look as bad as it seems at face value". Um, yes it does. Anton Rodin has 1 goal in 18 games played. The guy looks like a 15 year-old Lance Bass. If he's not scoring, he's not adding anything at all to the team. Stop making excuses.

On Mallet; you use a 2nd round pick to draft a 20 year-old, under the assumption that he can go straight to the AHL. Well, unless he can't hack it there. I honestly didn't know that he was sent down until you told me. That is pretty scary. A 2nd round pick in the NHL entry draft?!? Yikes.

Yep, always a whipping boy, whether it's Ballard on the Canucks, Sauve on the Wolves, whatever. You should open your mind a little bit and begin to consider the possibility that maybe the coach just doesn't have a lot of confidence in them. Meaning that maybe they're not that good.

On Schroeder - "the team has just struggled". You earlier mentioned that the AHL was basically garbage and that Bieksa/Edler would have no problem getting 1.5 PPG in a league of such low quality. So if this is the case, maybe our entire prospect base just simply isn't that good?


The powerplay for the Wolves has been a mess since day 1. That's where Connauton typically gets his points. Don't get me wrong, Connauton isn't playing well, but the powerplay comes down to coaching for me. It hasn't mattered who Arniel has put on it, he can't get results. And these are PPG AHL players that he's struggling to get results from.

Rodin has disappointed me big time, there's nothing else much to say. He needed to put some muscle on to improve his game and he hasn't. I haven't written him off, but he's not the player I thought he would be back when I watched him play for Brynas. The kid needs to be locked in a gym and not let out until he puts on 15 pounds of muscle.

Mallet was a bad pick for the second round. There's no arguing that. How we didn't take Severson, a Canadian kid with good size that plays for the D-man factory Rockets. You just gotta give your head a shake on that one. He could have likely been had in the 3rd or 4th round.

Sauve is better than Joslin, I can assure you that. That decision has to be coming from higher up. The Wolves obviously don't wanna pay Joslin to sit.

NHL points translate to the AHL, but AHL points don't always translate to the NHL. It's alot harder to put up points in the NHL than the AHL. Don't kid yourself if you don't think that all of our prospects taking a step back at the same time isn't something to do with the team they're on.
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#145 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

He was courted by 26 NHL teams and put those NHL teams through an evaluation process.


Exactly and he choose Edmonton over all those teams including us, how is that a mistake on our part?
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#146 Gerg

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

Oh, really?

On the flipside, he's got more points than any other player in the league, so I guess it's probably worth it to keep him on the ice, no?


It really worked for Andy Delmore



I'm not comparing teh two, just playing devil's advocate here...
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#147 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

Seriously, this is the worst excuse ever.

If he sucks, they won't play him. It's just that simple. The "promise" of ice-time is completely phony. I bet Keith Ballard was promised a lot of ice time when he was acquired, too, but he showed that he couldn't handle it.


How is that an excuse? They sent Wayne fricking Gretzky to talk to a 22 Year old Free Agent who they really wanted, does that not seem like an act of desperation to you? It does to me, and it's kind of embaressing that it has to come to that for players to sign in Edmonton.

And you don't think they promised him top 4 minutes? They can guarentee top 4 minutes, look at there defense. Now look at ours. It's obvious we can't guarentee top 4 minutes, we can't even guarentee him a full time spot let alone top 4 minutes.

And Keith Ballard was never promised anything, from our team standpoint. You have to earn your icetime and obviously that hasn't always been the case (Raymond) but our team has been alright at following that statement.
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#148 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

Connauton would not only be getting points but raising the game of all those around him if he was talented enough.

The Canucks are big on Ontario and Quebec kids,which is where management is from,raised and played.

However,their ignorance towards proper evaluation and drafting of Western Canadian kids is annoying and hurts the team.

Besides not having one, talented former NHL PP d man in upper management they are all eastern Canadians.
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#149 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:08 PM

Connauton has 8 points and a -10 rating. Looks like you got the numbers scrambled.


Edit: NVM, 2 point difference. I was wrong. Big whoop.

Connaution has actually been quite disapointing of late. He started strong, but recently that genius Arniely took him away from Tanev and put him with the great Derek Joslin (Who has been an absolute train wreck btw) And his 5 on 5 play hasn't been good, the PP as a whole has struggled, so you can't pin that on him (Im in DeNiro's boat, I think Arniel should go). he was fine earlier on in the year lets hope he can get back to that.

"It doesn't look as bad as it seems at face value". Um, yes it does. Anton Rodin has 1 goal in 18 games played. The guy looks like a 15 year-old Lance Bass. If he's not scoring, he's not adding anything at all to the team. Stop making excuses.


I love how you conviently forget to mention he has picked up 7 assists aswell. Which brings him to 8 Points in 18 Games. Which again when you consider the circumstance (Him playing every 2nd game, and playing in the bottom 6 when he does play) is actually not that bad. He hasn't been lighting the world on fire but he has actually had some good moments, and he weights 180 by the way. not 165 or whatever you said before.

On Mallet; you use a 2nd round pick to draft a 20 year-old, under the assumption that he can go straight to the AHL. Well, unless he can't hack it there. I honestly didn't know that he was sent down until you told me. That is pretty scary. A 2nd round pick in the NHL entry draft?!? Yikes.


This just shows you don't pay even attention to our prospects to make an accurate assumption on them, which is reflective of your completely stat driven posts.

You know where most of the other 2nd round picks are? In Junior. Mallet is an unfortunate victim of the lockout, if the NHL was playing he would probably be in a 3rd line spot on the Wolves, unfortunatly he was on the 4th line and only playing every 2nd game. But when he did play he actually played very well, he was very physical, a solid force on the forecheck and added some good fights too.

Him being sent down wasn't a matter of his play because he was actually playing quite well I thought, it is just so he can get into a more offensive role and develop that side of his game aswell.

Your expecting to much out of him too soon anyways.

Yep, always a whipping boy, whether it's Ballard on the Canucks, Sauve on the Wolves, whatever. You should open your mind a little bit and begin to consider the possibility that maybe the coach just doesn't have a lot of confidence in them. Meaning that maybe they're not that good.

On Schroeder - "the team has just struggled". You earlier mentioned that the AHL was basically garbage and that Bieksa/Edler would have no problem getting 1.5 PPG in a league of such low quality. So if this is the case, maybe our entire prospect base just simply isn't that good?


Actually I never mentioned that, I think you are getting me confused with someone else.

As for Sauve and Schroeder, as I said you should pay more attention to the games, maybe even watch a few. If you did you would see Sauve actually has been fine, go read the PGT's, go read the PGT from the game JS, ZK and Sauve exc. were scratched, you will see people calling Arniel a bonehead for Scratching his 2 most consistent players at the time (JS and ZK) because of Connautions terrible give away, and also wondering why Sauve was scratched because he was actually quite solid.

Now for Sauve, he +2 playing a defensive role. And you don't think he is playing well. This just goes to show he actually has been fine and you just don't know what your talking about.

As for Schroeder and Kassian both are 2nd (JS) and 3rd (ZK) respectively in scoring on the team. So if they are that high on the team, explain how it's just them and not the team that is struggling. If the team wasn't struggling, and they just werent playing well wouldn't there be more players ahead of them?

This just shows they have been some of the more consistent players (JS especially, atleast recently) and are playing alot better than you give them credit for.

Go read PGT's and see, Schroeder continues to pick up points and people are talking greatly of Kassian's improving defensive game, the way he sets up plays, and his physicality.

Just go watch the games, or atleast read the PGT's so that you can actually keep track of what is going on before you make false assumptions.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 19 December 2012 - 08:13 PM.

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#150 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:09 PM

Connauton would not only be getting points but raising the game of all those around him if he was talented enough.


Any player could raise the level of other players, doesn't mean he's not talented.

If you watch the wolves, then you would know he's already having to cover for his weaker defensive partner in Joslin. That's another thing taking away from his offensive game. He's not able to pinch or carry the puck cause every time it goes back the other way they get scored on.

Joslin put up 30+ points a couple seasons ago. He shouldn't need to be propped up by a 22 year old prospect. That has been a horrible signing so far. If Mullen hadn't gotten injured, things likely would be going much better right now.

Edited by DeNiro, 19 December 2012 - 08:11 PM.

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