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Canucks making critical mistakes in hindsight?


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#151 Gerg

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:10 PM

How is that an excuse? They sent Wayne fricking Gretzky to talk to a 22 Year old Free Agent who they really wanted, does that not seem like an act of desperation to you? It does to me, and it's kind of embaressing that it has to come to that for players to sign in Edmonton.


In his defense, that isn't an uncommon recruiting method. Especially around free agency time, you can see top players for a team recruiting a particular guy on behalf of the GM. Can't think of any off hand, but I have heard of it.
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#152 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

In his defense, that isn't an uncommon recruiting method. Especially around free agency time, you can see top players for a team recruiting a particular guy on behalf of the GM. Can't think of any off hand, but I have heard of it.


Maybe if there is a former star working in the organization.

For instance if Colorado was trying to sign someone and they got Joe Sakic to talk to him about the organization, I don't think that is bad cause he is working for them.

But C'mon to get the greatest player ever, who is just on his own enjoying his life to do that as a favor is a bit much to get a player no?
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#153 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

Go read PGT's and see, Schroeder continues to pick up points and people are talking greatly of Kassian's improving defensive game, the way he sets up plays, and his physicality.

Just go watch the games, or atleast read the PGT's so that you can actually keep track of what is going on before you make false assumptions.


That's why I prefer to talk about prospects in the prospect forum. You know that people actually watch the games there, or at least follow along in the post game talks.

The people that only follow our prospects through the stats are pretty obvious to spot. Basically if a prospect isn't putting up close to a point a game = "They suck, what a bust. What was MG thinking?" If any prospect is putting up a point a game or close to it, it's "This guys gonna be a star. Where do you think they'll slot in next season?"

There's so much more to prospect development than points. For the people actually watching our prospects, you can see steady improvement in some players, even if they're not lighting the lamp. That's the only reason you could explain a guy like Hodgson going from an average 0.6 PPG in the AHL to all of a sudden being 4th in scoring on a top scoring team.
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#154 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:21 PM

How is that an excuse? They sent Wayne fricking Gretzky to talk to a 22 Year old Free Agent who they really wanted, does that not seem like an act of desperation to you? It does to me, and it's kind of embaressing that it has to come to that for players to sign in Edmonton.


Not "desperation" at all. It's called intelligently-applied effort. They put in the work to ensure that they had shifted the odds in their favour as much possible, which Vancouver did not. Vancouver clearly assumed that, like Dan Hamhuis, they'd be given a gift and that Schultz would just want to play in his home town above all, growing up a Canuck fan. Whoops.

Knocking the Oilers for bringing in Gretzky really shows a level of immaturity on your part. An excellent strategy that in the end was successful.
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#155 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

Any player could raise the level of other players, doesn't mean he's not talented.


I have no idea what you are saying.
Great players make less talented players look good or better.
Connauton is not qualified as even an above average AHL d man.
He has a lot of work to do if he is ever to raise the game of those around him because he is clearly struggling to hold his own and is one of the Canucks most touted prospects,which is very indicative of our scouting and development.
Again,we go back to successfully landing a very talented d man that indicated he wanted to play in Vancouver.
Connauton will be lucky to make it to the NHL ,the way he is progressing.
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#156 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

Not "desperation" at all. It's called intelligently-applied effort. They put in the work to ensure that they had shifted the odds in their favour as much possible, which Vancouver did not. Vancouver clearly assumed that, like Dan Hamhuis, they'd be given a gift and that Schultz would just want to play in his home town above all, growing up a Canuck fan. Whoops.

Knocking the Oilers for bringing in Gretzky really shows a level of immaturity on your part. An excellent strategy that in the end was successful.


Well who would you rather have? A local guy like Garrison who scored 16 goals last season, and who's dream it was to play for Canucks since he was a kid. Who even came out publicly and said that he wants to play for the Canucks.

Or some kid who's from here, hadn't proven anything at the pro level, and needed to be promised the moon to sign here?

You can't have both. Schultz's cap hit is too big. I know whoI'd choose.
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#157 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

That's why I prefer to talk about prospects in the prospect forum. You know that people actually watch the games there, or at least follow along in the post game talks.

The people that only follow our prospects through the stats are pretty obvious to spot. Basically if a prospect isn't putting up close to a point a game = "They suck, what a bust. What was MG thinking?" If any prospect is putting up a point a game or close to it, it's "This guys gonna be a star. Where do you think they'll slot in next season?"

There's so much more to prospect development than points. For the people actually watching our prospects, you can see steady improvement in some players, even if they're not lighting the lamp. That's the only reason you could explain a guy like Hodgson going from an average 0.6 PPG in the AHL to all of a sudden being 4th in scoring on a top scoring team.


Yeah exactly, I really like the way Kass has been playing as of late, he could be better obviously, everyone could, but he is improving and that's what is important.
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#158 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

There's so much more to prospect development than points. For the people actually watching our prospects, you can see steady improvement in some players, even if they're not lighting the lamp. That's the only reason you could explain a guy like Hodgson going from an average 0.6 PPG in the AHL to all of a sudden being 4th in scoring on a top scoring team.


DeNiro,Hodgson was always that talented.The Canucks misdiagnosed his injury and that helped tp set him back a year in his development at a crucial time.
Were you actually asleep for a few years? You are like egg nogged out of it.

Edited by nuck nit, 19 December 2012 - 08:30 PM.

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#159 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

I have no idea what you are saying.
Great players make less talented players look good or better.
Connauton is not qualified as even an above average AHL d man.

A d-man can only do so much to help the forwards score. If they're not burying it, which not alot of them are lately, it's not gonna matter how talented he is.

Yea, I guess that's why he was selected to the all-star game. They only send average players there...

Of course he needs some work. So does every prospect, otherwise they would be in the NHL already.
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#160 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:32 PM

Well who would you rather have? A local guy like Garrison who scored 16 goals last season, and who's dream it was to play for Canucks since he was a kid. Who even came out publicly and said that he wants to play for the Canucks.
Or some kid who's from here, hadn't proven anything at the pro level, and needed to be promised the moon to sign here?


Quantity will never replace quality.
Garrison has hardly shown much and yet Gillis threw the contract and the bucks at him.
The problem with attracting a budding possible superstar here was no promise and the presenters presentation sucked,obviously.
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#161 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

A d-man can only do so much to help the forwards score. If they're not burying it, which not alot of them are lately, it's not gonna matter how talented he is.

Yea, I guess that's why he was selected to the all-star game. They only send average players there...

Of course he needs some work. So does every prospect, otherwise they would be in the NHL already.


That's nonsense.He is not talented enough to carry the team so you have a fifth at the NHL level filling in on the second PP unit,if he gets lucky enough in five years to put his act together.
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#162 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

DeNiro,Hodgson was always that talented.The Canucks misdiagnosed his injury and that helped tp set him back a year in his development at a crucial time.
Were you actually asleep for a few years? You are like egg nogged out of it.


No actually I might have been following better than you, cause you got your facts wrong.

Hodgson was misdiagnosed by the Canucks, but he still felt pain, so he and his agent went to get a second opinion at one of the top back specialists in the states. Guess what? They came up with the same diagnosis.

It was only when the Canucks checked him out for a second time that they found the real problem.

I watched him play in the AHL, and the injury wasn't the reason he only put up 0.6 PPG. He was fine by that point.
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#163 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

Not "desperation" at all. It's called intelligently-applied effort. They put in the work to ensure that they had shifted the odds in their favour as much possible, which Vancouver did not. Vancouver clearly assumed that, like Dan Hamhuis, they'd be given a gift and that Schultz would just want to play in his home town above all, growing up a Canuck fan. Whoops.

Knocking the Oilers for bringing in Gretzky really shows a level of immaturity on your part. An excellent strategy that in the end was successful.


This is pretty much my response:

Well who would you rather have? A local guy like Garrison who scored 16 goals last season, and who's dream it was to play for Canucks since he was a kid. Who even came out publicly and said that he wants to play for the Canucks.

Or some kid who's from here, hadn't proven anything at the pro level, and needed to be promised the moon to sign here?

You can't have both. Schultz's cap hit is too big. I know whoI'd choose.


I will add a few things however.

So promising the moon (Which in this case is a guarenteed top 4 spot without having to earn it) Is intelligence... Interesting logic there.

And why does everyone get the impression that just because someone is from here that they loved this team growing up and would want to play here, it's clear with some poeple we have and have had in the past that it's the case (Ronning, Tambellini, Garrison, Hamhuis, exc.)

But how do you know that is the case with Schultz? I don't remember an article or him every saying that he was a huge fan growing up, and if he was please bring it up. Being born in the province doesn't guarentee he will choose your team when there are better career opportunites avaliable.

So tell anyways how is that our mistake that we couldn't get him? If he didn't want to sign here? What more could we have don't besides promised the moon which wouldn't have happened anyways?

And my last bit on the Gretzky thing. I think it is a little excessive to bring the greatest player in the game's history out to talk to the kid, who has no current affiliation with the club, just because you want him.

That's my opinion, you don't have to agree. But that's going a little over board in my opinion. I understand they want him bad but is going that far to convince him really that necessary? It reminds me of the length's Collage Football programs go to try to recruit players. And I don't think we need that same kind of propaganda in our free agency system.
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#164 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

Well who would you rather have? A local guy like Garrison who scored 16 goals last season, and who's dream it was to play for Canucks since he was a kid. Who even came out publicly and said that he wants to play for the Canucks.

Or some kid who's from here, hadn't proven anything at the pro level, and needed to be promised the moon to sign here?

You can't have both. Schultz's cap hit is too big. I know whoI'd choose.


Schultz's cap hit is lower than Garrison's. And he's not signed for 6 years.

I'll take Schultz in a New York minute, thank you very much. I'm of the opinion (and have been since it happened) that the Garrison signing was dumb, and that it'll turn out to be a mistake. This is a guy who has "one-year wonder" potential written all over him. I would far, far, far rather have Justin Schultz.
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#165 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

DeNiro,Hodgson was always that talented.The Canucks misdiagnosed his injury and that helped tp set him back a year in his development at a crucial time.
Were you actually asleep for a few years? You are like egg nogged out of it.


His point is just because someone doesn't light up the AHL is no reason to call him a bust, like King does with Kassian and Schroeder. The AHL is designed to get adjusted to the NA game and to work on your weakness's before you get a chance to play to your strengths in the NHL.

Oh and if that's the case with Coho then why is everyone giving Schroeder such a hard time? Jordan Schroeder has always been that talented too?
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#166 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

Quantity will never replace quality.
Garrison has hardly shown much and yet Gillis threw the contract and the bucks at him.
The problem with attracting a budding possible superstar here was no promise and the presenters presentation sucked,obviously.


Garrison has hardly shown much? :lol:

Yet you wanna give 3.75 mil to Schultz? Oh cause I forgot he had proven so much in college at that time...

Garrison was offered over 5 mil on free agency and he took less to sign with the Canucks. They made the right choice. The guy wanted to play here, Schultz clearly didn't. get over it already.
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#167 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

Schultz's cap hit is lower than Garrison's. And he's not signed for 6 years.

I'll take Schultz in a New York minute, thank you very much. I'm of the opinion (and have been since it happened) that the Garrison signing was dumb, and that it'll turn out to be a mistake. This is a guy who has "one-year wonder" potential written all over him. I would far, far, far rather have Justin Schultz.


Take an unproven player, who is really only 1 dimensional, and hasn't improved his defense that much since joining the Baron's, over a proven NHL calibre d-man, who is reliable at both ends.

Makes sense....
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#168 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

Schultz's cap hit is lower than Garrison's. And he's not signed for 6 years.

I'll take Schultz in a New York minute, thank you very much. I'm of the opinion (and have been since it happened) that the Garrison signing was dumb, and that it'll turn out to be a mistake. This is a guy who has "one-year wonder" potential written all over him. I would far, far, far rather have Justin Schultz.


Yea, and Garrison has proven that he's a solid NHLer. Schultz hadn't proven anything yet.

Well I would say Schultz has one-year wonder written all over him too.

What makes you so certain that this kid is gonna be a star? All you see is points, and assume that determines everything for making the NHL.
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#169 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

Garrison has hardly shown much? :lol:

Yet you wanna give 3.75 mil to Schultz? Oh cause I forgot he had proven so much in college at that time...

Garrison was offered over 5 mil on free agency and he took less to sign with the Canucks. They made the right choice. The guy wanted to play here, Schultz clearly didn't. get over it already.


:lol: :picard:

I know I can't believe they are even debating that:

A- Schultz not signing here was "A Mistake"
B- Garrison wasn't a better signing for us

Garrison is the better option for our group, and is obivously has more character & is more committed aside from the on-ice play. So happy we got Garrison.
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#170 DeNiro

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:45 PM

Take an unproven player, who is really only 1 dimensional, and hasn't improved his defense that much since joining the Baron's, over a proven NHL calibre d-man, who is reliable at both ends.

Makes sense....


Apparently it makes sense in their world.

I'd rather not take a gamble that big on a guy that hasn't even played a game in the NHL.
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#171 JimLahey

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:45 PM

Schultz's cap hit is lower than Garrison's. And he's not signed for 6 years.

I'll take Schultz in a New York minute, thank you very much. I'm of the opinion (and have been since it happened) that the Garrison signing was dumb, and that it'll turn out to be a mistake. This is a guy who has "one-year wonder" potential written all over him. I would far, far, far rather have Justin Schultz.


In my opinion, it is far too early to tell who is more beneficial to their respective team. For all we know, Garrison could be money well spent in terms of his contract and Schultz could be unable to adapt to the NHL game. We won't know until the lockout is over..
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#172 TheEhrhoffEffect

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

Schultz is just a product of the Edmonton over-hype CDCers seem to love. RNH, Eberle and Schultz are playing in the AHL and the Barons are 4th in their division and 7th in the conference (3 points ahead of the Wolves with 2 more GP). All those guys can put up points, but if that's all there was to success, they'd be destroying the AHL. A quick look at Schultz' stats show that he's raking in assists thanks to Eberle who just pulled in a 4 goal game. He's just getting his numbers bolstered, hereby referred to as "getting Hodgsoned".


Wait... what? :lol:
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#173 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

Yea, and Garrison has proven that he's a solid NHLer. Schultz hadn't proven anything yet.

Well I would say Schultz has one-year wonder written all over him too.

What makes you so certain that this kid is gonna be a star? All you see is points, and assume that determines everything for making the NHL.


Has he really proven that? He's basically played 2 NHL seasons, and was totally irrelevant and unknown until 2011 when he got off to a great start (didn't do much after January, as I recall).

Justin Schultz looks like he's going to be a star. Think of the stones it takes to just say "no thanks" to Anaheim, wait until you're free, and then go pick and choose where you want to play. Think of the pressure/scrutiny that he's now under as an Edmonton Oiler. And all he does is go out and lead the AHL in scoring! Guy looks like he has the makeup of a real star. Time will tell, but more confirmation was offered when TSN ranked him the #1 prospect. #1. Ahead of Yakupov, ahead of Rielly, etc.
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#174 King of the ES

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

Apparently it makes sense in their world.

I'd rather not take a gamble that big on a guy that hasn't even played a game in the NHL.


"A gamble that big" - an entry-level contract?

And you don't see the risk inherent in giving a 6-year, $4.6M per deal to an undrafted 28 year-old who's played about 180 NHL games?
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#175 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

Apparently it makes sense in their world.

I'd rather not take a gamble that big on a guy that hasn't even played a game in the NHL.


Exactly, he looks very promising, but the NHL is an entirely different thing. I feel much more confident in a guy like Garrison who is far more reliable for an extra 1.6 (Cap hit) than a guy who is unproven and has some flaws in his game which can counter balance the big upside his game brings aswell.
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#176 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

Has he really proven that? He's basically played 2 NHL seasons, and was totally irrelevant and unknown until 2011 when he got off to a great start (didn't do much after January, as I recall).

Justin Schultz looks like he's going to be a star. Think of the stones it takes to just say "no thanks" to Anaheim, wait until you're free, and then go pick and choose where you want to play. Think of the pressure/scrutiny that he's now under as an Edmonton Oiler. And all he does is go out and lead the AHL in scoring! Guy looks like he has the makeup of a real star. Time will tell, but more confirmation was offered when TSN ranked him the #1 prospect. #1. Ahead of Yakupov, ahead of Rielly, etc.


You call it stones, but you could also call it selfishness.

Okay so he is leading the AHL in scoring, great. What about his defesive game? When he gets to the NHL and is average offensively, or slightly above average offensively at best in his first year. How good will his defensive game be? Will he be reliable?

The words you use are: Looks like. And as you can surely attest with all the times you have bashed our prospects and our scouting/development, there are alot of looks likes that don't turn out.

Sure Schultz looks like he will be great offensively, but that is one component. Just being great offensively alone doesn't make you a star, other wise far more teams would have been interested in Alex Semin and Nikolay Zherdev would be making 7 Million in the NHL just like Semin.

And to even think that he is more proven than Garrison is just refusing the fact of the matter.

Edit: And that TSN list is pure garbage. Everyone knows it, Ritchie over Granlund? Ya right.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 19 December 2012 - 08:58 PM.

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#177 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:59 PM

"A gamble that big" - an entry-level contract?

And you don't see the risk inherent in giving a 6-year, $4.6M per deal to an undrafted 28 year-old who's played about 180 NHL games?


By big gamble he means cap hit (3.6) for a guy who has never played an NHL game.
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#178 nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:02 PM

No actually I might have been following better than you, cause you got your facts wrong.
Hodgson was misdiagnosed by the Canucks, but he still felt pain, so he and his agent went to get a second opinion at one of the top back specialists in the states. Guess what? They came up with the same diagnosis.
It was only when the Canucks checked him out for a second time that they found the real problem.
I watched him play in the AHL, and the injury wasn't the reason he only put up 0.6 PPG. He was fine by that point.


Again,I have no idea what you are attempting to articulate.
Hodgson was misdiagnosed by this NHL club that he was under contract to.
A full year later the Canucks finally made a proper diagnosis.
He was set back a full year at a critical point of his development and career by his own NHL club performed this act,amongst others.
Hodgson is now a PPG AHL player.
Just what are you trying to say,De Niro, that is not available on the public record for nearly four years?
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#179 nuck nit

nuck nit

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

Garrison has hardly shown much? :lol:

Yet you wanna give 3.75 mil to Schultz? Oh cause I forgot he had proven so much in college at that time...
Garrison was offered over 5 mil on free agency and he took less to sign with the Canucks. They made the right choice. The guy wanted to play here, Schultz clearly didn't. get over it already.


Lighten up.
No,I don't want to give 3.75 million to Schultz.
Who cares what Garrison was offered? It means nothing to me.
Your opinion of whether they made the right choice or not also means nothing.
Get over your inflated ego.
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#180 SamJamIam

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:09 PM

I think this thread can best be described by "nuck nit and King of the ES make absurd claims about a sport they know nothing about and a whole bunch of people make the mistake of thinking that their ignorance will come to a sudden halt when faced with facts." Myself included.

Protip: the perpetually ignorant among us are not ignorant because they don't understand the topic but because they refuse to understand it. Save yourselves from this black hole of a discussion.

Edited by nateb123, 19 December 2012 - 09:11 PM.

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