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NRA calls for an armed police officer at every US school


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#121 Electro Rock

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

I wonder if Obama can pull it off before the Fast and Furious fallout becames appearant?
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#122 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

I dunno about you but I'm having a discussion. I'll let Charlie Sheen do all the "winning".


Heh, put simply, it's unorthodox for an amendment to take away a right.. and while I can't see the high courts ever striking down the second amendment (if that's even possible), if Obama can replace Kennedy, Scalia, or Thomas (Roberts and Alito aren't going anywhere any time soon), any one of those three, I see it likely that major gun restrictions including specific weapon type bans will be allowed undoing the Heller case.


This is exactly what my thoughts are on this...far more instances of amendments added to grant a certain right than to take one away...and you're right also about that 38-39 states...it won't happen, especially with it being the Second up for debate.
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#123 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

I wonder if Obama can pull it off before the Fast and Furious fallout becames appearant?

Look at how well Bush swept the warrantless wiretap issue under the rug.. along with skirting impeachment.

He also had Congress there to grant him retroactive immunity.

No doubt Obama will come out just fine.

Thugs protecting each other.

Edited by zaibatsu, 21 December 2012 - 05:43 PM.

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#124 inane

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

The incidence of police killing someone illegally also happens.

In this case, it was a military officer.

Looks like you might have personally justified no police either.


Undoing prohibition..

The amount of states that might actually vote yay to toss the second amendment.. less than 10 very likely. Of the 50 states, they need what, 38'ish states to amend the constitution.. along with a supermajority of both Congressional chambers.

Yeah, not gonna happen.


Toss it out and amending it are different things. It's not all or nothing, or at least it doesn't have to be.
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#125 NightHawkSniper

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

Raise taxes on guns and bullets, and see if they still think it's a good idea.


Then you'd have another black market item...
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#126 woofwoofmoomoo

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

Before even equipping teachers with guns I'd simply suggest increasing awareness of who is on campus, doing very little at all since school shootings, while highly televised and intensely covered, are still not common enough to justify paranoia.


I agree. I don't think the NRA's paranoia should be listened to. What's needed is sane gun control, like other countries have.
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#127 Tearloch7

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

Statistics thrown around to day:

USA ,, home to 5% of the worlds population has 50% of the worlds guns

USA .. home to 130,000 schools plus 6,000 Universities .. 136,000 schools with an average annual "security cost" of say $80,000 per year .. total cost of +/- $11 billion .. sounds like it should be funded directly by the top 2%??

NRA annual budget is +/- $200 million .. will they buy the guns for the program?
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#128 Monteeun

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

Well, to think about it logically, bank robbers don't go to banks to shoot people, they go to rob them. If a bank robber does his job right, he makes off with the money without ever having to pull the trigger. If the guard does his, he prevents the robber from getting the money or getting away, hopefully without shots fired as well. Not a shot needs to be fired for either side to be successful at their 'job' in either case.

By contrast, putting armed guards in schools is not meant to prevent people robbing them, but rather prevent people from killing the teachers, students, etc. In any of these events, no person goes into the school to not fire upon people, and the result is often either the shooter killing themselves or being shot by police. A school shooting situation isn't likely to end up with the guard disarmed and no shots fired from then on, but rather the guard would be shot and then the shooter going on as if there wasn't a guard to begin with. The guard would also be much less likely to just put down his/her weapon in hopes of a non-violent end knowing the shooter's plan is to kill people, particularly children.

Continuing that, the amount of people who would have to be hired (likely with low pay compared to and armed bank guard since there's no money for education, let alone guards) probably wouldn't suggest a high quality of person prepared to cover a building with multiple entrances, plenty of spots in which to hide and a huge square footage. The possibility of the quality of shots fired likely decreases, and the possibility of unnecessary shootings increases due to quality of training, type of situations, people that are being protected, etc.

Consider it more of a situation like a convenience store robbery. A number of stores have weapons behind the counter, and even if they don't shootings still happen as the robbery becomes confused and the robber or worker becomes stressed.


The concerning issue is that, a gunmen would go to a school to pull a trigger and wouldn't care too much about who he/she shoots while the armed guard has to find the line of sight. It does make the situation very dangerous. The point i'm trying to make is that the people from the other side would say guns can be used for self defence and we should arm good people with guns. But its never that simplistic.

The one example i can think of is the shooting of the democratic senator(Arizona i believe). Apparently there were a couple of people in the crowd with handguns but couldn't fire back because of the chaos that followed.
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#129 Monteeun

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

Statistics thrown around to day:

USA ,, home to 5% of the worlds population has 50% of the worlds guns

USA .. home to 130,000 schools plus 6,000 Universities .. 136,000 schools with an average annual "security cost" of say $80,000 per year .. total cost of +/- $11 billion .. sounds like it should be funded directly by the top 2%??

NRA annual budget is +/- $200 million .. will they buy the guns for the program?


Its not even just about the numbers. One armed guard for every school does nothing to stop gunmens or gunwomens.
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Benning will be fired next year. Hope he enjoys screwing around for a few months. I just cant believe this. Another injured BC player. We just got rid of garrison. Seems like the canucks and linden just wanted any BC born player. Doesn't matter if hes good or not. We don't need another Linden to get us to game 7 of the Stanley cup and lose. We need someone to win us a cup.

 

5 million a year for Vrbata? 6 million for Miller? Kesler for Bonino and 24th instead of 10th pick or one of their top prospects? Garrison for scraps?

ive already lost faith in JB. Ive never EVER had this bad of a feeling about management.

 


#130 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

The concerning issue is that, a gunmen would go to a school to pull a trigger and wouldn't care too much about who he/she shoots while the armed guard has to find the line of sight. It does make the situation very dangerous. The point i'm trying to make is that the people from the other side would say guns can be used for self defence and we should arm good people with guns. But its never that simplistic.

The one example i can think of is the shooting of the democratic senator(Arizona i believe). Apparently there were a couple of people in the crowd with handguns but couldn't fire back because of the chaos that followed.

But I thought with that many people having guns it would just be a reckless Wild West shootout with no concern for friendly fire. :(
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#131 мцт вяздк чф

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:37 PM

what a surprise, NRA blamed videogames.

Edited by мцт вяздк чф, 21 December 2012 - 09:44 PM.

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#132 Squirrels.Gone.Wild

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

So, instead of getting rid of the real problem (ie. guns), the gun people are suggesting putting a trained guy with a gun in front of each school? The people would rather pay to have a guard like this than to just do away with guns altogether?


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It's not just the looney gun people. Barbara Boxer wants the National Guard to help protect schools.

http://www.latimes.c...0,7530900.story




WASHINGTON — Federal funds would be made available to deploy National Guard troops at schools under legislation introduced Wednesday by Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) in response to last week’s mass slaying at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.

The Save Our Schools Act would leave it to governors to decide whether to call out the National Guard and how to use troops around schools.

"Is it not part of the national defense to make sure that your children are safe?" Boxer said at Capitol Hill press conference.

Boxer also introduced the School Safety Enhancement Act, which would increase funding for a federal grants program, from $30 million to $50 million, to help fund school security measures, such as installation of metal detectors and surveillance cameras.

The bills are among the first of what is expected to be a wave of legislative proposals intended to curb gun violence, including tougher gun control and new measures aimed at keeping firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill.

"The slaughter of the innocents must stop," she said. "We must keep our schools safe by utilizing all of the law enforcement tools at our disposal."

Boxer said the National Guard legislation is modeled after a program in place since 1989 that allows governors to use the National Guard to aid law enforcement in anti-drug operations. Troops could be deployed at schools, or assigned to desk jobs at police stations to free up local law enforcement to patrol schools.

Citing 258 shooting deaths at U.S. schools since 1999, Boxer said, "Whoever says this is not the right time, I say this, 'When is the right time?'"


Edited by Squirrels.Gone.Wild, 21 December 2012 - 10:04 PM.

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#133 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

An armed guard wouldn't work for the NRA, and chances are this guard would go through a lot more scrutiny in training and backgrounds than the NRA would want. I don't see how armed guards at a school are a victory for the NRA. Given their citation on their Twitter of Israeli teachers equipping guns, it seems they would (like me) prefer teachers be armed. The guard thing obviously was a compromise for them ( :lol:) because the concept of additional law enforcement over personal accountability is more against their line of thinking.


I dont remember saying the NRA would be willing to train anybody.

One of their main objectives is to put guns in places where they were previously uneccessary. Thats all I was hinting at.

Edited by Red Light Racicot, 21 December 2012 - 10:13 PM.

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#134 DeNiro

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:20 PM

Another shooting today in Pennsylvania. 4 dead, 3 injured.
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#135 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

Then you'd have another black market item...

Better that than available legally, easily and cheaply at the local Wal-Mart.

what a surprise, NRA blamed videogames.

of course. Because we all know there are no video games outside the US....
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#136 DeNiro

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

of course. Because we all know there are no video games outside the US....


I find the video game and culture of violence argument so dumb. Like you said, every other country has the same video games, and imports violence into their culture in the form of movies and television.

These arguments are used by pro gun lobbyists, and are simply meant to divert attention away from the real issues. American youth are the same as any kids around the world.

So when all things are equal, you have to look at what the differences in American society are. And really the only differences are the ability to obtain weapons. That seems pretty obvious to me, I don't see why it wouldn't be to everyone.

Edited by DeNiro, 21 December 2012 - 11:06 PM.

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#137 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:09 PM

I find the video game and culture of violence argument so dumb. Like you said, every other country has the same video games, and imports violence into their culture in the form of movies and television.

These arguments are used by pro gun lobbyists, and are simply meant to divert attention away from the real issues. American youth are the same as any kids around the world.

So when all things are equal, you have to look at what the differences in American society are. And really the only differences are the ability to obtain weapons. That seems pretty obvious to me, I don't see why it wouldn't be to everyone.

Pretty much what I've been saying for the past week or so....
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#138 pimpcurtly

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:54 AM

People want to equip teachers with guns? Are those teachers also going to be equipped with tactical bullet proof gear from head-to-toe just like the mass murderers in many of these shootings? Because if not, I can't see the staff being too effective against assailants covered in armour. Under pressure, moving target, not much to shoot at....I dunno....that would be a tough shot for marine, let alone a school teacher.
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#139 DeNiro

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:51 AM

People want to equip teachers with guns? Are those teachers also going to be equipped with tactical bullet proof gear from head-to-toe just like the mass murderers in many of these shootings? Because if not, I can't see the staff being too effective against assailants covered in armour. Under pressure, moving target, not much to shoot at....I dunno....that would be a tough shot for marine, let alone a school teacher.


These shooters plan out their shootings well in advance. If they know that teachers have guns, they're going to plan for that, by either taking out the teacher right away and barricading the doors. And like you said, they'll have body armor anyways.

If these wackos are gonna do these things, there's not a whole lot you can do to stop them. As we've seen, schools are not the only place these guys target. There's shopping malls and movie theaters too. Should the projectionist be armed with a sniper rifle in every movie theater?

Again this is ignoring the real issue of prevention. How do you try and prevent these things from happening in the first place? Don't just accept them and say, well how do we deal with them when they happen?

It starts with limiting the availability of weapons, especially assault weapons, to the general public. And having intense background checks and mental health tests. I wouldn't even be against having an age limit for purchasing guns. Seems to me the people who commit these massacres are always males age 18-25. Take away their ability to purchase guns and you might limit some of these shootings.
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#140 Bill Sikes

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:30 AM

People want to equip teachers with guns? Are those teachers also going to be equipped with tactical bullet proof gear from head-to-toe just like the mass murderers in many of these shootings? Because if not, I can't see the staff being too effective against assailants covered in armour. Under pressure, moving target, not much to shoot at....I dunno....that would be a tough shot for marine, let alone a school teacher.

Dammit Jim I'm a teacher not a gunfighter
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#141 Bill Sikes

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:41 AM

.

Edited by Norman Clegg, 22 December 2012 - 06:46 AM.

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#142 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:07 AM



on the more serious side....



Momma said a pistol is the devil's right hand....
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#143 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvEGQ4XkDMI

on the more serious side....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqc9oDEPBsk

Momma said a pistol is the devil's right hand....


LOL....the Weird Al video made my day...thanks! :)
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#144 elvis15

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:16 AM

The concerning issue is that, a gunmen would go to a school to pull a trigger and wouldn't care too much about who he/she shoots while the armed guard has to find the line of sight. It does make the situation very dangerous. The point i'm trying to make is that the people from the other side would say guns can be used for self defence and we should arm good people with guns. But its never that simplistic.

The one example i can think of is the shooting of the democratic senator(Arizona i believe). Apparently there were a couple of people in the crowd with handguns but couldn't fire back because of the chaos that followed.

Agreed in that respect, where the shooter may have a specific target but it unlikely to worry about who else they shoot or how many. The guard (or just any regular citizen with a gun) would have to worry about hitting anyone other than the intended target and while they may be able to get off a few shots with only the shooter in line of fire, there are most likely going to be innocent people in the way.

Certainly, my point was that armed guards at banks aren't analogous to armed guards at schools. You certainly may find some instances where if people are carrying guns where their job isn't to guard or police a situation then there's certainly more possibility of bad choices resulting in people getting shot by the people trying to do good. Calling anything a wild west shootout is an exaggeration of course, but does suggest the uncontrollable nature of the situation which only gets worse when you add more and more people with guns to the mix.
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#145 bjh

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:42 PM

Give all the kids guns so they can fend for themselves. Duh.
Install booby traps all over the school and teach only the kids and teachers how to bypass them.


Install a minefield on the path leading up to the school doors, again teach only the kids and teachers how to avoid being exploded.
Can we please make sure that we spend more money on weapons to protect our children? We must secure their future.
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#146 Electro Rock

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:56 PM

People want to equip teachers with guns? Are those teachers also going to be equipped with tactical bullet proof gear from head-to-toe just like the mass murderers in many of these shootings? Because if not, I can't see the staff being too effective against assailants covered in armour. Under pressure, moving target, not much to shoot at....I dunno....that would be a tough shot for marine, let alone a school teacher.


Someone who takes a center mass magazine dump is going to be badly hurt (as in broken ribs etc) by sheer impact even if the bullets all strike the limited coverage provided by the armor and the armor doesn't fail.

Its possible that one of the guys might get their hands on military grade armor with better coverage, where they could strug off pistol bullets, but we haven't seen that yet aside from the non school shooting North Hollywood bank robbers in 1997.


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#147 pimpcurtly

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

Someone who takes a center mass magazine dump is going to be badly hurt (as in broken ribs etc) by sheer impact even if the bullets all strike the limited coverage provided by the armor and the armor doesn't fail.

Its possible that one of the guys might get their hands on military grade armor with better coverage, where they could strug off pistol bullets, but we haven't seen that yet aside from the non school shooting North Hollywood bank robbers in 1997.


You make a good point but I have a hard time believing that one of these psychos is going to just allow you to empty a clip on him....and that all(or even the majority) of those rounds even hit him as he undoubtably would be scrambling for cover and/or shooting back. And other than a kill shot(possible but not probable), adrenaline alone could keep the gunman up and killing people for minutes afterwards. Not much chance for the teacher after that.

Edited by pimpcurtly, 22 December 2012 - 02:04 PM.

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#148 Electro Rock

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

You make a good point but I have a hard time believing that one of these psychos is going to just allow you to empty a clip on him....and that all(or even the majority) of those rounds even hit him as he undoubtably would be scrambling for cover and/or shooting back. And other than a kill shot(possible but not probable), adrenaline alone could keep the gunman up and killing people for minutes afterwards. Not much chance for the teacher after that.


These guys (aside from the North Hollywood robbers, which was a totally different scenario) all seem to go down or surrender easily enough somebody starts shooting back, if they don't suicide.





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#149 dudeone

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

Fact-Checking the NRA Press Conference

By Dashiell Bennett | The Atlantic WireFri, Dec 21, 2012
http://news.yahoo.com/fact-checking-nra-press-conference-185542748.html

The proposals and opinions offered by the National Rifle Association's Wayne LaPierre at a press conference Friday have been roundly criticized by gun controlopponents already, but is he also wrong about the bare facts? While many of the gun lobby's latest claims about armed security are debatable, and LaPierre's pop-culture references — Mortal Kombat? American Psycho? — are out-of-date enough to be easily debunked, there were a handful of actual factual assertions in his speech today that we decided to double check just to see if the NRA's talking points match up with reality. Here's what we found on some of key statements.


"Killers, robbers, rapists and drug gang members who have spread like cancer in every community in this country. Meanwhile, federal gun prosecutions have decreased by 40% — to the lowest levels in a decade.
So now, due to a declining willingness to prosecute dangerous criminals, violent crime is increasing again for the first time in 19 years!"


It's true that the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported an increase in violent crime in 2011 (from record lows the year before), but that increase was attributed almost entirely to a rise in simple assaults: which specifically means no weapon was used. But according the FBI, "all four of the violent crime offense categories — murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault — declined nationwide when compared with data from 2010." Different areas of the country have seen different experiences, but on the whole, the most violent offense continue to decline.


RELATED: The NRA vs. Really Old Video Games: Important Updates for Wayne LaPierre


It's also true that federal prosecutions of gun crimes are down after a big uptickduring the middle of the Bush administration. However, since it would make sense of a decline in prosecutions to also match a decline in violent crimes to prosecute, we'll let experts argue over whether fewer charges are brought because they aren't needed or we aren't trying.


"How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation's refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill?"


To our knowledge, no one — not even the NRA — has proposed a national database of the mentally ill. Since similar databases of sex offenders have done little to protect children from sex crimes, that seems unlikely to help. Also, few organizations have done more than the NRA to block the registration of anything, as they work vigorously to defeat gun registration databases wherever they find them.


RELATED: The NRA's Social Media Silence Isn't Working


Most recently, they have called for the repeal of Michigan's state-wide pistol registry, a law that State Police credit for solving a recent shooting spree that targeted drives on the busy I-96 corridor. However, they do maintain a National Registry of Places to Shoot.


"Worse, they perpetuate the dangerous notion that one more gun ban — or one more law imposed on peaceful, lawful people — will protect us where 20,000 others have failed!"


It is an oft-repeated talking point that there are 20,000 federal, state, and local gun control laws currently on the books. A 2003 study from the Brooking Institution challenged that unsourced statistic, which has apparently been floating around since the 1960s. They pegged the number of statewide gun control laws at about 300 [PDF], adding that "even a very liberal interpretation of what should count as a separate law would leave the total well short of 20,000."


"But do know this President zeroed out school emergency planning grants in last year's budget, and scrapped "Secure Our Schools" policinggrants in next year's budget."


This is also true, but also quite bold of LaPierre to bring up, since he began his speech by attacking "gun-free school zones" and ignored the record of the NRA efforts on community policing. In the 1994 crime bill that included the original assault weapons ban, Bill Clinton included a new program called "Community Oriented Policing Services" that meant to add 100,000 new police officers to our streets (which LaPierre is essentially now proposing by putting cops in every school.) The NRA opposed that bill in 1994 and later mocked the COPS program for failing to meet its promise. Now he's complaining about the loss of "Secure Our Schools" grants. They were administered by COPS.

We need to have every single school in America immediately deploy a protection program proven to work — and by that I mean armed security.


Mother Jones has made a persuasive case that arming civilians does little to stop mass shooters, and even cops can't stop every shooting. Columbine High School had an armed security officer on campus at the time of the 1999 shooting that killed 13 people. He even exchanged gunfire with one of the killers. Neither one of them was hit.


Those are the facts, as best we could amass them quickly. Whether some talking points came from Facebook, well, that's another story.

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#150 dudeone

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

The NRA proposal would take one of every seven U.S. police officers off the streets during school days, based on a Reuters analysis of U.S. government data.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/21/us-usa-shooting-connecticut-idUSBRE8BI1BV20121221
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