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Gunman kills woman at Pennsylvania church, two men elsewhere


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#61 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:59 AM

Not sure where I ever said gun ban? Things change. Just because it seems unlikely or is hard is no excuse to do nothing.


Do nothing? What exactly do you propose I and those who are against these types of weapons do about it...confront these gun nuts? Screw that...I value my life too much to get heavily involved like that. You can, though if you like...
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#62 inane

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:02 AM

Do nothing? What exactly do you propose I and those who are against these types of weapons do about it...confront these gun nuts? Screw that...I value my life too much to get heavily involved like that. You can, though if you like...


So in your mind it's do nothing or confront gun nuts? Wtf man. You're clearly too emotional for this convo to go anywhere...

#63 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:18 AM

So in your mind it's do nothing or confront gun nuts? Wtf man. You're clearly too emotional for this convo to go anywhere...


No in my mind it's "They aren't bothering me personally or my family or anyone I care about, so I really don't have any solutions because I honestly don't care what these people do...but I already stated I'm against military grade weapons, and if they were somehow to pass THAT exception as it pertained to the Second Amendment I'd be satisfied with that, but I know...because I am very observant, that even that exception will be like pulling teeth, so I highly doubt any real change is going to occur" You have some sort of thought in your head that there is strong and solid middle ground on this issue. There isn't. On one hand you have right wing wingnut crackpots like the NRA, on the other you have people like me, bleeding heart liberals who would dearly love to see the US have to give up all of its arms for the sake of peace and attempting to get along with each other. A very treacherous middle ground is populated by those who want an exception made to this amendment, and unfortunately, just like third-party politics, their voices are not strong enough to affect a difference currently in the debate over guns in this country.
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#64 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

Maybe we should create a new thread every single time someone dies in the US by a gun.

Why do people keep doing this? It's news. It's germane to what's been going on in the world lately...

We create a new thread every time someone gets traded, don't we?
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#65 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:58 PM

I'd just like to add that while mental illness isn't exclusive to the US, the lack of care and in some cases general apathy toward the mentally ill by lazy, incompetent doctors is fairly exclusive to the US. I can't think of any other first world country where the mentally ill are swept under the rug or doped with so much medication that they cannot function in their nation's "normal" society.

I'd like to see some stats to support this assertion MM. Not that I doubt your word, it's just that something like mental illness is so hard to identify and quantify, I'd be surprised if anyone at an official level had any idea what the actual instances of mental illness are in the US. (Or in any other country, for that matter)

It brings up another point:

I would be interested in hearing what congress, in particular, would have to say about pouring resources into some kind of coordinated, government administered mental health program, since this would be contributing to the so-called "nanny state" that Republicans seem to be so hell-bent on avoiding. It would also likely require a tax increase, which is yet another right wing bugaboo.

If left with the choice between that, or restrictions on certain types of firearms and ammo, I wonder what they'd choose? Of course, we know the answer is "Neither", but at least we'd know for sure what their real priorities are.
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#66 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

I'd like to see some stats to support this assertion MM. Not that I doubt your word, it's just that something like mental illness is so hard to identify and quantify, I'd be surprised if anyone at an official level had any idea what the actual instances of mental illness are in the US. (Or in any other country, for that matter)

It brings up another point:

I would be interested in hearing what congress, in particular, would have to say about pouring resources into some kind of coordinated, government administered mental health program, since this would be contributing to the so-called "nanny state" that Republicans seem to be so hell-bent on avoiding. It would also likely require a tax increase, which is yet another right wing bugaboo.

If left with the choice between that, or restrictions on certain types of firearms and ammo, I wonder what they'd choose? Of course, we know the answer is "Neither", but at least we'd know for sure what their real priorities are.


I too would be interested to hear where Congress would stand on implementing a program like you have described.
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#67 Stefan

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:12 PM

Here you go again with this crap...these things do not happen in the US "daily" and it CERTAINLY isn't a "norm". You should refrain from posting until you get your head out of your butt.

There's on average 30 gun related deaths a day in the states.
Explain how this isn't typical?

Edited by Stefan, 23 December 2012 - 01:12 PM.

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#68 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

There's on average 30 gun related deaths a day in the states.
Explain how this isn't typical?


Ever stop to think that it only seems typical now because there's so much media attention on it? What about the deaths that go unreported? The media sensationalizes everything so much...and makes instant celebrities of these deranged individuals carrying out the mass violence that immediately following there's ALWAYS a sweeps week full of every gun death that is reported anyplace, they magnify everything and blow it out of proportion, and there's a mass hysteria that leads to people striking up the gun debate again. I'm getting sick of hearing it...I hate that these things have happened, but continuing to make a big deal out of it only leads to more attempts at copycatting it. Sad but true. If the media would let something die down, maybe there wouldn't be so much hysteria that continues to permeate the news for months after.

Edited by Munchie Marauder, 23 December 2012 - 01:19 PM.

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#69 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:17 PM

There's on average 30 gun related deaths a day in the states.
Explain how this isn't typical?

He was referring to mass shootings, such as occurred at Sandy Hook or Columbine. It was the hyperbole of claiming that these types of incidents happen every day that had his back up.

However, there is no doubt that shootings, of all types, are far more common in the US than in any other developed country.
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#70 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:56 AM

Ever stop to think that it only seems typical now because there's so much media attention on it? What about the deaths that go unreported? The media sensationalizes everything so much...and makes instant celebrities of these deranged individuals carrying out the mass violence that immediately following there's ALWAYS a sweeps week full of every gun death that is reported anyplace, they magnify everything and blow it out of proportion, and there's a mass hysteria that leads to people striking up the gun debate again. I'm getting sick of hearing it...I hate that these things have happened, but continuing to make a big deal out of it only leads to more attempts at copycatting it. Sad but true. If the media would let something die down, maybe there wouldn't be so much hysteria that continues to permeate the news for months after.

The media does what they do successfully because lemmings are trained to react very swiftly and just as sensationally to tragedy.

#71 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

The media does what they do successfully because lemmings are trained to react very swiftly and just as sensationally to tragedy.


I was shocked and upset for about a day...about a day...and then I got tired of hearing about it, to be honest. It was a horrible tragedy, but ob la di ob la da, life goes on, brah...and just like any other incident...9/11, or a popular celebrity's death...they cannot let it die....and that's what's jaded so many like me away from the news at all.

Edited by Munchie Marauder, 24 December 2012 - 05:05 AM.

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#72 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

I was shocked and upset for about a day...about a day...and then I got tired of hearing about it, to be honest. It was a horrible tragedy, but ob la di ob la da, life goes on, brah...and just like any other incident...9/11, or a popular celebrity's death...they cannot let it die....and that's what's jaded so many like me away from the news at all.

Indeed. I just stopped watching news until this media fetish for exploiting tragedy passed.. or at least, until they could go on to the next one.

#73 Stefan

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:35 PM

He was referring to mass shootings, such as occurred at Sandy Hook or Columbine. It was the hyperbole of claiming that these types of incidents happen every day that had his back up.

However, there is no doubt that shootings, of all types, are far more common in the US than in any other developed country.

Nope. He was responding to someone questioning the legitimacy of this thread which is a few people getting shot.
Tragedy, yes.
More common than most people think? Yes.

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#74 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

Nope. He was responding to someone questioning the legitimacy of this thread which is a few people getting shot.
Tragedy, yes.
More common than most people think? Yes.


Partially correct. I was responding to someone who is stunningly uninformed about the US and among other things its cultural diversity and lifestyles within, who was questioning the legitimacy of this thread, who makes inane generalizations about the US despite only visiting Las Vegas and Los Angeles and basing his nonsense on a very limited amount of comparative data. He really does make the most infuriating generalizations I have ever seen. As sad as this shooting was, the media is in overdrive right now...and they get great ratings milking the hell out of a tragedy...see 9/11...so they are the driving force, in my view, behind this recent rash of violence...as a matter of fact....if it weren't for them sensationalizing the Aurora shooting, chances are there wouldn't have been an Oregon mall shooting, and if there was no Oregon mall shooting being sensationalized there likely wouldn't have been a Sandy Hook shooting. These fake-emotional broadcasters and their crocodile tears that try to make you think they actually give a damn about what they're reporting...if they'd not give these lunatics the front page and instant infamy after something like this happens....don'tcha think that maybe these kinds of things would STOP happening?

Edited by Munchie Marauder, 24 December 2012 - 01:57 PM.

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#75 Stefan

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

No.
And I'll tell you why. Because for years, despite media hype, these things have been happening. It's the gun control, (or lack of it). Not the media.

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#76 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:08 PM

No.
And I'll tell you why. Because for years, despite media hype, these things have been happening. It's the gun control, (or lack of it). Not the media.


Well...for years before the information age...big time newspapers like the New York Times, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, Boston Globe, were sensationalizing and over-hyping situations like this too...so I do believe that a lot of this is media-driven...you're of course welcome to disagree with this, but these kinds of things have been oversaturating every US news media source. And as I said they do this for up to a week or so after every incident...and people are still shocked that there are copycat shootings? Seriously?
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#77 inane

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

No in my mind it's "They aren't bothering me personally or my family or anyone I care about, so I really don't have any solutions because I honestly don't care what these people do...but I already stated I'm against military grade weapons, and if they were somehow to pass THAT exception as it pertained to the Second Amendment I'd be satisfied with that, but I know...because I am very observant, that even that exception will be like pulling teeth, so I highly doubt any real change is going to occur" You have some sort of thought in your head that there is strong and solid middle ground on this issue. There isn't. On one hand you have right wing wingnut crackpots like the NRA, on the other you have people like me, bleeding heart liberals who would dearly love to see the US have to give up all of its arms for the sake of peace and attempting to get along with each other. A very treacherous middle ground is populated by those who want an exception made to this amendment, and unfortunately, just like third-party politics, their voices are not strong enough to affect a difference currently in the debate over guns in this country.


You sure seem to assume a lot about people you don't know. A, that you know what I'm thinking, and B, that you know what Americans in general think. Who the hell are you to speak for me, or for Americans?

Maybe you're right though, and it wouldn't work. But it sure as hell isn't going to work if you don't try. I'd rather try something and fail than sit back and assume it would.

#78 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:04 PM

I was shocked and upset for about a day...about a day...and then I got tired of hearing about it, to be honest. It was a horrible tragedy, but ob la di ob la da, life goes on, brah...and just like any other incident...9/11, or a popular celebrity's death...they cannot let it die....and that's what's jaded so many like me away from the news at all.

I was tired of hearing about Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston a day after their respective deaths, mostly because both were the result of self-destructive behavior.

However, I'll never be tired of calling out those who would be more than happy to let these incidents "go away" and be forgotten, so things can go back to "normal".

"Normal" needs to change and it needs to change now. If the price of that is hammering away at the issue over and over, until the pro-gun lobby is sick of it, then so be it.
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#79 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:10 PM

You sure seem to assume a lot about people you don't know. A, that you know what I'm thinking, and B, that you know what Americans in general think. Who the hell are you to speak for me, or for Americans?

Maybe you're right though, and it wouldn't work. But it sure as hell isn't going to work if you don't try. I'd rather try something and fail than sit back and assume it would.


K...first of all...you were the one who had something snarky to say to me when you said "so in your mind it's either do nothing or confront gun nuts"...so, I naturally assumed you were talking about a middle ground...I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were saying...but please...and I'm being sincere here...what do you think the best course of action is on this issue? How do you suggest we begin? They already tried an assault weapons ban once, but in 2004 it expired under a "sunset provision". There've been numerous attempts to renew it but they cannot get enough support for it. What do you suggest they do?

Edited by Munchie Marauder, 24 December 2012 - 03:11 PM.

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#80 inane

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:21 PM

K...first of all...you were the one who had something snarky to say to me when you said "so in your mind it's either do nothing or confront gun nuts"...so, I naturally assumed you were talking about a middle ground...I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were saying...but please...and I'm being sincere here...what do you think the best course of action is on this issue? How do you suggest we begin? They already tried an assault weapons ban once, but in 2004 it expired under a "sunset provision". There've been numerous attempts to renew it but they cannot get enough support for it. What do you suggest they do?


Umm, that's what you said. You said the alternative to do nothing would be to 'confront these gun nuts' as you eloquently put it.

Start with a conversation of course, like anything else. Jumping into 'ban this' won't work, you need to talk to people like they are adults. In the mean time, as we've seen, there will be more and more murders and that will have to be part of the conversation. And it's not an easy one, it means some introspection and looking in the mirror. It ain't always pretty. But the US is so far above and beyond every other nation in its league in terms of killing each other--maybe it's time for a tough conversation. Latching on to a piece of the constitution written centuries ago in an entirely different context makes no sense and is just a refuge for those that don't want to talk.

And there will always be those people, that's fine. Just like there are those that say 'ban all guns' or whatever. But like everything political, the vast majority sits somewhere in the middle, relatively silently. You need to tap into them.

#81 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

Umm, that's what you said. You said the alternative to do nothing would be to 'confront these gun nuts' as you eloquently put it.

Start with a conversation of course, like anything else. Jumping into 'ban this' won't work, you need to talk to people like they are adults. In the mean time, as we've seen, there will be more and more murders and that will have to be part of the conversation. And it's not an easy one, it means some introspection and looking in the mirror. It ain't always pretty. But the US is so far above and beyond every other nation in its league in terms of killing each other--maybe it's time for a tough conversation. Latching on to a piece of the constitution written centuries ago in an entirely different context makes no sense and is just a refuge for those that don't want to talk.

And there will always be those people, that's fine. Just like there are those that say 'ban all guns' or whatever. But like everything political, the vast majority sits somewhere in the middle, relatively silently. You need to tap into them.


I hate to say this, inane, but the vast majority actually are quite apathetic on this issue...if it doesn't affect them personally, they don't rightly care all that much about it. The more vocal ones are the ones who lean either way on this, and the vast majority of the vast majority are turned off subsequently by the radical ideas from either side...they get just as tired of hearing the anti-gun people as they do of the pro-gun people...and when you're dealing with people who have no stance on the issue either way and continue to banter back and forth what makes you think the silent majority is going to want to choose a side any time in the near future...I'm sorry to be such a pessimist on this, but I think the vast majority are just jaded and like me get tired of hearing all the bad stuff that's happening and just turn off the news completely. As a matter of fact..in the last month..I've avoided the television news and msnbc and cnn like the plague...but I still wind up hearing the bad news anyway, cos that's all anyone ever talks about anymore.
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