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#31 Baercheese

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

Sweatt - Schroeder - Haydar
Sterling - Ebbett - Kassian

Would be pretty hard to beat any of those guys out for a top six role.

lol really? You dont expect "one of your best prospects" to beat Haydar or Sterling? AHL journeymen?
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Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#32 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

Brassard has not built off of his 08-09 season, that is true. But IMO the potential is still there, and I think that there would be a lot of teams interested in picking him up, far more than what would exist for Raymond. Decent production the last two years. Better than a "3rd liner". Can't discount the fact that he's playing on a truly pathetic team, either.

And if "struggling" is so important, would you trade Ballard for Komisarek? Both guys are struggling and need a change.


There is a tendacy here, and I have it too. To underrate Raymond.

He's obviously not the top 6 forward he was atm. but he is still a 2nd'3rd liner with 2nd line upside, we underrate what we could get in return.

He is in the exact same situation Higgins was in when we got him, and Florida still managed a decent return, Brassard is in the exact same area in his career too.

So just looking at comparables, if Higgins got a 3rd and Oberg which really isn't much, and isn't as much as this, Brassard getting Raymond, Rodin and a 5th looks pretty fair. And then the Higgins return is also why I don't understand people who think Raymond is absolutely useless to other teams.

If they could get this guy for free I guarentee there would be a # of teams interested.
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#33 King of the ES

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

Sweatt - Schroeder - Haydar
Sterling - Ebbett - Kassian

Would be pretty hard to beat any of those guys out for a top six role.


The team's leader in points has 16, which is equal to the amount of goals that Justin Schultz has. Let's not ignore the facts. Not exactly an offensive juggernaut, these Wolves.

Edited by King of the ES, 26 December 2012 - 06:04 PM.

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#34 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

lol really? You dont expect "one of your best prospects" to beat Haydar or Sterling? AHL journeymen?


I don't know about Sterling being an AHL journeyman, he's an AHL star. He is leading the team in Points and if you check his stats has scored 40+ Goal in the AHL more than once if I recall correctly. Haydar is also looked on to provide offense, and is the captain of the team, which warrants him more leverage with the coach (Much more since he was playing worse than Anton not that long ago) And even Ebbett has looked bad lately.

Arniel has kind of had a drinking problem as of late, his line-up descisions have been quesationable to say the least, Rodin was on a streak earlier before his injury where he had 4 points in 2 games playing with or something to that effect.

He has been inconsistent but he has had his moments, for a player who plays every 2nd game, and plays on the third line when he does play 8 Points in 18 Games isn't entirely bad IMO.
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#35 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

The team's leader in points (Haydar) has 16. Let's not ignore the facts.


:picard: Clearly you did, Haydar isn't leading the team in points, this just shows how little you actually know about that Wolves.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 26 December 2012 - 06:03 PM.

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#36 Pears

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

lol really? You dont expect "one of your best prospects" to beat Haydar or Sterling? AHL journeymen?

Rodin could beat out Sterling. But Haydar is the Wolves' captain, highly unlikely Rodin beats him out.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#37 King of the ES

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

There is a tendacy here, and I have it too. To underrate Raymond.

He's obviously not the top 6 forward he was atm. but he is still a 2nd'3rd liner with 2nd line upside, we underrate what we could get in return.

He is in the exact same situation Higgins was in when we got him, and Florida still managed a decent return, Brassard is in the exact same area in his career too.

So just looking at comparables, if Higgins got a 3rd and Oberg which really isn't much, and isn't as much as this, Brassard getting Raymond, Rodin and a 5th looks pretty fair. And then the Higgins return is also why I don't understand people who think Raymond is absolutely useless to other teams.

If they could get this guy for free I guarentee there would be a # of teams interested.


He's not at all in the same situation as Higgins. The Panthers were Higgins' 4th team and he was 28 years old.

Brassard still has to be considered at a minimum very intriguing/high potential, and more likely a legitimate franchise building block. Raymond's OK, but the last two years have been dreadful, and they occurred at a time when he (in theory) should have been developing further. Ask 30 teams who they'd rather have, and I would guess that 30 would prefer Derick Brassard over Mason Raymond. Rodin & a 5th aren't adequate compensation for the variance.
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#38 King of the ES

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

:picard: Clearly you did, Haydar isn't leading the team in points, this just shows how little you actually know about that Wolves.


Haydar, Sterling, who cares. Obvious point is that the team is not exactly an offensive firepower. Rodin - a featherweight who's there to provide offense - being allocated to the 3rd line should tell you something.
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#39 Baercheese

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

I don't know about Sterling being an AHL journeyman, he's an AHL star. He is leading the team in Points and if you check his stats has scored 40+ Goal in the AHL more than once if I recall correctly. Haydar is also looked on to provide offense, and is the captain of the team, which warrants him more leverage with the coach (Much more since he was playing worse than Anton not that long ago) And even Ebbett has looked bad lately.

Arniel has kind of had a drinking problem as of late, his line-up descisions have been quesationable to say the least, Rodin was on a streak earlier before his injury where he had 4 points in 2 games playing with or something to that effect.

He has been inconsistent but he has had his moments, for a player who plays every 2nd game, and plays on the third line when he does play 8 Points in 18 Games isn't entirely bad IMO.

That's what I meant. NHL is not in his sight

And Haydar has a whooping 3 goals this year, in the AHL. You'd think Rodin would rise to challenge for that spot

Edited by Sven Baertschi, 26 December 2012 - 06:21 PM.

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3499h5x.jpg
Johnny Gaudreau>any Casucks

Edler, Markstrom, Hansen, 2nd round pick 2014 to Islanders for Ryan Strome, 5th overall pick 2014

This is fairly even as well.

 


#40 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

That's what I meant. NHL is not in his sight

And Haydar has a whooping 3 goals this year, in the AHL. You'd think Rodin would rise to challenge for that spot


Yeah I would think so too, I don't know what Arniel has been drinking for the last few months honestly.

Haydar, Joslin and Ebbett have continually look terrible yet he still gives them chances, and the PP has been bad the entire year, Im done with that guy he needs to go.
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#41 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

He's not at all in the same situation as Higgins. The Panthers were Higgins' 4th team and he was 28 years old.

Brassard still has to be considered at a minimum very intriguing/high potential, and more likely a legitimate franchise building block. Raymond's OK, but the last two years have been dreadful, and they occurred at a time when he (in theory) should have been developing further. Ask 30 teams who they'd rather have, and I would guess that 30 would prefer Derick Brassard over Mason Raymond. Rodin & a 5th aren't adequate compensation for the variance.


King you dont get it, he's never going to be that, he doesn't have that potential anymore, he's just not what Columbus thought he would be.

And Yes Raymond's last two years have been bad, all of Brassard's years have been bad, and you say Raymond should have in theory been developing futher, Brassard should have been developing into something more than a mediore 2nd/3rd liner.

And yes actually it is the same, Higgins had showed that he had the potential to be better but had been struggling mightly just like Raymond and Brassard, he had tried and failed in Florida and needed to be put in the right situation to revive his career, just like Brassard and Raymond do.
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#42 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

Haydar, Sterling, who cares. Obvious point is that the team is not exactly an offensive firepower. Rodin - a featherweight who's there to provide offense - being allocated to the 3rd line should tell you something.


Actually he's a two way player, yes more offense is expected of him but no one is expecting him to light up the league, and honestly I don't think 8 Points in 18 games is all that bad for him when you consider the circumstances, it's not great but if he can continue on this pace he could get 30-40 Points. Which is respectable for a player playing every 2nd game and playing on the third line.
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#43 King of the ES

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:43 PM

King you dont get it, he's never going to be that, he doesn't have that potential anymore, he's just not what Columbus thought he would be.

And Yes Raymond's last two years have been bad, all of Brassard's years have been bad, and you say Raymond should have in theory been developing futher, Brassard should have been developing into something more than a mediore 2nd/3rd liner.

And yes actually it is the same, Higgins had showed that he had the potential to be better but had been struggling mightly just like Raymond and Brassard, he had tried and failed in Florida and needed to be put in the right situation to revive his career, just like Brassard and Raymond do.


If Brassard is as useless as you allege, why do you want him, anyway?

All of his years have been bad? Please. Again, look at 08-09. Look at his points - this was done on very limited ice time. And the last two years have not been nearly as bad as Raymond's. He's playing alongside nobody's and he's averaging ~45 points in 70ish games. The guy's 25 years old.

And if it's so identical to Higgins, why was Higgins playing on his 4th team when we acquired him? Columbus hasn't traded Brassard because they're not willing to give up on him, because he's a good player with a lot of potential. Do you seriously think that Columbus would trade Derick Brassard to Florida for Evan Oberg and a 3rd round pick?!?
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#44 King of the ES

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

Actually he's a two way player, yes more offense is expected of him but no one is expecting him to light up the league, and honestly I don't think 8 Points in 18 games is all that bad for him when you consider the circumstances, it's not great but if he can continue on this pace he could get 30-40 Points. Which is respectable for a player playing every 2nd game and playing on the third line.


Explain to me how 30-40 points in the AHL is "respectable", yet 47 points in the NHL is "bad", as you had just said that Brassard hasn't had a single good year as an NHL player.

EDIT: when Brassard was 20, BTW (ie - 2 years younger than Rodin, who currently has 1 goal in 18 AHL games), he had 51 points in 42 AHL games, and then followed that up with 13 points in 13 playoff games. At the age of 22, Brassard had established himself as an NHL player getting roughly 0.5 PPG.

Edited by King of the ES, 26 December 2012 - 06:48 PM.

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#45 Snake Doctor

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

I like it but would like to see what we get back in the luongo deal first
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#46 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:16 PM

If Brassard is as useless as you allege, why do you want him, anyway?

All of his years have been bad? Please. Again, look at 08-09. Look at his points - this was done on very limited ice time. And the last two years have not been nearly as bad as Raymond's. He's playing alongside nobody's and he's averaging ~45 points in 70ish games. The guy's 25 years old.

And if it's so identical to Higgins, why was Higgins playing on his 4th team when we acquired him? Columbus hasn't traded Brassard because they're not willing to give up on him, because he's a good player with a lot of potential. Do you seriously think that Columbus would trade Derick Brassard to Florida for Evan Oberg and a 3rd round pick?!?


One decent year and he has done nothing but disgress since, and King I don't know how you can sit there and say he has had limited ice time when his entire career in Columbus he has been a top 6 forward, and that includes alot of time on the top line & top PP with Rick Nash.

How do you know they haven't traded him because they don't wanna give up on him? Maybe no one is interested or maybe the deals have been terrible. You can't say that for sure.

As for the Higgins/Brassard thing.

Your argument:
- Brassard hasn't played on 4 teams

My arguement:
- They have both underachieving players.
- Both at similar stages in there career
- Both who need the right fit
- Both who has the potential to do better things but need a change of scenery to do so.

Your going to have to come up with a little more substances than that, aswell as more substances than putting all your apples in the 08/09 basket while balantly forgetting about the other 4 years where there has been no improvement.

I don't know how you can continue to sit here and say that he has this amazing potential still when he hasn't improved at all over the past 3 years, and has proven himself as nothing more than a 3rd liner thusfar.

There's no issue getting 40 Points but when you can't improve on the 40ish point mark when you apparently have this absolute star potential like you seem to think, then it's a clear indicator he just isn't going to become what was expected.

And why do I want him? As I explain before, it is about fit, having Brassard who can play center on the 3rd line is much better for us than having an extra winger we don't need.
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#47 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

Explain to me how 30-40 points in the AHL is "respectable", yet 47 points in the NHL is "bad", as you had just said that Brassard hasn't had a single good year as an NHL player.

EDIT: when Brassard was 20, BTW (ie - 2 years younger than Rodin, who currently has 1 goal in 18 AHL games), he had 51 points in 42 AHL games, and then followed that up with 13 points in 13 playoff games. At the age of 22, Brassard had established himself as an NHL player getting roughly 0.5 PPG.


Rodin is a 2nd round pick, with no real expectations. Brassard was a 6th overall pick and at the time in the AHL was expected ot be a 1st line center, it doesn't surprised me at all, not really a fair comparison.

That's great Brassards PPG is .5 That means he is on pace for 40ish poinst every year, oh wait that's what he has been getting, not that impressive.
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#48 James van Riemsdyk

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

Rodin is a 2nd round pick, with no real expectations. Brassard was a 6th overall pick and at the time in the AHL was expected ot be a 1st line center, it doesn't surprised me at all, not really a fair comparison.

That's great Brassards PPG is .5 That means he is on pace for 40ish poinst every year, oh wait that's what he has been getting, not that impressive.


40 point is still more than the amount Rodin has put into the NHL. :P
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#49 Toews

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

Mason Raymond is coming off major surgery and has had declining production for the past couple of years. Derrick Brassard has size and enough skill to become a reasonable 3rd line center. Brassard is simply a much more valuable player due to his ability to play center. Adding Rodin and a 5th does nothing for Columbus, they need quality more than quantity.
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