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#271 Lockout Casualty

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:30 PM



America's Real Criminal Element: Lead







New research finds Pb is the hidden villain behind violent crime, lower IQs, and even the ADHD epidemic. And fixing the problem is a lot cheaper than doing nothing.

http://www.motherjon...gasoline?page=1

This was an interesting read. Maybe the lead from all the firearms in the country is keeping Americans dumber? Does it explain Bush and the Republicans? I kid of course, but the very real effects of lead on intelligence and aggressiveness can't be disputed.
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#272 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

America's Real Criminal Element: Lead







New research finds Pb is the hidden villain behind violent crime, lower IQs, and even the ADHD epidemic. And fixing the problem is a lot cheaper than doing nothing.

http://www.motherjon...gasoline?page=1

This was an interesting read. Maybe the lead from all the firearms in the country is keeping Americans dumber? Does it explain Bush and the Republicans? I kid of course, but the very real effects of lead on intelligence and aggressiveness can't be disputed.


Maybe that explains the Z-man .. one should never sniff anything but 91 octane unleaded .. even our healthcare system canna heal permanent brain cell loss ..
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#273 Electro Rock

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

Not quite. Gang homicides number roughly 2,000 per year (http://www.nationalg...f-Gang-Problems bottom of page). That's all homicides. That would be... oh about a quarter maybe (if all were firearm homicides, that is)? How do you explain the other 6,000?


Thugs mostly, like the guy in the story I posted above, however note that the U.S. definition of homicide includes all events where a human causes the death of another human or themselves, not just murders.
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#274 Wetcoaster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

[/i]

SCOTUS' opinions took far more peer-reviewed studies into account that you cited, and that's the difference between them and you.. you are only posting studies and literature that you personally agree with, and you've certainly made your rather biased opinion well known. I've posted others, and there's far more than even I can cite that show what insignificant difference gun control makes in the US. To pass constitutional muster the onus is on gun control to extensively show cause for why it's necessary.

Also, as far as judges are concerned, we've been over what little it would take for them to reverse that ruling, but again, someone with an excessively higher opinion of self wishes to tell me how rare this is all while being outraged at how quickly opinion changed with Heller.


There was nothing of substance to dispute, and I don't waste much time with your type of substance lacking ad hominem.

You must have a special edition of the Heller decision because in the one I read they did not get into the various studies - the majority simply posited a right to self-defence by handgun.

Not surprising since the way in which the majority set out the question to be answered:


The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right.


Guns are used to hunt, for self-defense, to commit crimes, for sporting activities, and to perform military duties. The Second Amendment plainly does not protect the right to use a gun to rob a bank; it is equally clear that it does encompass the right to use weapons for certain military purposes. Whether it also protects the right to possess and use guns for nonmilitary purposes like hunting and personal self-defense is the question presented by this case. The text of the Amendment, its history, and our decision in United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939) , provide a clear answer to that question.


The only biased and uninformed opinions are coming from you as you completely ignore valid studies in favour of gun nutty claims.

Heller was not a quick reversal of opinion by SCOTUS. It took about two hundred years to change the prior line of cases finding the right to bear arms was not an individual right but rather one connected to a "well-regulated militia") that were last exemplified by the 1939 case of in United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939).
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#275 Lockout Casualty

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

Thugs mostly, like the guy in the story I posted above, however note that the U.S. definition of homicide includes all events where a human causes the death of another human or themselves, not just murders.


So... it's either there are thousands of Americans shooting themselves and others on purpose or accidentally? Golly gee. So which is it, most deaths are by thugs? Or are they accidental/self defense? We already know it's not by gangsters as you implied earlier.


Firearm homicides
  • Number of deaths: 11,493
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm


Take out the murders not commited by individuals who don't have gang names written in Olde English lettering all over them, and the U.S. numbers look a lot better.


We took them out. That leaves about 9,500. That's not much better, is it?
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#276 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

You must have a special edition of the Heller decision because in the one I read they did not get into the various studies - the majority simply posited a right to self-defence by handgun.

Not surprising since the way in which the majority set out the question to be answered:


The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right.


Guns are used to hunt, for self-defense, to commit crimes, for sporting activities, and to perform military duties. The Second Amendment plainly does not protect the right to use a gun to rob a bank; it is equally clear that it does encompass the right to use weapons for certain military purposes. Whether it also protects the right to possess and use guns for nonmilitary purposes like hunting and personal self-defense is the question presented by this case. The text of the Amendment, its history, and our decision in United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939) , provide a clear answer to that question.


The only biased and uninformed opinions are coming from you as you completely ignore valid studies in favour of gun nutty claims.

Heller was not a quick reversal of opinion by SCOTUS. It took about two hundred years to change the prior line of cases finding the right to bear arms was not an individual right but rather one connected to a "well-regulated militia") that were last exemplified by the 1939 case of in United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939).

Heller's examination of Miller:

"Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons. It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment."

Miller ruling also points out that the specific type of weapon was not what they had in mind, even though clearly they ignore that these types of guns were used by their own state militia. "Militia" in the second amendment means citizens, as in citizens forming a militia. Military was established in the articles, not in the Bill of Rights, there was no need to make an amendment to reassert government can form a military. Derp. I would even go so far as to interpret the second amendment as being able to legally form a citizen military against the government so as to prevent an excessively large central government and military, those two things are what the founders feared the most out of establishing a federal government.

More US constitutional studies are needed from you.

Some of us are well aware that this is a right bestowed upon citizens not government.

Edited by zaibatsu, 08 January 2013 - 01:01 PM.

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#277 Wetcoaster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

See, some users have put me on ignore and can only see my posts when they get quoted by someone else.....unfortunately, there seems to be a huge case of pot calling going on regarding substance and some users are notorious for just ignoring the questions they don't want to answer or don't have any legitimate answers for. Classic cowardice...deflect, deflect, DEFLECT....... when it comes to learned debate and discussion..........

It is most amusing in this thread to watch someone skillfully manhandling someone else who seems to believe that THEIR opinion should trump all..........regardless of the facts cited and staring them irrefutably in the face. Unfortunately for them, a very well-educated, hands on, learned man is willing to step up and attempt to educate despite the (no doubt) extreme frustration in attempting to do so. It's quite entertaining, actually....... almost like being in a courtroom.

As I have said, several times........as someone who has grown up with shotguns and rifles at home.......someone who has their Dad's prized collection of firearms in their own home, now.....there is no need I can see for ownership of automatic weapons in homes in the US.....or Canada. It may be different in a country where guerilla warfare is being waged house to house, street to street..........but that is not the life we live here in Canada, nor is it the life my brother and his family live in the US.

I also grew up with guns and was later trained to use a handgun. Living in an urban environment I have absolutely no use for a firearm these days and have not had one since returning to law school lo those 30+ years ago.

As my American cousin - a "Texican" born and bred who was a star high school QB, volunteered to fight in Vietnam, etc says the US has become the the Land of the Not So Free and Home of the Scared.
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#278 Electro Rock

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

So... it's either there are thousands of Americans shooting themselves and others on purpose or accidentally? Golly gee. So which is it, most deaths are by thugs? Or are they accidental/self defense? We already know it's not by gangsters as you implied earlier.


Firearm homicides

  • Number of deaths: 11,493
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm




We took them out. That leaves about 9,500. That's not much better, is it?


The practical difference between a gang member and thug in the U.S. context is pretty small, the term can be pretty much used interchangeably.

Basically most of the U.S. murder problem comes down to certain areas where you have a lot of either.
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#279 Wetcoaster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

Heller's examination of Miller:


Miller ruling also points out that the specific type of weapon was not what they had in mind, even though clearly they ignore that these types of guns were used by their own state militia. "Militia" in the second amendment means citizens, as in citizens forming a militia. Military was established in the articles, not in the Bill of Rights, there was no need to make an amendment to reassert government can form a military.

More US constitutional studies are needed from you.

Some of us are well aware that this is a right bestowed upon citizens not government.

The minority opinions (Stevens and Breyer) had a much different view of the Miller case and were baffled by the judicial sleight of hand inherent in the majority opinion. The majority's interpretation of Miller is tortured in the extreme.

Until Heller it was not recognized as an individual right bestowed upon citizens but rather a collective right that flowed from the concept of a well- regulated militia.
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#280 Lockout Casualty

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

I shot a 9MM Beretta in Edmonton Mall once. ^_^
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“Hi Nigel, just a quick note to say that I am always ready to do exactly what is asked but it would have been a great help to know in advance what the strategy was.”

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#281 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:06 PM

I also grew up with guns and was later trained to use a handgun. Living in an urban environment I have absolutely no use for a firearm these days and have not had one since returning to law school lo those 30+ years ago.

As my American cousin - a "Texican" born and bred who was a star high school QB, volunteered to fight in Vietnam, etc says the US has become the the Land of the Not So Free and Home of the Scared.


That is the one factor folks seem to ignore when discussing the whole gun rights issue .. too many Americans do live in fear and it warps their ability to reason and use common sense .. I knew a fellow when I lived in Anacortes for awhile, that had a handgun in every room in his house .. all loaded with one in the chamber .. he was ex-military and was careless as hell with them .. the more guns there are, the more "accidental" incidents will occur .. sounds logical to me ..
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#282 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

The minority opinions (Stevens and Breyer) had a much different view of the Miller case and were baffled by the judicial sleight of hand inherent in the majority opinion. The majority's interpretation of Miller is tortured in the extreme.

Until Heller it was not recognized as an individual right bestowed upon citizens but rather a collective right that flowed from the concept of a well- regulated militia.

The concept of "militia" in the second amendment stems from citizens forming their own small militias, nonetheless, the right of gun ownership was inherent. The militia part is obviously obsolete now, even though I don't think it should be.

Again, why would the Constitution need to bestow the right of government to have a weapon-wielding military in the Bill of Rights when it was in the articles? The Federalist papers clearly showed the founders were afraid of an excessively strong federal government, they had just fought an extended national "militia" for their freedom and weren't too fond of central government which is why there was such a fight for a federal government to exist in the first place. (<- Kind of ironic now if you consider where the US federal government today stands in scope and size)

Understanding more than having your own interpretation of "a well regulated militia", which seems more like what biblical cherry picking religious people do, would serve you well henceforth.

Edited by zaibatsu, 08 January 2013 - 01:09 PM.

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#283 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

would serve you well henceforth.



Posted Image


Gotta love those who claim to be able to read the minds of others long dead yet are so clueless and oblivious to the realities of 2012/2013.


There is no need, none at all, for fully automatic weapons to be present in the homes and neighbourhoods of Joe Q. America.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 08 January 2013 - 01:17 PM.

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#284 Wetcoaster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

That is the one factor folks seem to ignore when discussing the whole gun rights issue .. too many Americans do live in fear and it warps their ability to reason and use common sense .. I knew a fellow when I lived in Anacortes for awhile, that had a handgun in every room in his house .. all loaded with one in the chamber .. he was ex-military and was careless as hell with them .. the more guns there are, the more "accidental" incidents will occur .. sounds logical to me ..

Years back when I was working as summer student in Prince Rupert (the early 1970's) with Canada Customs and Canada Immigration we were constantly seizing handguns from Americans coming off the Alaska State Ferries.

We would always give the driver the chance to declare the firearms and the opportunity to box them up and send them back to the US.

In once case we had an RV driven by a deputy sheriff from New Mexico. He claimed to have no firearms in his RV and he was told his vehicle was going to be searched and still said no - he also claimed we had no right to search his vehicle and became quite abusive.

Bad mistake on his part. We found 17 handguns in various locations throughout the RV. He was arrested, the guns seized as was his RV and as he was being led away in cuffs he was raging about his rights to bear arms. Sorry sir, this is Canada - those rights do not exist.
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#285 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

Years back when I was working as summer student in Prince Rupert (the early 1970's) with Canada Customs and Canada Immigration we were constantly seizing handguns from Americans coming off the Alaska State Ferries.

We would always give the driver the chance to declare the firearms and the opportunity to box them up and send them back to the US.

In once case we had an RV driven by a deputy sheriff from New Mexico. He claimed to have no firearms in his RV and he was told his vehicle was going to be searched and still said no - he also claimed we had no right to search his vehicle and became quite abusive.

Bad mistake on his part. We found 17 handguns in various locations throughout the RV. He was arrested, the guns seized as was his RV and as he was being led away in cuffs he was raging about his rights to bear arms. Sorry sir, this is Canada - those rights do not exist.

But all countries have guns.. and government.. surely the US is not unique.

Anyways, dumb part on that guy for not learning more about laws pertaining to important things like firearms, when visiting a foreign country. I had to tell some American family I have in Texas not to bring them since they feel it necessary to take it everywhere. Not even in other states do they have the same laws, especially with carrying, so I guess some prefer learning the hard way.

Edited by zaibatsu, 08 January 2013 - 01:21 PM.

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#286 Wetcoaster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:20 PM

The concept of "militia" in the second amendment stems from citizens forming their own small militias, nonetheless, the right of gun ownership was inherent. The militia part is obviously obsolete now, even though I don't think it should be.

Again, why would the Constitution need to bestow the right of government to have a weapon-wielding military in the Bill of Rights when it was in the articles? The Federalist papers clearly showed the founders were afraid of an excessively strong federal government, they had just fought an extended national "militia" for their freedom and weren't too fond of central government which is why there was such a fight for a federal government to exist in the first place. (<- Kind of ironic now if you consider where the US federal government today stands in scope and size)

Understanding more than having your own interpretation of "a well regulated militia", which seems more like what biblical cherry picking religious people do, would serve you well henceforth.

That was the position of the majority but the minority took a different view.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#287 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:20 PM

*hands WC a gauze pad to blot the blood emanating from his forehead* Damn, those brick walls are hard, eh?
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"Sursumredditio" non usquam in hac mea loquantur!



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#288 Wetcoaster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:24 PM

*hands WC a gauze pad to blot the blood emanating from his forehead* Damn, those brick walls are hard, eh?

Yup.

Posted Image
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#289 Lockout Casualty

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

The practical difference between a gang member and thug in the U.S. context is pretty small, the term can be pretty much used interchangeably.

Basically most of the U.S. murder problem comes down to certain areas where you have a lot of either.


I don't understand your argument.

Take out the murders not commited by individuals who don't have gang names written in Olde English lettering all over them, and the U.S. numbers look a lot better.

The gang/thug situation is most of really what separates the U.S. from other first world countries.


We took gangs out and you say there's no difference between them and other criminals? Other countries don't have thugs? Is that what are you getting at?
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- Carolyn Stewart Olsen, Conservative Senator.

#290 Electro Rock

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

I don't understand your argument.



We took gangs out and you say there's no difference between them and other criminals? Other countries don't have thugs? Is that what are you getting at?


In terms of numbers and "seriousness" they don't.

The U.S. has over 1 million validated gang members and who knows how many folks that fit the thug catagory?

There are probably more of the aforemention in the L.A. area alone than in all of Western Europe, Australia and Canada.
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#291 Tearloch7

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:27 PM

Validated gang members and thugs? .. when over 1/3 of 1% of your population reaches this classification, it qualifies as a portent of Armageddon does it not?? .. the Empire is indeed sinking into it's self-induced mire

Edited by Tearloch7, 08 January 2013 - 02:28 PM.

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#292 woofwoofmoomoo

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:38 PM

Posted Image


Gotta love those who claim to be able to read the minds of others long dead yet are so clueless and oblivious to the realities of 2012/2013.


There is no need, none at all, for fully automatic weapons to be present in the homes and neighbourhoods of Joe Q. America.

But,but,but.........Don't you get it??? If a man has an AR15, he doesn't feel the need for Viagra as much.
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#293 Heretic

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:03 PM

America's Real Criminal Element: Lead







New research finds Pb is the hidden villain behind violent crime, lower IQs, and even the ADHD epidemic. And fixing the problem is a lot cheaper than doing nothing.

http://www.motherjon...gasoline?page=1

This was an interesting read. Maybe the lead from all the firearms in the country is keeping Americans dumber? Does it explain Bush and the Republicans? I kid of course, but the very real effects of lead on intelligence and aggressiveness can't be disputed.


Thanks - that was a good read.
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Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#294 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

Courts also have the sense to not make law abiding citizens guilty for a criminal's acts like you personally, naively wish. Sense isn't limited to the founding fathers for establishing the second amendment, it extends to judges for reasonably preserving it. You, much like Wetcoaster, have an aggrandisement issue believing you know more than all of these people and know what's best for them.


I'm not sure where you get this assertion that I "wish" citizens were held responsible for a criminal's act. I'd challenge you to show an example of me doing so, but I know you cannot, so I see no point.

Secondly, I don't believe that I "know more than all of these people", (whomever "all of these people" are) however, I am possessed of enough common sense to look at all of the evidence and come to a conclusion. In the case of the USA, there literally is a "smoking gun".

As far as Wetcoaster goes, he really does know more than 99% of the people out there. This is what years of experience in the legal profession provides.
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#295 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:49 PM

I'm not sure where you get this assertion that I "wish" citizens were held responsible for a criminal's act. I'd challenge you to show an example of me doing so, but I know you cannot, so I see no point.

Secondly, I don't believe that I "know more than all of these people", (whomever "all of these people" are) however, I am possessed of enough common sense to look at all of the evidence and come to a conclusion. In the case of the USA, there literally is a "smoking gun".

You know exactly who "all of these people" are, you responded in your previous post with "Americans". You also know who made the Constitution. You're trying to save face for whatever reason, which is unusual since you usually are more shameless about such disrespect.

You don't possess common sense on this issue, you possess an anti-gun stance without any respect for the Constitution itself with countless references to other countries as if the US will adopt a foreign mindset merely because you think they should. Your indignant remarks (as well as a number of others here) about people who buy/own guns is hardly anything akin to sensibility, they are caricatures and jokes, except not funny. So we have 1) lack of respect for the Constitution and the freedom of bearing arms it provides, and 2) **** talking about gun owners -- wonder why they won't see it your way? I don't.

As far as Wetcoaster goes, you can be his cheerleader as much as you want, he also has taken a side against the US Constitution, and has also engaged in similar caricatures of people who prefer to follow the Constitution over Wetcoaster's anti-gun proselytising. The closest thing Americans have to rationality and a bible is the Constitution, and it's done well for the country. The people who are faulting guns, faulting gun owners, faulting the second amendment, faulting the NRA, or better, faulting judges, all have their own irrelevant axe to grind. I think I've addressed these enough now.
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#296 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:57 PM

:frantic:


The absurdity of the post above is beyond the realm of any normal understanding. Countless posts from learned, calm, factual, gun owners and non-gun owners alike refuting and explaining standpoints, expressing opinions and the user still doesn't get it. Or even acknowledge that perhaps each side of this debate may have some valid points. Common sense? Perhaps he needs to check his own personal levels? Yet he feels free to call out others on their lack of 'understanding' and downright bias against the entire gun owning situation.

Why are we all continuing to feed this troll?

He doesn't want to get it, he is going out of his way and making a concerted effort to refuse to answer any question that he doesn't have a personal answer for, not even a made up one and than uses derogatory comments to describe those who have gone the extra mile to try and rebut and debate his opinion.


The American Constitution........apparently if you ain't with every single word written within, yer agin it......that's some real, modern, cogitative thinking beyond hunnerds-of-years-old text that was never meant for the world of the late 1900s and into the 2000s.


The American Constitution........well, one day they can pry his copy of that out of his other cold dead hand........it will have served him and countless other frivolous American gun owners so very well. But he'll still be D.E.A.D. Most likely by bullet or buckshot.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 08 January 2013 - 05:21 PM.

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#297 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:12 PM

I'm not sure where you get this assertion that I "wish" citizens were held responsible for a criminal's act. I'd challenge you to show an example of me doing so, but I know you cannot, so I see no point.

Secondly, I don't believe that I "know more than all of these people", (whomever "all of these people" are) however, I am possessed of enough common sense to look at all of the evidence and come to a conclusion. In the case of the USA, there literally is a "smoking gun".

As far as Wetcoaster goes, he really does know more than 99% of the people out there. This is what years of experience in the legal profession provides.



Knowlegde has much better purposes than self pity and superiority

There is a big difference between knowledge and wisdom , a wise person does not treat those around them with contempt
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#298 Heretic

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

Another link talking about the effects of lead - which is a hazard to firearm owners everywhere:

http://www.utexas.ed.../msds/lead.html


SYMPTOMS OF LEAD POISONING

The following is a partial list of common symptoms of lead poisoning, and symptoms that appear in any individual will vary. Furthermore, a lead level that produces only moderate problems in one individual may prove lethal to another:

  • Loss of memory, and difficulty in concentration. This is frequently the first symptom seen.
  • Fatigue. This can become profound and incapacitating.
  • Irritability and aggressiveness.
  • Loss of sexual interest. Impotence.
  • Insomnia. (Which greatly complicates the fatigue.)
  • Depression.
  • Headaches.
  • Neurological symptoms, such as hand twitching.
  • Encephalopathy. This is the medical term for major brain dysfunction (actually, all of the above are symptoms of central nervous system problems). This can manifest itself as loss of function or paralysis in a limb, confusion, disorientation, loss of coordination, or the symptoms of several forms of insanity. (Lead poisoning probably contributed to the insanity of several of the Roman Ceasars, and contributed to the fall of the empire. The Roman upper classes boiled their wine in lead-lined pots. This sweetened the wine, and made it resistant to souring by yeast. Bones recovered from graves of Roman nobility have shown phenomenal lead contents.)
  • Elevated blood pressure.
  • Digestive difficulties and abdominal pains.
  • Weight loss.
  • Joint pains, particularly in the joints of the long bones, like the wrists.
  • Anemia.
  • In women, menstrual irregularity and decreased fertility. (Again, lead poisoning may have been responsible for the documented dramatic decrease in fertility among the Roman nobility and upper classes.)
  • Kidney damage and/or liver damage.
  • Sore or bleeding gums around the margin of the gum and tooth.
  • In children, retarded intellectual development, behavioral problems, as well as most of the other problems listed above.

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#299 dudeone

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:34 PM

State Rep. DebraLee Hovey to Gabby Giffords: Stay Out


by RICK GREEN on JANUARY 6, 2013 ·


http://courantblogs....fords-stay-out/


State Rep. DebraLee Hovey, who represents Newtown and Monroe, posted this on her public FB page. From Florida. (Note: Hovey removed the post from her public Facebook page on Sunday afternoon).

Giffords visited local officials and Sandy Hook families Friday in meetings that were closed to the press.



Posted Image



She had more to say in this comment thread:




Posted Image

I wonder how her colleagues in the General Assembly feel about this sentiment.
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#300 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:11 AM

You know exactly who "all of these people" are, you responded in your previous post with "Americans". You also know who made the Constitution. You're trying to save face for whatever reason, which is unusual since you usually are more shameless about such disrespect.

Oh, you mean all those people who think more guns equals a safer society? Well then yes, I do think I know more than they do. The amount of firearms in the US, coupled with the amount of firearm-related deaths is all the proof anyone with an ounce of common sense should need.

However, you mistake my use of the term "Americans". I don't use it in reference to all Americans. There are certainly some Americans capable of coherent thought.

I use the term to indicate that the backwards thinking that you, Electro Rock and the rest of the NRA shills put forth is exclusive to Americans. Nowhere else in the civilized world will you find people that delusional

You don't possess common sense on this issue, you possess an anti-gun stance without any respect for the Constitution itself with countless references to other countries as if the US will adopt a foreign mindset merely because you think they should. Your indignant remarks (as well as a number of others here) about people who buy/own guns is hardly anything akin to sensibility, they are caricatures and jokes, except not funny. So we have 1) lack of respect for the Constitution and the freedom of bearing arms it provides, and 2) **** talking about gun owners -- wonder why they won't see it your way? I don't.

I possess nothing but common sense. In fact, I'd argue that a desire to limit the amount of and potential for harm of said weapons is the epitome of common sense. But then again, I believe in a safer society, not one where people are granted "rights" that they don't have to earn, or prove they deserve.

And why should I have any respect for a document written in a foreign country over 200 years ago, by people who couldn't possibly have realized the damage it would cause? FTR, I have nothing against the US Constitution, just the way that the US has chosen to interpret the 2nd Amendment.

As far as Wetcoaster goes, you can be his cheerleader as much as you want, he also has taken a side against the US Constitution, and has also engaged in similar caricatures of people who prefer to follow the Constitution over Wetcoaster's anti-gun proselytising. The closest thing Americans have to rationality and a bible is the Constitution, and it's done well for the country. The people who are faulting guns, faulting gun owners, faulting the second amendment, faulting the NRA, or better, faulting judges, all have their own irrelevant axe to grind. I think I've addressed these enough now.

The thing about "cheerleading" as you put it, it's not something I do often, usually because I'm confident in my own knowledge on most subjects that I comment on. When I come across a thread that is outside my realm of experience, I tend not to post at all.

However, no matter how much I feel I know about a certain subject, I will almost always defer to someone with professional knowledge on a subject. AFAIK, CDC has only one resident lawyer and I would consider it pretty ridiculous for myself, or any other layman to attempt to argue legal matters with him. YMMV

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 09 January 2013 - 12:13 AM.

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