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US gun owners show off their Christmas 'toys'


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#91 Electro Rock

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

You can get a CCW permit almost anywhere, even in Canada, but in places like Cali (or Canada) it basically means that you've been thoroughly vetted by the police, and you have some political pull.

I doubt either was the case with the Sacremento shooter.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

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#92 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:24 AM

You can get a CCW permit almost anywhere, even in Canada, but in places like Cali (or Canada) it basically means that you've been thoroughly vetted by the police, and you have some political pull.

I doubt either was the case with the Sacremento shooter.

That is incorrect according to my prosecutor friend.

In many counties there is little vetting and CCW permits are pretty much shall issue as noted in the link I provided.
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#93 Electro Rock

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

Maybe they issue them with a lot less restrictions out in the desert counties, but I doubt they're valid in the big urban areas, especially in places like a bar.

Odds are it was a local gang member or thug, not some dude with a CCW who came in from the high desert.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

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#94 inane

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

http://www.nola.com/...eport_firs.html

http://www.newsnet5....-murder-of-2013

#95 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

Maybe they issue them with a lot less restrictions out in the desert counties, but I doubt they're valid in the big urban areas, especially in places like a bar.

Odds are it was a local gang member or thug, not some dude with a CCW who came in from the high desert.

You would be incorrect.

California is a "may-issue" state for permits to carry concealed guns. The willingness of issuing authorities in California ranges from No-Issue in most urban areas to Shall-Issue in rural counties. However, concealed carry permits are valid statewide, regardless of where they were issued. California does not recognize concealed carry permits issued by other states, and non-residents are generally forbidden from obtaining a California concealed carry permit.


According to my friend many people go to a "shall issue" county and obtain the permit.
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#96 Electro Rock

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

I don't know about California, but in certain areas of yhe U.S. CCW permits are valid in name only, as there will be restrictions on how close a CCW holder can approach places like goverment buildings, schools, bars etc, so that in practical terms, the CCW cannot avoid being in a restricted area.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

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#97 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

I don't know about California, but in certain areas of yhe U.S. CCW permits are valid in name only, as there will be restrictions on how close a CCW holder can approach places like goverment buildings, schools, bars etc, so that in practical terms, the CCW cannot avoid being in a restricted area.

In California CCW permits are valid statewide as noted and in shall issue counties restrictions are rare.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 01 January 2013 - 12:05 PM.

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#98 Electro Rock

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:18 PM

In California CCW permits are valid statewide as noted and in shall issue counties restrictions are rare.


What about may and no-issue counties?

I don't know how well you know California but trust me when I say that the big coastal cities are vastly different in tone and culture compared to the small farming and desert communities you find inland.

Anyways, I really doubt this was a CCW holder.
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#99 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

People on this forum make me sick.

They have no idea about guns and make ignorant comments on the matter. Who cares that those guns are called "assault rifles" they are still semi automatic.

I can go purchase a mini 14 hunting rifle, semi automatic firing .223 rounds the exact same bullet as that ar-15 and shoot it just as fast. Also with full metal jacket bullets that will punch through a Bullet proof vest.

How about an sks firing ak-47 rounds with 30 shot clips.

That's just 2 "hunting" rifles I can go buy at any gun store in BC.

So city slickers that have ZERO idea about guns and believe everything they read should stop commenting. And also saying they have no purpose but to kill people is a retarded statement.

People like to target shoot, go out to the range and blast off a few hundred rounds, it's awesome but it doesn't mean we are red necks who want to kill people.

All the guns used in the recent shootings in the states might not be purchasable in Canada, but anyone with a gun licence can buy a gun that will do as much, or more damage.

I own lots of guns and have lots of ammo, semi auto, shotguns etc. does that mean I'm going to go on a rampage? Nope, it just means I like to hunt and have fun like 95% of people who hve guns.



I too shoot that the range with my handguns, and my shotgun. They are always under lock n' key in order to comply with the firearms regulations. You have to remember that folks who do not own firearms might have a different view than you might.
Considering the excellent choices in rifles and shotguns, there's a difference between hunting with an SKS or SVT-40 which is semi-auto, and going hunting with an AK-47 which can go full auto.

If you go to a court in Canada and you used a firearm you pretty much know you're not going to get much sympathy from the judge or even the jury. The bright side is our courts are so weak they will probably still give you a slap on the wrist.

The Newtown murders were done by a Glock and Sig pistols with what sounded like extended magazines. Considering in the US you can get magazines with 17 or even more capacity, all you need is 6 magazines and you can shoot 102 rounds.

I don't question people hunting with semi's. I do question people who seem to need tons of firepower to get the job done. Or the folks that lob claymore's into ponds in the US and detonate them to kill a whole flock of ducks. Where's the sport in that?

By the way the SKS is supposed to be pinned to 5 rounds as does a Ruger Mini-14. And all the ones I've seen in stores in BC are that way. Why do you have a 30 round magazine? Are you one of the lucky ones who has a prohibited license? Or are you giving an example that a determined individual could probably pick up a AK47 magazine from the US?
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#100 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

The Newtown murders were done by a Glock and Sig pistols with what sounded like extended magazines. Considering in the US you can get magazines with 17 or even more capacity, all you need is 6 magazines and you can shoot 102 rounds.

That was the preliminary report but it has now been reported he was using the Bushmaster .223 semi auto rifle with large capacity magazines.

Two handguns and a rifle were recovered at the scene of the massacre, but reports have indicated that Lanza used the .223 semi-automatic rifle to shoot most, if not all, of his victims, including his mother, Nancy Lanza, to whom the gun was apparently registered. On Saturday, Connecticut’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said that each of the victims had received multiple gunshot wounds.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/12/bushmaster_ar15_sandy_hook_adam_lanza.php


When 20-year-old Adam Lanza walked into the Sandy Hook Elementary School on Dec. 14, he carried two handguns, several hundred rounds of ammunition and a rifle that has become a flashpoint in the ongoing debate over gun rights in America.


Police say that the 20 children and six adults killed at the school were murdered with a .223 caliber Bushmaster AR-15 rifle.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/12/19/bushmaster-223-weapon-used-in-newtown-shooting-a-lightning-rod-in-gun-debate/#ixzz2GkxChul2
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#101 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

That was the preliminary report but it has now been reported he was using the Bushmaster .223 semi auto rifle with large capacity magazines.

Two handguns and a rifle were recovered at the scene of the massacre, but reports have indicated that Lanza used the .223 semi-automatic rifle to shoot most, if not all, of his victims, including his mother, Nancy Lanza, to whom the gun was apparently registered. On Saturday, Connecticut’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said that each of the victims had received multiple gunshot wounds.

http://tpmmuckraker...._adam_lanza.php



When 20-year-old Adam Lanza walked into the Sandy Hook Elementary School on Dec. 14, he carried two handguns, several hundred rounds of ammunition and a rifle that has become a flashpoint in the ongoing debate over gun rights in America.


Police say that the 20 children and six adults killed at the school were murdered with a .223 caliber Bushmaster AR-15 rifle.

http://newsfeed.time.../#ixzz2GkxChul2



My apologies. But it points out that even semi-auto pistols can be deadly and shoot lots of rounds, almost as much as an AR-15.
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#102 Electro Rock

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

The reports cited are old, it has since become unclear whether the AR-15 was actually used or not.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

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#103 inane

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

This is the kind of stupid debate we should not be dragged down to. Who cares what type of gun was used? Could it fire rapidly ie without reloading? Yes? Then it is totally unnecessary to own that weapon.

#104 canadiancon

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:12 PM

I too shoot that the range with my handguns, and my shotgun. They are always under lock n' key in order to comply with the firearms regulations. You have to remember that folks who do not own firearms might have a different view than you might.
Considering the excellent choices in rifles and shotguns, there's a difference between hunting with an SKS or SVT-40 which is semi-auto, and going hunting with an AK-47 which can go full auto.

If you go to a court in Canada and you used a firearm you pretty much know you're not going to get much sympathy from the judge or even the jury. The bright side is our courts are so weak they will probably still give you a slap on the wrist.

The Newtown murders were done by a Glock and Sig pistols with what sounded like extended magazines. Considering in the US you can get magazines with 17 or even more capacity, all you need is 6 magazines and you can shoot 102 rounds.

I don't question people hunting with semi's. I do question people who seem to need tons of firepower to get the job done. Or the folks that lob claymore's into ponds in the US and detonate them to kill a whole flock of ducks. Where's the sport in that?

By the way the SKS is supposed to be pinned to 5 rounds as does a Ruger Mini-14. And all the ones I've seen in stores in BC are that way. Why do you have a 30 round magazine? Are you one of the lucky ones who has a prohibited license? Or are you giving an example that a determined individual could probably pick up a AK47 magazine from the US?


No i dont have a prohibited license. The ones pinned at 5 rounds can take about 30 seconds to remove the pin and now you have a 30 shot clip. It's not legal but it is very easy to do.

I prefer bolt action myself when hunting big game.

I use a semi auto .22 for grouse just for ease as they are usually in groups.

What bothers me is people make comments on topics with their sources being the media.

Guns will never be restricted or banned. People will always find a way to kill other people of they want to.


#105 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:27 PM

Guns will never be restricted or banned. People will always find a way to kill other people of they want to.

Why make it easy for someone like Adam Lanza with easily available high powered semi-automatic weapons and large capacity magazines?

Much harder to kill numbers with a knife, even school children as we saw at the time of the Newtown massacre in an incident in China. Lots of injuries but no fatalities.


A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for classes, police say, the latest in a series of attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens.


The attack in the Henan province village of Chengping happened shortly before 8am local time on Friday, said a police officer from Guangshan county, where the village is located.


Min Yingjun, a 36-year-old villager, was taken into police custody, said the officer, who declined to give her name, as is customary among Chinese civil servants.


A Guangshan county hospital administrator said the man first attacked an elderly woman, then pupils, before security guards subdued him. Guards have been posted across China following a spate of school attacks in recent years. The administrator said there were no deaths among the nine children admitted, although two who were badly injured had been transferred to better-equipped hospitals outside the county.


A doctor at Guangshan's hospital of traditional Chinese medicine said seven pupils had been admitted, but that none were seriously injured. Neither the hospital administrator nor the doctor would give his name.


It was not clear how old the injured children were, but Chinese primary school pupils are generally aged between six and 11.


A notice posted on the Guangshan county government's website confirmed the number of injured and said an emergency response team had been set up to investigate the attacks.


To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#106 etsen3

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:56 PM

Don't have a problem with people owning guns, but I have a problem with the wrong people owning guns. I agree that in the States it can be way too easy for guns to fall into the wrong hands. However as long as these people are mentally stable, properly trained, and not criminals then I have no problem with it.

Edited by etsen3, 01 January 2013 - 02:57 PM.


#107 Wesker

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:00 PM

Sandy Hook was a staged event. It was meant to sway public opinion to support gun control... it wont work.

#108 Electro Rock

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:38 PM

This is the kind of stupid debate we should not be dragged down to. Who cares what type of gun was used? Could it fire rapidly ie without reloading? Yes? Then it is totally unnecessary to own that weapon.


It's an issue because the control freak propaganda machine made it one.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

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#109 inane

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:48 PM

It's an issue because the control freak propaganda machine made it one.


Then why do you perpetuate it?

#110 Tearloch7

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

Sandy Hook was a staged event. It was meant to sway public opinion to support gun control... it wont work.


Kool-aid will rot yer teeth AND yer mind ..

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#111 Perfect From Now On

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

This is the result of a militarized society, as are the mass shootings that occur so much more often in the US.


on a lighter note.....


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Paradise with pines and ice.

#112 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

The Castle Doctrine at work in Minnesota:

A Minnesota man told police he feared two teenagers breaking into his home had a weapon when he shot and killed them on Thanksgiving Day.


Byron Smith, 64, of Little Falls, is now facing murder charges.


Smith admitted to investigators he fired “more shots than (he) needed to.”


And seemed to brag about making “a good, clean finishing shot” when he killed 18-year-old Haile Kifer, after he had already killed 17-year-old Nicholas Brady.


Minnesotans already have the right to defend themselves in their homes, but the case in Little Falls would probably not apply.


It’s already legal to shoot and kill an intruder in your home, or in your yard, or your garage, if you are threatened.

But self-defense becomes murder at a very specific point.


Most states already have self-defense laws based on the Castle Doctrine — “a man’s home is his castle.”


In fact, in Minnesota, you can shoot an intruder — even kill — if you feel threatened with great bodily harm, or if you are trying to prevent a felony.


But you must stop shooting if the threat’s eliminated, even if the intruder is still alive.

That’s called the “duty to retreat.”

http://minnesota.cbs...f-defense-laws/

In this case it seems this fellow had his home all wired for sound and the tapes that led to the shooting deaths of the two teens who broke into his home was introduced during his bail hearing.


Bail lowered for man accused of killing 2 Little Falls teens


Article by: JOY POWELL , Star Tribune Updated: December 18, 2012 - 6:48 AM

In an audio tape, he taunts and curses at the 18-year-old victim, and tells her, "You're dying."



Byron David Smith taunted the teen as she lay dying, shooting her again and again, according to a prosecutor who said an audio recording shows Smith went beyond self-defense in the Thanksgiving Day shootings of two cousins trying to burglarize his home.


"The state will show that this was an ambush, and a murder," prosecutor Todd Kosovich said in a court hearing Monday, recounting the chilling details the recorder captured.


Kosovich also argued for an increase in Smith's $1 million bail, but Judge Douglas Anderson ordered that Smith could be released from jail if he posted $50,000 in cash or a $500,000 bond and met conditions, including surrendering his passport.


Smith, 64, whose friends and relatives say had endured several previous break-ins, turned over the passport to authorities Monday night, but remained in Morrison County Jail as relatives worked to raise the bail money.


He is charged with two counts of second-degree murder in the deaths of Haile Kifer, 18, and her cousin, Nicholas Brady, 17. The teens were apparently trying to break into Smith's red-brick rambler along the Mississippi River when he shot them and then dragged their bodies into a workshop where they remained for more than 24 hours.


Kosovich said that on the day of the killings, Smith had guns within reach as he sat in a chair, between tall bookshelves, facing the basement stairs.


He had unscrewed light bulbs from sockets, save for one above the stairs.


There was a loaded rifle next to him and a loaded .22-caliber revolver strapped to his side.


Search warrants have revealed that Smith, a former security engineer for U.S. embassies, also had a surveillance system that picked up images of Kifer and Brady outside his home. Inside the house police found hours of audiotapes on a digital recorder.


Kosovich said a recording includes the sound of breaking glass, presumably when Brady broke a rear window, crawled in and then went downstairs.


Smith shot Brady three times, telling him, "You're dead," according to the recording. Within 18 seconds, Kosovich said, came the sound of Brady's body being dragged on a tarp to a workshop.


"That's how fast, that's how well equipped he was to deal with the death of Nick Brady," Kosovich said.


Ten minutes after the last shot, as Smith sat in his chair, Kifer's voice can be heard on the tape, calling out "Nick?"


Twelve seconds pass and Kifer begins down the stairs.


"Then we hear the first shot," and the sound of her body falling down the stairs, the prosecutor said.


Smith's rifle jams. The click is audible and Smith is heard saying, "Oh, sorry about that,"


As Kifer moans, Smith switches to the revolver.


After the second shot, Kifer says, "Oh, my God," and on the third shot, "Oh, God."


After the fourth shot, she utters "aw" and Smith says to her: "You're dying."


Now, Kosovich said, she's on the basement floor, "helpless," and Smith calls her "bitch." The sound of Smith dragging her to his workshop is audible and she is heard gasping.


One minute and 15 seconds later, again calling her "bitch," Smith fired a shot beneath her chin and into her cranium, the prosecution contends.


"He shot Haile Kifer three times in the head," Kosovich told the judge. "There's no way that's self-defense."


The prosecutor noted that from the sound of the window breaking to when Brady came downstairs, seven minutes passed during which Smith could have called police.


At that, Smith's older brother, Bruce Smith of California, laughed in the courtroom. The prosecutor also quoted Smith's description of Kifer's death to police: "She gave out the death twitch; it works the same as in a beaver or deer," the prosecutor quoted Smith as saying.


"Oh, my God," one of the teens' family members whispered in the courtroom.


In asking for lower bail, Anderson's attorney, Steve Meshbesher, said Smith is a Little Falls native who retired after 16 years with the Department of Homeland Security in a computer job.


Meshbesher also said Smith had written a memo to the sheriff's office about his Oct. 27 burglary and others in the area. His basement door, on a walkout level, had been kicked in, and a lock broken, and guns, cash and other items stolen.


"He told the police his story because he wanted their assistance and guidance," Meshbesher said, calling Smith a concerned, good citizen.


Kosovich argued that Smith is a danger to the community, noting that "he admitted he sat with the bodies for 24 hours."


A neighbor, William Anderson, contacted the sheriff's office 24 hours after the slayings because Smith called him, asking if he knew a good attorney.


After the hearing, Brady's grandparents, Steve and Bonnie Schaeffel, said the bail should not have been lowered.


"That is not who you want to see walking down the street," Bonnie Schaeffel said.


She doesn't believe the cousins were involved in the earlier burglary at Smith's home, and said they would have deserved legal punishment for breaking in on Thanksgiving.


Instead, she said, they ran into an enraged homeowner who carried out "a vigilante-style murder of children."

http://www.startribu...61.html?refer=y

In Canada even after the recent amendments to the Criminal Code on self defence (The Citizen’s Arrest and Self-Defence Act) it is illegal to employ deadly force in defence of property as noted at the website of PM Harper:

Use of Deadly Force


The use of deadly force is only permitted in very exceptional circumstances — for example, where it is necessary to protect a person from death or grievous bodily harm. The courts have clearly stated that deadly force is never considered reasonable in defence of property alone. The legislative reforms currently being proposed do not make any change to the law relating to deadly force. Courts will therefore continue to make any necessary changes on a case-by-case basis, developing the common law if and where appropriate.

http://www.pm.gc.ca/...dia.asp?id=3966

Edited by Wetcoaster, 01 January 2013 - 06:23 PM.

To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#113 Primus099

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:42 PM

Americans have guns? How fascinating please tell me more, why is this even news

#114 canadiancon

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

The Castle Doctrine at work in Minnesota:

A Minnesota man told police he feared two teenagers breaking into his home had a weapon when he shot and killed them on Thanksgiving Day.


Byron Smith, 64, of Little Falls, is now facing murder charges.


Smith admitted to investigators he fired “more shots than (he) needed to.”


And seemed to brag about making “a good, clean finishing shot” when he killed 18-year-old Haile Kifer, after he had already killed 17-year-old Nicholas Brady.


Minnesotans already have the right to defend themselves in their homes, but the case in Little Falls would probably not apply.


It’s already legal to shoot and kill an intruder in your home, or in your yard, or your garage, if you are threatened.

But self-defense becomes murder at a very specific point.


Most states already have self-defense laws based on the Castle Doctrine — “a man’s home is his castle.”


In fact, in Minnesota, you can shoot an intruder — even kill — if you feel threatened with great bodily harm, or if you are trying to prevent a felony.


But you must stop shooting if the threat’s eliminated, even if the intruder is still alive.

That’s called the “duty to retreat.”

http://minnesota.cbs...f-defense-laws/

In this case it seems this fellow had his home all wired for sound and the tapes that led to the shooting deaths of the two teens who broke into his home was introduced during his bail hearing.


Bail lowered for man accused of killing 2 Little Falls teens


Article by: JOY POWELL , Star Tribune Updated: December 18, 2012 - 6:48 AM

In an audio tape, he taunts and curses at the 18-year-old victim, and tells her, "You're dying."



Byron David Smith taunted the teen as she lay dying, shooting her again and again, according to a prosecutor who said an audio recording shows Smith went beyond self-defense in the Thanksgiving Day shootings of two cousins trying to burglarize his home.


"The state will show that this was an ambush, and a murder," prosecutor Todd Kosovich said in a court hearing Monday, recounting the chilling details the recorder captured.


Kosovich also argued for an increase in Smith's $1 million bail, but Judge Douglas Anderson ordered that Smith could be released from jail if he posted $50,000 in cash or a $500,000 bond and met conditions, including surrendering his passport.


Smith, 64, whose friends and relatives say had endured several previous break-ins, turned over the passport to authorities Monday night, but remained in Morrison County Jail as relatives worked to raise the bail money.


He is charged with two counts of second-degree murder in the deaths of Haile Kifer, 18, and her cousin, Nicholas Brady, 17. The teens were apparently trying to break into Smith's red-brick rambler along the Mississippi River when he shot them and then dragged their bodies into a workshop where they remained for more than 24 hours.


Kosovich said that on the day of the killings, Smith had guns within reach as he sat in a chair, between tall bookshelves, facing the basement stairs.


He had unscrewed light bulbs from sockets, save for one above the stairs.


There was a loaded rifle next to him and a loaded .22-caliber revolver strapped to his side.


Search warrants have revealed that Smith, a former security engineer for U.S. embassies, also had a surveillance system that picked up images of Kifer and Brady outside his home. Inside the house police found hours of audiotapes on a digital recorder.


Kosovich said a recording includes the sound of breaking glass, presumably when Brady broke a rear window, crawled in and then went downstairs.


Smith shot Brady three times, telling him, "You're dead," according to the recording. Within 18 seconds, Kosovich said, came the sound of Brady's body being dragged on a tarp to a workshop.


"That's how fast, that's how well equipped he was to deal with the death of Nick Brady," Kosovich said.


Ten minutes after the last shot, as Smith sat in his chair, Kifer's voice can be heard on the tape, calling out "Nick?"


Twelve seconds pass and Kifer begins down the stairs.


"Then we hear the first shot," and the sound of her body falling down the stairs, the prosecutor said.


Smith's rifle jams. The click is audible and Smith is heard saying, "Oh, sorry about that,"


As Kifer moans, Smith switches to the revolver.


After the second shot, Kifer says, "Oh, my God," and on the third shot, "Oh, God."


After the fourth shot, she utters "aw" and Smith says to her: "You're dying."


Now, Kosovich said, she's on the basement floor, "helpless," and Smith calls her "bitch." The sound of Smith dragging her to his workshop is audible and she is heard gasping.


One minute and 15 seconds later, again calling her "bitch," Smith fired a shot beneath her chin and into her cranium, the prosecution contends.


"He shot Haile Kifer three times in the head," Kosovich told the judge. "There's no way that's self-defense."


The prosecutor noted that from the sound of the window breaking to when Brady came downstairs, seven minutes passed during which Smith could have called police.


At that, Smith's older brother, Bruce Smith of California, laughed in the courtroom. The prosecutor also quoted Smith's description of Kifer's death to police: "She gave out the death twitch; it works the same as in a beaver or deer," the prosecutor quoted Smith as saying.


"Oh, my God," one of the teens' family members whispered in the courtroom.


In asking for lower bail, Anderson's attorney, Steve Meshbesher, said Smith is a Little Falls native who retired after 16 years with the Department of Homeland Security in a computer job.


Meshbesher also said Smith had written a memo to the sheriff's office about his Oct. 27 burglary and others in the area. His basement door, on a walkout level, had been kicked in, and a lock broken, and guns, cash and other items stolen.


"He told the police his story because he wanted their assistance and guidance," Meshbesher said, calling Smith a concerned, good citizen.


Kosovich argued that Smith is a danger to the community, noting that "he admitted he sat with the bodies for 24 hours."


A neighbor, William Anderson, contacted the sheriff's office 24 hours after the slayings because Smith called him, asking if he knew a good attorney.


After the hearing, Brady's grandparents, Steve and Bonnie Schaeffel, said the bail should not have been lowered.


"That is not who you want to see walking down the street," Bonnie Schaeffel said.


She doesn't believe the cousins were involved in the earlier burglary at Smith's home, and said they would have deserved legal punishment for breaking in on Thanksgiving.


Instead, she said, they ran into an enraged homeowner who carried out "a vigilante-style murder of children."

http://www.startribu...61.html?refer=y

In Canada even after the recent amendments to the Criminal Code on self defence (The Citizen’s Arrest and Self-Defence Act) it is illegal to employ deadly force in defence of property as noted at the website of PM Harper:

Use of Deadly Force


The use of deadly force is only permitted in very exceptional circumstances — for example, where it is necessary to protect a person from death or grievous bodily harm. The courts have clearly stated that deadly force is never considered reasonable in defence of property alone. The legislative reforms currently being proposed do not make any change to the law relating to deadly force. Courts will therefore continue to make any necessary changes on a case-by-case basis, developing the common law if and where appropriate.

http://www.pm.gc.ca/...dia.asp?id=3966


This is a good case of " they shouldn't have been there" sure this guy went over board, but if they didn't break into his house in the first place, they wouldn't have been shot.

Anyone who comes into my house uninvited better be able to run faster then 1100 feet per second.


#115 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:40 PM

Americans have guns? How fascinating please tell me more, why is this even news

Perhaps because of the number of firearms out in the hands of the average 'Murican and the damage wrought by said firearms?

Guns in homes can increase risk of death and firearm-related violence

Having a gun at home not only increases the risk of harm to one's self and family, but also carries high costs to society, concludes an article in the February Southern Medical Journal, official journal of the Southern Medical Association. The journal is published by Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, a part of Wolters Kluwer Health, a leading provider of information and business intelligence for students, professionals, and institutions in medicine, nursing, allied health, and pharmacy.


"Firearm-related violence vastly increases expenditures for health care, services for the disabled, insurance, and our criminal justice system," writes Dr. Steven Lippmann of University of Louisville School of Medicine, and colleagues. "The bills are paid by taxpayers and those who buy insurance."


Guns at Home Increase Dangers, Not Safety


Based on a review of the available scientific data, Dr. Lippmann and co-authors conclude that the dangers of having a gun at home far outweigh the safety benefits. Research shows that access to guns greatly increases the risk of death and firearm-related violence. A gun in the home is twelve times more likely to result in the death of a household member or visitor than an intruder.


The most common cause of deaths occurring at homes where guns are present, by far, is suicide. Many of these self-inflicted gunshot wounds appear to be impulsive acts by people without previous evidence of mental illness. Guns in the home are also associated with a fivefold increase in the rate of intimate partner homicide, as well as an increased risk of injuries and death to children.


Gun-related violence also has psychological and other consequences for survivors—especially children. Dr. Lippmann and colleagues point out that easy access to guns also enables tragic episodes like the mass killings at Virginia Tech University, in which a background check might have prevented the shooter from obtaining a weapon. Such "tragically recurrent" events are in addition to gun deaths related to criminal activities, gang violence, interpersonal disagreements, and other incidents.


Gun Violence Carries High Costs for Society

Dr. Lippmann and colleagues cite research showing the massive economic consequences of firearm violence. Medical care for gunshot victims in the United States is up to $4 billion per year. Including indirect costs such as disability and unemployment, the costs may total up to $100 billion. In the authors' city of Louisville, expenses for uninsured gun-injury victims alone exceed the money allotted for indigent medical care costs for the entire community.


"Taxpayers often bear a large percentage of these financial burdens," according to the authors. Other costs show up in the form of increased insurance premiums. Gun violence costs the U.S. criminal justice system approximately $2.4 billion per year—nearly equal to all other crimes put together.


Despite these high costs, "[F]irearms remain so much a part of our culture that gun-related violence and legal expenses are routinely accepted as a normal part of our life," Dr. Lippmann and colleagues write. "Politically, gun control remains unpopular, but raising awareness among doctors about the relationship between firearms, the rates of violence, and expenses involved may have an impact on their thinking."


In publishing the review, the editors of SMJ hope to promote a conversation within the medical profession about the health, economic, and social consequences of guns in the United States. In an editorial in the same issue, Editor-in-Chief Dr. Ronald C. Hamdy writes, "Our goal…is to provide solid, scientific evidence regarding these often controversial topics, in an attempt to avoid the personal and emotional quagmire which is so easily adopted in issues such as these." The SMJ website features a podcast in which Dr. Lippmann discusses his findings.


Source: Southern Medical Association

http://www.news-medi...d-violence.aspx
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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#116 Common sense

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:43 PM

Americans have guns? How fascinating please tell me more, why is this even news


Because this is getting as sensationalized as it can get, especially with the 24/7 media machine. When some bomb goes off in Iraq or Syria or wherever there's a war, look for everyone to shut up about guns and talk about US-bad, other countries-good.

#117 Wetcoaster

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:47 PM

This is a good case of " they shouldn't have been there" sure this guy went over board, but if they didn't break into his house in the first place, they wouldn't have been shot.

Anyone who comes into my house uninvited better be able to run faster then 1100 feet per second.

Since when is property more important than a life (or two), even the life of a teen burglar?

And you will be facing murder charges if you did so.
To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#118 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

Happy new year!

http://sacramento.cb...old-sacramento/


Hey, just a proud American exercising his constitutional "rights"....

Sandy Hook was a staged event. It was meant to sway public opinion to support gun control... it wont work.


...and here I was thinking that you only come here to say moronic things during Canada-USA hockey games...
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#119 canadiancon

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:57 PM

Since when is property more important than a life (or two), even the life of a teen burglar?

And you will be facing murder charges if you did so.


Why should someone who breaks into your home deserve rights? How am I or anyone supposed to know what someone is going to so when they kick my door in? Am I supposed to call the police and wait for them while the intruder kills my family?

If someone comes in my house with the intent to hurt my family, ill take my chances with a jury.

#120 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:57 PM

Because this is getting as sensationalized as it can get, especially with the 24/7 media machine. When some bomb goes off in Iraq or Syria or wherever there's a war, look for everyone to shut up about guns and talk about US-bad, other countries-good.


I don't see any reason to wait.... the reaction from a lot of Americans (including a few in this thread) after Sandy Hook was more than enough for any person with a modicum intelligence and empathy.
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!




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