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#181 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

Who decides what types?

It shouldn't be political control freaks or people ignorant about guns.

If it wasn't them, guns would be left alone, and perhaps in the US getting down to the real culprit behind violence and murder might gain some traction for a change.
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#182 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:38 PM

Who decides what types?

It shouldn't be political control freaks or people ignorant about guns.


I'm not sure what you mean by "ignorant about guns", but you don't have to be a gun expert to see that a weapon that can be fired a dozen or more times without reloading, is more than what is required for hunting, or protection from this ubiquitous break-in artist we keep hearing about, who means to do harm to you and yours.

One man's "political control freak" is another man's reasonable thinker....
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#183 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:40 PM

If it wasn't them, guns would be left alone, and perhaps in the US getting down to the real culprit behind violence and murder might gain some traction for a change.


Sorry, I keep forgetting....who (or what) is the "real" culprit again?
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#184 Lockhart

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

Perhaps happiness is a warm gun??

According to John Lennon, the title came from the cover of a gun magazine that producer George Martin showed him: "I think he showed me a cover of a magazine that said 'Happiness Is a Warm Gun.' It was a gun magazine. I just thought it was a fantastic, insane thing to say. A warm gun means you just shot something."

Somewhat ironic, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTU2Y0VFH0E


He was talking about heroin
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#185 Wetcoaster

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

How many guns are there in this country though, 7 million or so? that's a very small percentage

That is only the ones reported stolen.

According to reports (and police officers I know) many more are stolen but because the firearms were not stored properly, a report is not made. The reason is if a person reports an improperly stored firearm stolen then charges could be laid.
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#186 Wetcoaster

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

He was talking about heroin

Not according to an interview Lennon gave.
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#187 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:10 PM

Sorry, I keep forgetting....who (or what) is the "real" culprit again?

In the case of Americans and violence? Or with you and not reading the many responses where I've clearly stated more needs to be figured out about what's behind it? I keep forgetting..
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#188 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

In the case of Americans and violence? Or with you and not reading the many responses where I've clearly stated more needs to be figured out about what's behind it? I keep forgetting..


Well, that's a pretty convoluted answer. It appears that you're saying you don't know what the reason is, but it isn't guns. Is that about it?
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#189 Tearloch7

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

Well, that's a pretty convoluted answer. It appears that you're saying you don't know what the reason is, but it isn't guns. Is that about it?


Trying to get an answer from the Z-man is like trying to get blood from a turnip .. I admire your doggedness tho ..
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#190 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:54 PM

Well, that's a pretty convoluted answer. It appears that you're saying you don't know what the reason is, but it isn't guns. Is that about it?

Guns are systematically blamed by gun control / anti-gun nuts each and every time this happens in the US. Gun control has been tried, gun bans have been tried, assault weapon bans have been tried. It doesn't stop murders, it doesn't stop access to guns by criminals. It's not worked.

I'd suggest another approach but some people are still stuck on the same cursory and hackneyed approach to a more complex problem.

The solution is doing more research, getting to the bottom of the cause of American violence and murder, finding better ways to detect and prevent these occurrences. Right now it's an unknown, so more information is required. So long as the mind boggling "ban/regulate teh gunz" knee-jerk reaction is prominently occupying the headlines and thus opinions by the masses, no solution can take place.

Edited by zaibatsu, 02 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.

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#191 Down by the River

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:04 PM

Guns are systematically blamed by gun control / anti-gun nuts each and every time this happens in the US. Gun control has been tried, gun bans have been tried, assault weapon bans have been tried. It doesn't stop murders, it doesn't stop access to guns by criminals. It's not worked.

I'd suggest another approach but some people are still stuck on the same cursory and hackneyed approach to a more complex problem.

The solution is doing more research, getting to the bottom of the cause of American violence and murder, finding better ways to detect and prevent these occurrences. Right now it's an unknown.


Except where the research provides overwhelming evidence that gun control policies did work.....


gun violence was less likely in states with more college graduates and stronger knowledge-based economies. Gun violence was also higher in states that tend to vote Republican.


Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).



I don't know how many times I've cited this link to people like yourself. Most of the time the research is just ignored. I expect the same from you, but it would serve your own argument well if you could respond to and refute such statistics.

http://www.theatlant...oCSc9gDE.mailto


Would love to see you provide some actual research (i.e. empirical studies by people who aren't yourself) to support these 'opinions' that you have.

Edited by Down by the River, 02 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.

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#192 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:26 PM

Except where the research provides overwhelming evidence that gun control policies did work.....

I don't know how many times I've cited this link to people like yourself. Most of the time the research is just ignored. I expect the same from you, but it would serve your own argument well if you could respond to and refute such statistics.

http://www.theatlant...oCSc9gDE.mailto


Would love to see you provide some actual research (i.e. empirical studies by people who aren't yourself) to support these 'opinions' that you have.

I already have in another topic:

Research showing at best minimal, but likely no effect resulting from the federal assault weapons ban (the most popular "solution" touted on the forums):
https://www.ncjrs.go...ants/204431.pdf

Research showing more guns, less crime:
http://www.sciencedi...14481889800012X

I don't know how many times I've cited links like this to people like yourself, but I plan on it being ignored.

Gun control laws and bans don't show anything, other than the very distinct ability to reduce law abiding people's ability to defend themselves.

Gun control, as in, specific weapon bans, magazine capacity reductions, and all-out bans, do not work in the US. Time to move on from the schtick. This is the last time I'm going to copy/paste the same sources in the same debate. Others can kindly refer them here.

Edited by zaibatsu, 02 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.

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#193 Down by the River

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:39 PM

I already have in another topic:

Research showing at best minimal, but likely no effect resulting from the federal assault weapons ban (the most popular "solution" touted on the forums):
https://www.ncjrs.go...ants/204431.pdf

Research showing more guns, less crime:
http://www.sciencedi...14481889800012X


I don't know how many times I've cited links like this to people like yourself, but I plan on it being ignored.

Gun control laws and bans don't show anything, other than the very distinct ability to reduce law abiding people's ability to defend themselves.


As the actual study states, the methodology involved in the study you support was extremely flawed.

Now I remember you, you're the one who does not understand cause-effect relationships:

http://forum.canucks...1#entry11015241

In your assault weapon study, only approximately 2% of all gun crimes involve such weapons, meaning that it is pretty difficult to reduce crime rates when you focus on such a small proportion of the overall rate.


EDIT: From the study you cited:

Following implementation of the ban, the share of gun crimes involving AWs
declined by 17%
to 72% across the localities examined for this study (Baltimore,
Miami, Milwaukee, Boston, St. Louis, and Anchorage), based on data covering all
or portions of the 1995-2003 post-ban period. This is consistent with patterns
found in national data on guns recovered by police and reported to ATF.


EDIT: Moreover, the reason there was a less than desired effect of the ban was because the ban also did not cover large capacity magazines that are held in handguns. So, the reason the ban was not as successful as previously described was because the ban should have also cracked down on this type of firearm, the same type of firearm many have argued should not exist.....for example the state senators described in previous posts who wanted to get rid of handguns with large capacity magazines.

As the study also suggests, because some of the older version firearms were exempt from the ban, the effects of the law would occur gradually

The few available studies suggest that
attacks with semiautomatics – including AWs and other semiautomatics equipped
with LCMs – result in more shots fired, more persons hit, and more wounds
inflicted per victim than do attacks with other firearms
.



Indeed, AWs or other semiautomatics with LCMs were involved in 6, or 40%, of
15 mass shooting incidents occurring between 1984 and 1993 in which six or more
persons were killed or a total of 12 or more were wounded (Kleck, 1997, pp.124-126,
144).


So, despite assault weapons representing only 2% of total gun crime, they still manage to represent 40% of mass shootings. Not a majority (obviously), but still the proportion dramatically increases. As we can see from the quote bolded above, such firearms facilitate a greater number of shots fired and a greater number of wounds inflicted per victim than with other firearms.

Did you even read this study beyond the abstract? Are you honestly this ???? thick that you can't even read the research that you actually cite? You're just stupid.

Edited by Down by the River, 02 January 2013 - 06:53 PM.

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#194 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:44 PM

As the actual study states, the methodology involved in the study you support was extremely flawed.

Now I remember you, you're the one who does not understand cause-effect relationships:

http://forum.canucks...1#entry11015241

In your assault weapon study, only approximately 2% of all gun crimes involve such weapons, meaning that it is pretty difficult to reduce crime rates when you focus on such a small proportion of the overall rate.


EDIT: From the study you cited:

Despite it being difficult to reduce crime rates by focusing on such an extremely small problem, what is it you think encompasses most of the "solutions" provided both on these forums and coincidentally in the media, hmm?

There is indeed a problem with cause-effect relationships, a distinct one is the effect the media has on determining people's opinions on a given subject.

Not a majority (obviously), but still the proportion dramatically increases. As we can see from the quote bolded above, such firearms facilitate a greater number of shots fired and a greater number of wounds inflicted per victim than with other firearms.

Did you even read this study beyond the abstract? Are you honestly this ???? thick that you can't even read the research that you actually cite? You're just stupid.


LOL. Crime rate dramatically increases with assault weapon bans because assault weapons inflict more damage per victims than with other firearms? Please don't call me stupid and insinuate this in the very same paragraph.

Funny how the people who call me the most names are the ones who make the worst arguments. :lol:

Edited by zaibatsu, 02 January 2013 - 06:59 PM.

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#195 kazin!

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

Go tell them I own a gun, and I have no mental health illnesses. I'll stress this more (and in caps) - NO MENTAL HEALTH ILLNESSES.


Yes, because Asperger's (or anything on the Autism Spectrum) will cause someone to go shoot up a school...
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#196 canadiancon

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:17 PM

Yes I've heard of it, just like I've heard of people being killed by sharks or vending machines. So what?

Maybe your situation is safe and sound, but try a quick Google on 'accidental' shooting or similar and you'll find a number of hits I'm sure.

The whole safe and sound thing doesn't really make sense either though cause if the point is defense against intruder, and you need to get the key, unlock it and load it, well, seems like that would take longer than a crazed rapist would likely give you.


And that is where you are wrong. It takes about 5 seconds to unlock my safe and grab a gun. No one could even sprint through my house and make it to the basement to my room, so someone in the dark trying to be quiet with a German Shepard trying to eat them wouldn't stand a chance.
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#197 canadiancon

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:21 PM

Double post

Edited by canadiancon, 03 January 2013 - 03:13 AM.

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#198 luineul

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:19 AM

Zaibatsu, would you enlighten me and show me how tougher gun control in the past has failed, in the US?

And that is where you are wrong. It takes about 5 seconds to unlock my safe and grab a gun. No one could even sprint through my house and make it to the basement to my room, so someone in the dark trying to be quiet with a German Shepard trying to eat them wouldn't stand a chance.


I honestly don't think most gun owners are as responsible as you are. That's enough of a reason to implement tougher gun control in the US, imo. Is there anything that is terribly wrong about not being able to possess guns at home? What about imposing a maximum # of firearms at a home?

It's extremely bizarre that there are approx. 88 firearms for every 100 people in the US. That is just completely unnecessary, and there is no way each and every one of those guns are being stored safely 100% of the time. I wouldn't even bet that 50% are safely being stores. People can't even be trusted to brush their teeth every night, let alone every morning as well like they should... This is not something you can just brush off and say, "Oh, well, I am totally responsible, so everyone else can be trusted to be responsible too!"
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#199 inane

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:21 AM

And that is where you are wrong. It takes about 5 seconds to unlock my safe and grab a gun. No one could even sprint through my house and make it to the basement to my room, so someone in the dark trying to be quiet with a German Shepard trying to eat them wouldn't stand a chance.


Man I just feel sad for you guys.. So afraid.
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#200 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

The solution is doing more research, getting to the bottom of the cause of American violence and murder, finding better ways to detect and prevent these occurrences. Right now it's an unknown, so more information is required.



It may be "unknown", but only by people such as yourself. The fact is, restrictions on certain types of weapons has worked all over the world. The evidence has been posted in many threads, since Newtown.

You seem to keep clinging to this idea that people are different in the US and that "research" needs to be done to find out what this fundamental difference is.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is able to see the obvious answer: That the US has a lot more guns than the rest of us and they make it much easier for people to get their hands on them.

Americans aren't crazier, nor angrier than other nationalities. However, this continued resistance to common sense limitations on weapons which are not necessary for hunting or personal protection, shows that they are certainly in denial.
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#201 canadiancon

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

Man I just feel sad for you guys.. So afraid.


So afraid? So now because my room is in the basement and I have a German Shepard, who is an awesome family dog and I have guns to hunt and target practice, which are in a locked safe that can be accessed easily, this all makes me so afraid?

[EDIT]

But also just the other day 4 people broke into a house around me, all of them had weapons, including a gun. The home owner was taken to hospital.

Just because you think we live in a perfect world and nothing could ever Happen doesn't mean I have to, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm afraid of everything.

I honesty feel sorry for you, if you think nothing could ever happen to you.

i personaly have had to deal with 3 break ins in various places. Take a guess on what police response time is 15 km out of town.

Edited by SN -Admin, 03 January 2013 - 02:38 PM.
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#202 luineul

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

It may be "unknown", but only by people such as yourself. The fact is, restrictions on certain types of weapons has worked all over the world. The evidence has been posted in many threads, since Newtown.

You seem to keep clinging to this idea that people are different in the US and that "research" needs to be done to find out what this fundamental difference is.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is able to see the obvious answer: That the US has a lot more guns than the rest of us and they make it much easier for people to get their hands on them.

Americans aren't crazier, nor angrier than other nationalities. However, this continued resistance to common sense limitations on weapons which are not necessary for hunting or personal protection, shows that they are certainly in denial.


Japan is a country full of people who do crazy things, yet gun violence has basically been eradicated.

http://www.theatlant...-deaths/260189/

It's amazing. Even if the numbers aren't 100% accurate and all incidents of gun violence haven't been reported, Japan is without a doubt way down the list for violent crime involving guns.
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#203 inane

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:17 PM

So afraid? So now because my room is in the basement and I have a German Shepard, who is an awesome family dog and I have guns to hunt and target practice, which are in a locked safe that can be accessed easily, this all makes me so afraid?

I'm sick of your comments, you are truly retarded and have no idea what your even typing. What's the harm in having a little bit of security? All it takes is one time that's it. Sure it may never happen, I don't loose sleep at night.

But also just the other day 4 people broke into a house around me, all of them had weapons, including a gun. The home owner was taken to hospital.

Just because you think we live in a perfect world and nothing could ever Happen doesn't mean I have to, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm afraid of everything.

I honesty feel sorry for you, if you think nothing could ever happen to you.

i personaly have had to deal with 3 break ins in various places. Take a guess on what police response time is 15 km out of town.


Retarded? Way to scrape the bottom.

Stay classy.
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#204 canadiancon

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

Retarded? Way to scrape the bottom.

Stay classy.


Sorry if retarded hurt your feelings, your either not very smart, or ignorant of the facts.
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#205 inane

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:35 PM

Sorry if retarded hurt your feelings, your either not very smart, or ignorant of the facts.


Not my feelings that need protecting. Just makes you look ignorant using that as an insult.

You also make a lot of assumptions--that my pitying you and your fear was based on owning a german shepherd, or living in a basement? Truly bizarre assumptions.

Also, I don't think we live in a perfect world.
I don't think nothing could ever happen to me.

Your post is so full of of bizarre assumptions I don't even know where to start.
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#206 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:36 PM

It may be "unknown", but only by people such as yourself. The fact is, restrictions on certain types of weapons has worked all over the world. The evidence has been posted in many threads, since Newtown.

You seem to keep clinging to this idea that people are different in the US and that "research" needs to be done to find out what this fundamental difference is.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is able to see the obvious answer: That the US has a lot more guns than the rest of us and they make it much easier for people to get their hands on them.

Americans aren't crazier, nor angrier than other nationalities. However, this continued resistance to common sense limitations on weapons which are not necessary for hunting or personal protection, shows that they are certainly in denial.

Americans have a violence problem in general, it's not limited to murder and shootings, you just wish to focus on this as your demon du jour coincidentally when incidents occur and it's all over the media.

The US is not "the rest of the world". There is a different mindset in the US, there are different laws, different approaches to freedoms. You don't work within a country's constructs by pointing out how "the rest of the world" is. That's a non-starter with US politics.

This is much like dealing with a child with learning disabilities or some other ailing mental problem. You first find out what their problem is, then work with them individually in the manner that helps them learn and function correctly. Going by your approach, you just tell them that the rest of the school is fine and to do things the way the others are. I fully expect in your retort to go "but guns aren't like children therefore *plugs fingers in ears and goes 'la la la la la'*!".

Your approach to a problem ignores past failures of your idea, ignores what is actually in the realm of realistic to change, and demonstrates an inability to recognize the US problem is unique given the circumstances within the country. So until youcan change the way you approach it, you're stuck on the same problem many others on this forum are.. pitching unrealistic ideas and ignoring both the way the US does things, the failed attempts at gun control in the past, and it's own sovereignty.
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#207 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:43 PM

Sorry if retarded hurt your feelings,  your either not very smart, or ignorant of the facts.


First of all, calling someone "retarded" is a personal attack and against the board rules. You haven't been around for very long, so it's possible that you were unaware of this fact. Bear in mind that repeated use of such insults could quite easily result in the end of your short stay here on CDC.

Second, inane and I have have many battles, mostly politically based. I understand that he is a bit like a terrier on certain subjects, but he is anything but retarded. Though he and I have locked horns on many occasions, I have never felt the need to throw a personal insult at him, nor do I recall him doing so to me.

It's entirely possible to carry on a debate with someone who's opinion on a subject differs from yours, without resorting to insults. You just have to try harder.

What I have learned from almost 9 years on this board, is that the longer you are around, the more you find that you have in common with people whom you first thought were at odds with your opinion on virtually everything. This thread is a perfect example: It's one of the few times that inane and I have agreed on something. As time passes, I'm sure there will be others.

Try and stick around for a while and I'm sure you'll discover the same thing.
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#208 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:47 PM

Americans have a violence problem in general, it's not limited to murder and shootings, you just wish to focus on this as your demon du jour coincidentally when incidents occur and it's all over the media.

The US is not "the rest of the world". There is a different mindset in the US, there are different laws, different approaches to freedoms. You don't work within a country's constructs by pointing out how "the rest of the world" is. That's a non-starter with US politics.

This is much like dealing with a child with learning disabilities or some other ailing mental problem. You first find out what their problem is, then work with them individually in the manner that helps them learn and function correctly. Going by your approach, you just tell them that the rest of the school is fine and to do things the way the others are. I fully expect in your retort to go "but guns aren't like children therefore *plugs fingers in ears and goes 'la la la la la'*!".

Your approach to a problem ignores past failures of your idea, ignores what is actually in the realm of realistic to change, and demonstrates an inability to recognize the US problem is unique given the circumstances within the country. So until youcan change the way you approach it, you're stuck on the same problem many others on this forum are.. pitching unrealistic ideas and ignoring both the way the US does things, the failed attempts at gun control in the past, and it's own sovereignty.


Sorry Z, but I don't buy the "we're different here in the states" argument. IMO, it's a cop-out intended to deflect attention away from the dreaded gun-control idea.

You may think that we're stuck on gun control, but the way we see it, you've got your eyes and ears closed and are hoping the whole problem will just go away.

It won't. Not until Americans wake up and admit that guns are the problem.
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#209 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:56 PM

Sorry Z, but I don't buy the "we're different here in the states" argument. IMO, it's a cop-out intended to deflect attention away from the dreaded gun-control idea.

You may think that we're stuck on gun control, but the way we see it, you've got your eyes and ears closed and are hoping the whole problem will just go away.

It won't. Not until Americans wake up and admit that guns are the problem.

Hoping the problem will go away? The problem has been getting better, not worse. Murders have consistently declined throughout the US despite a rising population, increasing amount of guns, and increasingly hyperbolic media making people think the US is a shooting gallery. It's you and a number of others who's taking the media's cues to jump and have government do something about a problem that has already been tried and doesn't work, as well as likely will be tossed out as unconstitutional. Merely because I don't flip out about guns and want to turn the US constitution on it's head has nothing to do with copping out. Mass shootings do suck, the US has a problem with violence still despite it decreasing, but there has been nothing demonstrated by you that necessitates handing over to government more constitutional freedoms.

Edited by zaibatsu, 03 January 2013 - 02:57 PM.

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#210 canadiancon

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

Not my feelings that need protecting. Just makes you look ignorant using that as an insult.

You also make a lot of assumptions--that my pitying you and your fear was based on owning a german shepherd, or living in a basement? Truly bizarre assumptions.

Also, I don't think we live in a perfect world.
I don't think nothing could ever happen to me.

Your post is so full of of bizarre assumptions I don't even know where to start.


My apologies for the personal attack. Guns and gun ownership are a hot topic fr me because almost everyone who tries to talk about the subject have no idea what they are talking about, and just rely on the media.

Also sure I may be assuming but all you have been doing is assuming. You assume because I own firearms and would use them if necessary to protect my family that I'm afraid of the boogeyman. You couldn't be any further from the truth.

I'm pretty sure this is what you said "Man I just feel sad for you guys.. So afraid."

That was after I mentioned my guns were quick to access in my safe, and that my room is in the basement and that I have a German Shepard.

So your ether assuming because of all those things I'm afraid or mostly the owning a firearm part? Again a terrible assumption. You don't know me from Adam, so to assume that I'm a terrified person because I own a few firearms is rediculuse.

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