Multiple Warning Signs Surrounding Zack Kassian

[disisdayear]

I'm confused...last time I looked through the posts on this thread, it was about Kassian and concerns about what his stats are telling (or not telling) about his development...now it covers almost every topic there is about the Canucks.

In keeping with the spirit of taking the original topic on a tangent, anyone else disappointed about the outcome of semi final game between our boys and USA at the WJC? That was some good tending by Gibson. In spite of Subban's size (6'2" 200), did he look small in the nets to anyone? He covers the bottom half of the net really well, but there seems to be a lot of room up top (though the American kids were lasering shots to the top corner).

Now back to Kassian...is there no more talk about him on this thread now?

[Canuck Surfer]

Back on topic; King is provoking the crowd here. I dont believe there should be panic over Kassian. I dont believe he will become a Bertuzzi although I suppose its possible? I do feel he will play a valuable role for us!

In earlier posts I suggested a likely "landing" spot for Kassian's talents is the role and results of a player like Sergio Momesso? When paired with a play maker Ronning, and speedster / scorer Courtnall, Momesso provided the body which solved match up problems for his line. He also had the soft hands to be at worst a secondary weapon and exacted retribution when needed. I also suggested that if he became a career depth player, ala Malhotra or Torres who each entered the league amongst similar expectations, size and draft ranking, that it would not be a disaster. But Sergio is the best comparison I can think of for what I believe Kassian will become (and I'm ok with that!). Such players mystify fans at times who expected the breakout which appeared within their grasp; but clearly still fill major roles that help teams win.

What are others projecting for Kassian?

[Baggins]

As much as this post of yours really is a great deal of the truth (it is!); It's not the whole story.

It was clear Hodgson was under performing that camp, but communicating with the player was substituted by calling him out and embarrassing him. We all know about AV's famous comments in regards to CoHo. And we also know the bravado of sports. Guys, particularly those who have never suffered any serious injury often get caught up in the competition. If a back, or any other injury, is sore from a workout you try and work through it until its obvious you cannot compete. I watched Hodgson at the WJC's in Ottawa, he did not look slow. It could be argued the coach should have a good enough relationship to sit him down and say "you dont look quite right, or as good as we have seen before; is anything wrong?"

The team is still not free of fault. In one school of coaching you simply evaluate performance and reward the strongest and most effective. AV, in general, fit's this school. In another you manage, or "coach" and develop players to secure their best performance. That takes relationship and communication. It did not exist. And to this day, or right after he signed his contract, we hear of AV calling out Kesler for playing under expectations, even when he knew the player was injured. And by Kesler's agents reaction, turning a blind eye is testing other relationships. AV needed to handle it better then, and is till making this mistake to this day.

Water under the bridge now, but???

I've covered AV's comments about Cody "making excuses" before but I will again. When a player maintains throughout the healing process his back is fine, then again throughout training camp, and yet again throughout preseason, what is the coach to think when the player immediately after getting cut goes to the press and says, "oh my back"? Wouldn't you think the kid is making excuses after several weeks of his telling you his back is fine and not bothering him at all? The most you would think about his play is that he is behind the rest physically due to missing offseason workout time.

Many here prefer to put all the blame on the Canucks medical staff, AV, and even Gillis. But Hodgson is far from being the innocent victim they like to make out. His lie set him back a year as the medical staff here had no reason to look beyond the bulging disc.

[Baggins]

Back on topic; King is provoking the crowd here. I dont believe there should be panic over Kassian. I dont believe he will become a Bertuzzi although I suppose its possible? I do feel he will play a valuable role for us!

In earlier posts I suggested a likely "landing" spot for Kassian's talents is the role and results of a player like Sergio Momesso? When paired with a play maker Ronning, and speedster / scorer Courtnall, Momesso provided the body which solved match up problems for his line. He also had the soft hands to be at worst a secondary weapon and exacted retribution when needed. I also suggested that if he became a career depth player, ala Malhotra or Torres who each entered the league amongst similar expectations, size and draft ranking, that it would not be a disaster. But Sergio is the best comparison I can think of for what I believe Kassian will become (and I'm ok with that!). Such players mystify fans at times who expected the breakout which appeared within their grasp; but clearly still fill major roles that help teams win.

What are others projecting for Kassian?

The problem with young guys like Kassian is they are a gamble. For that matter most kids are a gamble. Typically these guys have an early size advantage while playing against boys and as a result perform extremely well in junior. When faced with NHL veterans, many of which also have size, they can struggle to find their game. The distinct advantage they had in junior doesn't exist in the NHL. Few junior power forwards step seemlessly into the NHL. Some take a few years to mature into it and others never do find the success they had in junior. If they do find their game in the NHL they are a force.

Kassian has shown flashes of what he can become though. By 25 he could well be a force. I'll reserve judgement for a few years on him. He could be worth the wait.

[Canuck Surfer]

I've suggested your right, and the lions share of the problem was Hodgson. Part of being a pro is dealing with injuries and they need to be reported.

But the team looking to see through players playing with injuries is a component. Calling them out, in todays day and age is a cardinal sin. The player see's himself as playing through pain and trying to work their way through it. They need to be assured they'll get opportunities for doing injury management, and if supported they will. But they get sat and told they're not going good enough, so instead they push themselves harder and make things worse. This year If AV was coming out and saying to fans, hey cut Kesler some slack, he was playing through some injuries and we're going to go get him better in the off season... But he didn't; he called him out. To me it proves injury management is someone else's responsibility to AV, so these issues are not surprising. How would you feel if you were jumping of the medical table into your gear. Guys are being encouraged to push themselves and the expectations are still just as high. And here we know EVERYONE knew of the injury status. Similarly AV claimed to have no idea Sedin would not be available. Come on; we now know enough about concussions that setbacks are par for the course. Clearly AV needs to be managing situations better and its not just Hodgson.

Take your own Hodgson blinders off. There is more than one opportunity lost and more coming without change.

And on topic again instead of Cody bashing; what are your projections for Kassian? Wait and see after being so strong that he was worth the trade is not a ringing endorsement. I've offered my input without being distracted by a CoHo debate.

I've covered AV's comments about Cody "making excuses" before but I will again. When a player maintains throughout the healing process his back is fine, then again throughout training camp, and yet again throughout preseason, what is the coach to think when the player immediately after getting cut goes to the press and says, "oh my back"? Wouldn't you think the kid is making excuses after several weeks of his telling you his back is fine and not bothering him at all? The most you would think about his play is that he is behind the rest physically due to missing offseason workout time.

Many here prefer to put all the blame on the Canucks medical staff, AV, and even Gillis. But Hodgson is far from being the innocent victim they like to make out. His lie set him back a year as the medical staff here had no reason to look beyond the bulging disc.

[King of the ES]

Sports has a "what have you done lately" tendency haven't they. The fact he was offered more from other teams should be an indicator of what the league thought he was worth. Most on this board have a tendency to considerably undervalue market value.

"The league", or maybe 1 or 2 bottom-feeders, like the Islanders and/or the Blue Jackets, perhaps? Let's not start touting "hometown discount" when discussing a guy who was just given a 6-year deal from us while being tied for the highest-paid defenceman on the club.

Pressure's on, Jason. Welcome to Vancouver.

[Jägermeister]

Yeah, amazing how I look at personal stats, isn't it? Those aren't ever used to value players, are they?

And the 2.5 season reference is makes a big difference. It means that he's relatively unproven! The guy's 28 years old - and he was not drafted. "Good defensive game" now earns you a 6-year contract? Is that it? Why not just bring back Aaron Rome? We should all be expecting roughly the same goals and assists from Garrison, at a minimum, going forward, based on the contract that he was levied. "Good defensive game" is not worthy of a 6-year contract at $4.6M per, period.

The argument does not contradict my bullishness on Schultz. Schultz is a 22 year-old rookie professional defenceman, that was a 2nd round pick, and now has 45 points in 32 games in the AHL after Lindrosing his team and putting a whole bunch of pressure on himself to perform. Not contradictory at all.

No, they aren't. GM's actually watch the players play. Flashy stats might get them noticed in the first place, but the way they play the game is what ultimately determines their value.

Comparing Garrisons game to Romes

Until you say something that gives me any indication that you have watched some hockey, and can make an assesment of a players skill based off of seeing them play, there really isn't a point with these discussions.

[The Kassassin Train]

It's because King of Es doesn't / can't back up his own arguments when he's faced with a rebuttal that shuts him up. That's how this thread got derailed. Went from Kassian, when the people disproved his claims he went on to rant about Schultz which led to Garrison and now Hodgson who isn't even Canucks property no more.

So in the end you can thank the man who has no argument to begin with for derailing his own thread.

[The Kassassin Train]

"The league", or maybe 1 or 2 bottom-feeders, like the Islanders and/or the Blue Jackets, perhaps? Let's not start touting "hometown discount" when discussing a guy who was just given a 6-year deal from us while being tied for the highest-paid defenceman on the club.

Pressure's on, Jason. Welcome to Vancouver.

Stop changing your arguments. You call yourself a college student? If I were a prof and grading one of your papers you would receive a F.

Pressure's on kid for putting on a rebuttal without changing your subject.

St.Louis was one team your lack of knowledge in hockey is really starting to show.

[The Kassassin Train]

Still waiting for King of Es' Reply on this post....been 4 pages and he ignores it...sense of I have nothing to say because I know I'm wrong?

What "defensive game" is that?

You're aware that 2011-12 was basically his second year in the league, right?

• 2009-10: 39 GP, 2 G, 8 P, +5
  
• 2010-11: 73 GP, 5 G, 18 P, -2
  
• 2011-12: 77 GP, 16 G, 33 P, +6
  

That's the extent of his NHL career, at 28 years of age. So I'm not sure where you're getting this "defensive defenceman" reputation from, as the only thing that anybody on the Florida Panthers were shutting down in either 2009-10 or 2010-11 were their playoff hopes, mathematically, by roughly mid-January.

Since you're so keen on stats, let's use corsi stats which are a far more accurate presentation than the pathetic +/- that you use.

http://www.theglobea.../article576301/

If you have any other questions feel free to consult http://behindthenet.ca/howto.php. Now do you still have any questions? You see what I did here? I used stats to BACK UP an argument not USED to make an argument which is what skews your argument dramatically. Let alone the pathetic +/- stat.

I'm still waiting for your rebuttal as to this since your OP was pretty much the same argument to the other poster who claimed Kassian had no drive nor was he producing enough. Go on I'll wait.

Really now? Because from what I have heard and reports from a lot of subscribers to the games are completely opposite to what you say about Kassian. Perhaps a few games that there were, but for the most part from what I have read and heard from much more reliable sources and it's the complete opposite.

'No Drive' and 'Will not use his size on the boards to dig up pucks' is absolutely incorrect. Don't believe me? Ask @theshaves on Twitter. He's more than wiling to open up convo with Canuck fans. He's the play-by-play for the Wolves. I can agree with the floating comment on a couple of games I have seen.

But I laugh at your 'No drive' and 'Will not use his size on the boards to dig up pucks'. That's so far off base that it's ridiculous. The expectations for a 2nd year raw rookie is absolutely hilarious on these boards.

For all those saying he doesn't shoot enough I beg to differ. I'm only using stats to back up an argument not as an argument like many are doing here...

"Kassian leads all Wolves forwards in total shots and is averaging 2.7 shots per game."

Source: http://vansunsportsb...is-groove-back/

In the middle of the article is where you will find your quote. So again is it Kassian's game or is it the system that Arniel is implementing?

Furthermore, I'm not comparing Kassian to Kesler's playing abilities as they are completely different, but Kesler had 57 points during the lockout in 2005. Did we panic then? No. Kassian is not a blue-chip offensive sniper that many think he is. He's doing what I expected of him on a team that isn't stacked with offensive talent. That's open up space for his teammates while getting physical without being out of position. A 50 - 55 pt season with 175 - 200 hits and 80 - 100 PIMS for the right reason is what I expect out of Kass this year in the A if he's there the whole season.

[WolfxHaley]

Still waiting for King of Es' Reply on this post....been 4 pages and he ignores it...sense of I have nothing to say because I know I'm wrong?

Since you're so keen on stats, let's use corsi stats which are a far more accurate presentation than the pathetic +/- that you use.

http://www.theglobea.../article576301/

If you have any other questions feel free to consult http://behindthenet.ca/howto.php. Now do you still have any questions? You see what I did here? I used stats to BACK UP an argument not USED to make an argument which is what skews your argument dramatically. Let alone the pathetic +/- stat.

I'm still waiting for your rebuttal as to this since your OP was pretty much the same argument to the other poster who claimed Kassian had no drive nor was he producing enough. Go on I'll wait.

If it goes against his argument then lets just ignore it, or offer up an idiotic comparison between completely different players.

[King of the ES]

No, they aren't. GM's actually watch the players play. Flashy stats might get them noticed in the first place, but the way they play the game is what ultimately determines their value.

Comparing Garrisons game to Romes

Until you say something that gives me any indication that you have watched some hockey, and can make an assesment of a players skill based off of seeing them play, there really isn't a point with these discussions.

"Watching them play" is exactly the environment that leads to bias and clouded judgment. Mason Raymond is almost always the fastest guy on the ice, he carries the puck a lot, he gets a lot of chances, etc. Yet who was the biggest whipping boy on this team last year? And why is that? Because he had 10 goals and 20 points in 55 games while getting quality minutes with quality linemates.

The staunch reality is that if Jason Garrison had identical offensive production in 2011-12 as he has in 2010-11, there is simply no chance in hell that he would've gotten a 6-year, $4.6M per year contract.

[King of the ES]

It's because King of Es doesn't / can't back up his own arguments when he's faced with a rebuttal that shuts him up. That's how this thread got derailed. Went from Kassian, when the people disproved his claims he went on to rant about Schultz which led to Garrison and now Hodgson who isn't even Canucks property no more.

Nobody disproved any of my "claims" - actually, real-life statistics - on Kassian. There's nothing to disprove, they were factual and verifiable.

I think this is a bit above your level of reading comprehension.

[King of the ES]

Since you're so keen on stats, let's use corsi stats which are a far more accurate presentation than the pathetic +/- that you use.

I didn't exclusively use "the pathetic +/-" statistics. Statistics need to be looked-at in tandem. Great, CORSI. Who cares? Goals are down, points are down, shots are down, PIM are up, all transparent and worthy of discussion as to what's going wrong.

[King of the ES]

You see what I did here? I used stats to BACK UP an argument not USED to make an argument which is what skews your argument dramatically.

What specifically are you arguing?

[Smashian Kassian]

"Watching them play" is exactly the environment that leads to bias and clouded judgment. Mason Raymond is almost always the fastest guy on the ice, he carries the puck a lot, he gets a lot of chances, etc. Yet who was the biggest whipping boy on this team last year? And why is that? Because he had 10 goals and 20 points in 55 games while getting quality minutes with quality linemates.

Again you show you don't watch hockey.

Raymond isn't the whipping boy just cause of stats it's cause of how he plays and how you described it isn't accurate.

He carried the puck wide, takes shots constantly from terrible angles, falls down all the time and plays to the perimeter, aswell he shoots at the goalies chest all the time, he doesn't use his speed effectively to cut to the middle like he previously did and his agility is terrible.

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

Again you show you don't watch hockey.

Raymond isn't the whipping boy just cause of stats it's cause of how he plays and how you described it isn't accurate.

He carried the puck wide, takes shots constantly from terrible angles, falls down all the time and plays to the perimeter, aswell he shoots at the goalies chest all the time, he doesn't use his speed effectively to cut to the middle like he previously did and his agility is terrible.

100% this ...... I have watched MAyRay since juniors and expected the world . No one questions his heart . His skill is just average. Ontop of that he has never managed to muster up the confidence needed to bang with the big boys. ALL Kassian IMHO needs confidence in himself as well. He has the physical size and skill, he just needs to believe he is a power forwrd and just play.

[King of the ES]

Raymond isn't the whipping boy just cause of stats it's cause of how he plays and how you described it isn't accurate.

He carried the puck wide, takes shots constantly from terrible angles, falls down all the time and plays to the perimeter, aswell he shoots at the goalies chest all the time, he doesn't use his speed effectively to cut to the middle like he previously did and his agility is terrible.

If Raymond had ended up with 20 goals and 20 assists instead of 10 and 10, he would be nobody's whipping boy. He would be thought-of as a highly productive top-six player.

Another case in point: Brett Hull. Slowest guy on the ice, pudgy, totally absent defensively. When you get 50 goals in 50 games, nobody cares how you look.

[Smashian Kassian]

If Raymond had ended up with 20 goals and 20 assists instead of 10 and 10, he would be nobody's whipping boy. He would be thought-of as a highly productive top-six player.

Another case in point: Brett Hull. Slowest guy on the ice, pudgy, totally absent defensively. When you get 50 goals in 50 games, nobody cares how you look.

Yeah I know, he can't do either, produce or play effectively when he isn't producing.

This is kinda beside the point.

[surtur]

If Raymond had ended up with 20 goals and 20 assists instead of 10 and 10, he would be nobody's whipping boy. He would be thought-of as a highly productive top-six player.

Another case in point: Brett Hull. Slowest guy on the ice, pudgy, totally absent defensively. When you get 50 goals in 50 games, nobody cares how you look.

so your saying that because Brett Hull was crazy good for a slow fat defensively handicapped player and still scored 50 in 50 means that Kassian is only a representation of his most basic stats and not his actual on ice presence ... i don't get it why do teams spend so much money on sending scouts all over the world when they could just Google the stats of these players and draft accordingly.

it is so simple i have no idea why they haven't figured this out thank you King... you are way ahead of your time.

What ever GM figures this out first or what ever 16 year old kid that plays way to much NHL 13 gets a job as an NHL GM first will have the rest of the NHL left in the year 2012.. when we are clearly in the year 2013.. the age of "Kings Simple Stats For Over All Player Evaluation Theory Of A Players Value In A Draft or Trade Equation" or KSSFOAPETOFAPVIADT