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Multiple Warning Signs Surrounding Zack Kassian


King of the ES

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I didn't exclusively use "the pathetic +/-" statistics. Statistics need to be looked-at in tandem. Great, CORSI. Who cares? Goals are down, points are down, shots are down, PIM are up, all transparent and worthy of discussion as to what's going wrong.

Most of the time, I think King brings up points that are valid and stimulates good (passionate and polarizing) discussion, which I had always thought these discussion forums were intended for. However, I have to say, with this last post I would have to disagree with dismissing the Corsi ratings. If one is to make assessments using stats as the leading determinant on the value or development of players, one needs to analyze as many statistical variables as possible. Otherwise, one is making a judgment based on cursory analysis, which at the end of the day is incomplete.

Stats are important...look at how stats were used as ONE component by Epstein to build the Bosox roster into World Series champs (and yes, it can be argued that baseball does not equal hockey) and the value they were portrayed to have in "Moneyball". But, to say that this is the only tool to evaluate the development of a player is myopic and leads to false conclusions. Granted, sports is about the here and now, so I can understand the "concerns" expressed by King. I don't share these concerns, which seems to be the general consensus here on the board...the future for Kassian is still in front of him, so there's still reason for all of us to be patient and wait for him to develop into the power forward that we expect him to be.

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I didn't exclusively use "the pathetic +/-" statistics. Statistics need to be looked-at in tandem. Great, CORSI. Who cares? Goals are down, points are down, shots are down, PIM are up, all transparent and worthy of discussion as to what's going wrong.

Great Corsi?! Oh I get it too dumb to understand them. Shots area down yet he leads the team what a joke.

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Nobody disproved any of my "claims" - actually, real-life statistics - on Kassian. There's nothing to disprove, they were factual and verifiable.

I think this is a bit above your level of reading comprehension.

You're so cute. Corsi stats are a far more accurate way of judging a player compared to your GP, Goals, PIM and assists to see the effectiveness of a player. Obviously too dumb to figure it out and I am extremely shocked you even were able to make it past a GED. Let alone a university would even consider accepting you.

Hahahaha what am I arguing and you're the one who thinks I have a reading comprehension problem I'm arguing that when you don't have a concrete argument, you change the subject. You just did again by commenting on my 'reading comprehension' level. Good try ace and I'm glad your vocabulary consists of big words. Ya see how easy it is to make yourself sound bright?

Yawn. When you can figure out Corsi stats then come talk to me. Of course ya won't and you can play with your baby stats just like the majority of CDC.

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  • Anton Rodin: 1 goal in 22 games. "Who cares? Not concerned, he's gonna be great. Stop trolling".

Rodin isn't very good. He clearly is having no luck adjusting to the North American game.

Showed a lot of promise early on, but I'd be surprised to see him ever crack our roster.

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If anything contrary to your opinion is only an "excuse" then what excuses do you have which explain why Kassian has this drop in production? Something more than, "perhaps he's not as good as Gillis thought he was", would be useful.

Excuses don't explain, and explanations don't excuse, so I won't offer any.

The fact of the matter is that his production has dropped, which is the point of this thread. It's discussion-worthy. You're aware that we gave up arguably the best prospect that we've had since Trevor Linden for him, right?

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Excuses don't explain, and explanations don't excuse, so I won't offer any.

The fact of the matter is that his production has dropped, which is the point of this thread. It's discussion-worthy. You're aware that we gave up arguably the best prospect that we've had since Trevor Linden for him, right?

The Sedins and Kesler would beg to differ :lol:

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Everyone has "admitted" if you will that what Schultz is doing is unbelievable, that still doesn't mean that he will be able to do it at the NHL level, or that it was a "Mistake" he chose Edmonton instead of coming here, or that Garrison wasn't a better signing for us (Which he was)

Wow, so you'd rather have Jason Garrison for 6 years at $4.6M per than Justin Schultz on an ELC.

Incredible.

The reason we aren't worried about Kassian is because he has been playing well, if he was struggling and had lowsy stats then by all means bring it up, I would be concerned too, but everyone can see (Cause they watch the Wolves games) He is playing fine, being physical, making plays, doing good things.

If that's the case, then why was he benched?

Rodin: I love how you do this, you say "1 goal in 18 games, 1 goal in 22 games" yet you discredit that he actually has 8 Points, playing on the third line and less, playing every 2nd game. You twist the facts in your favour. Now the thing you have to understand about him is no one is expecting him to light it up, no one is really expecting much, I don't know why you harp on it no one is surprised his production is like this. NO ONE. For the record I think he has all the tools in his game, he just has to continue to develop, get stronger, and put it all together, but that doesn't excuse the fact we all hoped for more, but it takes players longer to adjust and Anton has always been sort of a project. No one really expected more, you need to be patient with him.

No one really expected more? He was a 2nd round pick! Taken ahead of guys like Tatar, McNabb, Craig Smith, Horak, etc. To say that nobody is "surprised" by this is just ridiculous. I'll repeat - 1 goal in 22 games. That's pretty hard to do as a stay-at-home defenceman, let alone as a guy who's there exclusively to provide offense.

As for the rest of your post, you're just trying to ignore the fact (to feel better about your team's prospects - denial) that any time a prospect shows regressive numbers, it is not a good thing. I will again point out the fact that if Kassian, or Rodin, or anybody else, was leading the AHL in points, this place would be brimming with hype. Stats are conveniently meaningless when, and only when, they go in the opposite direction of the hometown bias.

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The Sedins and Kesler would beg to differ :lol:

Nope, don't think so. You're probably too young to remember these things; here's a little history lesson.

Sedin's were projected as "solid second-liners" from the day that they were drafted. They were largely ineffective in their first few years in the league. Highlights here and there, but extremely slow, weak, and basically just shells of what they've turned in to since 2009. The "solid second-liner" moniker really didn't leave them until the '08-'09 season, when they really started to assume a leadership role with this team and assert themselves as elite players - and, for the first time in their careers, they actually performed pretty well in the playoffs. To be honest, one of Mike Gillis' most underrated moves as our GM was extending the Sedin's back in 2009; there were a lot of people that wanted the rebuild to commence at that point, as the Sedin's were not thought-of as top-level, elite players. And I think Gillis really thought hard about the direction that he wanted to go in, and it was close (or else Burke wouldn't have flown out to Ornskoldsvik). Then 2009-10 came, and the rest is history.

Kesler was drafted as a 3rd line grinding checker. Nobody expected him to score 40 goals - or anything even close, really. Like the Sedin's, Kesler didn't show much promise in his early years, and then pretty much just exploded in 2008, with Burrows.

Both of these guys have turned out to be far, far better than anybody expected them to be. Which is why it's different than Cody.

Cody was the golden boy, the polite, well-mannered Canadian kid that won every coach's choice award in the OHL, went on to be the CHL player of the year, was the Hockey News' top prospect, was arguably the best player on Canada's WJC run, etc. People expect greatness out of Cody, which was not the case with anyone that we've drafted since Trevor Linden.

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Nope, don't think so. You're probably too young to remember these things; here's a little history lesson.

Sedin's were projected as "solid second-liners" from the day that they were drafted. They were largely ineffective in their first few years in the league. Highlights here and there, but extremely slow, weak, and basically just shells of what they've turned in to since 2009. The "solid second-liner" moniker really didn't leave them until the '08-'09 season, when they really started to assume a leadership role with this team and assert themselves as elite players - and, for the first time in their careers, they actually performed pretty well in the playoffs. To be honest, one of Mike Gillis' most underrated moves as our GM was extending the Sedin's back in 2009; there were a lot of people that wanted the rebuild to commence at that point, as the Sedin's were not thought-of as top-level, elite players. And I think Gillis really thought hard about the direction that he wanted to go in, and it was close (or else Burke wouldn't have flown out to Ornskoldsvik). Then 2009-10 came, and the rest is history.

Kesler was drafted as a 3rd line grinding checker. Nobody expected him to score 40 goals - or anything even close, really. Like the Sedin's, Kesler didn't show much promise in his early years, and then pretty much just exploded in 2008, with Burrows.

Both of these guys have turned out to be far, far better than anybody expected them to be. Which is why it's different than Cody.

Cody was the golden boy, the polite, well-mannered Canadian kid that won every coach's choice award in the OHL, went on to be the CHL player of the year, was the Hockey News' top prospect, was arguably the best player on Canada's WJC run, etc. People expect greatness out of Cody, which was not the case with anyone that we've drafted since Trevor Linden.

So he was the most overhyped. Not the best.

And after his injury and a slow start to his pro career, I don't think anybody expected this "greatness" you seem to be thinking they did. I admit for a time after the 08/09 I was pretty optimistic, it wasn't long until I went back to thinking he would be a solid 2nd liner, like many others had when we drafted him. Right now that looks like what he will be.

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Wow. King has revised reality as usual, giving us his truly unique take on things.

The Sedins were projected as 2nd liners LOL. Teams always use the 2nd and 3rd overall picks hoping to pick up some second liners lol. Nonsense only King could claim. Burke was extremely aggressive in his bid to get both picks - because he projected them (like alot of other people) to be truly special franchise players.

Hodgson the best prospect in 20 years? Absolutely laughable..

Nor was Kesler drafted as a "third line grinding checker." Once again, the world according to King.

He was drafted in the first round as a solid two-way player - the exact type of player he has developed into.

The fact that he "exploded" while playing for AV would suggest once again that AV is terrible at developing young players...

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Wow, so you'd rather have Jason Garrison for 6 years at $4.6M per than Justin Schultz on an ELC.

Incredible.

A proven NHL defensemen who brings a more solid, reliable all round game over an overhyped overpaid (3.75) rookie. Yes I think it is much better for us with the way we are situated right now.

If that's the case, then why was he benched?

No one really expected more? He was a 2nd round pick! Taken ahead of guys like Tatar, McNabb, Craig Smith, Horak, etc. To say that nobody is "surprised" by this is just ridiculous. I'll repeat - 1 goal in 22 games. That's pretty hard to do as a stay-at-home defenceman, let alone as a guy who's there exclusively to provide offense.

"If thats the case why was he benched?" Because Scott Arniel is an absolute genius.

Lol I can play this "Taken ahead of" game too.

Cody Hodgson was taken ahead of: Tyler Myers, Jake Gardiner, Erik Karlsson, Luca Sbisa, John Carlson, Slava Voynov, Micheal Del Zotto, Tyler Ennis, Jordan Eberle, Your Boy Justin Schultz, Derek Stepan, Adam Henrique.

Micheal Grabner was taken ahead of: Patrik Berglund, Claude Giroux (!!!), Seymon Varlamov, Nikolai Kulemin, Milan Lucic.

Even Your Boy Justin Schultz Was taken ahead of Adam Henrique, Travis Hamonic, Braden Holtby, Andrei Loktionov, Jared Spuergeon, Andres Lindback and Derek Stepan just to name a few

So I do not see what that proves, no one expects a ton from Rodin, I'm hopeful after seeing him play for myself a few times that he could be a productive 2 way 3rd liner, but don't worry King I'm not going to cry myself to sleep in 5 years if he isn't apart of our organization.

As for the rest of your post, you're just trying to ignore the fact (to feel better about your team's prospects - denial) that any time a prospect shows regressive numbers, it is not a good thing. I will again point out the fact that if Kassian, or Rodin, or anybody else, was leading the AHL in points, this place would be brimming with hype. Stats are conveniently meaningless when, and only when, they go in the opposite direction of the hometown bias.

This is the part I was really excited to get too.

Because this proves to me without a shadow of a doubt you balantly threw aside the most important part of my post, so here it is again.

Now I hope you read read that atleast 10 times before you respond because if you come back with a stat related argument without actually knowing what is going on, and u come back harping on prospects that no one expected to be much further ahead than they already are, then that will be the #1 sign that you are simply Trolling (As if it isn't obvious already like duh) And honestly my post isn't about arguing about prospects anyways so I don't know why you would but you never fail to amazing me so I am bracing myself for the worst.

Now seriously come on King, please just realize these things before you post and unfairly judge with no clue of what is even going on in the first place.

Above all else just take everything I said into heavy consideration before you reply please.

Glad to see you read and caught all those parts of my post.

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Nope, don't think so. You're probably too young to remember these things; here's a little history lesson.

Sedin's were projected as "solid second-liners" from the day that they were drafted. They were largely ineffective in their first few years in the league. Highlights here and there, but extremely slow, weak, and basically just shells of what they've turned in to since 2009. The "solid second-liner" moniker really didn't leave them until the '08-'09 season, when they really started to assume a leadership role with this team and assert themselves as elite players - and, for the first time in their careers, they actually performed pretty well in the playoffs. To be honest, one of Mike Gillis' most underrated moves as our GM was extending the Sedin's back in 2009; there were a lot of people that wanted the rebuild to commence at that point, as the Sedin's were not thought-of as top-level, elite players. And I think Gillis really thought hard about the direction that he wanted to go in, and it was close (or else Burke wouldn't have flown out to Ornskoldsvik). Then 2009-10 came, and the rest is history.

Kesler was drafted as a 3rd line grinding checker. Nobody expected him to score 40 goals - or anything even close, really. Like the Sedin's, Kesler didn't show much promise in his early years, and then pretty much just exploded in 2008, with Burrows.

Both of these guys have turned out to be far, far better than anybody expected them to be. Which is why it's different than Cody.

Cody was the golden boy, the polite, well-mannered Canadian kid that won every coach's choice award in the OHL, went on to be the CHL player of the year, was the Hockey News' top prospect, was arguably the best player on Canada's WJC run, etc. People expect greatness out of Cody, which was not the case with anyone that we've drafted since Trevor Linden.

I guess your still hoping Cody will become a poor mans Steven Stamkos like some so slightly suggested around draft day.

I guess you also are forgetting that the Sedins were rated #1 and #2 in the draft rankings heading into the draft, but I guess players projected to be "Solid 2nd liners" are being rated #1 and #2 and going in the top 3 nowadays.

You also forgot about many others:

- Pavel Bure

- Luc Bourdon

- Petr Nedved (2nd Overall Pick

- Cory Schneider

- Ryan Kesler

- The Sedins (as I just touched on)

- Bryan Allen (4th Overall Pick)

- Brad Ference (10th Overall Pick)

- Josh Holden (12th Overall Pick)

- Mattias Ohlund

- Jason Herter (8th Overall Pick)

- Chris McCalister (14th Overall Pick)

Then look at a prospects/young players we have acquired like Markus Naslund, Ed Jovanoski, Todd Bertuzzi & Kirk McLean.

Yet you rate Cody Hodgson and his 41 Points season ahead of all of these guys..

I just don't understand it.....

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King has revised reality as usual, giving us his truly unique take on things.

The Sedins were projected as 2nd liners haha. Teams always use the 2nd and 3rd overall picks hoping to pick up some second liners. Nonsense only King could claim.

Nor was Kesler drafted as a "third line grinding checker." Once again, the world according to King.

He was drafted in the first round as a solid two-way player - the exact type of player he has developed into.

The fact that he "exploded" while playing for AV would suggest once again that AV is terrible at developing young players...

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Nathan Mackinnon, Sasha Barkov and Johnathon Drouin turn out to be just "Solid 2nd Liners" Like the Sedin's were apparently projected too.

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Yet you rate Cody Hodgson and his 41 Points season ahead of all of these guys..

I just don't understand it.....

That is correct, you don't understand it. Common theme with you, so it seems.

You may want to familiarize yourself with the meaning of the word "expectations", and try reading my post again.

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Excuses don't explain, and explanations don't excuse, so I won't offer any.

The fact of the matter is that his production has dropped, which is the point of this thread. It's discussion-worthy.

Hokay, so this will be another of those questions to which you will not supply even a barely adequate answer once you've painted yourself into a corner. Your input suggests that it is time to trot out the gloom, despair and agony song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPL7nN99jno

Other than providing a bunch of pointless stats, and sharing your opinion that any possible explanation provided by others is an excuse, and as such is invalid, you aren't really adding anything of value to this discussion, are you? :)

Why are the stats pointless? Well, there is no context attached to them if we follow your rules. They are lower than those from a previous time period, but there's nothing to indicate why they are what they are. It is merely a reporting of "data".

The only reason you chose to report them up is that they are "discussion-worthy", and they are, but without the proper context they are mostly worthless. I suspect that they will become less worthy of discussion if Kassian picked up the pace a bit and scored a few more points, yes? Or would you feel compelled to offer some explanations (sorry, I meant to say "excuses") as to why Kassian was now providing better numbers?

I find this to be discussion-worthy.

You're aware that we gave up arguably the best prospect that we've had since Trevor Linden for him, right?

I thought Patrick White was traded in that deal with San Jose that brought Lukowich and Ehrhoff here?

regards,

G.

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That is correct, you don't understand it. Common theme with you, so it seems.

You may want to familiarize yourself with the meaning of the word "expectations", and try reading my post again.

Cody's far fetched expectations initially from most fans was probably to possibly be a 1st liner, not a top tier 1st liner but a decent 1st liner.

Once everyone came to there sense they realized he is likely to be a solid 2nd line center.

And now you think the Sedin's didn't have bigger "expectations" than Cody.

The Sedin's were expected to carry the franchise! I'm sure alot of projected 2nd liners are expected to do that right???

You saying Cody is the best prospect we have had since Trevor Linden just shows you haven't follow this team long, and aren't a big fan if a fan at all.

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Wow. King has revised reality as usual, giving us his truly unique take on things.

The Sedins were projected as 2nd liners LOL. Teams always use the 2nd and 3rd overall picks hoping to pick up some second liners lol. Nonsense only King could claim. Burke was extremely aggressive in his bid to get both picks - because he projected them (like alot of other people) to be truly special franchise players.

Hodgson the best prospect in 20 years? Absolutely laughable..

Nor was Kesler drafted as a "third line grinding checker." Once again, the world according to King.

He was drafted in the first round as a solid two-way player - the exact type of player he has developed into.

The fact that he "exploded" while playing for AV would suggest once again that AV is terrible at developing young players...

You're either a lot younger than I thought, or you've got a very short-term memory.

Nobody expected the Sedin's to be what they've turned out to be. "Solid second-liners" was a description that followed them around everywhere. "Not 1st-line guys"..."not going to carry a team on their back"..."very good support players"..."the type to shy away in the playoffs"...etc. Even when they were drafted, they were not thought to be slam-dunk future superstars in the way that Cody Hodgson had been, especially in the year that followed us drafting him. Funny how Brian Burke is speaking in pure hyperbole when he references Luke Schenn, but pure truth with the Sedin's. Hmm. Derp.

As to Kesler, you may want to watch this:

I stand by my point that both the Sedin's and Kesler have far, far exceeded their expectations.

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