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Multiple Warning Signs Surrounding Zack Kassian


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#271 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

Still waiting for King of Es' Reply on this post....been 4 pages and he ignores it...sense of I have nothing to say because I know I'm wrong?




Since you're so keen on stats, let's use corsi stats which are a far more accurate presentation than the pathetic +/- that you use.

http://www.theglobea.../article576301/

If you have any other questions feel free to consult http://behindthenet.ca/howto.php. Now do you still have any questions? You see what I did here? I used stats to BACK UP an argument not USED to make an argument which is what skews your argument dramatically. Let alone the pathetic +/- stat.

I'm still waiting for your rebuttal as to this since your OP was pretty much the same argument to the other poster who claimed Kassian had no drive nor was he producing enough. Go on I'll wait.

If it goes against his argument then lets just ignore it, or offer up an idiotic comparison between completely different players.
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#272 King of the ES

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

No, they aren't. GM's actually watch the players play. Flashy stats might get them noticed in the first place, but the way they play the game is what ultimately determines their value.
Comparing Garrisons game to Romes :lol:
Until you say something that gives me any indication that you have watched some hockey, and can make an assesment of a players skill based off of seeing them play, there really isn't a point with these discussions.


"Watching them play" is exactly the environment that leads to bias and clouded judgment. Mason Raymond is almost always the fastest guy on the ice, he carries the puck a lot, he gets a lot of chances, etc. Yet who was the biggest whipping boy on this team last year? And why is that? Because he had 10 goals and 20 points in 55 games while getting quality minutes with quality linemates.

The staunch reality is that if Jason Garrison had identical offensive production in 2011-12 as he has in 2010-11, there is simply no chance in hell that he would've gotten a 6-year, $4.6M per year contract.
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#273 King of the ES

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:03 PM

It's because King of Es doesn't / can't back up his own arguments when he's faced with a rebuttal that shuts him up. That's how this thread got derailed. Went from Kassian, when the people disproved his claims he went on to rant about Schultz which led to Garrison and now Hodgson who isn't even Canucks property no more.


Nobody disproved any of my "claims" - actually, real-life statistics - on Kassian. There's nothing to disprove, they were factual and verifiable.

I think this is a bit above your level of reading comprehension.
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#274 King of the ES

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

Since you're so keen on stats, let's use corsi stats which are a far more accurate presentation than the pathetic +/- that you use.


I didn't exclusively use "the pathetic +/-" statistics. Statistics need to be looked-at in tandem. Great, CORSI. Who cares? Goals are down, points are down, shots are down, PIM are up, all transparent and worthy of discussion as to what's going wrong.
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#275 King of the ES

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

You see what I did here? I used stats to BACK UP an argument not USED to make an argument which is what skews your argument dramatically.


What specifically are you arguing?
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#276 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:52 PM

"Watching them play" is exactly the environment that leads to bias and clouded judgment. Mason Raymond is almost always the fastest guy on the ice, he carries the puck a lot, he gets a lot of chances, etc. Yet who was the biggest whipping boy on this team last year? And why is that? Because he had 10 goals and 20 points in 55 games while getting quality minutes with quality linemates.


Again you show you don't watch hockey.

Raymond isn't the whipping boy just cause of stats it's cause of how he plays and how you described it isn't accurate.

He carried the puck wide, takes shots constantly from terrible angles, falls down all the time and plays to the perimeter, aswell he shoots at the goalies chest all the time, he doesn't use his speed effectively to cut to the middle like he previously did and his agility is terrible.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 03 January 2013 - 05:52 PM.

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#277 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:55 PM

Again you show you don't watch hockey.

Raymond isn't the whipping boy just cause of stats it's cause of how he plays and how you described it isn't accurate.

He carried the puck wide, takes shots constantly from terrible angles, falls down all the time and plays to the perimeter, aswell he shoots at the goalies chest all the time, he doesn't use his speed effectively to cut to the middle like he previously did and his agility is terrible.


100% this ...... I have watched MAyRay since juniors and expected the world . No one questions his heart . His skill is just average. Ontop of that he has never managed to muster up the confidence needed to bang with the big boys. ALL Kassian IMHO needs confidence in himself as well. He has the physical size and skill, he just needs to believe he is a power forwrd and just play.

Edited by vanfan73, 03 January 2013 - 05:59 PM.

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#278 King of the ES

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:37 PM

Raymond isn't the whipping boy just cause of stats it's cause of how he plays and how you described it isn't accurate.

He carried the puck wide, takes shots constantly from terrible angles, falls down all the time and plays to the perimeter, aswell he shoots at the goalies chest all the time, he doesn't use his speed effectively to cut to the middle like he previously did and his agility is terrible.


If Raymond had ended up with 20 goals and 20 assists instead of 10 and 10, he would be nobody's whipping boy. He would be thought-of as a highly productive top-six player.

Another case in point: Brett Hull. Slowest guy on the ice, pudgy, totally absent defensively. When you get 50 goals in 50 games, nobody cares how you look.

Edited by King of the ES, 03 January 2013 - 06:37 PM.

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#279 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:44 PM

If Raymond had ended up with 20 goals and 20 assists instead of 10 and 10, he would be nobody's whipping boy. He would be thought-of as a highly productive top-six player.

Another case in point: Brett Hull. Slowest guy on the ice, pudgy, totally absent defensively. When you get 50 goals in 50 games, nobody cares how you look.


Yeah I know, he can't do either, produce or play effectively when he isn't producing.

This is kinda beside the point.
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#280 surtur

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:01 PM

If Raymond had ended up with 20 goals and 20 assists instead of 10 and 10, he would be nobody's whipping boy. He would be thought-of as a highly productive top-six player.

Another case in point: Brett Hull. Slowest guy on the ice, pudgy, totally absent defensively. When you get 50 goals in 50 games, nobody cares how you look.

so your saying that because Brett Hull was crazy good for a slow fat defensively handicapped player and still scored 50 in 50 means that Kassian is only a representation of his most basic stats and not his actual on ice presence ... i don't get it why do teams spend so much money on sending scouts all over the world when they could just Google the stats of these players and draft accordingly.
it is so simple i have no idea why they haven't figured this out thank you King... you are way ahead of your time.
What ever GM figures this out first or what ever 16 year old kid that plays way to much NHL 13 gets a job as an NHL GM first will have the rest of the NHL left in the year 2012.. when we are clearly in the year 2013.. the age of "Kings Simple Stats For Over All Player Evaluation Theory Of A Players Value In A Draft or Trade Equation" or KSSFOAPETOFAPVIADT
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#281 oldnews

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:03 PM

"The league", or maybe 1 or 2 bottom-feeders, like the Islanders and/or the Blue Jackets, perhaps? Let's not start touting "hometown discount" when discussing a guy who was just given a 6-year deal from us while being tied for the highest-paid defenceman on the club.

Pressure's on, Jason. Welcome to Vancouver.


OOOOOOO Jason - welcome to Vancouver....
Uh, what's that, oh you are from Vancouver, my mistake.
Yeah, I guess, uh, who am I to welcome you to your own hometown?
And, uh, I live in Chicago. Derp. Welcome to uh, geez, forget it.
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#282 oldnews

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

"Watching them play" is exactly the environment that leads to bias and clouded judgment. Mason Raymond is almost always the fastest guy on the ice, he carries the puck a lot, he gets a lot of chances, etc. Yet who was the biggest whipping boy on this team last year? And why is that? Because he had 10 goals and 20 points in 55 games while getting quality minutes with quality linemates.

The staunch reality is that if Jason Garrison had identical offensive production in 2011-12 as he has in 2010-11, there is simply no chance in hell that he would've gotten a 6-year, $4.6M per year contract.


I think it was Jagermeister who already explained to you that stay-at-home blueliners are actually also valued by GMs. I'm not surprised his point didn't reach home.
Since you are simply so obviously blinded by glitz and points, let me give you an analogy from a sport where the defense and offense are separate groups - in (NA) football, there are players who line up on opposite side of the ball - one side is called the offense and one side is called the defense. The defensive players sometimes score points as a result of a turnover (returned for a touchdown), but generally their job is simply to stop the opposing offense from scoring. They make up a full half of the team - and overall they account for half of the results. There are some defensive players with names Haloti Ngata and Ed Reed who are actually the highest paid players on their team, making more than their quarterback and top receiver.
In the NHL, there are also players whose job is to stop other players from scoring moreso than to score themselves.

I showed you a list of guys with comparable salaries to Garrison - there are players like Robyn Regehr are on that list. Regehr is a shutdown blueliner, and was a very good one for quite a long time - probably the best defenseman over the past decade for Calgary. I can just imagine your response - that's ridiculous - Regehr, Calgary's best defenseman! Regehr is not a judged by the fact that he only averages 15 points a season (less than Garrison's first season and less than half of his production last year). He was one hell of a difficult guy to play against, and therefore he was valued appropriately. He was a plus player his last seven years in Calgary - how many Flames can you say that about? Let me help you with that one - nobody.

Garrison is easily worth what he was signed for. It's all relative King. If two years isn't enough of an indication - then you may want to reconsider the uber-fanboying of Schultz that you have spread all over CDC - it makes your contradiction exceeding clear.

Edited by oldnews, 03 January 2013 - 08:37 PM.

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#283 King of the ES

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

I showed you a list of guys with comparable salaries to Garrison - there are players like Robyn Regehr are on that list. Regehr is a shutdown blueliner, and was a very good one for quite a long time - probably the best defenseman over the past decade for Calgary. I can just imagine your response - that's ridiculous - Regehr, Calgary's best defenseman! Regehr is not a judged by the fact that he only averages 15 points a season (less than Garrison's first season and less than half of his production last year). He was one hell of a difficult guy to play against, and therefore he was valued appropriately. He was a plus player his last seven years in Calgary - how many Flames can you say that about? Let me help you with that one - nobody.


Thanks, but I'm well-aware that some guys are paid on the basis of defence-first. You still haven't answered whether you'd actually want any of the guys on your list; guys like Komisarek and/or Tyutin. I certainly don't want those guys, at $4.5M. Do you? And just because guys like that have those - bad - contracts, that justifies giving Garrison one?

On Regehr, he was very good, but he slowed down considerably a couple of years ago, not nearly as effective as he used to be. You're right that he was a very nasty piece of business to play against - which Jason Garrison is not. With that said, no, he was not the best defenceman on the Calgary Flames. Dion Phaneuf was. Regehr had zero offensive aptitude to speak of. Regehr was never a Norris nominee; Phaneuf was. But, I'll assume that you value +/- higher than you value a Norris nomination. Am I right?
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#284 debluvscanucks

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

so your saying that because Brett Hull was crazy good for a slow fat defensively handicapped player and still scored 50 in 50 means that Kassian is only a representation of his most basic stats and not his actual on ice presence ... i don't get it why do teams spend so much money on sending scouts all over the world when they could just Google the stats of these players and draft accordingly.


So King, what do you say about this?
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#285 Blackberries

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:25 PM

*well proudly wearing my christmas present of a brand new Kassian canucks jersey*


I say this thread really sucks.
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Movember Kassian

#286 DeNiro

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:26 PM

Complaining about a player before he has even played a game for us.

That's taking b!tching and moaning to a new level. Even for the King of the Extremely Stupid.

Edited by DeNiro, 03 January 2013 - 10:27 PM.

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#287 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:29 PM

*well proudly wearing my christmas present of a brand new Kassian canucks jersey*


I say this thread really sucks.

Welcome to the club haha, I got mine a while ago.
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#288 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

I think the Canucks might want to consider just that.
How much has the .org spent on scouting since Gills took over in 2008?
How many Gillis draft picks will suit up and play if there is a season?
The question should be: How much can we save by ditching the scouting staff and just using Google?
Canucks haven’t fared well at draft under GM Mike Gillis

Still, given the effort and resources expended — under Gillis, the amateur scouting department overseen by Thomas Gradin and Ron Delorme became the largest in the NHL — the Canucks should have more elite prospects than they do.
http://sports.nation...gm-mike-gillis/

Edited by nuck nit, 03 January 2013 - 10:33 PM.

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#289 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

So King, what do you say about this?

Let me try my best King of the ES answer!


"Your Vancouver Canucks scouting staff would be better off using google..."


Do I win?

Edited by SonGoku23, 03 January 2013 - 10:40 PM.

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#290 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:43 PM

OOOOOOO Jason - welcome to Vancouver....
Uh, what's that, oh you are from Vancouver, my mistake.
Yeah, I guess, uh, who am I to welcome you to your own hometown?
And, uh, I live in Chicago. Derp. Welcome to uh, geez, forget it.

ooOOOOOH,Jason,you talk like one of those southern boys.
Say whaaaaaat,you have not lived in Canada since you played for the Clippers when you were twenty years old?
Yeah,I guess you really have become American living in Florida,NY and Minnesota for your entire adult and pro life.
I guess somebody should welcome you back since White Rock looks a lot different than when you lived here as a teenager.
How about the derp-he will do it.Oldnews,Oldnews.....

Edited by nuck nit, 03 January 2013 - 10:48 PM.

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#291 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:45 PM

Let me try my best King of the ES answer!
"Your Vancouver Canucks scouting staff would be better off using google..."
Do I win?

No.
But you did save the .org $18 million per annum and the percentage of players making it has increased 35%.
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#292 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

No.
But you did save the .org $18 million per annum and the percentage of players making it has increased 35%.

Don't recall asking you, but cute you're sticking up for your "King"
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#293 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:06 PM

Oh,you did ask for it.
Just providing some support to what appears to be the CDC bully show.
"Bitching,moaning,extremely stupid,idiotic,pathetic,etc." - all on one page directed to the OP.

Nice act.

Hardly cute,even for a guy with your avatar or whatever it is.

Edited by nuck nit, 04 January 2013 - 02:24 AM.

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#294 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

Oh,you did ask for it.

Just providing some support to what appears to be the CDC bully show.

Bitching,moaning,extremely stupid,idiotic,pathetic,etc.-all on one page for one poster.

Nice act.

Hardly cute,even for a guy with your avatar or whatever it is.

Describing yourself in a nutshell.Thanks!
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#295 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:34 PM

Oh,you did ask for it.

Just providing some support to what appears to be the CDC bully show.

Bitching,moaning,extremely stupid,idiotic,pathetic,etc.-all on one page for one poster.

Nice act.

Hardly cute,even for a guy with your avatar or whatever it is.


Hey man you never answered my question about what Gillis could have offered Shultz that the Oilers couldn't.

You must have just missed it.

You should probably watch the personally attacks on Goku as well. Those warnings add up don't you know.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 03 January 2013 - 11:35 PM.

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#296 Vancanwincup

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:38 PM

Describing yourself in a nutshell.Thanks!


:lol: nuck nitwit set himself up for that perfectly ::D
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#297 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:40 PM

"Watching them play" is exactly the environment that leads to bias and clouded judgment. Mason Raymond is almost always the fastest guy on the ice, he carries the puck a lot, he gets a lot of chances, etc. Yet who was the biggest whipping boy on this team last year? And why is that? Because he had 10 goals and 20 points in 55 games while getting quality minutes with quality linemates.

The staunch reality is that if Jason Garrison had identical offensive production in 2011-12 as he has in 2010-11, there is simply no chance in hell that he would've gotten a 6-year, $4.6M per year contract.

You forgot several things about watching Raymonds game. That's the problem with having a discussion with you. I fully admit that much of the evidence if not all of it is absolutely correct. The problem is it's almost never complete.
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#298 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:46 PM

Describing yourself in a nutshell.Thanks!


More of the CDC bully show.
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#299 WolfxHaley

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:46 PM

:lol: nuck nitwit set himself up for that perfectly ::D

Yeah, I almost felt pity for him as I posted that...Almost.
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#300 nuck nit

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:46 PM

:lol: nuck nitwit set himself up for that perfectly ::D

Yet another winner.
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