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Multiple Warning Signs Surrounding Zack Kassian


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#481 King of the ES

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

AHL? Who said anything about the AHL?


Well when did Cody experience this year-over-year drop in key metrics like goals and points?

You weren't actually trying to make your point by referencing his 20-game, end-of-rookie-season stint in Buffalo, were you?
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#482 Jägermeister

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:40 PM

Well when did Cody experience this year-over-year drop in key metrics like goals and points?

You weren't actually trying to make your point by referencing his 20-game, end-of-rookie-season stint in Buffalo, were you?


No?
Maybe you should go back and read the post I was responding to in the first place, we've already had this argument.
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#483 SamJamIam

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:12 PM

I'm sorry, Hodgson had a year-over-year drop in key metrics while in the AHL? When was this?


"Key metrics"? Funny words coming from the guy who doesn't grasp what Corsi figures mean.
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#484 DeNiro

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:28 PM

Well when did Cody experience this year-over-year drop in key metrics like goals and points?

You weren't actually trying to make your point by referencing his 20-game, end-of-rookie-season stint in Buffalo, were you?


So let me get this straight. You're saying you can't make a fair judgement on Hodgson based on 20 games at the end of the season.

But somehow you can make a fair assessment of Kassian after 44 games in the NHL?

Hypocritical much?
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#485 DeNiro

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:37 PM

If we're talking about the AHL, Kassian scored at a 0.86 PPG pace in the AHL last season.

He is scoring at a 0.71 PPG pace in the AHL this season. A difference of 0.15 PPG.

When you consider that he's on one of the lowest scoring teams in the AHL, it's really not that much of a dropoff.

You're acting like his point totals have been cut in half.

Edited by DeNiro, 07 January 2013 - 07:38 PM.

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#486 higgyfan

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:39 PM

I was pissed off when MG traded Cody for Zack until I realized that Cody wanted out of Van. What was MG to do? People need to let go of CH and have some faith in Zack. He's the kind of player that takes a little longer to develop. Give a break eh?
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#487 Gollumpus

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:58 PM

Well when did Cody experience this year-over-year drop in key metrics like goals and points?

You weren't actually trying to make your point by referencing his 20-game, end-of-rookie-season stint in Buffalo, were you?


Well, there was that last 25 games he had with the Canucks where he had 8g 5a 13 pts and a +1 (if memory serves) which could be added on to those 20 games with the Sabres...

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#488 Onions

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:24 PM

I just read the first post and I think making a linear relationship using two points in hockey is horrible.

Rome got 1 goal in the first two games he's played. therefore, we can expect 82 goals out of him.
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#489 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:49 PM

Anyone else think this discussion is a waste of time?

Cody did this! Oh ya? Well, Kassian did this and Cody didn't do this! But Cody did this and that while Kassian can't do this and that! What a joke.

Cody is the better player all around currently. Kassian has a production dip due to the Wolves being a lesser team offensively than Rochester was a couple seasons ago. It's profoundly idiotic to make judgment at the time when barely a quarter of the season had come to pass. Just like it's profoundly idiotic for all the Canuck cry babies to complain the Canucks are .500 15 games into the season.
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#490 oldnews

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:15 PM

Well when did Cody experience this year-over-year drop in key metrics like goals and points?

You weren't actually trying to make your point by referencing his 20-game, end-of-rookie-season stint in Buffalo, were you?


Who cares King? What matters is the future, and it's coming. Let's get it on! Zack's gonna make you wish you had the power to delete this thread.
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#491 Nino

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:25 PM

I was pissed off when MG traded Cody for Zack until I realized that Cody wanted out of Van. What was MG to do? People need to let go of CH and have some faith in Zack. He's the kind of player that takes a little longer to develop. Give a break eh?


He was to not trade him right before the playoffs (most boneheaded move he ever did). If he wanted out trade him in the summer. If he did well in the playoffs the return would have been much better and we would have had our third best scorer who always played better in big games, in the playoffs. Can't say it wouldn't have helped considering zack was a healthy scratch because he wouldn't forechek or play defensively.

Ok so now we cleared up the what was MG to do part, right?

Edit: I don't thing anyone is saying we shouldn't have traded Coho, it's the return and time of the trade that is questionable.

Edited by Nino, 07 January 2013 - 10:28 PM.

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#492 Slegr

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:48 PM

The Canucks are still TOO soft. I, for one, am thankful we'll have a guy like Kassian available to play. Few guys on the team will literally scare the opposition like him. He's tough as nails, and damn ugly to match.
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#493 King of the ES

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:04 AM

But somehow you can make a fair assessment of Kassian after 44 games in the NHL?

Hypocritical much?


Show me where I made an assessment of Kassian after 44 games in the NHL.

Reading difficulties much?
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#494 King of the ES

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:06 AM

If we're talking about the AHL, Kassian scored at a 0.86 PPG pace in the AHL last season.

He is scoring at a 0.71 PPG pace in the AHL this season. A difference of 0.15 PPG.

When you consider that he's on one of the lowest scoring teams in the AHL, it's really not that much of a dropoff.

You're acting like his point totals have been cut in half.


17% dropoff, and at the time of this thread's creation it was even lower.

Some people would call that significant for a 22 year-old.
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#495 Bodee

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:09 AM

The Canucks are still TOO soft. I, for one, am thankful we'll have a guy like Kassian available to play. Few guys on the team will literally scare the opposition like him. He's tough as nails, and damn ugly to match.


To be fair I didn't see him scare too many opposition players in the AHL this season.

Having said that I think this season for the Wolves has been a damned nightmare, a clusterf-ck of incompetence brought about by an inept coach and dire coaching and systems.

I am glad Kass is back here where hopefully he will get decent minutes with talented linemates and playing in a system he and the rest of the team understand.

I'm not that interested in him fighting I want to see him create havoc with his size and physicality, thereby creating room and chances for line mates.
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#496 Gollumpus

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:37 AM

He was to not trade him right before the playoffs (most boneheaded move he ever did). If he wanted out trade him in the summer. If he did well in the playoffs the return would have been much better and we would have had our third best scorer who always played better in big games, in the playoffs.


"If" he played well in the playoffs. What if he didn't play well in the playoffs? The return would have been much worse, yes?

And while I am not a Hodgson basher (nor am I a Hodgson fanboy), I am a bit of a skeptic on this idea of him being a "big game" guy. Take a walk back through the big games from last season. Yes, Hodgson scored an impressive goal or two. This being said, he also was on the ice for a goal or two. In a 4-3 OT loss to Detroit, Hodgson had no points and was -2. In a 4-3 win over Detroit, Hodgson got a goal, and finished the game -1. In that big 4-3 win over Boston, Hodgson got a goal and an assist, and finished the game even.


regards,
G.
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#497 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:40 AM

For those panicking about Zack have a look at Todd Bertuzzi's stats prior to coming to Vancouver.

http://www.hockeydb....lay.php?pid=369

He started out with 39 points in 95-96
96-97 23 Points
97-98 18 Points
Gets traded to Vancouver were he gets 15 points in 22 games.
Two years later he explodes for 50 points

Power forwards much like defensemen take a while to develop. Probably due to players "filling out" as they hit their mid-20's.
The only issue is if Arniel's coaching is that bad, are we hurting his development?
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#498 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:50 AM

Show me where I made an assessment of Kassian after 44 games in the NHL.

Reading difficulties much?

17% dropoff, and at the time of this thread's creation it was even lower.

Some people would call that significant for a 22 year-old.


Really...I mean literally right after one another.
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#499 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:56 AM

Is Arniel really as bad a coach as everyone says? Wasn't this board clamoring for him to replace AV a few years ago and complained heavily when the Canucks lost him to Columbus?
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#500 Jägermeister

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

Is Arniel really as bad a coach as everyone says? Wasn't this board clamoring for him to replace AV a few years ago and complained heavily when the Canucks lost him to Columbus?


He's not a bad coach, it just seems like this year he's not implementing the proper system for a team that has as much high-end offensive AHL talent as the Wolves have.
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#501 smurf47

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:51 AM

Now that Kassian's essentially played the same amount of games in the AHL this season as he did last, I thought I'd have a look at the numbers to see how exactly he's "developing" (generous term).

WARNING: this ain't pretty

2011-12: 30 GP, 15 G, 26 P, +4, 94 SOG, 31 PIM

2012-13: 28 GP, 6 G, 18 P, -1, 72 SOG, 59 PIM

By my calculations, this amounts to the following data comparatives:

  • 60% year-over-year reduction in goals
  • 31% year-over-year reduction in points
  • 18% year-over-year reduction in SOG/game
  • 90% year-over-year increase in PIMs.
And, to be honest, the two things that are of the most concern to me are the decline in SOG and the increase in PIM. There's really no explanation for getting less SOG as a 22 year-old AHL sophomore than as a 21 year-old AHL rookie. And this SOG figure is even inflated, as Kass did have 7 SOG last game, bringing up his average significantly.

And while it's nice that he does seem willing to throw the body, at times, and drop the gloves, at times, I really hope that we didn't trade Cody Hodgson for a bottom-six goon that will be lucky to get 5 - 10 goals per year in limited minutes. I'm beginning to wonder if Kassian has a bit of "Kyle Beach" in him; capable of so much, too stupid to realize it and in the penalty box way, way too much.

Let's not forget that Kassian was hand held by the Sedin's in the off-season to try and get his training habits in shape (not a good sign), and even went on to be a healthy scratch in 1 (or more, I'm not sure) game, also (clearly) not a good sign.

Who else is concerned?


It raises a few more questions. Is time on ice equal? Is he being asked to play a more physical game. Does he have the same supporting cast as last season? eg a good setup man . Is he playing less on power play? Comparing his stats cannot tell the whole story.
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#502 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:51 AM

Is Arniel really as bad a coach as everyone says? Wasn't this board clamoring for him to replace AV a few years ago and complained heavily when the Canucks lost him to Columbus?


Yeah and most of this board was wrong. I think the frustration around AV causes many to just grasp onto any other option.

He's not a bad coach but imo looking at all the things people complain about regarding AV they certainly won't be happy with Arniel.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 08 January 2013 - 10:53 AM.

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#503 higgyfan

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

He was to not trade him right before the playoffs (most boneheaded move he ever did). If he wanted out trade him in the summer. If he did well in the playoffs the return would have been much better and we would have had our third best scorer who always played better in big games, in the playoffs. Can't say it wouldn't have helped considering zack was a healthy scratch because he wouldn't forechek or play defensively.

Ok so now we cleared up the what was MG to do part, right?

Edit: I don't thing anyone is saying we shouldn't have traded Coho, it's the return and time of the trade that is questionable.


And the opposite to that is Cody unable to play 3C in the playoffs because he isn't a checking line forward. The Kings eat him alive and his value slips when he can't even make the 4C. That scenario (along with rumours that Cody wants out) could have had a terrible effect on his value.

At the time, nobody knew that Lu would be trade fodder, so don't get into the what if Lu + Cody trade...
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#504 kilgore

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:33 PM

I think Kings title of his OP was a little over-the-top but jeez is it verboten now to bring up negative stats on a high prospect for discussion?

That said a few points on what I've read here.

IMO Cody Hodgson WAS a bigger hype than the Sedins or Kesler, at the time they joined the team. But it was almost entirely because of his World Junior tournament play. Heck, Bob MacKenzie was praising the kid as if the Canucks lucked out with stealing the real 1st pick in the draft.

I'm with King and others that are OK with the trade, but not the timing. Who cares if Cody wanted out?...and there is no evidence he did. It sounded more like the Lindros Parent Syndrome. A month before the trade the Canuck management KNEW that Kesler injured his shoulder (we didn't) yet AV laughed in the faces of reporters that merely suggested that perhaps Cody's minutes should go up and Keslers down. Instead we trade away our third(?) leading scorer going into the playoffs. (I always thought it was fourth but still...) and this despite his bench time. I believe he was the leading rookie scorer at the time as well if you factored in points per minute on the ice. Then of course our leading scorer goes down right before the playoffs, so we need all the snipers we can get. Hodgson would have increased his value in the playoffs if only because Daniel was down and Kesler was playing with an injured wing. AV would have held his nose and played the rookie more than he planned to so Hodgson would have definitely gotten more playing exposure. And watching him play in Boston and the World Juniors before that, I have no doubt he would have no problem elevating his play when games really mattered. Its not like we got blown out in those first games. One goal or assist here or there would could have changed everything.

Anyways, that was one glaring mistake on MG's part IMO. But its water under the bridge now. I'm excited to have Kassian on board. He's still young. As someone upthread said, if he turns into another Chris Neil I'd be happy with that. Bigger players seem to take a little longer to develop.

I just find it somewhat amusing and baffling that so many on here seem to think that killing the messenger is an adequate response to the OP. With so many of the top prospects on the Wolves struggling it does seem like it could be the coaching approach problem. It could be that Scott Arniel has changed McTavish's system around 180 and players are going through an adjustment. I'd seriously like to hear from someone who knows more about this to fill me in. Is Arniel's system radically different than McTavish's?

The point is it is difficult to diagnose Kassian's dropping production. And its also valid to point out that the whole team is struggling offensively so its not like Kassian is tanking alone. But I don't think King said he knew all the answers, only bringing it up for discussion. I think its a valid concern especially with him being regarded in the top three of our NHL ready prospects. At least enough for debate on a Canucks board, which I see has happened with 17 pages and counting.
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#505 Nino

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

And the opposite to that is Cody unable to play 3C in the playoffs because he isn't a checking line forward. The Kings eat him alive and his value slips when he can't even make the 4C. That scenario (along with rumours that Cody wants out) could have had a terrible effect on his value.

At the time, nobody knew that Lu would be trade fodder, so don't get into the what if Lu + Cody trade...


From my understanding Cody had a fantastic record in crunch games (check his stats) was he not the MVP in the worlds? To say our third leading scorer would not have helped us in the playoffs more then zack did is crazy.
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#506 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

17% dropoff, and at the time of this thread's creation it was even lower.

Some people would call that significant for a 22 year-old.


No, only you it seems.
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#507 King of the ES

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

For those panicking about Zack have a look at Todd Bertuzzi's stats prior to coming to Vancouver.


Thanks.

I hope you'll also look at Steve Bernier's, to be fair.
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#508 King of the ES

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:11 PM

Really...I mean literally right after one another.


Wrong. The 17% dropoff is based off his AHL performance.

Reading comprehension weakness confirmed.
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#509 King of the ES

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:12 PM

He's not a bad coach, it just seems like this year he's not implementing the proper system for a team that has as much high-end offensive AHL talent as the Wolves have.


Perhaps it's not actually as "high-end" as you think, hmm?

Arniel had no issues implementing a system that allowed guys like Grabner to flourish.
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#510 Dogbyte

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

Anyone else think this discussion is a waste of time?

Cody did this! Oh ya? Well, Kassian did this and Cody didn't do this! But Cody did this and that while Kassian can't do this and that! What a joke.

Cody is the better player all around currently. Kassian has a production dip due to the Wolves being a lesser team offensively than Rochester was a couple seasons ago. It's profoundly idiotic to make judgment at the time when barely a quarter of the season had come to pass. Just like it's profoundly idiotic for all the Canuck cry babies to complain the Canucks are .500 15 games into the season.


Especially when you consider how crape Cody was the year before. They wouldn't even let him play, much like Kassian when he first got here. When you look at it he has played 44 games in the NHL, he will improve by leaps and bounds when he makes the jump full time just like Cody. Remember he is one year behind Cody in development. Kids these days.

He was to not trade him right before the playoffs (most boneheaded move he ever did). If he wanted out trade him in the summer. If he did well in the playoffs the return would have been much better and we would have had our third best scorer who always played better in big games, in the playoffs. Can't say it wouldn't have helped considering zack was a healthy scratch because he wouldn't forechek or play defensively.

Ok so now we cleared up the what was MG to do part, right?

Edit: I don't thing anyone is saying we shouldn't have traded Coho, it's the return and time of the trade that is questionable.


Some of you guys need to realize that those in control aren't looking for instant gratification like a lot of us. MG made a hockey trade for the future of the club, not to win the Stanley Cup. In hindsight he made the right choice anyway because we were horrible in the playoffs and going no where. Cody wasn't changing that no matter what some of you might want to believe.

I thought we may have been able to package him with Schnieder for something really good but take a step back and think about the actual job MG does. These dumb EA trades a lot of us do don't really happen that often.

Sit back and embrace the Kass ...

Edited by Dogbyte, 08 January 2013 - 06:21 PM.

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