Smashian Kassian Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'm not knocking Weiss. I am saying: 1) he will command over 5 million when re-signing 2) Florida will have a whack of teenage offensive centers if they were to move him 3) his value is not lower than Simmonds, Coburn, or Couturier. As much as I love Couturier - and would like to see him in a deal more so than virtually anyone - he is still a young player who hasn't established the market value of a 60 point player (on an offensively challenged team like Florida). I want Couturier primarily because of the type of player he is, the stage of his career that he is at, and the way I think he'd fit in - not to mention another year before his ELC contract expires - a very opportune set of circumstances - but I don't see his value as higher than a top line veteran like Weiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 If it's so obvious that Schneider is the better goaltender, why wasn't he the starter for the whole season? Or did it just become obvious after Game 2 of the first round? And to whoever asked - "ES" relates to E-Mini S&P. I am a futures trader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spotted Zebra Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 because he was evolving. The Canucks would have to admit that they made a mistake signing Lou to the big contract, upset team chemistry. What is obvious and should be to you, is that Lou is being traded and they are going with Schneider. Might it be that management think hes better? Not much a stretch is it ? Last season, Schneids outplayed Lou by a WIDE margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 OK, but how much patience do the Canucks have? You really want this Luongo circus to continue all year long, especially when there's a glaring hole at the 2C position, and, arguably, the entire second line and their ability to produce at all? There's also no guarantee that any further offers will be any better than Buyer 1's, in your example. I still have yet to hear a reasonable argument as to how Roberto Luongo's value will possibly increase as he plays second fiddle to Cory Schneider on the bench. The upside of "patience" is what? Some white knight is just going to swoop in, out of nowhere, and decide that they're interested in Luongo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Well first off Hodgson suffered injuries that limited his potential significantly. Couturier is better I will agree to that, is he going to become a vastly superior 1st or 2nd line center than Hodgson? I am not sure how you can claim that, both of these kids played on great teams and had amazing starts to the NHL, One is a play maker, one is physical, obviously Hodgson is going to develop a bit slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Get real canuck fans Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Maybe so, but put 2012 - 2013 Schneider on the 06/07 Canucks roster, and he comes NOWHERE CLOSE to the 49 wins Luongo got with that abomination of a team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the ES Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 First, that patience has already paid off in the form of Schneider still being a Canuck. To have moved him early before his value became clearer would have been selling short and low. A Bird in the Hand would be the analogy of choice here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Maybe so, but put 2012 - 2013 Schneider on the 06/07 Canucks roster, and he comes NOWHERE CLOSE to the 49 wins Luongo got with that abomination of a team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I wonder if Nonis meant Schroeder when he said that he'd only consider moving a young player for another young player at a different position. He might have interest in re-igniting that US WJHC tandem of JS & JVR. I wonder how that possibility might impact any three-way deals w/ the Flyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 2) Fleischmann, Mueller, Huberdeau, even Santorelli (not saying he is the answer but he did score 20 not that long ago) I think they will be fine, they have options and they won't need to score as much with the defensive help Luongo will bring, his addition will make up for the loss of offense and will make them a playoff team, when maybe they might not have been before. 3) Actually it is, he is 29 a pending UFA and won't resign in Florida, atleast it seems he won't. Those are all detractors. Simmonds had 28 Goals last year, is 24 so he still has alot of his prime left, and he brings more dimensions to him game than Weiss with the isze, grit, toughness, exc. Coburn who I think you underrate is Philly's best, most reliabile defensemen, plays in all situations and is the guy they count on the most out of anyone especially now with the loss of Pronger, and now that they also lost Meszaros & I believe some else (can't remember who) so they need help on defense and losing there top defensemen is only making a big hole even bigger for them, Couturier is one of the best young forwards in the game, only 20 and he is huge with great two way ability, high offensive ability, high defensive ability, size, skating, intangables, I think alot of people here underrate this guy to he is the complete package. I would take all of them over Weiss with the way it currently stands, they are all more valuable right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remy Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 2) Aside from Weiss, they have Goc, Matthias, Huberdeau, Bjugstad, Mueller, Santorelli, Shore... Lots of youth, lots of depth, but no real top 1 and 2 at this point. Doesn't it make a lot more sense to move one of the other pieces as opposed to your rarest, the veteran #1? Who knows about Weiss' intentions - people get carried away thinking they know whether a guy will or will not re-sign. Only a handful of people have any real idea. 29 is a detractor? 3) Philadelphia's blueline - Timmonen (whom you missed - a 43 point guy last year), Mezaros was not lost (Carle and Kubina were), Coburn is good but not their #1 and not nearly as good as our top four left side guys (Hamhius and Edler) - Coburn is not their cornerstone - he's a very good player, but you are over-rating him. Schenn, Grossman, MA Bourdon... Philly's blueline is not as sparse as you suggest - I've also included Ballard or Edler in my proposals where Coburn is involved, realizing they probably can't afford to move him without a top 4/6 guy coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I guess we agreed on 1) 2) Forgot about Goc and Mattias but I was talking about the top 2 lines, okay so there center depth chart without Weiss, seeing as Flesichmann would probably moved over seeing as he can play the position and brings the same if not more offensive production Weiss does, Flesichmann, Mueller, Goc, Mattias, Huberdeau, Goc. Santorelli. Flesichmann, Mueller and Huberdeau are all capable of bringing the offense needed to center the top 2 lines. Also with Weiss this is a player they are likely to lose, and there organization has to look at it for the future especially since they are really focusing on the future, To move Weiss for a big return now in Luongo, when they have some guys who can fill rather than trade him later for a lesser return or lose him altogether for nothing? Luongo will bring enough skill in goal to compensate for losing Weiss, so it is a good swap. 3) Andrej Meszaros is injured, and was earlier expected to be gone for possibly the season, he probably won't be ready for the start of the season and there is no exact time table for this return other than hoping that he will be ready shortly after the season, similar to Kesler here perhaps. There are also concerns on whether he will be able to regain his top form after 2 major surgeries. Kimmo Timonen was great last year and with the loss of Carle (Which is a huge loss for them, he was very important to their system, similar to Edler's situation here) Will be relied on even more, he came off back surgery and "had potentially related knee problems last year" Braydon Coburn is just as important to them as Hamhuis is to us, he is a major player for them and losing him is a huge loss with no one able to replace him, Weiss isn't more valueable than him. There are also injury concerns around Briere who likely won't start the season on time. So with the losses of Kubina and Carle, aswell as the loss of Meszaros who won't start the year, they are left with Timonen, Coburn, Schenn and Grossman in there top 4, Grossman was given a huge contract and he doesn't seem to be a top 4 guy, also concerns on whether Schenn can be a top 4 guy after a brutal season in Toronto. There defense has taken a huge hit, Coburn is way too valuable for them to give up. And it isn't about you adding Edler or Ballard, I was replying to you saying Weiss is more valuebale than Coburn, Simmonds and Couturier which he isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 in your opinion. and you made some sense, except where you liken Coburn to Hamhius... I don't agree regarding Weiss on either account - I don't want to see him as the centerpiece - I also think you are fundamentally undervaluing him/overvaluing the Flyers in question. This really stems from the fact that King finds if ludicrous to suggest that Luongo has as much value as either Couturier, Simmonds or Coburn, but sees Weiss as the target. If I were to mimic the style of a few folks in this thread, I would say "LOL - you don't think Luongo is worth a player who has yet to hit 50 points, a guy with 27 career points in the NHL, or a defenseman who has put up 59 points over the past three seasons, but you think he's worth the Panthers best forward who has scored 237 over the past four seasons. LOLZZZzz..." Even greater the irony - the vocal folks who found the Luongo, Ballard, Schroeder for Couturier, Simmonds, Coburn deal to be so absolutely ridiculous - as in the worst proposal they have ever heard - are the exact three guys proposing Luongo for Weiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the ES Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I don't agree regarding Weiss on either account - I don't want to see him as the centerpiece - I also think you are fundamentally undervaluing him/overvaluing the Flyers in question. This really stems from the fact that King finds if ludicrous to suggest that Luongo has as much value as either Couturier, Simmonds or Coburn, but sees Weiss as the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I don't think the Florida deal is "bad" Smashian - I don't think it makes sense to either side. But regarding value, let me give you a comparable. Jordan Staal has 248 career points in 6 NHL seasons as the Penguins 3rd line C. He was a pending UFA. He was traded for Brandon Sutter, Brian DuMoulin and a 1st. He then re-signed for $6 million a season. Weiss 237 in the past four (on the offensively challenged Panthers) Pending UFA. First line center. Will re-sign for $3.5? I don't think so Smashian. edit: ditto King. If the Canucks will need cap space under the reduced 64milion ceiling to re-sign Edler, Higgins, Lapierre, why would I be interested in Weiss in a different deal? What difference does it make whether it's Luongo or Kassian/Jensen? In Luongo's case there is cap going out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangelos Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 in your opinion. and you made some sense, except where you liken Coburn to Hamhius... I don't agree regarding Weiss on either account - I don't want to see him as the centerpiece - I also think you are fundamentally undervaluing him/overvaluing the Flyers in question. This really stems from the fact that King finds if ludicrous to suggest that Luongo has as much value as either Couturier, Simmonds or Coburn, but sees Weiss as the target. If I were to mimic the style of a few folks in this thread, I would say "LOL - you don't think Luongo is worth a player who has yet to hit 50 points, a guy with 27 career points in the NHL, or a defenseman who has put up 59 points over the past three seasons, but you think he's worth the Panthers best forward who has scored 237 over the past four seasons. LOLZZZzz..." Even greater the irony - the vocal folks who found the Luongo, Ballard, Schroeder for Couturier, Simmonds, Coburn deal to be so absolutely ridiculous - as in the worst proposal they have ever heard - are the exact three guys proposing Luongo for Weiss (who is a much better hockey player than Fleischmann). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 You don't just value players based off points. There are many other factors to value players such as contract situation, potential, age, and team needs. I value Couturier higher than Weiss not because of point total, but because he is young with huge upside, is not a ufa any time soon, and is very cheap. That being said, Weiss is still the best answer for the Canucks right NOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 So if Stephen Weiss is so valuable, I take it you would trade Kassian or Jensen for him? You're missing the fact that he's a pending UFA, and the rumors are out there that he's not interested in remaining in Florida. Kinda like how Luongo doesn't want to be here, that reduces the value of him to them; his days with the organization are numbered. And I cannot at all begin to understand your point about Weiss being more valuable than either Coburn, Couturier, or Simmonds. He's just not. I'd be shocked if any GM in the league would choose Weiss over any of those guys if they were to start a team today. You talked so glowingly about Lapierre a few pages back; imagine Lapierre as more of an intimidator, less of a pest, and scoring 28 goals; that's Wayne Simmonds for ya. And he's only 24. Very, very valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangelos Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I don't think the Florida deal is "bad" Smashian - I don't think it makes sense to either side. But regarding value, let me give you a comparable. Jordan Staal has 248 career points in 6 NHL seasons as the Penguins 3rd line C. He was a pending UFA. He was traded for Brandon Sutter, Brian DuMoulin and a 1st. He then re-signed for $6 million a season. Weiss 237 in the past four (on the offensively challenged Panthers) Pending UFA. First line center. Will re-sign for $3.5? I don't think so Smashian. edit: ditto King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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