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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 4.0


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#1321 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:30 PM

Your point only makes Luongo's relative value higher. The fact that the lines between a top 20 and top 40 blueliner are blurry, whereas there aren't exactly 40 guys vying for the top 20 in goaltending only serves to undermine your concept of value - top 20 goaltenders are more rare than the deeper blueline pool. Advantage teams with actual top 20 goaltenders.


How does it make his value higher, I said top 20 vs 20 I didn't say anything about top 40. My point was after about the top 15-20 the # of star goalies goes down, whereas for defensmen there are still plenty of top end defensemen.

If you think so then let's compare the value. Look beyond the top 20 in these two lists, even from 20-40 if you want, and tell me which list is more valuable.

Goalies: http://www.nhl.com/i...s.htm?id=640653
Defense: http://www.nhl.com/i...s.htm?id=640560
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#1322 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

The King's top line is Williams, Kopitar, Brown.
Carter and Richards are their second line.

Care to compare: people here are crazy if they think Luongo is a "backup"...

I've already adressed their contracts - I think you are quite mistaken.


Due to chemistry they were on the 2nd line, Kesler is better than Burrows but Burrows is on the 1st line, does that mean he is better than Kesler? Malkin plays on Pittsburgh's 2nd line does that mean he is a 2nd liner?

In Philly they were top line players, and they are still regarded as that, but LA saw and we have seen with Stanley cup finalist, that most of them have 2 top line quality centers. That is something Dean Lombardi mentioned when they made the Richards deal.

LA: Kopitar, Richards, Carter
Boston: Krejci, Bergeron
Vancouver: Henrik, Kesler
Chicago: Toews, Sharp
Philly: Richards, Carter
Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin
Detriot: Zetterberg, Datsyuk

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 10 January 2013 - 09:39 PM.

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#1323 oldnews

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:44 PM

I guess you missed a huge part of my post but that is okay, so I am off by 1-2 years, still not as bad as Lu's that take him to 42

And I guess you don't care what other fans think about there teams trade value, but I will ask you this, who do you trust more to make an accurate determination of Luongo's value? Canucks fans (Non-Luongo haters) or fans around the league in other markets? Probably Canuck fans.

That's the way NYI and TOR fans would feel too, I think they have a much better grasp on what there players are worth than us.


There is no "us" Smashian - there are wildly divergent opinions

Things change Bud

You know CLB was trying to use the PHL - LAK trade as a benchmark but it just wasn't happening.

Young players are just worth too dam much

Again.... the RICK NASH Trade

CLB
F Artem Anisimov
F Brandon Dubinsky
D Tim Erixon
1st

NY
F RICK NASH
D Steve Delisle
Conditional 3rd

Does anything CLB got even come close to one of either Simmons, Couturier, Gardiner, Reilly, Vorachek or B Schenn?

this is what Nonis thinks

@Michael_Traikos: #Leafs Nonis to Hockey Central on trading Gardiner or Rielly: "We would only move a young playuer for another young player." #Luongo

If you want Simmons, Couturier, Gardiner, Reilly, Vorachek or B Schenn get ready to throw in Jenson or Frankie C


There is a similarity there - Nash was known to be on his way out.
But on the other hand, it was Howson doing the negotiating.
And personally, I'm not a Nash fan, so I'm not about to argue that he is worth the five pieces Howson wanted.
Still, I don't see Anisimov and Dubinsky as that bad of a return for him... and 24 years old is still young as far as I'm concerned - pretty much ideal actually. Throw in Erixson and a 1st and I'm not sure CBJ did so badly.
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#1324 oldnews

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

How does it make his value higher, I said top 20 vs 20 I didn't say anything about top 40. My point was after about the top 15-20 the # of star goalies goes down, whereas for defensmen there are still plenty of top end defensemen.

If you think so then let's compare the value. Look beyond the top 20 in these two lists, even from 20-40 if you want, and tell me which list is more valuable.

Goalies: http://www.nhl.com/i...s.htm?id=640653
Defense: http://www.nhl.com/i...s.htm?id=640560


You'll have to help me with your logic.
Luongo is ranked 16th in a pool of rarer commodities.
Richards is 24th among centers...
Carter is 32nd (a RW btw)...
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#1325 oldnews

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:49 PM

Due to chemistry they were on the 2nd line, Kesler is better than Burrows but Burrows is on the 1st line, does that mean he is better than Kesler? Malkin plays on Pittsburgh's 2nd line does that mean he is a 2nd liner?

In Philly they were top line players, and they are still regarded as that, but LA saw and we have seen with Stanley cup finalist, that most of them have 2 top line quality centers. That is something Dean Lombardi mentioned when they made the Richards deal.

LA: Kopitar, Richards, Carter
Boston: Krejci, Bergeron
Vancouver: Henrik, Kesler
Chicago: Toews, Sharp
Philly: Richards, Carter
Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin
Detriot: Zetterberg, Datsyuk


You forgot Schneider, Luongo.
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#1326 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

You'll have to help me with your logic.
Luongo is ranked 16th in a pool of rarer commodities.
Richards is 24th among centers...
Carter is 32nd (a RW btw)...


My logic is pretty obvious. I left specific instructions with the post I didn't leave the links for you to figure out what to do:


If you think so then let's compare the value. Look beyond the top 20 in these two lists, even from 20-40 if you want, and tell me which list is more valuable.


And like I said earlier, there is alot more depth in the skaters lists, so naturally they would be futher down with more competition, if there were that many star goaltender you have to think Lu would be further down aswell, and even 16th isn't that good of a spot for him IMO.
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#1327 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:57 PM

There is no "us" Smashian - there are wildly divergent opinions


That's why I said non-Luongo haters, basiclly people who are nuetral and see that Luongo is a great goalie and worth significant value, but also that we are handcuffed by the circumstances.

Then go look at reasonable fans on other boards who have a pretty good knowlodge of players around the league, ask them about that deal and what those players are worth.

You forgot Schneider, Luongo.


Out of all of those teams only 2 had a tandem of starting quality goalies. That number is cut in half when u are looking at winners. Way to blatantly avoid the point of my post though.
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#1328 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:08 PM

I don't know, I'd really rather have Giroux than Simmonds.


PHI
Luongo
Ballard
Schroeder

VAN
Giroux
Coburn
Couturier

All Canucks problems are solved; 2C, 3C, DD, toughness, youth, grit, all are served.
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#1329 oldnews

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:08 PM

That's why I said non-Luongo haters, basiclly people who are nuetral and see that Luongo is a great goalie and worth significant value, but also that we are handcuffed by the circumstances.


You're sounding an awful lot like King.
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#1330 Pears

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:09 PM

PHI
Luongo
Ballard
Schroeder

VAN
Giroux
Coburn
Couturier

All Canucks problems are solved; 2C, 3C, DD, toughness, youth, grit, all are served.

I really hope you know King was being sarcastic.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1331 oldnews

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

Gillis gonna rock this return. That is all. GN.
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#1332 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

Problem with Lu going to Philly is, who would they dump Bryz on?


Edmonton? LOL.
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GO CANUCKS GO!
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#1333 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

You're sounding an awful lot like King.


Yeah the guy I argue with non-stop.

I'm just able to see the reality that there are some major negatives and turn offs in the negotiation (10 years left, 33 years old, penalty for the contract, struggles with consistentcy, wants out, we have to move him before next season, there is a small market)

I do think he will get us a solid return, & toronto will benefit big time from getting him. with Nonis I could see: Kadri, Frattin/Biggs, 1st. And under the circumstances that's pretty good IMO, better than what is being speculated about by all the media and alot of fans.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 10 January 2013 - 10:18 PM.

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#1334 Noheart

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:21 PM

PHI
Luongo
Ballard
Schroeder

VAN
Giroux
Coburn
Couturier

All Canucks problems are solved; 2C, 3C, DD, toughness, youth, grit, all are served.


Ladies and gentlemen

Behold

The most one sided trade proposal in the history of CDC

Congratulations 101
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BEASTLY!!!

#1335 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:29 PM

A friendly reminder of those thinking we're doing the wrong thing by trading Luongo. Cam Ward was the backup to Martin Gerber for Carolina back in 2005-06, and he played only 28 games prior to the cup run, and the Hurricanes did win.

Antti Niemi (Remember him?) played only 39 games as backup to Christobal Huet, before winning a Stanley Cup.

So there is precedent for inexperienced goalies winning cups. A short season benefits Schneider as he can play 30-38 games and still be "fresh" for the playoffs. Shouldn't we trade Luongo and get the best value we can and keep our team competitive for the cup for a longer window?

Edited by Ghostsof1915, 10 January 2013 - 10:30 PM.

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#1336 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:42 PM

Ladies and gentlemen

Behold

The most one sided trade proposal in the history of CDC

Congratulations 101


Actually I think:

TO NYI:
Roberto Luongo
Keith Ballard


TO VAN:
Travis Hamonic
Kyle Okposo
Brock Nelson
Rick Dipietro
Ville Pokka
2013 1st
2014 1st




Might challenge that proposal for the title of most lopsided proposal.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 10 January 2013 - 10:44 PM.

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#1337 Cucumber

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:49 PM

A friendly reminder of those thinking we're doing the wrong thing by trading Luongo. Cam Ward was the backup to Martin Gerber for Carolina back in 2005-06, and he played only 28 games prior to the cup run, and the Hurricanes did win.

Antti Niemi (Remember him?) played only 39 games as backup to Christobal Huet, before winning a Stanley Cup.

So there is precedent for inexperienced goalies winning cups. A short season benefits Schneider as he can play 30-38 games and still be "fresh" for the playoffs. Shouldn't we trade Luongo and get the best value we can and keep our team competitive for the cup for a longer window?


Perfect examples what might be the season for the canucks. we were within 1 game of winning it all with much of the same players still here little older more experience if kassian can impress early on in the season(maybe with sedins) and our d has no injury and kesler comes back intime for playoffs while schoreder get some experience. with the lu trade i am expecting 2/3 line power forward and pickand/or high prospeck

sedins kassian
booth schroeder/lu trade player burrows
hansen lappy/schroeder higgins
lappy/? manny ?

u know our d is top 5 if not top3 and our goalies top3 with lu after lu top 5still if schnieder is good

Actually I think:

TO NYI:
Roberto Luongo
Keith Ballard


TO VAN:
Rick Dipiteiro
Travis Hamonic
Kyle Okposo
Brock Nelson
Ville Pokka
2013 1st
2014 1st


Might challenge that proposal for the title of most lopsided proposal.

i can challenge
to pitt
ballard
booth
raymond
luongo
7th round pick 2013and 2014

to van
crosby
malkin
letang
1st round pick for next 3drafts
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#1338 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:56 PM

Perfect examples what might be the season for the canucks. we were within 1 game of winning it all with much of the same players still here little older more experience if kassian can impress early on in the season(maybe with sedins) and our d has no injury and kesler comes back intime for playoffs while schoreder get some experience. with the lu trade i am expecting 2/3 line power forward and pickand/or high prospeck

sedins kassian
booth schroeder/lu trade player burrows
hansen lappy/schroeder higgins
lappy/? manny ?

u know our d is top 5 if not top3 and our goalies top3 with lu after lu top 5still if schnieder is good

i can challenge
to pitt
ballard
booth
raymond
luongo
7th round pick 2013and 2014

to van
crosby
malkin
letang
1st round pick for next 3drafts


Did u actually see that proposed? Realistically not as a joke? Cause I actually saw the one I said realistically proposed.
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#1339 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:58 PM

I really hope you know King was being sarcastic.


I don't think he was. He knows Luongo's value, Schroeder's value as well as Ballard's. the rest of the league also has an adequate assessment of the value of all three players. Only Vancouver fans drag Luongo in the mud; they're just very pissed at the results of the past three years.

I see it as having lost to the eventual Cup winner.
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#1340 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:30 PM

I don't think he was. He knows Luongo's value, Schroeder's value as well as Ballard's. the rest of the league also has an adequate assessment of the value of all three players. Only Vancouver fans drag Luongo in the mud; they're just very pissed at the results of the past three years.

I see it as having lost to the eventual Cup winner.


It's King of ES, of course he was being Sarcastic

And Giroux is worth more than entire that package alone.

adding Couturier who could be their 2nd or 3rd top asset aswell as there top defensmen when they are weak on D only makes the entire thing astronomically worse.
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#1341 oldnews

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:48 PM

Did u actually see that proposed? Realistically not as a joke? Cause I actually saw the one I said realistically proposed.



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#1342 The Bookie

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

I like the idea of this trade.

Lu+raymond for Gardiner+1st+3rd

Gardiner+Edler for Both Schenns, Leighton, 3rd

Edler= L Schenn+Leighton+3rd
Lu= B Schenn+1st
Raymond= 3rd

Get our backups
Get our RHD
Get our 2/3 center
get 3 picks we can use to play around at trade deadline.


hmmm. Creative. Points for originality.
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#1343 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KANI2dpXLw


Thanks for the chuckle bud.
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#1344 oldnews

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:08 AM

Yeah the guy I argue with non-stop.

I do think he will get us a solid return, & toronto will benefit big time from getting him. with Nonis I could see: Kadri, Frattin/Biggs, 1st. And under the circumstances that's pretty good IMO, better than what is being speculated about by all the media and alot of fans.


Yes, the irony.
Where is King? Did you wear him out?

Kadri, Biggs, and a 1st you say?
Interesting.
That would be a 7th overall pick, another first round pick who's the Leafs best forward prospect, and yet another first round pick.

Aren't you the authority who is always first in - 'they'd-never-do-that'...
Well let's look at this proposal.
They're really big on Biggs. Bigger than the Isles on Nelson, that is for certain. And the Leafs are much, much harder up for prospects.
They'll never trade another 1st, they learned their lesson in the Kessel deal (could turn out to be a Seguin, Hamilton - or even worse, Reilly, the next #1 d-man! lol).
Sound familiar?

You're like the jekyll/hyde version of King.
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#1345 oldnews

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:11 AM

You are welcome.

Edited by oldnews, 11 January 2013 - 12:21 AM.

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#1346 Noheart

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:16 AM

Actually I think:

TO NYI:
Roberto Luongo
Keith Ballard


TO VAN:
Travis Hamonic
Kyle Okposo
Brock Nelson
Rick Dipietro
Ville Pokka
2013 1st
2014 1st




Might challenge that proposal for the title of most lopsided proposal.


The Dipietro moves it into 2nd IMO

your still #1 101

does anyone else think he is just being extremly sarcastic in every post.
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#1347 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:27 AM

Yes, the irony.
Where is King? Did you wear him out?

Kadri, Biggs, and a 1st you say?
Interesting.
That would be a 7th overall pick, another first round pick who's the Leafs best forward prospect, and yet another first round pick.

Aren't you the authority who is always first in - 'they'd-never-do-that'...
Well let's look at this proposal.
They're really big on Biggs. Bigger than the Isles on Nelson, that is for certain. And the Leafs are much, much harder up for prospects.
They'll never trade another 1st, they learned their lesson in the Kessel deal (could turn out to be a Seguin, Hamilton - or even worse, Reilly, the next #1 d-man! lol).
Sound familiar?

You're like the jekyll/hyde version of King.


Yeah maybe it isn't perfect, I didn't say it was a done deal. But I find it funny you are so hard on it after proposing 2 very lopsided deals.

Coburn, Simmonds, Couturier for Lu, JS and Ballard then that NYI trade is disgustingly lopsided.

Burke was high on Biggs cause he is American, gritty and big and all that buligerence crab, but Nonis obviously covets Luongo a bit more than Burke so perhaps he would part with him, by all accounts Kadri is in play, and I am not sure yet whether Nonis is willing to part with the first, although there is no chance that it will be a top 5 pick again unless some unforseen disaster happens, Luongo will surely get them into the playoffs and around the 20th overall range, I also find it funny you backup Lu's value non-stop then you say that they won't trade it just incase it is another top 5 or 10 pick.

It seems like sometimes Lu's value is sky high in your mind and other's it is at what King thinks, just decide.

You're welcome Smashian.
It's the counterpoint to trolling.
It's rick rolling, and yes, it is o.n.


I didn't realize you would be so "butt hurt" over me criticizing unrealistic trades, as I said I agree with alot of other things you say but I criticize alot of other people for terrible trades so It's only fair to criticize people I agree with sometimes aswell or else I'm spot picker, and i'm contradicting myself, and I don't like doing/being either.


The Dipietro moves it into 2nd IMO

your still #1 101

does anyone else think he is just being extremly sarcastic in every post.


101? Yeah perhaps, either that or he thinks Luongo is as consistent as he was 2 or 3 years ago, and that he is 24 with a 5 year deal at 4 Million per year.
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#1348 oldnews

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:35 AM

Actually I think:

TO NYI:
Roberto Luongo
Keith Ballard


TO VAN:
Travis Hamonic
Kyle Okposo
Brock Nelson
Rick Dipietro
Ville Pokka
2013 1st
2014 1st




Might challenge that proposal for the title of most lopsided proposal.

Luongo Ballard

Okposo, Hamonic, Nelson

Your proposal:
Luongo

Biggs, Kadri (who you're evidently taken quite a shine to) and a 1st

Okposo and Kadri - both #7 overall picks.
Biggs a 1st - Hamonic a 2nd.
Nelson a 1st - a 1st.
I've added Ballard - to a team that desperately needs a veteran blueliner.


The second part of my proposal:

Dipietro,
2 1sts, Pokka

Insert any team or marginal asset here - it makes no difference.
What do you think it will cost the Isles to sell off their $36 million debt to Dipietro / $24 million buyout?
What will be the cost of trying to keep him?
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#1349 DeNiro

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:37 AM

I can't believe TSN actually called Vancouver a goalie graveyard.

Sure we haven't had great luck with goalies here in the past, but what have the Leafs done exactly to not be a goalie graveyard?

And now they're begging for one of ours? I really hope Lu doesn't go to Toronto.
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#1350 oldnews

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:51 AM

Yeah maybe it isn't perfect, I didn't say it was a done deal. But I find it funny you are so hard on it after proposing 2 very lopsided deals.

Coburn, Simmonds, Couturier for Lu, JS and Ballard then that NYI trade is disgustingly lopsided.

Burke was high on Biggs cause he is American, gritty and big and all that buligerence crab, but Nonis obviously covets Luongo a bit more than Burke so perhaps he would part with him, by all accounts Kadri is in play, and I am not sure yet whether Nonis is willing to part with the first, although there is no chance that it will be a top 5 pick again unless some unforseen disaster happens, Luongo will surely get them into the playoffs and around the 20th overall range, I also find it funny you backup Lu's value non-stop then you say that they won't trade it just incase it is another top 5 or 10 pick.

It seems like sometimes Lu's value is sky high in your mind and other's it is at what King thinks, just decide.



I didn't realize you would be so "butt hurt" over me criticizing unrealistic trades, as I said I agree with alot of other things you say but I criticize alot of other people for terrible trades so It's only fair to criticize people I agree with sometimes aswell or else I'm spot picker, and i'm contradicting myself, and I don't like doing/being either.


You missed the point on both accounts Smashian.

First, I wasn't being hard on your proposal - I was responding to it in the way you consistently jump in and write off pretty much instantly what are actually comparable deals. I don't think that it's actually a bad proposal - I'm not interested in Kadri and would substitutes someone else, but criticizing the value you assessed was not my point. It was more of a mirroring thing.

You also missed the point of muppets, which is unfortunate. There was nothing butt hurt about that post. Don't take being rick rolled the wrong way. It's ok. Just pay it forward.
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