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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 4.0


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#1621 WHL rocks

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:44 PM



45]
2hPosted ImageHockeyy Insiderr@HockeyyInsiderr
@sbrar96 @strombone1 it's not creepy. I have numerous contacts within the industry. I can contact ANYONE NHL related. Including Bettman.

LOl, take it for what it's worth but Luongo hasn't denied that those are last 4 digits so far.


Edited by WHL rocks, 12 January 2013 - 04:51 PM.

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#1622 oldnews

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:46 PM

:lol: I knew you were going to say this, I was just waiting.

So Cody Hodgson isn't great on faceoffs, does that mean he isn't a center? Jordan Schroeder isn't great on faceoffs, does that mean he isn't a center?

Center is more about positioning than faceoffs (though faceoffs are still important) Your reaching for something to backup your argument. Fleischmann is perfectly capable of playing center, he has in Colorado and Washington, He was converted to LW after the Booth trade to fill Booth's spot.


You were waiting and that's what you come up with?
Kids usually aren't very good in the face-off circle - it takes time - like it takes blueliners seasons to weather - to become a strong faceoff guy. Few young players are. But Fleischmann isn't a kid - he's a veteran - and he's a winger. And if it were up to me, I'd convert Hodgson to a winger as well.
Regarding positioning being the key part of the (defensive side of) center, did you miss the part that says...
"His play without the puck... generally lacking."

Fleischmann is spoon fed offensive zone starts in Florida, and still he has an average relative corsi. Why would someone with the hockey intelligence of Dale Tallon convert him to a center?

Edited by oldnews, 12 January 2013 - 04:56 PM.

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#1623 Dogbyte

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

i agree with you, people seem to knock his defensive game too much. His foot speed doesnt allow him to stand out defensively like hansen or burrows but he is a very intelligent player and far from being bad defensively. He got robbed of the mvp at the wjhc in my opinion because he played in all situations, including the pk.


Yeah he was far and away the best player in that tournament. He even drove the PP.
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"What players need is the right kind of strength and power. That includes learning to understand that leverage and positioning can be just as important as raw strength when it comes to winning battles in the game. It's more about timing and athleticism --and avoiding injury--than it is about how much you can bench press. I don't know how many times I've seen a guy with the physique of a defensive end line up a guy half his size, only to bounce off when he connects. Sure, there is room in the game for big guys who can throw their weight around. But for the most part, players are smart enough to see them coming--and strong enough to protect the puck when they arrive. There are trainers out there who know how to devlop hockey-specific strength--though a trainer can help only if a player follows the program. All too often, I've seen players sign up with the best trainer, but not show up for their workouts and never to reap the benefits."

 

Bobby Orr - ORR MY STORY Viking 2013


#1624 WHL rocks

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

Because any winger can be converted into a center overnight...right.
Fleischmann is not a center/winger - he's a winger.


I'm not 100% sure but just off memory I think he played some center on the Caps the last time he was there.
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#1625 King of the ES

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

AHA!! The guy you call the "backup" with no value is in your opinion the true starter hahaha!


And you continue to completely ignore Luongo's age and contract, like he's the same 27 year-old guy that we traded for back in 2006.

OK, oldnews, good luck with that. I wouldn't be going out and ordering a Sean Couturier or Wayne Simmonds Canuck jersey quite yet, though.

Edited by King of the ES, 12 January 2013 - 04:51 PM.

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#1626 Spotted Zebra

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

SERGEI SHIROKOVVVVVV
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Thanks Vintage Canuck!

#1627 Merci

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

I agree with this, Couturier, Gardiner, Schenn, exc. Are off limits to us.

Of all the pieces potentially on the table from all the teams, I think Weiss is the best (Aside from the fact he is a Pending UFA) He would be the missing piece to our 2nd line IMO.



You guys are delusional.

Couturier for Luongo straight up makes total sense.

It's basically Hodgson for Miller.

How is this a pipe dream.

You're vastly underestimating what it's like to have a cup winning team and no goalie, they can afford to lose their 5th C
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#1628 thad

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

And to whoever asked - "ES" relates to E-Mini S&P. I am a futures trader.


Ahhh ic.. Explains your passion in arguing about value I guess haha
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#1629 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

You were waiting and that's what you come up with?
Kids usually aren't very good in the face-off circle - it takes time - like it takes blueliners seasons to weather - to become a strong faceoff guy. Few young players are. But Fleischmann isn't a kid - he's a veteran - and he's a winger. And if it were up to me, I'd convert Hodgson to a winger as well.
Regarding positioning being the key part of the (defensive side of) center, did you miss the part that says...
"His play without the puck... generally lacking."


His play without the puck is generally lacking, regardless of what position he is that wasn't sucluded to just center.

I guess since his play with the puck is lacking he shouldn't play Wing either, maybe they should put him on defense, or in goal.

I have already proven that he is capable of playing Center, and even others have noted this too.

If your going to continue to your argument that he can't play center and is strictly a winger, I would like to see a source or something reliable that he isn't and never has been capable of slotting down the middle.
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#1630 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

You guys are delusional.

Couturier for Luongo straight up makes total sense.

It's basically Hodgson for Miller.

How is this a pipe dream.

You're vastly underestimating what it's like to have a cup winning team and no goalie, they can afford to lose their 5th C


:lol:

Couturier >>>>>>> Hodgson

Miller also doesn't have a huge contract that requires the team to take on significant penalties, and it hasn't been publicized that he would like to leave and that Buffalo has to move him.

If the Flyers weren't willing to include Couturier or Schenn in a deal for Shea Weber, what makes you think they would be willing to for Luongo.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 12 January 2013 - 04:56 PM.

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#1631 oldnews

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

His play without the puck is generally lacking, regardless of what position he is that wasn't sucluded to just center.


You just said it yourself Smashian. if the guy is a poor defensive winger, you sure as hell don't convert him to a center.
Bad idea, bad option - simple as that. Cammalleri is "capable" of playing center as well - he's still a winger, and a lousy option.
And Weiss isn't the missing piece imo - I don't think either are realistic on either side of the equation. Bad move for Florida when there are other options, and not a good fit for Vancouver.

Edited by oldnews, 12 January 2013 - 05:06 PM.

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#1632 VIC_CITY

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

If it's so obvious that Schneider is the better goaltender, why wasn't he the starter for the whole season? Or did it just become obvious after Game 2 of the first round?

And to whoever asked - "ES" relates to E-Mini S&P. I am a futures trader.


Seriously? How many NHL games did CS have under his belt before last season?

Before last year we thought CS was going to be good. After last year, we KNOW he is going to be GREAT.
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#1633 oldnews

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:03 PM

:lol:

If the Flyers weren't willing to include Couturier or Schenn in a deal for Shea Weber, what makes you think they would be willing to for Luongo.


What?
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#1634 Merci

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:04 PM

:lol:

Couturier >>>>>>> Hodgson

Miller also doesn't have a huge contract that requires the team to take on significant penalties, and it hasn't been publicized that he would like to leave and that Buffalo has to move him.

If the Flyers weren't willing to include Couturier or Schenn in a deal for Shea Weber, what makes you think they would be willing to for Luongo.


Well first off Hodgson suffered injuries that limited his potential significantly. Couturier is better I will agree to that, is he going to become a vastly superior 1st or 2nd line center than Hodgson? I am not sure how you can claim that, both of these kids played on great teams and had amazing starts to the NHL, One is a play maker, one is physical, obviously Hodgson is going to develop a bit slower.

Luongo's contract is hardly a problem to Philly look what they gave Bryzgalov.

And how do you know Nashville offered Weber for Couturier?


You're making it sound impossible when in reality Gillis is in no shape or form not getting a young prospect back for Luongo. He'd rather trade Schneider for a bonafied 2nd liner than trade Luongo to where he wants to go for an UFA Stephen Weiss.

Trading Luongo for anything other than a young player that is a lock to become a 1st or 2nd line player will be a mistake.

"B-b-but his contract"

Yea w/e you say if a top goalie isn't tradeable because he isn't on a 5 year "normal" deal. Than I rather lose Cory and get a Corey Perry like player in a package.
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

vPTJpcO.jpg


#1635 Kulikov

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

You guys are delusional.

Couturier for Luongo straight up makes total sense.

It's basically Hodgson for Miller.

How is this a pipe dream.

You're vastly underestimating what it's like to have a cup winning team and no goalie, they can afford to lose their 5th C


Please say you're joking, it's getting embarrassing how many boobs know nothing about Couturier or hockey for that matter.
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#1636 Merci

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:11 PM

Please say you're joking, it's getting embarrassing how many boobs know nothing about Couturier or hockey for that matter.


Luongo would have taken Philly past NJ, and NY

Couterier has no place with Briere, Giroux, and Talbot.

You know nothing of hockey.
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

vPTJpcO.jpg


#1637 WiDeN

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

I've had a very firm position this whole time - you pretty clearly just have difficulties comprehending it.

It's actually quite simple; the Canucks should've traded Schneider while his value was sky-high, ideally after the 2010-11 Cup run. We could've gotten back something of great value from a whole lot of teams - Schneider has no NTC.

Since Gillis made the wrong move by doing nothing, we've been backed into a position where we're being forced to move Roberto Luongo. Two negatives there:

  • Being "forced" to sell something immediately reduces your bargaining position
  • Lots of constraints around Luongo: NTC, old, expensive, signed until 2022.
All of these things reduce our bargaining position. Have I ever said that Luongo's not any good? NO! My entire issue with this thing is that Gillis got too greedy with his two goaltenders, and we're now selling a good asset in Luongo with very little leverage in a weak market. Schneider would've gotten us a lot more in return and it's debatable as to who the better goaltender is, at this point.

Understand yet? Or do you need pictures/diagrams?

Almost all the media (Toronto based I might add) seem to put Luongo's value pretty high. They all seem to think he'll go for more than you've been saying. I heard on Edmonton radio Mark Spector say that no combination of Paajarvi, Gagner, and prospects (not including Yak) could fetch Luongo or any major piece.
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#1638 Pears

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

Luongo would have taken Philly past NJ, and NY

Couterier has no place with Briere, Giroux, and Talbot.

You know nothing of hockey.

Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
Voracek - Schenn - Simmonds
Read - Talbot - Couturier

Please tell me where Couturier doesn't fit in that top 9.

Edited by Steven Stamkos' Mullet, 12 January 2013 - 05:29 PM.

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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1639 VIC_CITY

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

And you continue to completely ignore Luongo's age and contract, like he's the same 27 year-old guy that we traded for back in 2006.

OK, oldnews, good luck with that. I wouldn't be going out and ordering a Sean Couturier or Wayne Simmonds Canuck jersey quite yet, though.



See, how I look at it is 90% of NHL owners/GMs are NOT willing to overlook Luongo's contract. But 10% are because they're desperate and if you're MG, those 10% are going to have to pay pretty close to fair market value for a goalie of Luongo's caliber, despite the contract because MG is now in a position of power (especially now that Van is on the hook for him if he retires).
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#1640 Dogbyte

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

Wasn't he a center on the caps?


Absolutely, beat me to it. And a good one at that.
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"What players need is the right kind of strength and power. That includes learning to understand that leverage and positioning can be just as important as raw strength when it comes to winning battles in the game. It's more about timing and athleticism --and avoiding injury--than it is about how much you can bench press. I don't know how many times I've seen a guy with the physique of a defensive end line up a guy half his size, only to bounce off when he connects. Sure, there is room in the game for big guys who can throw their weight around. But for the most part, players are smart enough to see them coming--and strong enough to protect the puck when they arrive. There are trainers out there who know how to devlop hockey-specific strength--though a trainer can help only if a player follows the program. All too often, I've seen players sign up with the best trainer, but not show up for their workouts and never to reap the benefits."

 

Bobby Orr - ORR MY STORY Viking 2013


#1641 oldnews

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

Luongo would have taken Philly past NJ, and NY

Couterier has no place with Briere, Giroux, and Talbot.

You know nothing of hockey.


Briere is a RW, Giroux is a RW who plays center - Couturier would fit on any team - and I'd give you Cody Hodgson, his twin brother, and Brayden Schenn's older brother for him...
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#1642 Kulikov

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

Luongo would have taken Philly past NJ, and NY

Couterier has no place with Briere, Giroux, and Talbot.

You know nothing of hockey.


Right, so that's why Couturier was matched up against Malkin in the playoffs.. a natural assignment for a 19 year old "5th center", he's as valuable as RNH do get a clue. Every center there except Giroux will get traded before Couturier including Schenn. Though it should be noted Philly is trying to convert Couts to a center, he is a natural LW.

Edited by Kulikov, 12 January 2013 - 05:23 PM.

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#1643 Shekers

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
Couturier - Schenn - Simmonds
Read - Talbot - Wellwood

Please tell me where Couturier doesn't fit in that top 9.



You left out Voracek. But you're right, Couturier could fit in the top 9...just like Hodgson could have fit in our top 9. But Couturier is naturally a center. Center is where Philly have a LOT of depth. It is a position they can sacrifice youth for a world class goalie.

It's not impossible. Of all the trade ideas, couturier is one of the more possible ones.
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#1644 oldnews

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

See, how I look at it is 90% of NHL owners/GMs are NOT willing to overlook Luongo's contract. But 10% are because they're desperate and if you're MG, those 10% are going to have to pay pretty close to fair market value for a goalie of Luongo's caliber, despite the contract because MG is now in a position of power (especially now that Van is on the hook for him if he retires).


Luongo's contract is an overstatement of the issue - it's more specific - the term - the cap hit/salary put him in a class with comparables like Bryzgalov, Fleury, Price, Ward, Kipper, Backstrom, Hiller, Dipietro... In that class, he looks just fine.
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#1645 Pears

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

You left out Voracek. But you're right, Couturier could fit in the top 9...just like Hodgson could have fit in our top 9. But Couturier is naturally a center. Center is where Philly have a LOT of depth. It is a position they can sacrifice youth for a world class goalie.

Ah, my mistake. My post has been edited.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#1646 oldnews

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

OK, oldnews, good luck with that. I wouldn't be going out and ordering a Sean Couturier or Wayne Simmonds Canuck jersey quite yet, though.


You wouldn't - because you already spent all your money on a Laffs Luongo jersey... :lol:
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#1647 Merci

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

Right, so that's why Couturier was matched up against Malkin in the playoffs.. a natural assignment for a 19 year old "5th center", he's as valuable as RNH do get a clue. Every center there except Giroux will get traded before Couturier including Schenn. Though it should be noted Philly is trying to convert Couts to a center, he is a natural LW.


I am undervaluing Couturier I will admit to that.


This is a matter of Philly not having a goalie, having a ton of center depth, and whether or not there is a 3 way trade to get Bryz out of there with a return.
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

vPTJpcO.jpg


#1648 King of the ES

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

You're vastly underestimating what it's like to have a cup winning team and no goalie, they can afford to lose their 5th C


Explain to me how/where/why Luongo is such an upgrade over Bryzgalov that they can afford to both buyout Bryzgalov and part ways with perhaps the most promising 20 year-old C in the NHL to do accommodate him.

Oldnews ignored my question, so hopefully you can provide some clarity to this mystery.

Edited by King of the ES, 12 January 2013 - 05:36 PM.

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#1649 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

You just said it yourself Smashian. if the guy is a poor defensive winger, you sure as hell don't convert him to a center.
Bad idea, bad option - simple as that. Cammalleri is "capable" of playing center as well - he's still a winger, and a lousy option.
And Weiss isn't the missing piece imo - I don't think either are realistic on either side of the equation. Bad move for Florida when there are other options, and not a good fit for Vancouver.


I phrased it wrong, I should have quoted you cause personally after watching all the NJ and FLA games in the playoffs he seemed fine to me.

Cammalleri is like Kessel, niether had the experiance at center Fleischmann has but volunteered (Kessel atleast) to try center.

I think this is pretty much done as I have already proven he can play center, so I'll move onto the Weiss thing.

Weiss would be a great fit here IMO, he has great chemistry with Booth, is a great playmaker, would fit well with Kesler and Booth if you ask me. He brings it all and is a veteran, if you pay attention to him throughout his career (not trying to take a shot at you saying you don't just in general) then you will see there isn't much not to like, he is solid defensively and offensively is the exact player we need and the previous Chemistry with Booth only adds to it.
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#1650 oldnews

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

I phrased it wrong, I should have quoted you cause personally after watching all the NJ and FLA games in the playoffs he seemed fine to me.

Cammalleri is like Kessel, niether had the experiance at center Fleischmann has but volunteered (Kessel atleast) to try center.

I think this is pretty much done as I have already proven he can play center, so I'll move onto the Weiss thing.

Weiss would be a great fit here IMO, he has great chemistry with Booth, is a great playmaker, would fit well with Kesler and Booth if you ask me. He brings it all and is a veteran, if you pay attention to him throughout his career (not trying to take a shot at you saying you don't just in general) then you will see there isn't much not to like, he is solid defensively and offensively is the exact player we need and the previous Chemistry with Booth only adds to it.


I'm not knocking Weiss.
I am saying:
1) he will command over 5 million when re-signing
2) Florida will have a whack of teenage offensive centers if they were to move him
3) his value is not lower than Simmonds, Coburn, or Couturier. As much as I love Couturier - and would like to see him in a deal more so than virtually anyone - he is still a young player who hasn't established the market value of a 60 point player (on an offensively challenged team like Florida). I want Couturier primarily because of the type of player he is, the stage of his career that he is at, and the way I think he'd fit in - not to mention another year before his ELC contract expires - a very opportune set of circumstances - but I don't see his value as higher than a top line veteran like Weiss.
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