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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 4.0


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#2431 King of the ES

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

I think if anyone can afford to give us a first it would be Florida. They are so stacked with prospects, I would really try to get their first if they aren't willing to budge on bjugstad..


Why would they do that because they can "afford" to? Florida isn't in the business of doing favours for the Vancouver Canucks, which our last two trades with them should be support for.

The reality is that Gillis appears to be asking for far more than what any team is willing to pay - otherwise, and obviously, this deal would already be done. I have no idea how Gillis expects the offers to get better, with time, but that's just my opinion. Point is that what people can "afford" to give away is not relevant. Gillis is playing the "patient" card, and I think it'll backfire.
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#2432 Yotes

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

luongo, sauve, sweatt

for

goc, shore, petrovic, clemmenson

we get a good 2 way 3rd line center who is signed next year aswell, and 2 fairly decent prospects. Id say shore would be our best forward prospect right near schroeder, and petrovic is right around or just above connauton. half decent back up aswell
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#2433 Trebreh

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

mg gets fired


theres a new draft lottery system now, I dont think Florida will get in the playoff even with Luongo in net. They played well over their heads last season and Garrison being a top shutdown Dman for them also helped.

That 1st could be a top 5 pick or a 1st overall if were lucky.

Matthias is everything we need in a 3rd line centre, good checker, big, young and fights.

Malhotra is a UFA by the end of the season thats why i threw in Rodin or Schroeder in there as a bait.
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#2434 Anti-Bettman

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:46 PM

As someone who's had panic attacks, that's spooks the hell out of me. Maybe Luongo is the way to go, but who knows?


It IS an incredible amount of pressure for a rookie goalie to handle. But there is a difference between a panic attack and anxiety. To me this doesn't change my view of Schneider's capabilities to be a #1 goalie because of the way he has bounced back from this experience and by the looks of it learned how to deal with these kinds of situations better. Personally I think last years regular season game against Boston would have been just as stressful for him (the team trying to get some revenge and playing in front of his hometown and family) and he handled himself very well in that game. As well as playing stellar in the LA series when he took over the #1 role. No doubt in my mind Schneids will be able step up and perform.
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#2435 Vansicle

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

Why would they do that because they can "afford" to? Florida isn't in the business of doing favours for the Vancouver Canucks, which our last two trades with them should be support for.

The reality is that Gillis appears to be asking for far more than what any team is willing to pay - otherwise, and obviously, this deal would already be done. I have no idea how Gillis expects the offers to get better, with time, but that's just my opinion. Point is that what people can "afford" to give away is not relevant. Gillis is playing the "patient" card, and I think it'll backfire.

I think you want it to backfire.
The further they get from the playoff flameout that convinced the organization that CS was the go-to goal-tender, the more people will forget Lou's shortcomings and base his value to them on stats, and the more return Vancouver gets.
Believe me. I want Lou gone. I've never been a fan, despite appreciating his skillset and career stats. It makes no sense to just get rid of him because he's not your guy anymore - he still fills a role and has a value that can't be discarded. And until a few more chips have fallen where they may, we have no idea who is going to suddenly become available, especially in this truncated throw-away season. You don't want to buy someone for full price and have a better guy be on sale the next day.
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no duh.

You win the internet, EOM.

#2436 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:11 PM

Kadri is bigger and a talent, but not as dynamic as Hodgson. I suppose we could make that work?

I suggest go with work rate; Biggs is a lock 3rd line RW and possibly has the talent to be top 6? Get MacArthur, same reason, but helps RIGHT now (and gives TO more cap relief). As we get no bonafide blue chippers > a conditional first in this years draft if TO makes the play off's, next if they don't.The first is the real return for Lou! Lou could have walked 2 years ago, if we get a first and two lockdown hard nosed guys???


I think offensively Kadri is more dynamic, and he is faster & more mobile which adds another dynamic, Hodgson is a bit more defensive minded although he hasn't shown it much at this level yet, they are probably equally dynamic, Kadri is ready to step in and play too, we could really use him on the 2nd line,

So McArthur, Biggs, conditional 1st round pick (if McArthur walks?)

Not bad, I think they would be hesitant to give up biggs though, I think we could get the same deal with Kadri expect make the pick a conditional 2nd.
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#2437 thad

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:29 PM

Why would they do that because they can "afford" to? Florida isn't in the business of doing favours for the Vancouver Canucks, which our last two trades with them should be support for.

The reality is that Gillis appears to be asking for far more than what any team is willing to pay - otherwise, and obviously, this deal would already be done. I have no idea how Gillis expects the offers to get better, with time, but that's just my opinion. Point is that what people can "afford" to give away is not relevant. Gillis is playing the "patient" card, and I think it'll backfire.


your right king.. getting a first round pick in the deal is way to much to ask for in exchange for a top ten goalie in the league.

my point is, a team like toronto is in dire need of first round picks and florida is not. just because you think hes worth a cap dump and a 3rd doesnt mean he actually is.. im not saying he's worth huberdeau or nothing, but a 1st round pick is not out of the question for florida.

do you actually think upshall howden 1st is a straight up no from tallon? i might even take that deal accepting that it is favoring florida.
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#2438 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

There are a lot of options with Kessel. They could trade him, for one. Another option would be to hang onto him and hope that they'd be able to sign a guy like Getzlaf as a UFA in the off-season (lots of cap space), which would totally change their team.


This is kinda sidestepping from your original "rebuild" argument no?

Their organization isn't going to rebuild after all the bandaiding they have done, they are going to add pieces and wait for their young players to become good enough that it will create a mix that will make them a highly competitive team.

And can we all just stop with the "the Kings simply got hot!" nonsense? Look at their roster. Mike Richards. Jeff Carter. Anze Kopitar. Dustin Brown. Drew Doughty. Jonathan Quick. Great character depth like Stoll, Greene, Mitchell, Williams. Underachieving is different than "squeaking into the playoffs and getting hot". Their roster is loaded, and that's why they won the Cup. You can't fluke your way to the finals on a "hot streak". To think that Toronto could somehow mimic a performance like theirs because they simply acquired Roberto Luongo is downright laughable.


Actually to some extent they did, no one was sure about anything heading into the playoffs, after we choked they gain confidence and caught fire, they were unachieving but I didn't seem like they were going to doing that.

Connolly waived implications:

Bozak and Kadri are going nowhere. Sorry Smashian, maybe you can start rooting for the leafs.

Here's my guess

Toronto still in and Nucks are asking/getting

Gardiner/Biggs and a 2nd


Gardiner isn't happening, we can wait till the next ice age and it won't happen, that won't change even if the Leafs season is on the brink of heading down the tubes, and that won't change in the offseason, I don't see how people can't understand that.

I guess we will wait till the offseason then, after moving 2 top 9 capables center's after Kadri impressed and made the team (Didn't you say he was a career AHLer btw?) Then Frattin will likely take the other spot, they are nuts thinking Bozak is the solution to the top line center spot though, & James Riemer hasn't had a good camp at all, even without Lombardi and Connolly moving Bozak + non roster prospects and a pick for Luongo is alot mroe beneifical to them than keeping Bozak.

I guess we will see what happens, Toronto doesn't seem to have anything to give up other than unmovables.
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#2439 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

Kadri is more dynamic than Hodgson???

Can't bite there. CoHo looks like he's starting the season as the Sabre's top line pivot. And for all the critique he got hurt 3 years ago getting in the work; and his recovery was cued by going at it even harder (but smarter). Sum; he's got the work rate! I'm not betting any money that Kadri outperforms a guy who plain works harder.

Kadri is an unmistakeable talent, but an upgrade on Wellwood not a core player until he proves that work ethic. He'll either be a steal or a bust and has more upside than Biggs. But the Canucks can really use a RW that does what he does, and TO still has Ashton as a prospect at that position. On an AV team that does not reward lack of effort I could see Bigg's being better for us and available?

edit; funny > I was also turned on to Bigg's 3 or 4 months ago (I am sure by yourself) and I started watching and became a fan. But it was in a response to one of my posts, asking for an alternate to Kadri, suggesting TO could not afford to give up a young centre when we all knew Connolly and others would not be around come 2013/14.

I think offensively Kadri is more dynamic, and he is faster & more mobile which adds another dynamic, Hodgson is a bit more defensive minded although he hasn't shown it much at this level yet, they are probably equally dynamic, Kadri is ready to step in and play too, we could really use him on the 2nd line,

So McArthur, Biggs, conditional 1st round pick (if McArthur walks?)

Not bad, I think they would be hesitant to give up biggs though, I think we could get the same deal with Kadri expect make the pick a conditional 2nd.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 17 January 2013 - 05:44 PM.

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#2440 King of the ES

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

I think you want it to backfire.


This is exactly the problem with so many proposals on this site. They're all so Canuck-friendly, without regard to the other side.

I don't "want" it to backfire, I am simply looking at the transaction from both sides. Why on earth would Florida or Toronto give us some sort of package consisting of multiple picks and high-end prospects/roster players when there's simply low demand for Luongo? This is where so many Canuck fans just stop thinking.

Nobody cares whether Luongo is a top-10 goalie or not. All that matters is the price that someone is willing to pay, which does not appear to be very high at all (as I expected) - certainly far less than what Gillis' ask currently is. Nobody will want to do any favours for the Vancouver Canucks.
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#2441 King of the ES

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:46 PM

This is kinda sidestepping from your original "rebuild" argument no?

Their organization isn't going to rebuild after all the bandaiding they have done, they are going to add pieces and wait for their young players to become good enough that it will create a mix that will make them a highly competitive team.


Getzlaf is a franchise player that would materially alter the course of the Maple Leafs, without question. Talk about a perfect setup man for Kessel.
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#2442 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:48 PM


the players that would help us now are

Tavares
Hamonic
Okposo
Moulson
Nielsen

because they have so little I think they pass on Lou and just continue to tank


And none of those are avaliable to us unless we want to do a 1 for 1 for Nielsen (no thanks!)

NYI just isn't a realistic possibility at this point

How would people feel about this trade with Florida:

To Van:

Jovanovski (salary dump)
Goc
Clemmensen
Petrovic or Howden
2nd round pick

To Florida:

Luongo
Raymond


Not a fan, the only things that intrigue me are Petrovic/Howden and the 2nd

Jovo is well past his prime (would rather Ballard - Tanev than Jovo) And he has a 35+ contract with 3 more years left or something like that at upwards of 3-4 Million (don't know the exact Numbers) something I want no part off.

Clemmensen is a solid backup but doesn't bring much value and I like Goc but I don't see him as a major upgrade on Lappierre, would rather Bozak myself.

So lets say they dont want to give up Huberdeau/Gudbranson/Kulikov/Bjugstad.

----
To Vancouver:
- Matthias (800k RFA)
- 1st 2013

To Florida:
- Luongo
- Malhotra
- Rodin/Schroeder
----


That is beyond brutal.

Mattias is so overrated here it isn't even funny, reminds me of the Joslin stuff.
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#2443 The Bookie

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:48 PM

haha - I didn't mean to induce panic attacks in so many of you by linking that Schneider-anxiety article, I just put it in here because someone asked.

FWIW I hope everyone took the time to read it all the way through - the author makes a great point about the level of maturity it takes to admit something like that. It took years for Luongo to start owning up to his playoff mistakes.
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#2444 HockeyHobo73

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

Leafs clearing up cap space to make room for a $5,333,333 cap spaced goaltender?
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#2445 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:10 PM

Or to pay Perry, Lupul and Kessel next year?

Funny thought at the opposite end of re-building; Kessel for Lou would be an interesting trade! :bigblush:

Leafs clearing up cap space to make room for a $5,333,333 cap spaced goaltender?


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 17 January 2013 - 06:11 PM.

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#2446 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:11 PM

Getzlaf is a franchise player that would materially alter the course of the Maple Leafs, without question. Talk about a perfect setup man for Kessel.


Yeah no doubt, still they wouldn't rebuild after a move like that, side stepping.
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#2447 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:12 PM

I love these Toronto media guys who act like Kadri and Bozak is too high a price for Luongo, everyone is saying Gillis is asking too much (which is the most likely scenerio) but perhaps the other teams are just low balling, Toronto in particular.

I know Kadri and Bozak together won't happen since they have no depth, but the I just can't believe people think the value their in that package is too much to trade for Lu.
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#2448 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:19 PM

Kadri is more dynamic than Hodgson???

Can't bite there. CoHo looks like he's starting the season as the Sabre's top line pivot. And for all the critique he got hurt 3 years ago getting in the work; and his recovery was cued by going at it even harder (but smarter). Sum; he's got the work rate! I'm not betting any money that Kadri outperforms a guy who plain works harder.

Kadri is an unmistakeable talent, but an upgrade on Wellwood not a core player until he proves that work ethic. He'll either be a steal or a bust and has more upside than Biggs. But the Canucks can really use a RW that does what he does, and TO still has Ashton as a prospect at that position. On an AV team that does not reward lack of effort I could see Bigg's being better for us and available?

edit; funny > I was also turned on to Bigg's 3 or 4 months ago (I am sure by yourself) and I started watching and became a fan. But it was in a response to one of my posts, asking for an alternate to Kadri, suggesting TO could not afford to give up a young centre when we all knew Connolly and others would not be around come 2013/14.


I think Kadri's lack of effort is overrated, he is seems like he works hard, I don't think he has attitude issues like some suggest.

As for him vs Cody.

Offensively Kadri is more dynamic, Defensively Cody is more dynamic, Mobility/skating Kadri is more dynamic, Intagables? I would give that too Cody.

Pretty even IMO. also I don't put too much stock in Cody being the #1 in BUF as the deciding factor, they have no one else, Ennis is better but they don't want to ruin the chemistry he has developed with Stafford on the 2nd line.

I like Biggs but I don't see him moving, maybe more so now that Nonis is in control but still., and we do have a few guys like him, Kassian who is better, then even Mallet brings some of the grit (obviously not nearly the prospect Biggs is. Even Gaunce isn't as nasty but he has the size, is physical and works hard down low. Biggs would be very nice to get if possible, just not sure if that is in our fortunes, doesn't seem like Kadri/Bozak is either, my bet is Luongo stays for awhile.
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#2449 Millerdraft

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:21 PM

I love these Toronto media guys who act like Kadri and Bozak is too high a price for Luongo, everyone is saying Gillis is asking too much (which is the most likely scenerio) but perhaps the other teams are just low balling, Toronto in particular.

I know Kadri and Bozak together won't happen since they have no depth, but the I just can't believe people think the value their in that package is too much to trade for Lu.


How much you wanna bet Damien Cox would turn around and call that deal a mammoth steal for Nonis once the Leafs made the playoffs?
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#2450 theminister

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

I've been thinking this over a bit and you know which team I think has the best assets to make a deal for Lou?

Chicago.

I know, I know.

But they could perceivably have the desire, and they most certainly would be able to ante up the required roster player, prospect, back-up goalie and pick (2nd tier prospect) package that MG would undoubtedly being asking for. They are one of the few teams that could do this without adversely affecting their roster or minors depth.

Something like....

Kruger/Shaw/Stalberg/Bickell
Emery
Pirri/Saad/Hayes/Clendenning/McNeill/Danault
2nd

I understand it's highly unlikely and that it could be considered an overpayment but there is no question it would make their roster better for the next few years and would fill the Canucks' needs.

Edited by theminister, 17 January 2013 - 06:25 PM.

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#2451 Trebreh

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:28 PM

Wonder if MG is regretting not accepting Shenn for Luongo now after looking at the offer he's getting.

Then if Philly wants him so bad, we can flip him and maybe Gaunce for Couturier :P
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#2452 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:32 PM

Hardly center piece material for a trade; spare included part? (And hardly spare for TO, who uses him) Definitely has an NHL body...

http://mapleleafs.nh....htm?id=8473579

Can he play RW? We are also pretty loaded, Booth notwithstanding, on left wing...

edit; how'd this end up here? Responding to "value of Kulemin thread." Wonder if it's a sign :P

Edited by Canuck Surfer, 17 January 2013 - 06:35 PM.

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#2453 Bure fan

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

When teams like Toronto, Florida, or Philly start loosing 4, 5, or 6 goal games that is when Canucks are in a total commanding position to get the more effective deals.
It seems more logical to wait it out and not rush into any deal now until teams get desperate and you can really pile on the players, prospects, and picks.
Alternatively though this method could backfire of course. Theodore, Reimer, or Bryz could definitely turn it around and become the goalie they need. Once that happens we will no longer have the upper hand. So it might be better to act now before you lose the upper hand.

I personally think the wait and see approach is the best option and I believe that is what Mike Gillis is doing to get also.

Edited by Bure fan, 17 January 2013 - 06:35 PM.

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#2454 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:38 PM

How much you wanna bet Damien Cox would turn around and call that deal a mammoth steal for Nonis once the Leafs made the playoffs?


If I am betting, I'm betting on your side, Cox would change his opinion on a dime once he sees how Lu actually plays.
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#2455 thad

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:45 PM

When teams like Toronto, Florida, or Philly start loosing 4, 5, or 6 goal games that is when Canucks are in a total commanding position to get the more effective deals.
It seems more logical to wait it out and not rush into any deal now until teams get desperate and you can really pile on the players, prospects, and picks.
Alternatively though this method could backfire of course. Theodore, Reimer, or Bryz could definitely turn it around and become the goalie they need. Once that happens we will no longer have the upper hand. So it might be better to act now before you lose the upper hand.

I personally think the wait and see approach is the best option and I believe that is what Mike Gillis is doing to get also.


i agree. I dont buy the argument that schneider is going to cry himself to sleep every night Lu is still here.

my only concern is if Lu sucks this year.. if that happens then i guess we can expect one of king's ridiculous devaluations to become reality.. untill that happens we are in good shape
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#2456 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:51 PM

Funny the chat on Hockey Talk with Murray and Kypreos that Burke was fired for not trading for Lou. And reality settling in that it was for possibly trading for wanting Lou and having it blocked? (I'm speculating, not knowing, based on the moves and positioning of Nonis since)

Yeah it does not appear they are gearing up to get Lou and that they hold value in keeping Kadri.

As for the Hodgson comparison lets just say that Kadri possibly wins the duel at the beginning of the shift, Hodgson the end :rolleyes: .

I think Kadri's lack of effort is overrated, he is seems like he works hard, I don't think he has attitude issues like some suggest.

As for him vs Cody.

Offensively Kadri is more dynamic, Defensively Cody is more dynamic, Mobility/skating Kadri is more dynamic, Intagables? I would give that too Cody.

Pretty even IMO. also I don't put too much stock in Cody being the #1 in BUF as the deciding factor, they have no one else, Ennis is better but they don't want to ruin the chemistry he has developed with Stafford on the 2nd line.

I like Biggs but I don't see him moving, maybe more so now that Nonis is in control but still., and we do have a few guys like him, Kassian who is better, then even Mallet brings some of the grit (obviously not nearly the prospect Biggs is. Even Gaunce isn't as nasty but he has the size, is physical and works hard down low. Biggs would be very nice to get if possible, just not sure if that is in our fortunes, doesn't seem like Kadri/Bozak is either, my bet is Luongo stays for awhile.


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#2457 Li'l Fra

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:03 PM

It's not that Schneider and Luongo couldn't get along for a while. It's that the longer this goes on, and with the ups and downs that players have during the season, the media will make a giant mess out of it.

This story will not go away, it hasn't yet, and it's only going to get crazier from here.

The media will keep feeding this beast until it eats our team.
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#2458 goal-ghost

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:09 PM

How much you wanna bet Damien Cox would turn around and call that deal a mammoth steal for Nonis once the Leafs made the playoffs?

ha, so very true. something along the lines of, " i loved this trade from the very beginning"
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#2459 Canucks fan in chicago

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:36 PM

Schroeder and Kassian....yeah, real excited about this second line.

Schroeder is not even a point per game player in the A.

And what has Kassian done, 4th line plug. Oh yeah, he's "developing.

Sad thing is Gillis can't draft worth crap. And some his trades have been less than great.

The way I see it, Gillis thinks basically a backup goalie now, is more important than a solid second line. With the cap decreasing next year how are we gonna re-sing Edler while still having Luongo, because Gillis seems determined to keep Luongo. The way I see it, we need to sign Gomez. Enough of these 'Cam Barker' deals. Gillsi needs to make a splash and he needs to make it soon or we're done for this year.
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#2460 MJDDawg

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

This is kinda sidestepping from your original "rebuild" argument no?

Their organization isn't going to rebuild after all the bandaiding they have done, they are going to add pieces and wait for their young players to become good enough that it will create a mix that will make them a highly competitive team.



Actually to some extent they did, no one was sure about anything heading into the playoffs, after we choked they gain confidence and caught fire, they were unachieving but I didn't seem like they were going to doing that.



Gardiner isn't happening, we can wait till the next ice age and it won't happen, that won't change even if the Leafs season is on the brink of heading down the tubes, and that won't change in the offseason, I don't see how people can't understand that.

I guess we will wait till the offseason then, after moving 2 top 9 capables center's after Kadri impressed and made the team (Didn't you say he was a career AHLer btw?) Then Frattin will likely take the other spot, they are nuts thinking Bozak is the solution to the top line center spot though, & James Riemer hasn't had a good camp at all, even without Lombardi and Connolly moving Bozak + non roster prospects and a pick for Luongo is alot mroe beneifical to them than keeping Bozak.

I guess we will see what happens, Toronto doesn't seem to have anything to give up other than unmovables.


I agree that Gardiner likely won't happen. If he ever was on the table, he's less likely to be part of any deal since Nonis took over. With all the rumors of Burkie getting canned because he didn't want to part with high-end prospects, Nonis is now under intense scrutiny to not give away the farm.

Edited by MJDDawg, 17 January 2013 - 07:41 PM.

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