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#1 Special Ed

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:46 AM

First let me get this out of the way. I have never been in or am currently in a gang. I have never been charged with a single crime. I am however a middle aged male, tattoos and I lift weights.

What rights do people have that are aggressively approached by this taskforce have?

Some time ago I was surrounded by them at a downtown bar. They interrogated me on the spot about my personals. I felt like I didn't have to speak to them but that if I didn't they would bully me further. Actually I felt like I was being bullied by a bunch of thugs, the same as any gang.

Lately I have been seeing them all over. They even come to conduct investigations where I work.

Last night I was out for dinner and who rolls in... GS. They do a walk by my table and every one of them gives me a good look while I'm sharing a meal with my sister. They walk around the place 'strutting' their stuff before dragging a couple guys out for questioning.

So why should I feel uncomfortable out in public simply because of how I look? What should someone do when they are profiled by these 'officers' and questioned aggressively?

I have no doubt they go after gangsters... But at the expense of guys that have nothing to do with gangs too? Are they adding me to some secret list? I don't really see the difference between GS and gangs. They both walk around in group and bully the public.

Were the police really so incompetent in gang dealings that they were forced to stoop down to the same level? Pretty sad sight in our city to have these thugs in uniform walking around.

If anyone has some positive solution on how to deal with them if the situation should arise, that would be helpful. I'm not interested in being bullied by public servants. At the same time I prefer not to instigate them either.

End of rant :P
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#2 :D

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:00 AM

I seem to remember a story a couple of months ago that even small interactions (like giving up your ID to the police so they can run it) get logged and attached to your file. And that these incidents on file have repercussions when you have a criminal record check.

As for the IGTF, they hide under a vague jurisdiction (in any group, there could be officers from any city) and use intimidation to get what they want. You can't win because John Q. Public has a kneejerk reaction to news about gangs and think that this group is all that is keeping us safe.

Edit: I'm always getting approached by them when I play in Casinos, and you can tell them to pound sand, but all it takes is one word from them and the owner of any establishment will ask you to leave. They don't take kindly to showing a spine.

Edited by :D, 05 January 2013 - 10:02 AM.

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#3 Special Ed

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:06 AM

I seem to remember a story a couple of months ago that even small interactions (like giving up your ID to the police so they can run it) get logged and attached to your file. And that these incidents on file have repercussions when you have a criminal record check.

As for the IGTF, they hide under a vague jurisdiction (in any group, there could be officers from any city) and use intimidation to get what they want. You can't win because John Q. Public has a kneejerk reaction to news about gangs and think that this group is all that is keeping us safe.

Edit: I'm always getting approached by them when I play in Casinos, and you can tell them to pound sand, but all it takes is one word from them and the owner of any establishment will ask you to leave. They don't take kindly to showing a spine.


Yeah and I'm a very prideful person. It's a tough pill to swallow being bullied like that. Reminds me exactly of a time when I was jumped in high school and when I see GS it brings back that exact memory.

Thanks for your insight.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#4 Electro Rock

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

I've heard that even other local police dislike their attitude...

But that's Lower Mainland police for you, a bunch of fronting cowardly bullies that would be promptly assuming the doggie position if they were ever not in a position of overwhelming advantage.

They're obviously not very effective either, other than maybe keeping certain gang members out of certain establishments.
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#5 Harbinger

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:07 AM

I like threads like this. The thing I always heard was that if you are being bullied by someone you gotta bully them back. perhaps something on the line of "Back off, get your own sandwich." The most effective thing to get them off a persons back is to try to be seen less in high profile expensive cars and secondly throw away any douchebag apparel. I know it sucks to be profiled. But sometimes it is a good thing. It helps bring down crime and catches criminals you might not otherwise know about.
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#6 Special Ed

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:22 AM

http://blogs.vancouv...ver-law-courts/


Last year, when a number of gang cases were going on simultaneously at the Vancouver Law Courts, the uniformed gang squad walked through the hallways and even into a couple of the courtroooms. It was a very visible reminder that the downtown courthouse would not be a good location to continue the many conflicts existing between various gangs, groups and individuals.

Well there are even more gang trials going on right now at the building at 800 Smithe with even more due to begin in the new year. Yet, the uniformed gang squad within the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit is no longer allowed inside the glass-roofed building.

No one from the B.C. government court services was able to comment on this change when I contacted them yesterday. Hopefully they’ll have some answers today. The same anti-gang police were inside Surrey Provincial Court a few weeks back when Glen Sheck’s gun cases was continuing there. So there appears to be a different policy now for Supreme Court than for provincial.

Here’s my story:




B.C. law courts full of gang trials, but anti-gang police few and far between

Even though several gang trials are being held simultaneously in B.C. Supreme Court, anti-gang police have cut back their presence at the Vancouver Law Courts.

Sgt. Lindsey Houghton of the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit said Tuesday that members of its uniformed team who were bolstering security at the Vancouver courts have been asked to stay away.

“Our overt uniformed presence has been reduced at the request of the courts and the judiciary since last year. You’d have to ask them why that is,” Houghton said.

He said sheriffs are looking after court security.

“The B.C. Sheriffs have a robust presence there and have the ability to monitor and respond to anything in the court facility as is part of their mandate,” Houghton said.

“We are well aware of the trials and appearances that are currently taking place.”

No one from B.C. Court Services responded to requests for information about the change.

A year ago, when gangster Sukh Dhak had a bail hearing at the Vancouver Law Courts, heavily armed members of the gang task force patrolled throughout the building.

On Tuesday, as Dhak’s drug conspiracy case continued with pre-trial motions, there was no visible police presence.

In fact, at a break in the proceedings, Dhak sat in on a manslaughter case a floor below his own trial, chatting for several minutes at the morning break with one of the accused, Patrick Avery Plowman, before shaking his hand and heading back to his own case.

Dhak was the subject of a police warning in September 2011 during heightened gang tensions. Police said anyone associating with members of the Dhak-Duhre group could be at risk.

The trial for Dhak and his co-accused Baljit Pabla and Neville Rankin is expected to begin this week, but last-minute pre-trial applications are being heard now.

All three accused appeared in the high-security courtroom built for the United Nations gang murder conspiracy case, which is also in pre-trial motions but not sitting this week.

Next door, in courtroom 66, is the murder trial of Michael Bruce Newman, a UN gangster charged with killing Marc Rozen in 2004. Rozen, a lawyer who had given up his practice to work with troubled kids, was stabbed and shot to death in his West End condo after advertising an expensive engagement ring.

And next door to Newman, the murder trial of Dinh Cuong Pham is continuing before a jury. Pham is charged with shooting Em Van Huynh to death outside Vancouver’s Hai Lua restaurant in July 2008. Jurors have heard the tiny pho house at Nanaimo and Broadway was frequented by gangsters.

Plowman and his co-accused — Sebastian Lucas Miazga, Kalum Lather Cain and Nolan Swallow — are on trial a floor below in the Feb. 1, 2009 slaying of Tyson Edwards outside Richards on Richards nightclub.

Members of the public must pass through security gates to be searched by sheriffs for some of the gang trials at the Vancouver Law Courts. But other courtrooms can be entered without any search.

Dean Purdy of the B.C. Government and Service Employees’ Union, which represents sheriffs, said he is concerned if there are few anti-gang police specialists supporting the work of sheriffs at the Vancouver Law Courts.

“I have been informed that the police presence has dropped off and that’s a concern for us because the police and the sheriffs work hand in hand to provide a safe environment at the law courts,” Purdy said.

-

Interesting article I came accross after a quick search.

Edited by Special Ed, 05 January 2013 - 11:23 AM.

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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#7 Harbinger

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

http://blogs.vancouv...ver-law-courts/


Last year, when a number of gang cases were going on simultaneously at the Vancouver Law Courts, the uniformed gang squad walked through the hallways and even into a couple of the courtroooms. It was a very visible reminder that the downtown courthouse would not be a good location to continue the many conflicts existing between various gangs, groups and individuals.

Well there are even more gang trials going on right now at the building at 800 Smithe with even more due to begin in the new year. Yet, the uniformed gang squad within the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit is no longer allowed inside the glass-roofed building.

No one from the B.C. government court services was able to comment on this change when I contacted them yesterday. Hopefully they'll have some answers today. The same anti-gang police were inside Surrey Provincial Court a few weeks back when Glen Sheck's gun cases was continuing there. So there appears to be a different policy now for Supreme Court than for provincial.

Here's my story:




B.C. law courts full of gang trials, but anti-gang police few and far between

Even though several gang trials are being held simultaneously in B.C. Supreme Court, anti-gang police have cut back their presence at the Vancouver Law Courts.

Sgt. Lindsey Houghton of the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit said Tuesday that members of its uniformed team who were bolstering security at the Vancouver courts have been asked to stay away.

"Our overt uniformed presence has been reduced at the request of the courts and the judiciary since last year. You'd have to ask them why that is," Houghton said.

He said sheriffs are looking after court security.

"The B.C. Sheriffs have a robust presence there and have the ability to monitor and respond to anything in the court facility as is part of their mandate," Houghton said.

"We are well aware of the trials and appearances that are currently taking place."

No one from B.C. Court Services responded to requests for information about the change.

A year ago, when gangster Sukh Dhak had a bail hearing at the Vancouver Law Courts, heavily armed members of the gang task force patrolled throughout the building.

On Tuesday, as Dhak's drug conspiracy case continued with pre-trial motions, there was no visible police presence.

In fact, at a break in the proceedings, Dhak sat in on a manslaughter case a floor below his own trial, chatting for several minutes at the morning break with one of the accused, Patrick Avery Plowman, before shaking his hand and heading back to his own case.

Dhak was the subject of a police warning in September 2011 during heightened gang tensions. Police said anyone associating with members of the Dhak-Duhre group could be at risk.

The trial for Dhak and his co-accused Baljit Pabla and Neville Rankin is expected to begin this week, but last-minute pre-trial applications are being heard now.

All three accused appeared in the high-security courtroom built for the United Nations gang murder conspiracy case, which is also in pre-trial motions but not sitting this week.

Next door, in courtroom 66, is the murder trial of Michael Bruce Newman, a UN gangster charged with killing Marc Rozen in 2004. Rozen, a lawyer who had given up his practice to work with troubled kids, was stabbed and shot to death in his West End condo after advertising an expensive engagement ring.

And next door to Newman, the murder trial of Dinh Cuong Pham is continuing before a jury. Pham is charged with shooting Em Van Huynh to death outside Vancouver's Hai Lua restaurant in July 2008. Jurors have heard the tiny pho house at Nanaimo and Broadway was frequented by gangsters.

Plowman and his co-accused — Sebastian Lucas Miazga, Kalum Lather Cain and Nolan Swallow — are on trial a floor below in the Feb. 1, 2009 slaying of Tyson Edwards outside Richards on Richards nightclub.

Members of the public must pass through security gates to be searched by sheriffs for some of the gang trials at the Vancouver Law Courts. But other courtrooms can be entered without any search.

Dean Purdy of the B.C. Government and Service Employees' Union, which represents sheriffs, said he is concerned if there are few anti-gang police specialists supporting the work of sheriffs at the Vancouver Law Courts.

"I have been informed that the police presence has dropped off and that's a concern for us because the police and the sheriffs work hand in hand to provide a safe environment at the law courts," Purdy said.

-

Interesting article I came accross after a quick search.



This is probably a union thing. between Sheriffs and Officers.
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#8 Electro Rock

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

They don't do much aside from going after blatantly obvious, lower ranking gang members, never mind the Triad guys and others who don't fit the profile of a stereotypical Lower Mainland gang member.


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#9 Harbinger

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

They don't do much aside from going after blatantly obvious, lower ranking gang members, never mind the Triad guys and others who don't fit the profile of a stereotypical Lower Mainland gang member.


You have to start somewhere.
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#10 Special Ed

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

You have to start somewhere.


So your opinion is that innocent Canadians enjoying a family dinner who are then intimidated by police is a neccesary evil? That their freedom to be protected from intimidation or harassment is acceptable for a few criminals to be captured? Why are the regular officers unable to perform this duty?
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#11 Harbinger

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

So your opinion is that innocent Canadians enjoying a family dinner who are then intimidated by police is a neccesary evil? That their freedom to be protected from intimidation or harassment is acceptable for a few criminals to be captured? Why are the regular officers unable to perform this duty?


It's only about getting gangsters. This reminds me of women who dress provocatively and then complain about guys hitting on them. The same goes for people who dress or try to portray that gangster image. If you want to look like one then don't act all surprised when people think you could be one.
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#12 Gooseberries

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

ok I'm not from Vancouve, very far away actually. can someone explain what a gangster squad is and what their purpose is. because I have no idea what he's talking about.
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#13 Harbinger

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:17 PM

ok I'm not from Vancouve, very far away actually. can someone explain what a gangster squad is and what their purpose is. because I have no idea what he's talking about.


it's a Gang task force for trying to apprehend gangsters who have been having a lot of wars here lately.
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#14 Electro Rock

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

You have to start somewhere.


Who says that the effort to combat organized crime is anything other than a PR stunt? This is an area that has the reputation of being "open for business" as far as dirty money is concerned.

I mean at a time when even places like Montreal are managing to put away many of their big notables, we got Vancouver area police police managing to nail only the most obvious heatbags in between beating up pizza delivery guys and otherwise acting like thugs towards ordinary citizens.
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#15 Gooseberries

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:20 PM

so there is a group appointed by the law to disrupt gang wars and dismantle gangs in Vancouver. ...wow. do they have any qualifications at all?
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#16 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

These sorts of incidents can have a huge impact on your life and future employment prospects as was discussed in earlier threads.
http://forum.canucks...riminal-record/

It has been alleged that the checks are a result of racial profiling. In one case reported it involved a person who was acting chair of British Columbia's multicultural advisory council and a high profile award winning cultural advocate who had just been named a national award winner for his work..


Vancouver Arts Advocate and self-described cultural navigator Mo Dhaliwal has been named this year's winner of the Arnold Edinborough Award from Business for the Arts.


Dhaliwal is long-time director of the Vancouver International Bhangra Celebration, co-vice president of the Alliance for Arts and Culture, member of the PuSh Festival's leaders council, and former president of the Vancouver Asian Heritage Month Society.

http://www.straight....d-business-arts

When Dhaliwal asked for their badge numbers he was handcuffed and detained.


Gang squad accused of racial profiling

High-profile member of Indo-Canadian community says he felt targeted

By Douglas Quan, Postmedia News September 14, 2012


The acting chair of British Columbia's multicultural advisory council says he was made to feel like a second-class citizen when members of a multi-agency gang task force abruptly ordered him out of an Abbots-ford restaurant and then temporarily detained him in hand-cuffs when he asked for each of the officers' names.


Later, when he and his cousins decided to hit up another venue, they ran into the same officers, one of whom allegedly told him he was "not welcome" there either.


Mo Dhaliwal, 34, who works in digital marketing and is a high-profile member of the Indo-Canadian community, told Postmedia News he decided to go public with his account of the June 2 incident because it left him wondering why he was targeted, whether he was racially profiled and why police acted like "thugs."


"These guys seemed like they were on - I wouldn't say war path - but they were there to clean house one way or the other. When they addressed me, I sensed there was a latent aggression there," he said.

Dhaliwal, who denies any gang associations, said he is trying to arrange a meeting with the officers he encountered that day to discuss his concerns.


"I've never had any run-in with the cops that would make me think ill of them at all."


Postmedia News sent the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, which oversees the uniformed Gang Enforcement Team, an email outlining Dhaliwal's accusations.


A spokeswoman said Supt. John Grywinski, who oversees the team, plans to meet with Dhaliwal on Sunday and would hold off on commenting on the incident until he talks to him.


Grywinski did provide a general statement saying the presence of anti-gang officers at restaurants and bars has helped disrupt the activities of gang members and prevent violent outbreaks.


Under the Bar Watch pro-gram, businesses consent to police entering establishments and removing known gang members and their associates or people who have a record of serious violent or drug-related crime.


"Section 41 of the Criminal Code of Canada gives us the authority to remove someone who is unwanted from a property or establishment at the request of the owner and/or manager," Grywinski said.


He added: "While we do check gang members, we are often called upon to deal with other police issues and that can be anything from patrons refusing to pay a bill or patrons causing a fight."


In a five-page account of the incident, Dhaliwal says he spent the afternoon of June 2 at Surrey's Celebrate the Harvest festival put on by the Vancouver International Bhangra Celebration Society, which he founded.


Later that evening, he joined some cousins and friends at the Cactus Club in Abbotsford. At one point, he left his table to go chat with some female friends near the bar and joined them in having a shot. One of the women in the group was visibly intoxicated, he said.


Gang task force officers - who Dhaliwal later learned were Abbotsford police Sgt. Mark Jordan, RCMP Const. Joel Shoihet, West Vancouver police Const. David Taylor and RCMP Const. Shawn Courto-rielle - approached the group and asked the women to leave.


Dhaliwal says he was then ordered to leave as well, even though he had not received any complaints from staff.

Outside, Dhaliwal says he was told the whole party had been removed for being there too long.


Dhaliwal says when he asked the officers for their business cards and badge numbers, they handcuffed him and put him in the back of a police car and told him he was being arrested for trespassing. He was detained for about 10 minutes, he says.


Later that evening, Dhaliwal and his cousins went to a pub where they ran into the same officers. One of them, according to Dhaliwal, told him, "You're not welcome here either," and they left.


"Part of the reason I do what I do in life is because I want to bring people together, create understanding," he said.

"This was yet another reminder of just how far away we are from where we need to be."

http://www.vancouver...l#ixzz2H83cGEfO

And these sort of checks where you surrender you ID can have an adverse effect on your life including your employment prospects.

There are two major databases.

Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) - this is a Canada wide system which is operated by the RCMP under the stewardship of National Police Services, on behalf of the Canadian law enforcement community. When other agencies are granted access to the CPIC system they agree to comply with the policies and procedures on the use of the system. These polices and procedures are governed by federal legislation, ministerial directives, and federal government policies. The RCMP periodically audits police services and federal agencies to ensure that they adhere to the policies and procedures. CPIC is quite tightly controlled and monitored and there are specific guidelines for data entry on individuals. There are some ongoing issues with CPIC criminal records checks they can be monitored and addressed because of the governing legislation, policy and guidelines.
http://www.cpic-cipc...glish/crfaq.cfm


PRIME-BC - The real issue is with a made in BC database that has grown by leaps and bounds in the last ten years with little in the way of oversight with no real policy or guidelines on data entry. This database is the Police Records Information Management Environment (PRIME-BC). PRIME-BC is an initiative, sponsored by the Ministry of the Solicitor General, in the Province of British Columbia, legislating all police forces to use the same occurrence records management system. The RCMP “E” Division (British Columbia) has partnered with other municipal police agencies and the B.C. provincial government in the acquisition of a common information system.

Employers in both the public and private sector have been able to access PRIME-BC for criminal record checks and the problem is that an individual's name may appear with no criminal charges, convictions or even a criminal investigation. The BC Civil Liberties Association has expressed concerns and there have been newspaper reports of negative impacts on people.

Here is what the BCCLA had to say on this on March 22, 2011:

The B.C. Civil Liberties Association has discovered that as many as 85% of British Columbia‟s adult population have “master name records” in the PRIME-BC police database. This database is used by police to prepare criminal record checks, including the controversial “negative police contact” section of those checks that can restrict access to jobs or volunteer opportunities. The BCCLA has written the Solicitor General to ask her to investigate.

“With more than eight out of every ten B.C. adults in this database, we‟re wondering if people know what the police are writing about them,” said Robert Holmes, Q.C., President of the BCCLA. “These notes by police officers can prevent people from getting jobs, schooling and training, and it is difficult if not impossible to remove or alter incorrect information.”

The most recent annual report for PRIMECorp, the crown corporation that administers the database, indicates that the database has 4,452,165 master name records, and B.C.‟s entire population as of October 1, 2010 older than 15 years of age, was estimated by BC Stats to be 3,844,531. Even if as many as a quarter of master name records are duplicates due to aliases, misspellings or out-of-province residence, 86% of the adult population of B.C. would still be recorded in the database.

While PRIME-BC was introduced in the Legislature as a way to better combat serial killers, sexual offenders, and career criminals, it would seem that minor traffic violations are enough to land B.C. residents in the police database, indefinitely. There is little in the way of protocol guiding how entries are made, how long information is kept, and the BCCLA frequently receives complaints about incorrect information being impossible to alter.

“What is disturbing is that some information is being recorded as „negative contact‟,” said Holmes. “Employers assume that if you have „negative contact‟, you have done something wrong, but it‟s just as likely that you insisted on your basic rights or that the information is incorrect. This is not some kind of philosophical objection, this misinformation is wrongfully keeping people from economic opportunities.”

http://bccla.org/new...olice-database/

On March 21, 2011 the BCCLA wrote the BC Solicitor General setting out their concerns and copied the letter to BC Information and Privacy Commissioner Elizabeth Denham. Here is the letter:
http://bccla.org/wp-...neral-PRIME.pdf

On March 25, 2011 BC Information and Privacy Commissioner Elizabeth Denham issued a press release noting that she shared the BCCLA concerns over PRIME-BC and had in fact already opened an investigation several months before.
http://bccla.org/wp-...neral-PRIME.pdf

It should also be noted that it is unlawful to refuse to hire a person with a criminal record under the BC Human Rights Code unless it is employment related.

13 (1) A person must not

(a) refuse to employ or refuse to continue to employ a person, or
(b) discriminate against a person regarding employment or any term or condition of employment

because... that person has been convicted of a criminal or summary conviction offence that is unrelated to the employment or to the intended employment of that person.


The Province did an in-depth article on the problems with specific examples of the dangers. One case involved Tony Wong whose identity is logged in PRIME-BC, a police database. Wong's listing, however, comes with a red flag - an 'adverse' notation - simply because a friend of a friend talked to someone who police believe was a gangster after leaving Wong's table at a restaurant. Another person had his potential career derailed.

For more than 10 years police officers in British Columbia have been quietly amassing potentially damaging personal information in a little-known database called PRIME-BC.

You don’t have to be a criminal to have a file. If you’ve phoned 911, witnessed a crime, been a suspect, or been pulled over by an officer in B.C., then your name and personal information are likely logged in the system.

More than 85 per cent of B.C.’s adult population is in PRIME-BC, officially known as Police Records Information Management Environment. Even more surprising, a growing number of employers are accessing the records and potentially ruling out job-seekers based on contacts that are “adverse” according to police.

After releasing a report Wednesday that points to the B.C. government’s flawed use of employee criminal record checks, Information and Privacy Commissioner Elizabeth Denham said the government is not accessing PRIME information — but “more and more” private companies are.

“I believe that is problematic under B.C.’s privacy laws, because that is information that has not been confirmed by judicial oversight,” Denham said Wednesday. “Adverse police contact is recorded in PRIME, and that could create a flag on a file that at the end of the day could prejudice someone from obtaining employment. I think that is a problem for the citizens of B.C., and I don’t believe PRIME should be used in an employment setting.”

The first details about PRIME-BC were released in 2010 through an annual general report issued by PRIMECorp.

Officially, the database went into operation on a pilot basis in Vancouver, Port Moody and Richmond in 2001. Yet, The Province has learned that PRIME-BC started recording individuals’ personal information for the first time in Richmond, in 1998.

It’s difficult to know what constitutes a negative contact in PRIME, because few police agencies were willing to discuss guidelines for officer reporting.

Rules on what represents “adverse police contact” on a record check vary between policing agencies, and even with various personnel completing the check.

The Abbotsford Police Department, an independent force separate from the RCMP, was most forthcoming of all departments contacted. Abbotsford will not report information on witnesses or 911 callers, but will report negative contact if an interaction was considered “chargeable.”

According to the RCMP’s operations manual, they will relay any “founded, substantiated adverse information.”

But civil liberty advocates worry that “adverse contact” boils down to individual officers giving their subjective opinions.

Former lawyer Tony Wong of Vancouver says his case shows any innocent B.C. citizen can get flagged in PRIME.

Wong says in August 2010 he was enjoying dinner with three friends at a West End sidewalk cafe when one of his party spotted an associate walking down the street and invited him to join the table. The fellow sat down for 20 minutes. Shortly after he left, police showed up at Wong’s table and wanted to see identification from everyone. The restaurant staff had apparently called police after the table guest stopped to talk to a suspected gang member as he left the restaurant.

The officers admitted they had entered all the diners' names into a police database, which would prove to be PRIME-BC.

Wong says he “didn’t know that [table guest] and I had nothing to do with that person, never met him before,” so he was shocked his personal information could be recorded in connection to a suspected gangster. He has tried unsuccessfully for two years to get the file deleted, and says he is advocating for PRIME to be reformed.

“I’d like to see that this doesn’t happen to other people,” Wong said. “The police shouldn’t arbitrarily or needlessly collect information into this database that has detrimental implications to people who have committed no crime and have done nothing wrong.”

Then there’s the case of Jose-Luis Guinea, who arrived in Canada from Peru more than 14 years ago and began working hard to build a better life for his family.

In 2008, he graduated from Kwantlen University College as a recreation co-ordinator for senior citizens. He understood that when he applied for a job he would have to submit to a pre-employment police record check. It was part of the process to screen out convicted criminals and keep them away from vulnerable clients.

Guinea was stunned when his police record check was returned to his potential employer indicating that a police file “may or may not exist” in his name. Guinea’s name had been flagged in the PRIME-BC database as having had “adverse police contact.”

“They ended my career just like that. I couldn’t get another job,” he says.

Guinea would learn, after some investigation, that his negative contact referred to an incident a year earlier when he had been visiting a friend in Richmond. The friend’s disabled daughter suffered a seizure and fell onto the sidewalk face-first. An argument ensued with the paramedics who responded and someone called the police. They attended, and recorded Guinea’s personal information, along with details of the incident, into PRIME, he says.

“It was frustrating,” Guinea said. “I knew I had done nothing wrong.”

Peter Bolten, a Parksville resident, has worked with dementia patients as a registered care aide since 1988.

He was shocked when his routine police check renewal was returned with a tick indicating he had had negative police contact.

Bolten had endured problems with his next-door neighbours for years. The situation came to a head one day when he claims the neighbour attacked him. The man’s wife also joined in the assault.

“I defended myself,” he says. “I had no choice.”

Still, he was the one charged with assault. That was dropped after he signed a peace bond and agreed to stay away from his neighbour.

“No one ever told me that this could haunt me down the road,” he said, adding he worried his career would be in jeopardy.

Despite criticism, policing agencies believe strongly in the value of the database.

“The best thing about PRIME, from my perspective, is the sharing of knowledge across North America,” says Insp. Bruce Imrie, who is in charge of informatics operational support for the RCMP.

Imrie suggests that had PRIME been available, it would have been of significant assistance in the case of Vancouver’s missing women.

“We’ve moved forward many steps thanks to PRIME and co-operation between policing agencies,” Imrie says.

Strangely, the database currently contains the names of more than five million B.C. citizens, including adults, juveniles and even infants. Yet only 4.5 million individuals reside in B.C.

“Yes, we have a problem with accuracy,” says Russell Sanderson, general manager of PRIMECorp, the corporation that supplies and manages the database for police.

He explained that “John Joseph Doe” could appear several times in the database, as John Doe, Joseph Doe, John Joseph, or even just John, Joseph or J.J.


http://www.theprovin...l#ixzz23AzdqL1A

BC Information and Privacy Commissioner Elizabeth Denham was concerned over these issues and began an investigation. This is a two part investigation - first she looked at the use being made by the BC government for criminal records checks and she released a very critical report warning of serious dangers in the way in which data is being collected, stored and disseminated and used, in particular in relation to criminal records checks. Although directed towards the givernemnt many of the criticisms also apply to private sector employers access to PRIME-BC. The first report was released by Denham on 25 July 2012 - INVESTIGATION REPORT F12-03 - USE OF EMPLOYMENT-RELATED CRIMINAL RECORD CHECKS:
GOVERNMENT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA - Elizabeth Denham, Information and Privacy Commissioner

http://oipc.bc.ca/or...eportF12-03.pdf

“I believe that (private sector employer use) is problematic under B.C.’s privacy laws, because that is information that has not been confirmed by judicial oversight. Adverse police contact is recorded in PRIME, and that could create a flag on a file that at the end of the day could prejudice someone from obtaining employment. I think that is a problem for the citizens of B.C., and I don’t believe PRIME should be used in an employment setting.”

Her full investigation and report into private sector employer used of PRIME-BC is ongoing but given what she has found thus far it will likely be very critical of non-compliance with privacy law.

As the BC Freedom of Information and Privacy Association notes:

On Wednesday, BC Information and Privacy Commissioner Elizabeth Denham released a report detailing her recent investigation into employment-related criminal record checks by the BC Government. In her report, Denham notes that approximately 85% of the government’s 33,500 employees must submit to a criminal record check. Given the inherently privacy-invasive nature of such checks, she writes, it’s essential that they are carried out only where necessary, and only where it suits the job in question.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the BC Government, these commitments are not being upheld. Denham states that the province’s largest employer collects “more information than is necessary” from prospective and current employees, “unnecessarily conducts multiple checks on some employees,” and regularly contravenes section 26 of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act in carrying out criminal record checks.

Denham’s report recommends a number of policy changes to correct these imbalances, but also notes, to the Government’s credit, that it doesn’t make use of the far more invasive Police Information check. Much broader in scope than a typical criminal record check, police information checks include a search of BC PRIME (Police Records Information Management Environment), the central database for the province’s local police forces. PRIME logs extensive information on citizen interactions with police, including vaguely defined “adverse” contact.

But where the Government seems to be holding off on these checks, “seldom justifiable under privacy legislation in British Columbia,” private sector employers are digging deeper and deeper into BC PRIME.


http://www.fipa.bc.ca/home/news/325

The problem with PRIME-BC is that characterizing an adverse police contact ultimately boils down to individual subjective officer interpretation, and so should not be used as a basis for flagging citizens as potentially criminal and denying them employment. Commissioner Denham agrees: “I think that is a problem for the citizens of BC and I don’t believe PRIME should be used in an employment setting.”
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#17 Harbinger

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

Who says that the effort to combat organized crime is anything other than a PR stunt? This is an area that has the reputation of being "open for business" as far as dirty money is concerned.

I mean at a time when even places like Montreal are managing to put away many of their big notables, we got Vancouver area police police managing to nail only the most obvious heatbags in between beating up pizza delivery guys and otherwise acting like thugs towards ordinary citizens.



Who says it's not more than what you see on the surface as well. I am by no means a police apologist. We just really don't know what is going on under the surface. The Gang task force openly said they would be harassing lower level gangsters as one of their tactics. But that is only one tactic that we know of for sure.
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#18 Special Ed

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

It's only about getting gangsters. This reminds me of women who dress provocatively and then complain about guys hitting on them. The same goes for people who dress or try to portray that gangster image. If you want to look like one then don't act all surprised when people think you could be one.


Well I wear pretty plain dress shirts. The style of my hair is gelled straight back. The only thing I can think of is I'm fairly big with tattoos. So I can't wear a nice watch? Please tell me how I 'should' dress according to your standards of not being harassed.

Other than that, any young male with tattoos and a fit body should be subject to such treatment by their own doing?

Just doesnt make sense to me.
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#19 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

It's tough to just have the cops sit on their hands instead.

I was living in Langley during the time of the pre-Olympic shootings and it was scary. Esp. the one at the IGA parking lot. Anyone could've caught one there.

I have to admit, the streets in Vancouver have gotten a lot cleaner since the mid-90's. It may have just been buried into backrooms, but the 'streets' are cleaner.

But what hasn't gotten better obviously is the gang crap. Enter gang squads?


What i don't get is why the cops are rolling around all 'anti-gang' these days when they've been in bed with the Hells Angels for decades? Hip-hop-hypocrisy?
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#20 Harbinger

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

Well I wear pretty plain dress shirts. The style of my hair is gelled straight back. The only thing I can think of is I'm fairly big with tattoos. So I can't wear a nice watch? Please tell me how I 'should' dress according to your standards of not being harassed.

Other than that, any young male with tattoos and a fit body should be subject to such treatment by their own doing?

Just doesnt make sense to me.



I'm not telling you how to dress. You can dress however you like. You just can't act surprised if having a lot of tattoos and muscles gets some unwanted attention. It's just reality.
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#21 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

Agreed. However, it doesn't seem right.

But they're cops. I expect cops to be pricks.
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#22 Special Ed

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

Thank you wetcoaster. It's frustrating to know that if I try to demand my rights I could be subject to loss of employment. At least it seems some of these issues are coming into light publicly. For now I guess there is no choice but to put up with it.


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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#23 Electro Rock

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

Double post.

Edited by Electro Rock, 05 January 2013 - 12:52 PM.

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#24 Electro Rock

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

I don't look or dress douchebag, and can walk around cities like L.A., Montreal, Toronto, Seattle, Phoenix etc all day without recieving any police attention, yet for whatever reason I get stopped and questioned quite often in Vancouver.

I don't bother with local clubs and bars, but I can imagine if I did I'd be hassled by these Training Day wannabes on a regular basis.

Edited by Electro Rock, 05 January 2013 - 12:52 PM.

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#25 Tearloch7

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:05 PM

Cops are like trained dogs .. they look for "attitude" as part of their profiling, and then human nature takes over .. IMO, the majority of police in BC are not psychologically suited to their profession .. I base this on personal experience, and from dialogue with several "police-friends" .. best to keep a low profile and try to stay under the radar ..
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#26 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

I don't look or dress douchebag, and can walk around cities like L.A., Montreal, Toronto, Seattle, Phoenix etc all day without recieving any police attention, yet for whatever reason I get stopped and questioned quite often in Vancouver.

I don't bother with local clubs and bars, but I can imagine if I did I'd be hassled by these Training Day wannabes on a regular basis.

Good for you.

As has been reported you do not even have to "look or dress douchebag" nor hang out in clubs or bars to be dealt with by the Vancouver gang squad and any interaction due to PRIMEBC can have serious and long term impact upon your life.
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#27 JaGuaR

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:12 PM

GS also works on behalf of the owners/managers of establishments they visit. The owners may be actually calling the GS to come check you out based on your appearance. Obviously this is stereotyping, discriminatory, and looks overly paranoid on the owners part but remember the last thing they want is a shooting/stabbing in their businesses, so the caution is warranted. GS is "harassing" you simply to find out who you are. Once they realize you aren't involved in any gang activity and have no connections to gangs, they'll probably leave you alone. So just keep your story straight and consistant when speaking with GS officers and they'll forget about you.

Edited by JaGuaR, 05 January 2013 - 02:15 PM.

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#28 LostViking

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

Gang Squad seems to be blatantly discriminating against a lot of people. This is tough though, because if they get called they probably have to respond. I'm sure if I called the police (never mind gang squad) and said someone outside by home is acting suspicious, I could get a police officer to come and ask them some questions too. So once anyone decides they don't like the look of you, the police's hands are tied. The fact we have such a terrible police force probably doesn't help matters any.

As far as profiling people by their 'look' goes, it is always unfortunate when this happens, but understandable. When I throw on an Iron Maiden or Pantera t-shirt, black jeans, and spike up my hair, it is perfectly understandable someone would look at me and think 'now there's a metal head'.

People are not perfect, and we must accept that we all have limits, some people's minds just don't know how to properly process an encounter with someone they don't know, this is a cognitive weakness to be pitied as much as it is a pain in the bum for anyone who is judged unfairly.

Is it wrong for person A to look at person B and judge them by their looks? Absolutely! However, is it any better when person B then judges person A to be a racist/hatemonger/etc without knowing anything about this person? In most cases, I would argue person A probably just doesn't have the proper cognitive or social skills to deal with other people, that it is a weakness they have that should be understood, rather than vilified.

It seems to be both persons A and B would be guilty of passing judgement based on very shaky information, and showing a clear lack of understanding of people who think differently than themselves.

As an example, I have a serious dislike for spiders, they creep me out. I get very uncomfortable when a big one is around, is this the spider's fault? not a chance, but is it my fault, I think if there was anything I could do to rid myself of these feelings I would, so I would say no to that as well. It is simply a weakness in my brain.

So the next time you are profiled as a dangerous person because of the 'douchebag' look, and I imagine that is a very uncomfortable and unfair experience, just remember perhaps the way you look is scaring or making others uncomfortable, and perhaps they don't actually have control over these feelings any more than your pride allows you to ignore the discomfort with being treated unfairly.
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#29 Electro Rock

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

I've found that showing respect towards our local police is like asking to be treated with even more contempt so I do the opposite.

Screw them and their whole paramilitary business!


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#30 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:35 PM

GS also works on behalf of the owners/managers of establishments they visit. The owners may be actually calling the GS to come check you out based on your appearance. Obviously this is stereotyping, discriminatory, and looks overly paranoid on the owners part but remember the last thing they want is a shooting/stabbing in their businesses, so the caution is warranted. GS is "harassing" you simply to find out who you are. Once they realize you aren't involved in any gang activity and have no connections to gangs, they'll probably leave you alone. So just keep your story straight and consistant when speaking with GS officers and they'll forget about you.

Absent an apprehended breach of the law or a statutory requirement, the police do not have the right to know who you are.


I have posted my run-in with a couple of RCMP members in the past.

Of course if you know your rights and how to properly assert them, sometimes you can have a bit of fun.

A number of years back when I was undergoing my first bout of chemo I suffered from intense insomnia. There was a 24 hour SuperValu near my home so when I could not sleep I would often walk the mile or so to do some grocery shopping. Worked out well as there was not a big crowd at 3 am.

One night I am walking along and an RCMP cruiser pulls up with two youngsters and asks what I am doing. I tell them I have insomnia and that I am walking to the super market to do a little grocery shopping. Here is kind of how it went (RCMP language cleaned up for sensitive ears).

They do this "yeah, right" routine - and ask "What are you really doing". I repeated my story.

Then comes, "Well let's see your identification."

"Why?" I ask.

"Because we said so."

I told them as I was walking and not driving a vehicle, why would I have to produce identification?

"Because we say so."

I then tell them that really is not good enough and ask under what precise law do they have the right to force me to produce ID?

Then the lies start - "We have had report of break-ins in the area and you match the description of the suspect?"

"Really?" say I. "I am kind of a strange B&E artist do you not think wearing a reflective vest and with a flashing LED strobe on my upper arm?"

That stumped them for a minute... then "We still want to see some ID."

And I replied "I still need to know what right you have to require me to do so."

We go back and forth like this for a few minutes and then they say "Well we will have to take you to the detachment."

I then tell them this is likely not the smartest thing they could do. Besides once there how are they going to justify this to their Officer in Charge?

"We will tell him you were not cooperating."

"Not cooperating with a demand that you have no legal right to make?" is my response.

"We will tell him you were resisting arrest then."

"How would you justify an arrest since there are no grounds that I can see?"

Then one of the members says "You sound like you think you are a lawyer?"

I reply - "That is about the most perceptive thing you have said - not only do I think it - but in fact I am. And not only that used to do a fair bit of work with members of your detachment back when I was working integrated operations with CLEU."

I then asked "Who is on the desk tonight?"

They say it is Sergeant X.

"Great" say I. "But I find it hard to believe that the "Bobby" (actually I used his less than flattering nickname that came from an incident when he tumbled down a hillside when trying apprehend a runner) would have been promoted he always told me that he never wanted to leave the streets."

This really the stopped the two of them in their tracks.

I then said: "How about you get your desk sergeant on the radio and we can work this out."

"Uhhhhhhh.... no its fine sir, you have a good night." Into the cruiser they go and drive off.

I finished my shopping and then called the detachment and spoke to my acquaintance on the desk and told him what happened. He thought it was hilarious. When I described the two members he really laughed. Apparently these two rookies both acted like the had a stick up a bodily orifice. He told me he would talk to them when they got in off shift.

The next night I get a call and both the members apologize profusely.


WARNING - Do not try this yourself kiddies - you need to be a trained professional.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 05 January 2013 - 05:38 PM.

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