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CDC's ability to take in the effect of long-term injuries is TOO DAMN LOW (looooong read but may be worth it)


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#1 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:09 AM

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Hockey players are not random generators. The stats they put up almost directly correlate with, among other things, their physical condition.

There are often other factors, but one thing I noticed is that we don't take into account the severity that certain injuries could cost a player, even after years.

The most obvious one is Mason Raymond. Not to beat a dead horse here, but his back injury (along with his multiple broken finger injuries) probably took a bigger toll on him than anyone ever gave him credit for.

Think about it. He fractured his spine. That's one of the most fragile and critical parts of the human body. Remember how Brent Sopel injured his back while bending over to pick up a cracker? If you injure your back once, and especially if you injure it like Raymond did, there is no way a person could play to his full potential in the next few years. I myself lightly injured my upper back a few years ago. Even today, if I do a little lifting only slightly out of perfect form, my back twinges and stings. What do you think Raymond is feeling every time he tries to pull off a hairpin turn or getting body checked? Don't you find it miraculous that he even recovered in a couple months?

I am almost convinced to the point where I might put money on the table that he played through a substantial amount of pain last year. His general weak balance showed that, but at he same time, the sporadic flashes of talent here and there shows that he is not a bust, but just too broken.

I don't think trading him will do any good because he won't fetch much in his state. He's not a liability, and he is fairly versatile and still puts up fringe top-6 points. If he hadn't almost become crippled I wouldn't give him any leash but, this isn't about slack or sympathy. This is him not being fully recovered and us having to accept the fact that if he is to stay, he won't ever be the 09-10 Raymond.



I find that Malhotra experienced a similar incident, where he suffered a very serious injury and was never the same.

"But he injured his eye, it has nothing to do with physical presence". The next time you do anything, do it with an eye patch on one of your eyes and see how much harder it is to do it.

Try playing hockey with an eye closed. It's surprising how narrow your vision becomes without your second eye. That fact that he is still playing and putting up points is very impressive. I have a lot of respect for Manny, and I know almost everyone on CDC does too.

It's just that when I see him getting ragged on for not playing as well as he did in his first year, just remember, eyesight = vision, and vision = passing plays and assists. Not to mention he fell out of shape and out of the flow of the game from being out so long.


Lastly, Luongo. He hasn't really suffered a huge injury, except the groin pull(?) that sidelined him for a number of weeks. However, I think there is a bit of a mindset problem with him. And I think we are part of the blame. I include this because I consider it as a kind of injury, a mental one at that.

1. The team unwittingly puts pressure on him.
It's more than proven that we don't score goals in the playoffs. We have more games where we go 0-2 goals than 2+. Everyone knows this, and nobody knows better than Luongo, who is playing for a city who will blame the goaltender for most losses. A competitor himself, Luongo knows that if he does not play the one of the best games of his career, there isn't much chance of winning.

Don't tell me the lack of scoring doesn't get to him in any way. He is literally the counterpart to our offense. The better the offense, the less important the goaltending (probably correlates with the supposed regular season success since we score just fine). And, the worse the offense, the more scrutiny on the goaltending. Wait, what? When the offense starts to suck, our goaltending gets more blame during losses? Ah, it's not unjust at all. Roberto probably loves the extra middle finger.

2. We ran him out of this city even if he is to stay. He has no reason to play his hardest consistently any more. Maybe that's why you see "inconsistencies". Don't you ever get that? Your job, school, something. You probably have gone, "what's the point of this" and wanted to just stop. Whatever the reason for that was, it was probably some form of the job feeling pointless or unrewarding. And I bet that's exactly how Luongo feels. Not many seem to like him, the media is looking to undermine him, and his backup is getting all the positive attention. Not to make him sound like a whiny child, but he is human. He has no obligation to be good to the fans if we aren't good to him.

This can't justify some of his performances, but we can't justify the hate we're giving him given Luongo's level of effort, passion and drive to win. He probably just doesn't want to play hard for us anymore, while Schneider feels he must do well to keep himself from going under. If you want an example, think of the booing when he got pulled. Even if it was not real, the media speculation and the fact that it probably was halfway true shows the city hates him while demanding the best out of him.

It's 2AM right now. I apologize in advance for the dumb mistakes I may have made while typing. Hope you had a good read.

LoB

Edit: Adding in Kesler's situation, since some people bring it up.

Well, when you look at Kesler's upsides, a lot of it has to do with either the quick release on his shot (would make for a valuable trait in today's tightly-defending NHL), and his ability to be physically stable while being effective with the puck.

Kesler had a pretty bad wrist injury and needed surgery. Most people can understand that a wrist shot requires a strong wrist. Well, if Kesler was bothered by a damaged wrist that had not yet fully recovered, there is no way he could net the amount of goals he did before the playoff run. Yes, he could have tried to change his game especially since Booth could have become the main shooter, but this is Kesler. He does whatever the ???? he wants and still isn't that bad of a player. In general, you can't say his 40 goal season was a fluke because he hasn't had a legitimate chance of showing his skill (kind of like how Raymond's shot was compromised after 2 broken hands).

His hip labrum surgery also probably hindered his ability to be more physical. Sure, he was physical anyway, but there is a little guy at the back of your head reminding of how you got injured being a checker and getting physical. Would it really help you to get back into the most physically demanding sport in the game and do what he does with intensity, especially during a slump partially as a result of another injury? Kesler is a proud man, we could see this when we lost game 7. He wouldn't want to back out from playing his game, but the more he plays, the worse his situation gets.

We can't expect much out of him until he's 100% fit. Once he is, I can say with confidence that he will return to form. He has the fitness, the determination and skillset to do so.

Edited by LordofBrussels, 12 January 2013 - 11:14 PM.

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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#2 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:12 AM

I didn't read most of it but I do agree.
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#3 AriGold

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

I didn't read most of it but I do agree.

Neither did I but i also agree..
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#4 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:15 AM

Neither did I but i also agree..


Same, and I also agree..
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#5 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:16 AM

You guys are silly people.
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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#6 Common sense

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:17 AM

While I agree with the Raymond and Malhotra injuries (for eye problems, think Bryan Berard), Luongo doesn't factor into this equation. His problem is psychological, not physical.
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#7 Pineapples

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:35 AM

Agreed. None of those players deserve the hate they get. While at times, we've needed them to be better, but they've never been the reason we lost a playoff series. It's a team game, win or lose, but people will always use scapegoats unfortunately.
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#8 nuck nit

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:52 AM

I believe Luongo had three ,if not four serious groin pulls and or injuries with the Nucks,alone.
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#9 RyanKeslord17

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:52 AM

Yeah I agree man. But what else can we expect? We're a city that is passionate for hockey and we've gone 41 years without a cup. We're bound to rage out at our players ever so often.
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#10 Noheart

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:54 AM

I hate the people that spit and piss on a guy who gets his eye poked out and another guy that breaks his back in the SCF.

I may be hard to take at times, but im not that evil.
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#11 higgyfan

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

Glad you took the time to write this up, although the ones that should read it probably won't. I am hoping that Raymond and Malholtra will have a better season this year, but like you say, they are rcovering from some tough injuries.
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#12 Pyrene

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:28 AM

Loved it. Touched on issues I've felt for awhile now. Sometimes people have to realize that hockey players are human too.
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#13 questforthecup

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:47 AM

Don't forget Kesler and his shoulder. Who knows if he'll ever be able to score 40 goals again...
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#14 suolucidir

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

I hate the people that spit and piss on a guy who gets his eye poked out and another guy that breaks his back in the SCF.

I may be hard to take at times, but im not that evil.

What happened to you, man? The lockout changed you...

Edited by suolucidir, 12 January 2013 - 11:46 AM.

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Quote

Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists somewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.

View Postbahkwan, on 03 December 2010 - 12:55 PM, said:

It bugs me when people pull out the gold medal for an example... Luongo only had to outplay Brodeur.

#15 babych

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

Good read. I agree.
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QUOTE
(shiznak@Jun 17 2008, 08:00 PM)
Kesler was lucky to score 20 this year since the injury to Morrison allowed him to do so.

I doubt Kesler would ever break 15 goals in his career again.

#16 meh_wassup

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

Dead on. Good read, I agree with all the points you made. I'll admit I was a little hard on Raymond, I think a LOT of it had to do with the fact that he wasn't producing yet AV was still putting him in the top 6. He's AV's golden boy and I found it unfair to a lot of the other players on the team who bent over backwards and couldn't get a second chance. I guess my anger should've been more directed towards AV. Anyways +1 for the positive thread. We need a LOT more logical fans on this forum.
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#17 thema

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

Hockey players are not random generators. The stats they put up almost directly correlate with, among other things, their physical condition.

There are often other factors, but one thing I noticed is that we don't take into account the severity that certain injuries could cost a player, even after years.

The most obvious one is Mason Raymond. Not to beat a dead horse here, but his back injury (along with his multiple broken finger injuries) probably took a bigger toll on him than anyone ever gave him credit for.

Think about it. He fractured his spine. That's one of the most fragile and critical parts of the human body. Remember how Brent Sopel injured his back while bending over to pick up a cracker? If you injure your back once, and especially if you injure it like Raymond did, there is no way a person could play to his full potential in the next few years. I myself lightly injured my upper back a few years ago. Even today, if I do a little lifting only slightly out of perfect form, my back twinges and stings. What do you think Raymond is feeling every time he tries to pull off a hairpin turn or getting body checked? Don't you find it miraculous that he even recovered in a couple months?

I am almost convinced to the point where I might put money on the table that he played through a substantial amount of pain last year. His general weak balance showed that, but at he same time, the sporadic flashes of talent here and there shows that he is not a bust, but just too broken.

I don't think trading him will do any good because he won't fetch much in his state. He's not a liability, and he is fairly versatile and still puts up fringe top-6 points. If he hadn't almost become crippled I wouldn't give him any leash but, this isn't about slack or sympathy. This is him not being fully recovered and us having to accept the fact that if he is to stay, he won't ever be the 09-10 Raymond.



I find that Malhotra experienced a similar incident, where he suffered a very serious injury and was never the same.

"But he injured his eye, it has nothing to do with physical presence". The next time you do anything, do it with an eye patch on one of your eyes and see how much harder it is to do it.

Try playing hockey with an eye closed. It's surprising how narrow your vision becomes without your second eye. That fact that he is still playing and putting up points is very impressive. I have a lot of respect for Manny, and I know almost everyone on CDC does too.

It's just that when I see him getting ragged on for not playing as well as he did in his first year, just remember, eyesight = vision, and vision = passing plays and assists. Not to mention he fell out of shape and out of the flow of the game from being out so long.


Lastly, Luongo. He hasn't really suffered a huge injury, except the groin pull(?) that sidelined him for a number of weeks. However, I think there is a bit of a mindset problem with him. And I think we are part of the blame. I include this because I consider it as a kind of injury, a mental one at that.

1. The team unwittingly puts pressure on him.
It's more than proven that we don't score goals in the playoffs. We have more games where we go 0-2 goals than 2+. Everyone knows this, and nobody knows better than Luongo, who is playing for a city who will blame the goaltender for most losses. A competitor himself, Luongo knows that if he does not play the one of the best games of his career, there isn't much chance of winning.

Don't tell me the lack of scoring doesn't get to him in any way. He is literally the counterpart to our offense. The better the offense, the less important the goaltending (probably correlates with the supposed regular season success since we score just fine). And, the worse the offense, the more scrutiny on the goaltending. Wait, what? When the offense starts to suck, our goaltending gets more blame during losses? Ah, it's not unjust at all. Roberto probably loves the extra middle finger.

2. We ran him out of this city even if he is to stay. He has no reason to play his hardest consistently any more. Maybe that's why you see "inconsistencies". Don't you ever get that? Your job, school, something. You probably have gone, "what's the point of this" and wanted to just stop. Whatever the reason for that was, it was probably some form of the job feeling pointless or unrewarding. And I bet that's exactly how Luongo feels. Not many seem to like him, the media is looking to undermine him, and his backup is getting all the positive attention. Not to make him sound like a whiny child, but he is human. He has no obligation to be good to the fans if we aren't good to him.

This can't justify some of his performances, but we can't justify the hate we're giving him given Luongo's level of effort, passion and drive to win. He probably just doesn't want to play hard for us anymore, while Schneider feels he must do well to keep himself from going under. If you want an example, think of the booing when he got pulled. Even if it was not real, the media speculation and the fact that it probably was halfway true shows the city hates him while demanding the best out of him.

It's 2AM right now. I apologize in advance for the dumb mistakes I may have made while typing. Hope you had a good read.

LoB


So, in short, any Canuck who has ever sustained any kind of injury is off the hook as far as responsibility for our collective failures goes. In fact even if they were still able to play in the NHL any injury is a good excuse for the team not winning it all. In other news Steve Moore is faking it and is just trying to soak money out of a minor "fracture" in his spine (NOT a broken neck).

Mason has had a SEASON AND A HALF to heal his back; if he's still not 100% he should retire. Ditto Manny (who I love BTW). Ditto Edler and everybody else who was "playing on one leg" in the SCF. That was a loooooong time ago. More often than not injuries are a lame excuse, especially if the guy is playing games regularly (the Luongo one especially).
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#18 Gino Odjick

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

Yeah but Batman recovered SUPER quick after Bane broke his back. All Raymond needs is an out of practice chiropractor in a greasy prison cell and *POP*... Bob's your uncle.
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#19 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

So, in short, any Canuck who has ever sustained any kind of injury is off the hook as far as responsibility for our collective failures goes. In fact even if they were still able to play in the NHL any injury is a good excuse for the team not winning it all. In other news Steve Moore is faking it and is just trying to soak money out of a minor "fracture" in his spine (NOT a broken neck).

Mason has had a SEASON AND A HALF to heal his back; if he's still not 100% he should retire. Ditto Manny (who I love BTW). Ditto Edler and everybody else who was "playing on one leg" in the SCF. That was a loooooong time ago. More often than not injuries are a lame excuse, especially if the guy is playing games regularly (the Luongo one especially).


I knew someone would make a dumb reply without actually reading or understanding what I wrote.

Have you injured your back? Have you? If you have, you wouldn't be writing such nonsense. Did you not see what I had written? A light injury on my back (from getting tackled in a schoolyard football game without pads) has been following me around for 2 years. Translate the light injury to a compression fracture and translate light lifting into one of the world's most physically exerting activities and you have yourself a situation where Batman's doctor can't even fix.

He should retire? Are you serious? Oh it's ok he doesn't need any money or anything for him or his family. He's not producing enough, so he should be flung onto the street. So what if he made a few million already? Hockey players can't work 30+ years like the rest of us can. They need every season they can get.

I never said he should be responsibility-free (failed to understand me yet again). I simply said trading him won't do us any good. He's doing the best he can now. You might as well hate on the patients of the Canucks for Kids for taking our money but not healing to normal. It's simply ridiculous how demanding this fanbase is.
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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#20 CmdrAdama

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

While I agree with the Raymond and Malhotra injuries (for eye problems, think Bryan Berard), Luongo doesn't factor into this equation. His problem is psychological, not physical.


A psychological problem can be far worse than a physical ailment. Luongo's a hard competitor. The constant negativity would hurt after a while.
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#21 cmccomb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

Injuries play a part, but lets try and keep things into perspective when it comes to Raymond and Malhotra. Especially with Raymond, his game went south long before he broke his spine. Want to blame it on broken fingers? Well go for it. The problem with Raymond, good spine/fingers or no is that he's too small. Not height wise, but weight wise and that's why it'll never work with him. He has the worst center of balance because of that fact. This is why short stocky guys with the same weight fair better. This is also why the guy gets hurt a lot.

Manny won't be the same either, but maybe he can contribute more than last year, we've seen in years past that guys do get some improvement back with eye injuries, even if it's not the same. But Malhotra's roll is far different, his faceoff numbers didn't diminish last year so he still has that left to contribute as a 4th liner.
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#22 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

Why didn't you mention Kesler?

When I looked at the title I thought this would be directed at him right away, then Manny and Raymond.
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#23 apollo

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

Well said.

Perfect example was the bieksa injuries... two serious injuries and every moron wanted him out of town. Now those same fans all love him and praise him
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#24 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

Losing Hamhuis in the finals, and then Rome to a suspension, when Ehrhoff and of course Salo were hurting = Floodgates open WIDE!

I'm amazed we even made the finals without Manny. But that cost us Kesler, pretty much.

Depth is important, but being healthy at the right time is more important.
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#25 etsen3

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

Meh, I don't want to assume too much about the severity of their injuries. For example, Raymond's injury was a bone injury, not a muscle injury, so he may or may not still be feeling pain. Muscle injuries can cause pain with movement, but I'm not sure about spinal injuries. Also we don't know how bad Manny's eyesight is. He has a special contact, so it's not like he's playing with one eye. If anything their problems were caused by having less time to get in game shape over the summer.

Also, this may sound harsh, but management has to make decisions based on who can help the team, regardless of injuries. The most effective players get the spots. If they think a player can return to his old form, great. But if not, then either find them a new role where they can be effective or find someone else to do it for them.

Edited by etsen3, 12 January 2013 - 08:14 PM.

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#26 TheEhrhoffEffect

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 09:49 PM

Raymond was sucking for the whole year before his back injury.
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#27 ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

I agree with the OP. And you know what I thought, when I saw that our first game is against Anaheim? I thought of the last time we played the Ducks, and how we'd already clinched first overall and the division, and how the fans booed Luongo in that meaningless game when he gave up three goals, and cheered when he was pulled. I remember how I KNEW right then and there that we were going out in the first round. What kind of fans boo their goalie after clinching the President's Trophy, in a meaningless regular season game?
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