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The Cost of Gun Deaths and Injuries in the US is Staggering.


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#91 Electro Rock

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

How should I know? Who cares?

What's striking to me, and what I feel pity for you and others is the degree of fear you all live in. I really had no idea. Scared of your guns being taken away, scared of being raped in the night, scared of the government attacking you in your sleep, scared of everything. It's really bizarre and just sad.


Stop projecting.

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#92 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

Ahh ok, so showing an armed guy running through the streets to prove the point about how this could be America isn't meant to scare at all. Gotcha.

Hate to break it to you but if anything this is merely mocking assault rifle ban intention and hypocrisy within the Obama administration between it's domestic and foreign policies. I figured maybe the text might help but you're still stuck on the picture.. feel free to read and grasp it at any time. Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with fear. This is all in your own head.

Edited by zaibatsu, 22 January 2013 - 04:24 PM.

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#93 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

You obviously embellish highly the "degrees of fear" gun owners, as well as second amendment supporters have. Trust me, no one loses any sleep over it. In fact, it's more possible fear comes from such embellishments than fear of government or invaders.

And yet a number of people buy what Alex Jones says??? Seems to be a lot of fear being peddled and bought:

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#94 inane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

Stop projecting.


haha. you're funny. i've asked you a number of times to spit out what you really mean, you never do. yet i'm projecting? lol
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#95 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

And yet a number of people buy what Alex Jones says??? Seems to be a lot of fear being peddled and bought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMKrj3HKLjM

Alex Jones has a gimmick about every issue. Care to provide any statistics evidence into "a lot" of people buying into Alex Jones in particular? Last I checked people who listen to this guy also tend to believe chemtrails from aircraft, as well as swine flu, are part of a government conspiracy -- oh, also that the Rothschilds own the universe.

Have you seen support for Alex Jones on this forum at all by those defending the second amendment?

He sure makes a convenient straw man though, doesn't he? :)

Edited by zaibatsu, 22 January 2013 - 04:29 PM.

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#96 inane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

Hate to break it to you but if anything this is merely mocking assault rifle ban intention and hypocrisy within the Obama administration between it's domestic and foreign policies. I figured maybe the text might help but you're still stuck on the picture.. feel free to read and grasp it at any time. Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with fear. This is all in your own head.


Totally, you're right. My bad. In no way does showing an armed guy running form government forces illicit fear.
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#97 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

Totally, you're right. My bad. In no way does showing an armed guy running form government forces illicit fear.

It isn't to illicit fear when the text shows it's clearly to mock a politician's policies and show hypocrisy, the picture is effectively irrelevant due to the text. Who would be in fear after reading that? Hell, I found it funny. It seems you have a bit of understanding to do of your opponent.

Edited by zaibatsu, 22 January 2013 - 04:45 PM.

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#98 Tearloch7

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

Alex Jones has a gimmick about every issue. Care to provide any statistics evidence into "a lot" of people buying into Alex Jones in particular? Last I checked people who listen to this guy also tend to believe chemtrails from aircraft, as well as swine flu, are part of a government conspiracy -- oh, also that the Rothschilds own the universe.

Have you seen support for Alex Jones on this forum at all by those defending the second amendment?

He sure makes a convenient straw man though, doesn't he? :)


Everyone who disagrees with you ends up having to put forth a "straw-man" because you keep running away from where you stand .. straw-men canna run, laddie .. they stand and take the abuse meant to be directed your way, perhaps?? .. I know a lot of folks around here are walking around with a packet of matches in their pocket .. or a Bic .. :lol:
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#99 inane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:44 PM

It isn't to illicit fear when the text shows it's clearly to mock a politician's policies and show hypocrisy, the picture is effectively irrelevant due to the text. Who would be in fear after reading that? Hell, I found it funny. It seems you have a bit of understanding to do of your opponent.


My opponent? I'm not at war with anyone. That's your thing.
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#100 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:03 PM

My opponent? I'm not at war with anyone. That's your thing.

War.. another embellishment. Opponent as in who your opposition in this argument/debate is.

What are the arguments without these nutty embellishments of people defending the second amendment?

Edited by zaibatsu, 22 January 2013 - 08:04 PM.

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#101 inane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

War.. another embellishment. Opponent as in who your opposition in this argument/debate is.

What are the arguments without these nutty embellishments of people defending the second amendment?


Whatever, when all you have left is arguing semantics, there's not much point...
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#102 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:41 PM

Whatever, when all you have left is arguing semantics, there's not much point...

Yeah it boils down to semantics when I have to spend 5 posts helping you get past this odd obsession over an elementary MSPaint image with captions, because you have this utterly ridiculous and unsubstantiated belief it somehow illustrates second amendment supporter / gun owner "fear of everything". People who own guns don't wander around afraid of government all or even most of the time, nor do they barricade themselves in the house waiting for big bad government or liberals to enter so they can blast them. Try to not be as nutty as the fringe of gun nuts.
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#103 Tearloch7

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:50 PM

Yeah it boils down to semantics when I have to spend 5 posts helping you get past this odd obsession over an elementary MSPaint image with captions, because you have this utterly ridiculous and unsubstantiated belief it somehow illustrates second amendment supporter / gun owner "fear of everything". People who own guns don't wander around afraid of government all or even most of the time, nor do they barricade themselves in the house waiting for big bad government or liberals to enter so they can blast them. Try to not be as nutty as the fringe of gun nuts.


Statistically, at least 5% of American gun owners qualify under your above "bolded" description, DO act the way you describe which means 1 in 20 of your neighbors either are capable of "winging out", or has a family member, with access to your "armory", who at any moment for no apparent reason, take your weapons and head to the next "Newton" ..
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#104 Zamboni_14

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:08 PM

Statistically, at least 5% of American gun owners qualify under your above "bolded" description, DO act the way you describe which means 1 in 20 of your neighbors either are capable of "winging out", or has a family member, with access to your "armory", who at any moment for no apparent reason, take your weapons and head to the next "Newton" ..


oh so NOW you are a stickler for accuracy? Can you please provide some kind of credible link to this number? I'm not saying that there isn't some (assuming that we are counting ALL gun owners and not just those that are legally carrying,) but if I was to guess... I'd say the number is probably closer to 1%.
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#105 Tearloch7

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

oh so NOW you are a stickler for accuracy? Can you please provide some kind of credible link to this number? I'm not saying that there isn't some (assuming that we are counting ALL gun owners and not just those that are legally carrying,) but if I was to guess... I'd say the number is probably closer to 1%.


Whoa there, Cowboy Z .. here is a link you can check out:

http://www.justfacts.../guncontrol.asp

It takes some extrapolation ..
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#106 inane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:13 PM

Yeah it boils down to semantics when I have to spend 5 posts helping you get past this odd obsession over an elementary MSPaint image with captions, because you have this utterly ridiculous and unsubstantiated belief it somehow illustrates second amendment supporter / gun owner "fear of everything". People who own guns don't wander around afraid of government all or even most of the time, nor do they barricade themselves in the house waiting for big bad government or liberals to enter so they can blast them. Try to not be as nutty as the fringe of gun nuts.


Lobbing silly insults just makes you look stupid.

You and others have said it plain as day, you're afraid. You masquerade it as your rights are being infringed or the safety of your kids, but when push comes to shove, it's just that you're scared.

You may not be as scared as others, but look at the message that's out there. It's fear. You yourself consciously put people on a hockey forum on ignore cause you're scared of what they have to say. Yeah yeah, you pretend it's because they are dumb or repetitive or whatever else, and that may be true. But to willfully ignore their posts, just cause you don't like what they have to say is pathetic, and just scared of what they have to say.

I disagree with you on this, I agree with you on other things, but I would never actively banish you from my reading experience here because I happen to disagree with you on something. How pathetic is that?
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#107 Zamboni_14

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:30 PM

Whoa there, Cowboy Z .. here is a link you can check out:

http://www.justfacts.../guncontrol.asp

It takes some extrapolation ..


that link doesn't actually give the 5% figure (that I could find,) which is what I am asking for (again... for accuracy since you are bringing it up.) And asking others to extrapolate the numbers doesn't make the figure any more accurate either (since the answer that comes from extrapolation is an estimate created from more than one known figure to determine the estimated number.)

sounds to me like the 5% was more of an educated guess rather then actual statistics. (which I'm fine with... as long as you aren't saying it's 100% fact.)
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#108 Ohlundfortehwin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:42 PM

So I'm actually totally against guns for simple personal/moral reasons, but found an interesting article from the harvard law school journal (yes yes, i know a white paper, what could be more boring?). Well, it's interesting, especially if you are more left leaning on these issues. It actually presents an interesting view on the debate.

http://www.law.harva...auseronline.pdf

Interesting findings include:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)
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#109 Wetcoaster

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:02 AM

So I'm actually totally against guns for simple personal/moral reasons, but found an interesting article from the harvard law school journal (yes yes, i know a white paper, what could be more boring?). Well, it's interesting, especially if you are more left leaning on these issues. It actually presents an interesting view on the debate.

http://www.law.harva...auseronline.pdf

Interesting findings include:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)

As soon as I noted that one of the authors of the article was Gary Mauser, a red flag went up. I have seen his junk science before on gun control.

And then I noted he was again relying upon John Lott's studies (that have been discredited by the US National Research Council and numerous other researchers - I have posted the details in other threads). He is also playing games again with "violent crime rates" such as claiming that the violent crime rate in Britain exceeds that of the US - it does not when the data is corrected for underlying offences. Again this has been covered off in other posts.

Mauser has been criticized for such things in the past:
http://scienceblogs....4/06/23/mauser/

As far as the murder rates in Western Europe - they are all quite close if you examine the chart from just under 1.0 to about 2.0 per 100,000 pop. excluding Russia. As I note below his figures for Luxembourg are incorrect - massively

Switzerland has a high rate of gun ownership because most adult males have a weapon as part of their military obligation but the weapon and ammunition are tightly controlled.


The rate of private gun ownership in the United Kingdom is 6.7 firearms per 100 people


In the United Kingdom, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2009: 1.2
2008: 1.3
2007: 1.5
2006: 1.44
2005: 1.53
2004: 1.6
2003: 1.8
2002: 2.1
2001: 1.8
2000: 1.7
1999: 1.5
1998: 1.5
1997: 1.52
1996: 1.46
1995: 1.56

In the United Kingdom, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
2009: 0.03
2008: 0.05
2007: 0.04
2006: 0.08
2005: 0.07
2004: 0.09
2003: 0.07
2002: 0.05
2001: 0.07
1999: 0.08
1998: 0.06


In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 179 countries, Switzerland ranked at No. 3

In Switzerland, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2010: 0.70
2009: 0.67
2008: 0.7
2007: 0.7
2006: 0.8
2005: 1.0
2004: 1.1
2003: 1.0
2002: 1.2
2001: 1.2
2000: 1.0
1999: 1.2
1998: 1.1
1997: 1.2
1996: 1.2
1995: 1.2
1994: 1.32


In Switzerland, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
2010: 0.52
2009: 0.72
2008: 0.24
2007: 0.46
2006: 0.45
2005: 0.64
2004: 0.8
2003: 0.6
2002: 0.9
2001: 0.7
2000: 0.6
1999: 1.0
1998: 0.9
1994: 0.5

And the figures Mauser cites for Luxembourg make no sense. And Luxembourg is front and centre for his thesis.

He claims a rate of 9.01 on 2002 and writes "For example,Luxembourg, where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, had a murder rate nine times higher than Germany in 2002."

Leaving a side the fact that Luxembourg had a population of only about 500,000 so results could be easily skewed by one year, it doe not match up with the UN figures. In fact in 2002 there were only 4 homicides in Luxembourg and a rate of 2.1 - similar to other Western European nations. In 2008 there were 12 homicides, an outlier and the second most recorded was 6 in 2001 otherwise it is 4 and under.

In a comparison of the number of privately owned guns in 178 countries, Luxembourg ranked at No. 147

In Luxembourg, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2008: 2.5
2007: 1.3
2006: 1.5
2005: 1.5
2004: 0.5
2003: 1.0
2002: 2.1
2001: 2.4
2000: 1.8
1999: 0.6
1998: 0.9
1997: 0.9
1996: 0.9
1995: 0.4


In Luxembourg, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
2008: 0.4
2007: 0.21
2006: 0.2
2005: 0.22
2003: 0.22
2002: 0.22
2001: 0.45
2000: 1.37
1999: 0.46
1998: 0.7
1997: 0.24

In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 179 countries, Russia ranked at No. 68 (Gun deaths are not tracked)

In Russia, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2009: 15.1
2008: 16.7
2007: 17.9
2006: 20.2
2005: 24.9
2004: 27.3
2003: 29.1
2002: 30.7
2001: 29.8
2000: 28.2
1999: 26.2
1998: 23.0
1997: 23.9
1996: 26.6
1995: 30.8
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#110 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:34 AM

Where are all the stupid people from?

And how'd they get to be so dumb?

Bred on purple mountain range
Feed amber waves of grains
To lesser human beings, zero feelings

Blame it onHuman nature, mans destiny (mans destiny)
Blame it on the greediocracy (greediocracy)
Fear of godThe fear of changeThe fear of truth
Add the bill of rights, subtract the wrongs
There's no answersMemorize and sing star spangled songs
When the questionsAren't ever askedIs anybody learning from the past?
We're living in united stagnation

Father what have I done?
I took that 22A gift to me from you
To bed with me each night
Kept it clean
Polished it well
Cherished every cartridge, every shell
Down, by the creek, under brush, under dirt
There's a carcass of my second kill
Down, by the park, under stone, under pine
There's a carcass of my brother william
Brother where, have you gone to?
I swear, I never thought I could
I see so many times
They told me to shoot straight
Don't pull the trigger, squeeze
That will insure a kill
A kill is what you want
A kill is why we breed

The christians love their guns
The church and nra
Pray for their salvations
Prey on the lower faiths
The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized

Don't think (stay)Drink your wine (home)
Watch the fire burn (be)His problems not mine (safe)
Just be that model citizen

I wish I had a schilling(for each senseless killing)
For every senseless killing
I'd buy a government
America's for sale
And you can get a good deal on it(a good deal on it)
And make a healthy profit
Or maybe, tear it apart
Start with assumption
That a million people are smart
Smarter than one
Serotonin's gone
She gave up, drifted away
Sara fled, thought process gone
She left her answering machine on
The greeting left spoken sincere
Messages no one will ever hear
Ten thousand messages a day
A million more transmissions lay
Victims of the laissez faire
Ten thousand voices, a hundred guns
A hundred decibels turns to one
One bullet, one empty head
Now with serotonin gone

The man who used to speak
Performs a cute routine
Feel a little patronized
Don't feel bad
They found a way inside your head
And you feel a bit misledIt's not that they don't care, yeah
The television's put a thought inside your head
Llike a barry manilow, jingle
I'd like, to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
A symphonic blank stare, yeah
It doesn't make you care (make you care)
Not designed to make you care (make you care)
They're betting you won't care (you won't...)
Place a wager on your greed
A wager on your pride
Why try to beat them when, a million others tried?
We are the whore
Intellectually spayed
We are the queer
Dysfunctionally raised

One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
Living through conformity
One more prayer to keep me safe
One more prayer to keep us warm
One more prayer to keep us safe
There's gonna be a better place
Lost the battle, lost the war
Lost the things worth living for
Lost the will to win the fight
One more pill to kill the pain
Na na na na naLa na na na naNa na na na naNa na na na na
The going get tough, the tough get debt
Don't pay attention, pay the rent
Next of kins pay for your sins
A little faith should keep us safe

Save us
The human, existence
Is failing, resistance
Essential, the future
Written off, the odds are
Astronomically against us
Only moron and genius
Would fight a losing battle
Against the super ego
When giving in is so damn comforting

And so we go, on with our lives
We know the truth, but prefer lies
Lies are simple, simple is bliss
Why go against tradition when we can
Admit defeat, live in decline
Be the victim of our own design
The status quo, built on suspect
Why would anyone stick out their neck?
Fellow membersClub "we've got ours"
I'd like to introduce you to our host
He's got his, and I've got mine
Meet the decline


Mike Burkett

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 23 January 2013 - 03:37 AM.

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#111 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:52 AM

Where are all the stupid people from?

And how'd they get to be so dumb?

Bred on purple mountain range
Feed amber waves of grains
To lesser human beings, zero feelings

Blame it onHuman nature, mans destiny (mans destiny)
Blame it on the greediocracy (greediocracy)
Fear of godThe fear of changeThe fear of truth
Add the bill of rights, subtract the wrongs
There's no answersMemorize and sing star spangled songs
When the questionsAren't ever askedIs anybody learning from the past?
We're living in united stagnation

Father what have I done?
I took that 22A gift to me from you
To bed with me each night
Kept it clean
Polished it well
Cherished every cartridge, every shell
Down, by the creek, under brush, under dirt
There's a carcass of my second kill
Down, by the park, under stone, under pine
There's a carcass of my brother william
Brother where, have you gone to?
I swear, I never thought I could
I see so many times
They told me to shoot straight
Don't pull the trigger, squeeze
That will insure a kill
A kill is what you want
A kill is why we breed

The christians love their guns
The church and nra
Pray for their salvations
Prey on the lower faiths
The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized

Don't think (stay)Drink your wine (home)
Watch the fire burn (be)His problems not mine (safe)
Just be that model citizen

I wish I had a schilling(for each senseless killing)
For every senseless killing
I'd buy a government
America's for sale
And you can get a good deal on it(a good deal on it)
And make a healthy profit
Or maybe, tear it apart
Start with assumption
That a million people are smart
Smarter than one
Serotonin's gone
She gave up, drifted away
Sara fled, thought process gone
She left her answering machine on
The greeting left spoken sincere
Messages no one will ever hear
Ten thousand messages a day
A million more transmissions lay
Victims of the laissez faire
Ten thousand voices, a hundred guns
A hundred decibels turns to one
One bullet, one empty head
Now with serotonin gone

The man who used to speak
Performs a cute routine
Feel a little patronized
Don't feel bad
They found a way inside your head
And you feel a bit misledIt's not that they don't care, yeah
The television's put a thought inside your head
Llike a barry manilow, jingle
I'd like, to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
A symphonic blank stare, yeah
It doesn't make you care (make you care)
Not designed to make you care (make you care)
They're betting you won't care (you won't...)
Place a wager on your greed
A wager on your pride
Why try to beat them when, a million others tried?
We are the whore
Intellectually spayed
We are the queer
Dysfunctionally raised

One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
Living through conformity
One more prayer to keep me safe
One more prayer to keep us warm
One more prayer to keep us safe
There's gonna be a better place
Lost the battle, lost the war
Lost the things worth living for
Lost the will to win the fight
One more pill to kill the pain
Na na na na naLa na na na naNa na na na naNa na na na na
The going get tough, the tough get debt
Don't pay attention, pay the rent
Next of kins pay for your sins
A little faith should keep us safe

Save us
The human, existence
Is failing, resistance
Essential, the future
Written off, the odds are
Astronomically against us
Only moron and genius
Would fight a losing battle
Against the super ego
When giving in is so damn comforting

And so we go, on with our lives
We know the truth, but prefer lies
Lies are simple, simple is bliss
Why go against tradition when we can
Admit defeat, live in decline
Be the victim of our own design
The status quo, built on suspect
Why would anyone stick out their neck?
Fellow membersClub "we've got ours"
I'd like to introduce you to our host
He's got his, and I've got mine
Meet the decline


Mike Burkett


Fat Mike ****in owns!!!!
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#112 Mr. Ambien

Mr. Ambien

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:29 PM

<p> Still can't answer any of my questions I see. Now where in Ontario do you live? Also, your claim that the Brady campaign has "significant clout" is absurd. Why did Obama sign the bill to allow guns in National Parks and on Amtrak trains, hmm?? I also hope you don't think people are being fooled by those phony extra screen names you use, like "the pedestrian", to try and prop up that NRA propaganda you're spewing, do you?

Since this post is still up I assume it isn't going to be deleted, but I had to laugh at yet another conspiracy about me making a sockpuppet account back in 2006 to agree with myself. Classic! :lol:


Anyways, good ol' vet (and a number of others with him) puts anti-gun rally nuts that depicts gun owners as nazi's in their place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFzPgChSMzc

Edited by zaibatsu, 23 January 2013 - 04:30 PM.

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