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Everybody Loves Raymond (except Jim)...Merged


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#541 SamJamIam

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 03:50 PM

"Intangibles" ...........Ah the last resort of someone who has realised his bias hasn't taken him as far as he thought it would.


You get a +1. Even if most of the crap you say is absurd, it isn't when it comes to Raymond.
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#542 dangler696969

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:44 PM

He only tried because it was a contract year. He will probably have less production next year. Dump his rights for picks
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#543 Baggins

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:22 AM

Well, no. How many assists or goals does a rugged, complementary forward on Keslers line need? Because that is the replacement plan, somebody to clear the way for Kesler, not the other way around.

Stats serve little purpose here. Matt Greene has horrible "stats" he will never win the Norris based on "stats", but he is exactly the kind of D man the Canucks should employ. Raymond doesn't offer intangibles, he is done.


Last I checked Raymond is a forward not a defenseman. Matt Green has played 5 regular season games and 3 playoff games this year. I don't think he's clearing the way for anybody.
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#544 Baggins

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

He only tried because it was a contract year. He will probably have less production next year. Dump his rights for picks


11/12

55 gp 10g 10 a 20pts +4 in a contract year.

Took a pay cut.


So much for your theory.
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#545 Baggins

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 05:06 AM

Also to argue this point...

There are people that are listed at a certain position but actually play another position.
Like Higgins playing centre? so now we are going to count Higgins production as a centre and compare him to wingers.
Same as Burrows for that stint he played centre.
Same as Roy who played from centre to wing...
You can't simply ljust look at LW because listed position is not the same position as what they are playing

so the best way would be to compare him to forwards in general.
There's 30 teams and 90 1st line positions.
Theres then 90 2nd line positions.

This year was a very good indication of Mayray's performance
Mayray averaged 0.48 pts per game
so theoretically, his points per game average should put him at 135th spot on all forwards (if we are to say he is an average forward on 2nd line).
Howevever, he is at 200 which is then mixed with 3rd liners.
Now keep in mind some players only played a small number of games and their stats are inflated. However, this has the same affect on both sides of the average


LW is where Raymond and Higgins play the majority of their games. Burrows plays the majority on the RW. Roy played the majority of his games at C. Raymond played some center as well. The position listed is where a player spends the majority of his time. This is common throughout the league.

I have no idea what list you're looking at, but Raymond was in fact tied for 133rd spot among all the leagues forwards this past season in points. Even tossing in d-men he sits tied for 160th. This is per NHL.com. So did you simply make up 200th thinking nobody would check?
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#546 Bodee

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:12 AM

LW is where Raymond and Higgins play the majority of their games. Burrows plays the majority on the RW. Roy played the majority of his games at C. Raymond played some center as well. The position listed is where a player spends the majority of his time. This is common throughout the league.

I have no idea what list you're looking at, but Raymond was in fact tied for 133rd spot among all the leagues forwards this past season in points. Even tossing in d-men he sits tied for 160th. This is per NHL.com. So did you simply make up 200th thinking nobody would check?


Baggins, I think you can let him up now. The air is filled with the cries of "uncle"
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#547 Tearloch7

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:35 AM

I could care less about regular season statistics in the overall scheme of things .. unless you can bring it in the playoffs, you dinna deserve a raise, MayRay .. veering to the corner, turning the puck over and THEN falling down? .. those are all things a League Minimum player can do .. with aplomb!!
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#548 CanucksJay

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

I think all this is moot.
MG is not going to re-sign Mayray.
He chose Higgins over him with the limited cap space and I for one am THRILLED
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#549 Bodee

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:15 AM

I think all this is moot.
MG is not going to re-sign Mayray.
He chose Higgins over him with the limited cap space and I for one am THRILLED


Higgins has been giving a good impersonation of the "invisible man" in the last two playoffs. I suppose it's only par for the course that Gillis would give him a new improved contract.
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#550 CanucksJay

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:47 AM

Higgins has been giving a good impersonation of the "invisible man" in the last two playoffs. I suppose it's only par for the course that Gillis would give him a new improved contract.

Regardless, it's already been done.

It's kind of like how the Coho whiners get ridiculed here.
Face it, Mayray will be gone.
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#551 debluvscanucks

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:50 AM

He only tried because it was a contract year. He will probably have less production next year. Dump his rights for picks


People say this and it's, honestly, the dumbest thing ever. Generally, athletes love their job...they'd likely play even if they weren't getting paid. So to suggest their only motive in playing well is a pay raise is ridiculous...once you're "in" the game, you compete because it's in you. If you're at the point that you don't care anymore, most would likely pack it in at that point.

He had a pretty significant setback and it's taking time to find his groove again, nothing more.
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#552 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:54 AM

People say this and it's, honestly, the dumbest thing ever. Generally, athletes love their job...they'd likely play even if they weren't getting paid. So to suggest their only motive in playing well is a pay raise is ridiculous...once you're "in" the game, you compete because it's in you. If you're at the point that you don't care anymore, most would likely pack it in at that point.

He had a pretty significant setback and it's taking time to find his groove again, nothing more.


Hard to argue against some players having career years, in a contract year though. Could be coincidence, could be for the hefty raise. There isn't a doubt in my mind that some players are in it just for the paycheck.
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#553 BananaMash

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:56 AM

Hard to argue against some players having career years, in a contract year though. Could be coincidence, could be for the hefty raise. There isn't a doubt in my mind that some players are in it just for the paycheck.


Bieksa used to be somewhat like that, I think he's fixed that a bit though.
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#554 Baggins

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:05 PM

Bieksa used to be somewhat like that, I think he's fixed that a bit though.


Did he not try in the non-contract years or was it maybe those two freak skate cuts having an effect on his play? People love to ignore those types of things.
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#555 dangler696969

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

People say this and it's, honestly, the dumbest thing ever. Generally, athletes love their job...they'd likely play even if they weren't getting paid. So to suggest their only motive in playing well is a pay raise is ridiculous...once you're "in" the game, you compete because it's in you. If you're at the point that you don't care anymore, most would likely pack it in at that point.

He had a pretty significant setback and it's taking time to find his groove again, nothing more.


Look throughout the League. A countless amount of players start to stink once they get their big pay day, when the season before they were on fire. Coincidence?? Rick Nash? David Booth? Bieksa? Cammalleri? I could go on and on.

It is so ignorant and wrong to actually think that there isn't a correlation between contract years and "heart" or motivation. You need to get real. Players reach a point where they have played so much hockey where its only really the money that motivates them. I doubt Raymond is any different. This was Raymond's year to prove himself, and he actually put up decent numbers, at least decent enough to get him a 3mil+ contract for 3 years that he's always strived for. Once he gets that i'm sure he'll be back to the 35-40 point area. Then the third year will hit and he will have a break out year because he will have to play for another contract and prove that he earned it. Generally when you discuss a new deal, only the most recent year is dissected and analyzed. Sports are a business of "What have you done for me lately?". Get it?

Edited by debluvscanucks, 31 May 2013 - 07:43 PM.
Removed personal attacks

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#556 Bodee

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:12 PM

No. You are simply wrong "super moderator". Look throughout the League. A countless amount of players start to stink once they get their big pay day, when the season before they were on fire. Coincidence?? Rick Nash? David Booth? Bieksa? Cammalleri? I could go on and on.

It is so ignorant and wrong to actually think that there isn't a correlation between contract years and "heart" or motivation. You need to get real. Players reach a point where they have played so much hockey where its only really the money that motivates them. I doubt Raymond is any different. This was Raymond's year to prove himself, and he actually put up decent numbers, at least decent enough to get him a 3mil+ contract for 3 years that he's always strived for. Once he gets that i'm sure he'll be back to the 35-40 point area. Then the third year will hit and he will have a break out year because he will have to play for another contract and prove that he earned it. Generally when you discuss a new deal, only the most recent year is dissected and analyzed. Sports are a business of "What have you done for me lately?". Get it?

It is so comical that a "super moderator" of this board can have such a simplistic view of today's NHL and sports in general. Raymond fits this team no longer.


I love how you mention 4 and say countless.

Cammalleri........2010-11 He then missed a month of play when he suffered a separated shoulder after being crosschecked into the boards
Bieksa........lost his best friend in tragic circumstances in 2011 He still put up record points in season 2011-12 This season he was plagued with injury and line changes.
David Booth.........We all know his injury history and it is still happening
Rick Nash.........the year after his raise 2010-11 he scored 1 point less in one less game. This year he was on schedule for 79pts. The intervening season the whole team dipped and remember we are talking about Columbus.

So maybe you should think before you call someone "ignorant" or wrong.

I would totally agree that there would be no reason for a player to let his form dip. In any case you have so many other things to factor in. The team's form, his partner's form, is he being asked to do too much in a team not performing, is he fit? Possible external factors.

I'm sure there are just as many cases where the opposite has happened. Bobby Ryan for instance or Anse Kopitar or Brent Burns.

Not content with insulting the lady you accuse her of "having a simplistic view" when in fact not only does your view seems prejudiced but it could be argued more simplistic to the point where you rule out all other factors that may affect a players performance. Even something so simple of trying too hard or even good or bad luck.

We are all entitled to our opinions, even you but it serves no purpose to appear to be trying to belittle someone for their heartfelt views. I would suggest an apology might be the gentlemanly thing to do now.

Edited by Bodee, 28 May 2013 - 04:14 PM.

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#557 Bite me Burr

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:28 PM

"Intangibles" ...........Ah the last resort of someone who has realised his bias hasn't taken him as far as he thought it would.


hold on, and I see someone gave this the plus 1 thing... brilliant... Homers!

Are you suggesting that I am wrong, that Raymond does bring intangibles? Clowe has them. Iginla has them. Bouwer has them. Even Hansen has them. But Raymond? Come on guys...
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#558 Bite me Burr

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:38 PM

Wouldn't that depend entirely on who replaces him? Without knowing who his replacement is you can't say who would make the team better. Somehow I don't think your suggestion actually makes the team better than Raymond does.

Raymond who?
The guy who we will most likely lose for nothing? He makes the team better now and then? Niether.
There is no way you didn't see this coming guys.
The whole point here IS replacing him! At least we are doing something then rather than just knowing what we are getting in an uncomplementary forward for this roster, in Raymond.

Maroon was a suggestion. I didn't see yours though. Some guys really stick their neck out there, eh.
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#559 dangler696969

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:05 AM

I love how you mention 4 and say countless.

Cammalleri........2010-11 He then missed a month of play when he suffered a separated shoulder after being crosschecked into the boards
Bieksa........lost his best friend in tragic circumstances in 2011 He still put up record points in season 2011-12 This season he was plagued with injury and line changes.
David Booth.........We all know his injury history and it is still happening
Rick Nash.........the year after his raise 2010-11 he scored 1 point less in one less game. This year he was on schedule for 79pts. The intervening season the whole team dipped and remember we are talking about Columbus.

So maybe you should think before you call someone "ignorant" or wrong.

I would totally agree that there would be no reason for a player to let his form dip. In any case you have so many other things to factor in. The team's form, his partner's form, is he being asked to do too much in a team not performing, is he fit? Possible external factors.

I'm sure there are just as many cases where the opposite has happened. Bobby Ryan for instance or Anse Kopitar or Brent Burns.

Not content with insulting the lady you accuse her of "having a simplistic view" when in fact not only does your view seems prejudiced but it could be argued more simplistic to the point where you rule out all other factors that may affect a players performance. Even something so simple of trying too hard or even good or bad luck.

We are all entitled to our opinions, even you but it serves no purpose to appear to be trying to belittle someone for their heartfelt views. I would suggest an apology might be the gentlemanly thing to do now.


The only point I agree with you on is the external factors that play a role. I'll give you that. But you can't use injury as one of them. It is a players "job" to make sure they are 100 percent ready to go by training camp. Injuries usually occur early in the season because players are not in shape. Booth got injured the first day. Riddle me that. Booth's under achievement also dates back to when he was still a Panther. Why do you think they dumped him after that big contract? It was essentially a long term cap dump. Neither Sturm or Samuelsson are still on their roster. We have Booth for years.

Rick Nash at 7.8 million is one of the worst contracts in the league. He and Richards are partying it up probably. Oh yeah, Richards! Another guy who sold out and started to stink up the rink!

I could keep coming up with examples, but I'm pretty sure that could take all day. So I'm not going to.

As for what you quipped as an insult, I did not intend to insult the "Super Moderator". You see, in a nut shell she called my post "the dumbest thing ever". She actually insulted me first. So YOU are asking ME to apologize? She opened herself up to a reply. Get real buddy. We are all grown ups here. I don't think we need any manners police.

Seriously? You still would like Raymond on the team. That just shows how much credibility you have. LOL

Edited by debluvscanucks, 31 May 2013 - 07:48 PM.

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#560 luongo_01

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:24 AM

11/12

55 gp 10g 10 a 20pts +4 in a contract year.

Took a pay cut.


So much for your theory.


Lol "took a pay cut." More like, Gilman and GMMG shoved it down his throat. Justified, IMO.

Good riddance. He'll go to Calgary.
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#561 Baggins

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:43 AM

Lol "took a pay cut." More like, Gilman and GMMG shoved it down his throat. Justified, IMO.

Good riddance. He'll go to Calgary.


It was in fact a contract year he did poorly wasn't it? He did in fact take a pay cut didn't he? It rather blows the "he only does well in contract years" theory. He played poorly in a contract year and took a pay cut as a result. That's the simple truth of it.

Edited by Baggins, 29 May 2013 - 12:43 AM.

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#562 luongo_01

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:45 AM

It was in fact a contract year he did poorly wasn't it? He did in fact take a pay cut didn't he? It rather blows the "he only does well in contract years" theory. He played poorly in a contract year and took a pay cut as a result. That's the simple truth of it.


You are correct. I wasn't laughing at your point, I was laughing at the circumstances surrounding his pay cut.
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#563 Baggins

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 01:25 AM

Raymond who?
The guy who we will most likely lose for nothing? He makes the team better now and then? Niether.
There is no way you didn't see this coming guys.
The whole point here IS replacing him! At least we are doing something then rather than just knowing what we are getting in an uncomplementary forward for this roster, in Raymond.

Maroon was a suggestion. I didn't see yours though. Some guys really stick their neck out there, eh.


We will likely lose him for nothing as I've already said. Such things happen to playoff teams every year.

Maroon was a stupid suggestion when talking about replacing Raymond. Maroon isn't going to be a second line winger here next year. How are you even going to get him? I also said I could care less if it's Booth, Raymond or both replaced as long as it's an upgrade. It's pointless making suggestions as I highly doubt MG is coming here for ideas. Which is why I can't be bothered with trade proposals. They're for dreamers. How can you even call fantasy sticking your neck out? I call it an exercise in futility.

When free agency is close I'll happily take a look and say who I'd like to see signed but at this point even that is pointless as some will be re-signed before the end of June.
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#564 Bodee

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 02:14 AM

Wow. You're unbelievable.

The only point I agree with you on is the external factors that play a role. I'll give you that. But you can't use injury as one of them. It is a players "job" to make sure they are 100 percent ready to go by training camp. Injuries usually occur early in the season because players are not in shape. Booth got injured the first day. Riddle me that. Booth's under achievement also dates back to when he was still a Panther. Why do you think they dumped him after that big contract? It was essentially a long term cap dump. Neither Sturm or Samuelsson are still on their roster. We have Booth for years.

Rick Nash at 7.8 million is one of the worst contracts in the league. He and Richards are partying it up probably. Oh yeah, Richards! Another guy who sold out and started to stink up the rink!

I could keep coming up with examples, but I'm pretty sure that could take all day. So I'm not going to.

As for what you quipped as an insult, I did not intend to insult the "Super Moderator". You see, in a nut shell she called my post "the dumbest thing ever". She actually insulted me first. So YOU are asking ME to apologize? She opened herself up to a reply. Get real buddy. We are all grown ups here. I don't think we need any manners police.

Seriously? You still would like Raymond on the team. That just shows how much credibility you have. LOL



You agree with external factors but not with injuries (really?)..............so in fact your argument doesn't hold water.
You talk about bad contracts............and how exactly is that the player's fault?

You say Booth is not in shape? He may be injury prone but that doesn't always correlate to not being in shape. He plays a very physical game, might that factor into it. You still apparently don't acknowledge that Booth's concussion might have played a part in his loss of form.

If we are asking. "Should he have been traded here?" I said no then and still maintain it was a mistake. My reasons were he didn't have enough in the bag and appeared to be greedy. These are not factors that attract me to a player.

The truth is and even you should realise this, every player in the league will be subject to loss of form sometimes multiple losses of form and I doubt any are related to their salary.

As for calling your assertion the "dumbest thing ever" Well now she looks like she was pretty accurate there.

Basically as an outsider you are NOT qualified to insinuate players stop trying after a salary raise. I even shot holes in the few you came up with. It's dumb that you think that you are privy to even a fraction of the factors affecting a players drop in performance so logically the basis of your whole argument is flawed beyond repair.

That's it from me on this. What you contest is at best eccentric.

Oh and by the way I don't care if Raymond is let go traded or re-signed. I never did. The only thing I have ever said is HE IS A FINE PLAYER. If we choose to part with him (let's see who replaces him, I have no confidence in Gillis) I hope he goes to a team that utilises him to the full and when he is ripping our all new "knuckle dragging" team apart, I won't be happy but I will quietly think..........Serves you right.

Edited by Bodee, 29 May 2013 - 02:21 AM.

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#565 thehamburglar

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:33 PM

He scored a lucky goal. Wrist shot from the blue line that found the net.


As everyone always says, put the puck on net and things happen. He used his speed, shot the puck and it worked. I liked his game but he still hasn't played well enough to maintain a second line spot, I'd rather Schroeder given the chance but don't dismiss Raymond.
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#566 debluvscanucks

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:47 PM

Look throughout the League. A countless amount of players start to stink once they get their big pay day, when the season before they were on fire. Coincidence?? Rick Nash? David Booth? Bieksa? Cammalleri? I could go on and on.

It is so ignorant and wrong to actually think that there isn't a correlation between contract years and "heart" or motivation. You need to get real. Players reach a point where they have played so much hockey where its only really the money that motivates them. I doubt Raymond is any different. This was Raymond's year to prove himself, and he actually put up decent numbers, at least decent enough to get him a 3mil+ contract for 3 years that he's always strived for. Once he gets that i'm sure he'll be back to the 35-40 point area. Then the third year will hit and he will have a break out year because he will have to play for another contract and prove that he earned it. Generally when you discuss a new deal, only the most recent year is dissected and analyzed. Sports are a business of "What have you done for me lately?". Get it?


First of all, knock off the insults. With a profile that reads "better than all y'all" I'm not buying it.

And most athletes live, breathe, eat and sleep their sport. Nothing wrong with stating that, as it's truth.

Try to post without being so abrasive. I addressed your post, not you...so try to keep it directed at content, not people.
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