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US military to lift ban on women in combat


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#91 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:31 AM

I am talking about their right to fight for their country's "agenda" (as i guess you would discribe it). Im not saying there SHOULD be war. im saying woman should be allowed to fight if THEY deem it a worthy cause...

When i say they should be able to fight for their rights. im saying that they should be able to fight on the front lines against any enemy who they perceive as a threat to their freedom.

The US as a country feels that we should be ready to stand up for what we believe in and be willing to fight for what is right and good (however it HAS been morphed into some world police-hypocritical puke-like propaganda)

Im sure there is SOMETHING you would fight for, even if its nothing youve seen yet...

What about nazi's? i would fight them.

Hell, maybe one day youll want to go to war over who runs your country... too bad you cant sign up *shrugs* too bad for you...

do you see the point here? Im not trying to argue if women should WANT to go to war... im arguing that if they DO want to they should be able to (just like men).


As i have pointed out most historians agree on the fact that there has been "no worthy cause" for any of the wars that have been fought , apart from WW2 ,and the american civil war.

Yeah , korea ,vietnam , the gulf war , weapons of mass destruction , i do not call that fighting for "right and good" , and people who think it is , are delusional.

No one is going to invade australia , according to "military intelligence", { a term i believe is oymoronic}, indonesia is our biggest threat , and they are no real threat , just like no nation is going to invade the US.
My fight is against poverty ,racism and stupidity , and i am aware that i am fighting a losing battle in regards to poverty and stupidity.

My father lived through the fire-bombing of coventry , and lied about his age to join the army and fight on the beaches of D-day , where he was severely wounded , but you know who i admire even more than him, one of my mates mum lived in holland during WW2 , her family hid jews in their home for 2 years , if they were caught , everyone was marched outside and shot , imagine living in fear all the time , to me this is an ultimate act of courage and selflessness.

And no , i will never want to go to war in my own country against my fellow australians , only a person who is completely braindead would even consider doing this .

I treat others the way i expect to be treated myself , man or woman , but i will gladly tell man or woman that they should not go to war , that they should work out there differences in a peaceful manner , using dialogue , not guns .

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 25 January 2013 - 01:32 AM.

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#92 SterlingArcher

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:37 AM

woooohooo! time to renew my wifes life insurance policy!!!
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#93 Russ

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:51 AM

My friends in the Army, who are seasoned combat veterans, are against this. Their response is straighforward. "I do not want them there. It is a matter of life or death. If I am hit or injured, a 5'6" 150lb woman is not strong enough to carry me off the field."

That woman's story is interesting. She states in her interview on Fox News that because of the intensity of training, she lost muscle mass, strength, and coordination to a degree where she was a liability in the field and could not continue with the training.

Thats not good if shes loosing all that while training...

I am all for women doing everything men can do, but its like I heard on the radio, quite simply women aren't built as strong as men when it comes to physically moving people around in the heat of the moment, I want a guy instead of a girl to grab me and pull me to safety.
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#94 aeromotacanucks

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:28 AM

we always say this in Brazilian Aviation when we´re talking about women:

"how can you trust in a being that bleeds every month, and doesn´t die?"

of course women can do many things, carry many things, actually is very nice see a cute face on tought situations instead of those "monster faces" that men do...


but, I´m asking myself, seriously...

men don´t have "periods", since men think about pornografy almost everytime there´s no reason to be worried about...

BUT will a woman be allowed to fight on her "period"? because if will I´m not sure what side will be safer, you guys saw what happen when your girlfriend is on "that time". a terrorist would be "less crazy" than a woman on her period...
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#95 Electro Rock

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:35 AM

One place not many women are going to cut it is in the infantry, not so much the fighting aspect but in hauling their gear around.

American soldiers travel heavy, some guys are going on patrol with as much as 120 lbs of gear, few women are going to be able to lug that kind of load around for a prolonged period, and most of the ones that do are going to suffer from a lot of short and long term joint and back injuries.

It's either that or they go out lighter and quite possibly become a liability.
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#96 Oregon Canucky

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:57 AM

As i have pointed out most historians agree on the fact that there has been "no worthy cause" for any of the wars that have been fought , apart from WW2 ,and the american civil war.

Yeah , korea ,vietnam , the gulf war , weapons of mass destruction , i do not call that fighting for "right and good" , and people who think it is , are delusional.

No one is going to invade australia , according to "military intelligence", { a term i believe is oymoronic}, indonesia is our biggest threat , and they are no real threat , just like no nation is going to invade the US.
My fight is against poverty ,racism and stupidity , and i am aware that i am fighting a losing battle in regards to poverty and stupidity.

My father lived through the fire-bombing of coventry , and lied about his age to join the army and fight on the beaches of D-day , where he was severely wounded , but you know who i admire even more than him, one of my mates mum lived in holland during WW2 , her family hid jews in their home for 2 years , if they were caught , everyone was marched outside and shot , imagine living in fear all the time , to me this is an ultimate act of courage and selflessness.

And no , i will never want to go to war in my own country against my fellow australians , only a person who is completely braindead would even consider doing this .

I treat others the way i expect to be treated myself , man or woman , but i will gladly tell man or woman that they should not go to war , that they should work out there differences in a peaceful manner , using dialogue , not guns .


Language has been around as long as war... if language worked, we would have used it long ago.
I know that might seem kinda cheap but its true...

Im VERY liberal and all for peace and equality but im also Realistic... And saying "everyone should just hug eachother" Is also very idiotic and idealistic... Until you have a real solution (that makes sense, and can be put into action) you had better deal with the fact that we (as humans) ARE stupid, selfish, sadistic and motivated by power and greed.

You KNOW that its true, that there are horrible, selfish people out there. Yet, you dont agree that they would ever try to invade your country or threaten your freedom? I just don't get that...

And as far as everyone else goes...
People are just going to have to have faith in the "Brilliant" minds of the higher-ups. This isnt a new debate. It has been around as long as i can remember. Im sure that the obvious pitfalls have already been pondered and that simple solutions are sometimes the best answers for complicated problems.

Everything will be okay... *pats the thread*

Edited by Oregon Canucky, 25 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.

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#97 Oregon Canucky

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:59 AM

double post

Edited by Oregon Canucky, 25 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.

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#98 iwtl

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:22 AM

As a former serving sapper I would like to add my 2 cents on this but also add 2 things to this discussion.

#1 - The home fires. We had the first women come through with us back in early 90's as we where in UNIKOM ( Iraq/Kuwait on conclusion of the first gulf war ). My wife trusted me and I her during our long seperation for the tour but it really bothered her and her fellow military wives she was friends with. Once you leave the safe confides of camp you forgo the luxury of privacy. From showering to changing to doing ones businuess - its where one can - when one can. From a soldiers point of view after long hours in the hot sun and maybe days without a shower - if we could build our own feild shower - no one was thinking about looking at the person showering .... it was your 2 minutes of shower and not one person would trade a second of that time for a glimpse of the person in the next shower. Our luxury crappers where wooden outhouses that sat 5 ... a tiny wooden partion covered the lower body as you sat. Often there was only 1 such available crapper. When you gotta go you gotta go. Women have no problems taking a dump sitting next to men, it was actually the other way around. Men where too bashful to let er rip with women in the can. This again bothered your spouses back home more than it ever did those in the unit. Sleeping in camp was fully seperated. During the time away each week we slept in the back of our trucks - so yes you could be sleeping side by side with a woman. When it was your down time you where only thinking of sleep - there is nothing sexy about 12 soliders ( 4 or more snoring and pissing everyone off ), stinking and tired trying to get some zzz ... A snoring female soldier got dirty socks tossed on their face equally as men ... no discrimination when you keep others awake. Again this bothered the wifes back home more than it did anyone else.

In camp or where possible the respect of gender is and I'm sure is still a #1 priority. In camp full privacy was always protected and everything from sleeping quarters to washrooms fully seperated and private. It was the wives that where uncomfortable knowing that far from home in waring country that their men where sleeping - showering and toilting next to other woman day in and day out. The problem this presented was with spouses back home being stressed - stress is always SHARED so you end up with stressed soliders who are distracted by worried spouses. Having any soldier worried about relationships back home or the stress of their partners back home is NOT a good thing - distracted soldiers make mistakes.....

What our unit did which many felt really helped was getting all of the spouses back home together socially and connecting them as a support network. For example my wife meeting the husband of a female soldier eased her mind that he too shared the same concerns - it also on some level put them at rest because the impression was knowing that back home "spouses talked and shared letters" meant we would all behave. Truth is it changed nothing in our practise as there was no hanky panky - but the fact that it settle the concerns of spouses back home had a settling effect on us. The above issues where non issues for us but trivilizing them for back home spouses would have been a big mistake. A wife ( or now same sex partner or husband ) back home has the right to be uncomfortable with you being away from home for 6 months being so close to the opposite sex. Ask yourself this ... if your wife at work got naked and jumped into the shower room with male co workers would you be ok with it? Spouses can only use the same comparasion as a civilian as neither group has seen what life in the field is like on a tour for soldiers so both would see it as being uncomfortable - the Military should put equally time in working with soldiers and spouses ... the 2 sides need each other. The other thing they have done or could expand on is having a camera crew follow a unit and tape a day in the life of the unit. Stinking sweaty exhausted soldiers in boxers grabbing a 2 minute shower under a running hose in the middle of the desert seen on film would remove all thoughts of sexy.

#2 - Death. Oddly enough my wife told me her group was concerned about us dying to save a female soldier and dying in the arms of a female solider. On the first part she was afraid that if under attack would my instinct to protect women put me in greater harm as I would over protect her and thus be at greater risk of harm. I explained that instict to have your fellow soliders back is there no matter what the gender is ... In the trench so to speak - there is no geder or athiests ... And her second death concern was that if the unspeakable happened that it could be in the arms of a female soldier you pass away and it bothered her to think that it would another woman that last held you. Keep in mind - she and every other spouse has the right to those feelings and its not their job to deal with them - its the armys job to help them over come it. A few of the spouses where RN's and during one of the social get togethers spoke to the group and explained that in WW2 and Korea that a very large number of Canada's dead and wounded where last held or spoken to by female RN's and that nearly 100% of all civilain deaths that occur in Hospital it is also a female RN more often than not that is the last person to hold or speak with them..


My point in sharing the above is that for the most part it is not the actual soldiers that have any problems with females serving. Those female sappers had to pass 100% of the same tests and course as the men and to the same pass standard - FULL STOP.They did not get a free pass. Sure back in camp in a more relaxed enviroment some issues came up but that's always happened and women have always served in support roles.The main people with the problems where not the soliders but everyone else. The public that is not the family of those serving can quite frankly get stuffed if they don't like it - it has nothing to do with them. The concerns of the partners though is very valid and needs to be addressed on their level to help them deal with it. Simply telling a wife or husband that this is year 2013 and to get over it would never be acceptable - they have the right to their fears and in the end the old saying of "a happy wife is a happy life" really applies here ... If the army can help the families to get past the issue of both genders serving side by side and assist them to to be at peace with it ... it will help the soliders serving greatly. The problem for the most part is everyone elses but those serving.

And to the posters saying that male soliders have to go on patrol with 120+ lb's of gear and few women could do that - you are 100% correct. But you forgot to add few men can do that as well. Through the same PT testing of all combat soldiers those that can do it - will - those that fail wont. There are men that fail their basic or QL3's as well. None of those men would be on that patrol and now you can say that women who fail the same test will equally be failed. Any women on patrol would have earned that position in the same manner as the man so don't worry. And for the record - every single man who lugs that much gear also suffers from a lot of short and long term joint and back injuries. I sound like a chorus of stomp every time I stand up with all my joints cracking .......
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#99 Oregon Canucky

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

iwtl,

I have to admit... this is a pretty realistic and potentially problematic concern...

Even though i would like to say "hey its 2013, get over it" to jealous or concerned spouses (as you mentioned), I hadnt really pondered how spouses feelings would actually affect the soldiers performance/safety.

Sometimes people are uncomfortable with things and they throw out every possible "but" and "what-if". Most of the concerns seem so shallow and ignorant that it blinds us to the REAL/RATIONAL problems that can be created by changing a policy.

All of that being said, I do think this is a problem that CAN be resolved (or at least addressed and minimized). I hope the brilliant minds higher-up think like you do because if they do, we can count on women being a productive part of our combat fighters while minimizing the negative side-effects of political/emotional/social/physical pit falls.

I imagine in the beginning this will be a bit of a rough ride, but we as a country, owe this to ourselves. Let us practice what we preach and find reasonable solutions to promote equality and empower EVERYONE. It may be hippy mumbo-jumbo but everyone should have the right to realize their dreams and live up to their potential.

Edited by Oregon Canucky, 25 January 2013 - 12:47 PM.

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#100 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:31 PM

As a former serving sapper I would like to add my 2 cents on this but also add 2 things to this discussion.

Spoiler


Thank you!! :)

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 25 January 2013 - 12:31 PM.

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#101 Tearloch7

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:32 PM

Thank you!! :)


Yes .. a tremendous perspective well shared ..
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#102 Captain Aerosex

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

So long as they can perform to the same standards as the rest of their outfit is supposed to, fine by me. Yes, they're less likely to be able to meet those standards, but if they can they have every right to fight alongside men.

but, I´m asking myself, seriously...

men don´t have "periods", since men think about pornografy almost everytime there´s no reason to be worried about...

BUT will a woman be allowed to fight on her "period"? because if will I´m not sure what side will be safer, you guys saw what happen when your girlfriend is on "that time". a terrorist would be "less crazy" than a woman on her period...


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Edited by Witchcraft and Sedinery, 25 January 2013 - 12:38 PM.

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#103 aeromotacanucks

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:44 PM

So long as they can perform to the same standards as the rest of their outfit is supposed to, fine by me. Yes, they're less likely to be able to meet those standards, but if they can they have every right to fight alongside men.



Posted Image


I´m just kidding dude. my sister is a court judge here, a very feared one by the way, I know that women can do everything they want. with some rare situations they can´t of course...
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#104 Buggernut

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

The idea is ABSURD but at this point I expect nothing less from our devolving society. Your average caveman had more common sense and awareness of sex differences when it came to work assignment. For my part, I would sooner die (likely from embarrassment alone) than have a woman I know engage in mortal combat on my behalf.


Then get up on your feet and join the fight alongside your sister.

Wouldn't you rather have a war hawk woman take a bullet than a conscientiously objecting man?
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#105 Buggernut

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

I treat others the way i expect to be treated myself , man or woman , but i will gladly tell man or woman that they should not go to war , that they should work out there differences in a peaceful manner , using dialogue , not guns .


But the problem is, the powerful people who make the decisions and call the wars do so from the comfort and safety of their own homes without ever setting foot in battle, while other more expendable people make all the sacrifices on their behalf. Behold this long shameful list...

http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/
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#106 Tearloch7

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

But the problem is, the powerful people who make the decisions and call the wars do so from the comfort and safety of their own homes without ever setting foot in battle, while other more expendable people make all the sacrifices on their behalf. Behold this long shameful list...

http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/


Geez .. some of my least favorite folks on there .. anyone who declares war on behalf of their country should have to ensure their children, or relatives, are at the front of the charge ..
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#107 iwtl

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:10 PM

So long as they can perform to the same standards as the rest of their outfit is supposed to, fine by me. Yes, they're less likely to be able to meet those standards, but if they can they have every right to fight alongside men.



Posted Image


There is a factual truth that must be accepted. The facts are that women will have a higher failure rate on the PT testing then men do. And that's ok. So long as when a women does pass she is seen as an equal. I would never support anyone asking for 2 different standards on testing and I am sure there are things out there that woman pass in higher numbers then men ever would and that too is ok.
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#108 jmfaminoff

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

As a former serving sapper I would like to add my 2 cents on this but also add 2 things to this discussion.

#1 - The home fires. We had the first women come through with us back in early 90's as we where in UNIKOM ( Iraq/Kuwait on conclusion of the first gulf war ). My wife trusted me and I her during our long seperation for the tour but it really bothered her and her fellow military wives she was friends with. Once you leave the safe confides of camp you forgo the luxury of privacy. From showering to changing to doing ones businuess - its where one can - when one can. From a soldiers point of view after long hours in the hot sun and maybe days without a shower - if we could build our own feild shower - no one was thinking about looking at the person showering .... it was your 2 minutes of shower and not one person would trade a second of that time for a glimpse of the person in the next shower. Our luxury crappers where wooden outhouses that sat 5 ... a tiny wooden partion covered the lower body as you sat. Often there was only 1 such available crapper. When you gotta go you gotta go. Women have no problems taking a dump sitting next to men, it was actually the other way around. Men where too bashful to let er rip with women in the can. This again bothered your spouses back home more than it ever did those in the unit. Sleeping in camp was fully seperated. During the time away each week we slept in the back of our trucks - so yes you could be sleeping side by side with a woman. When it was your down time you where only thinking of sleep - there is nothing sexy about 12 soliders ( 4 or more snoring and pissing everyone off ), stinking and tired trying to get some zzz ... A snoring female soldier got dirty socks tossed on their face equally as men ... no discrimination when you keep others awake. Again this bothered the wifes back home more than it did anyone else.

In camp or where possible the respect of gender is and I'm sure is still a #1 priority. In camp full privacy was always protected and everything from sleeping quarters to washrooms fully seperated and private. It was the wives that where uncomfortable knowing that far from home in waring country that their men where sleeping - showering and toilting next to other woman day in and day out. The problem this presented was with spouses back home being stressed - stress is always SHARED so you end up with stressed soliders who are distracted by worried spouses. Having any soldier worried about relationships back home or the stress of their partners back home is NOT a good thing - distracted soldiers make mistakes.....

What our unit did which many felt really helped was getting all of the spouses back home together socially and connecting them as a support network. For example my wife meeting the husband of a female soldier eased her mind that he too shared the same concerns - it also on some level put them at rest because the impression was knowing that back home "spouses talked and shared letters" meant we would all behave. Truth is it changed nothing in our practise as there was no hanky panky - but the fact that it settle the concerns of spouses back home had a settling effect on us. The above issues where non issues for us but trivilizing them for back home spouses would have been a big mistake. A wife ( or now same sex partner or husband ) back home has the right to be uncomfortable with you being away from home for 6 months being so close to the opposite sex. Ask yourself this ... if your wife at work got naked and jumped into the shower room with male co workers would you be ok with it? Spouses can only use the same comparasion as a civilian as neither group has seen what life in the field is like on a tour for soldiers so both would see it as being uncomfortable - the Military should put equally time in working with soldiers and spouses ... the 2 sides need each other. The other thing they have done or could expand on is having a camera crew follow a unit and tape a day in the life of the unit. Stinking sweaty exhausted soldiers in boxers grabbing a 2 minute shower under a running hose in the middle of the desert seen on film would remove all thoughts of sexy.

#2 - Death. Oddly enough my wife told me her group was concerned about us dying to save a female soldier and dying in the arms of a female solider. On the first part she was afraid that if under attack would my instinct to protect women put me in greater harm as I would over protect her and thus be at greater risk of harm. I explained that instict to have your fellow soliders back is there no matter what the gender is ... In the trench so to speak - there is no geder or athiests ... And her second death concern was that if the unspeakable happened that it could be in the arms of a female soldier you pass away and it bothered her to think that it would another woman that last held you. Keep in mind - she and every other spouse has the right to those feelings and its not their job to deal with them - its the armys job to help them over come it. A few of the spouses where RN's and during one of the social get togethers spoke to the group and explained that in WW2 and Korea that a very large number of Canada's dead and wounded where last held or spoken to by female RN's and that nearly 100% of all civilain deaths that occur in Hospital it is also a female RN more often than not that is the last person to hold or speak with them..


My point in sharing the above is that for the most part it is not the actual soldiers that have any problems with females serving. Those female sappers had to pass 100% of the same tests and course as the men and to the same pass standard - FULL STOP.They did not get a free pass. Sure back in camp in a more relaxed enviroment some issues came up but that's always happened and women have always served in support roles.The main people with the problems where not the soliders but everyone else. The public that is not the family of those serving can quite frankly get stuffed if they don't like it - it has nothing to do with them. The concerns of the partners though is very valid and needs to be addressed on their level to help them deal with it. Simply telling a wife or husband that this is year 2013 and to get over it would never be acceptable - they have the right to their fears and in the end the old saying of "a happy wife is a happy life" really applies here ... If the army can help the families to get past the issue of both genders serving side by side and assist them to to be at peace with it ... it will help the soliders serving greatly. The problem for the most part is everyone elses but those serving.

And to the posters saying that male soliders have to go on patrol with 120+ lb's of gear and few women could do that - you are 100% correct. But you forgot to add few men can do that as well. Through the same PT testing of all combat soldiers those that can do it - will - those that fail wont. There are men that fail their basic or QL3's as well. None of those men would be on that patrol and now you can say that women who fail the same test will equally be failed. Any women on patrol would have earned that position in the same manner as the man so don't worry. And for the record - every single man who lugs that much gear also suffers from a lot of short and long term joint and back injuries. I sound like a chorus of stomp every time I stand up with all my joints cracking .......

Sapper... cool MOS. My friends, a couple in 162 and the others are in 4-10, admantly do not want this because it is a safety issue downrange.
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#109 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:03 PM

Language has been around as long as war... if language worked, we would have used it long ago.
I know that might seem kinda cheap but its true...

Im VERY liberal and all for peace and equality but im also Realistic... And saying "everyone should just hug eachother" Is also very idiotic and idealistic... Until you have a real solution (that makes sense, and can be put into action) you had better deal with the fact that we (as humans) ARE stupid, selfish, sadistic and motivated by power and greed.

You KNOW that its true, that there are horrible, selfish people out there. Yet, you dont agree that they would ever try to invade your country or threaten your freedom? I just don't get that...

And as far as everyone else goes...
People are just going to have to have faith in the "Brilliant" minds of the higher-ups. This isnt a new debate. It has been around as long as i can remember. Im sure that the obvious pitfalls have already been pondered and that simple solutions are sometimes the best answers for complicated problems.

Everything will be okay... *pats the thread*


Tell me , who do you think is going to invade Australia , and why would they do this ?
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#110 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:09 PM

But the problem is, the powerful people who make the decisions and call the wars do so from the comfort and safety of their own homes without ever setting foot in battle, while other more expendable people make all the sacrifices on their behalf. Behold this long shameful list...

http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/


I know mate that that many of our military and political leaders are people such as you describe , so far it has only been men that have been sent to fight and die in pointless wars , are people really advocating that we send women to their death in this way.

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 25 January 2013 - 03:10 PM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#111 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

I hate to be the one to Godwin the thread but.........how fortunate are we that the Jews weren't wiped off the face of the earth by a madman? The Romany? Those deemed 'mentally defective' across Europe? How fortunate are we that German isn't the national language in countries across Europe who are today, free to embrace their own autonomy and not that imposed upon them by a madman? How fortunate are many countries that they are free to embrace their own culture and language instead of that of the Japanese? Do you see what I'm saying? There are good things that can come out of wars....not all wars are fought for pointless reasons......and sometimes dialogue does not resolve the problem. I would love to live in a world where war does not exist...but when all attempts to rein in a madman fail, what is one to do? I do appreciate where you're coming from, D, I do! :)

Women have already been dying in the wars being fought ..it's just now they will have official recognition and pay for the job they have already been doing while serving their country.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 25 January 2013 - 03:27 PM.

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#112 iwtl

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

I know mate that that many of our military and political leaders are people such as you describe , so far it has only been men that have been sent to fight and die in pointless wars , are people really advocating that we send women to their death in this way.


Yes - we are
http://en.wikipedia....Nichola_Goddard

Captain Goddard freely chose to enter into an occupation she knew that in combat put her at a high risk of harm or death. The fact that this officer was a she vs being a he is irrelevent. This officer accepted the risks and died while being exposed in her role as crew commander - leading. If women dream to be those leaders and pass the tests/courses to move into those combat roles - then the real question is if we as a nation are advocating that women can take on roles that risk their lives and the answer is Yes.
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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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#113 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

I hate to be the one to Godwin the thread but.........how fortunate are we that the Jews weren't wiped off the face of the earth by a madman? The Romany? Those deemed 'mentally defective' across Europe? How fortunate are we that German isn't the national language in countries across Europe who are today, free to embrace their own autonomy and not that imposed upon them by a madman? How fortunate are many countries that they are free to embrace their own culture and language instead of that of the Japanese? Do you see what I'm saying? There are good things that can come out of wars....not all wars are fought for pointless reasons......and sometimes dialogue does not resolve the problem. I would love to live in a world where war does not exist...but when all attempts to rein in a madman fail, what is one to do? I do appreciate where you're coming from, D, I do! :)

Women have already been dying in the wars being fought ..it's just now they will have official recognition and pay for the job they have already been doing while serving their country.


I have pointed out BB that i as most people call WW2 a war that had to be fought , and that there were far more heroic acts away from the battlefields , people risking and losing their lives in their attempts to save others from the attrocities of the death camps.

I will never argue about a woman , or mans right to do WeverTF they want , until those action affects others in a negative way , that's when someone else has the right to step and call you/me on your/mine actions.

Like i have said all along , i believe most women are smarter than men in regards to listening to the BS that our military and political leaders use to motivate young men to go and fight and die in pointless wars .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#114 Electro Rock

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

I think the Cold War needed to be fought more than WW2 did, at least from a North American perspective. The Soviet Empire was a FAR greater threat on all levels than the stupid thug Axis Powers.
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#115 Tearloch7

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

Lets hear it for the War On Drugs .. America has to always be "at War" with something .. Terror, Obesity, Poverty, Common Sense
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#116 Buggernut

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:30 AM

I know mate that that many of our military and political leaders are people such as you describe , so far it has only been men that have been sent to fight and die in pointless wars , are people really advocating that we send women to their death in this way.


If they're pro-war blowhards like Ann Coulter, why not?
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#117 Buggernut

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:56 AM

I think the Cold War needed to be fought more than WW2 did, at least from a North American perspective. The Soviet Empire was a FAR greater threat on all levels than the stupid thug Axis Powers.


If this was any indication of Soviet intelligence, I'd say we had absolutely nothing to fear from them.

Posted Image
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#118 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:13 AM

If this was any indication of Soviet intelligence, I'd say we had absolutely nothing to fear from them.

Posted Image



There are some bloody good bands on that list .

Laughing my ass off at the description of julio iglesias as being a neo-fascist and the village people being violent :lol:
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#119 Buggernut

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:45 AM

There are some bloody good bands on that list .

Laughing my ass off at the description of julio iglesias as being a neo-fascist and the village people being violent :lol:


They also completely missed the Village People for homosexuality.
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#120 sam13371337

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:22 AM

one last thing i want to point out for the people using ww2 as an example:

yes there were women recruited in ww2. but when one looks at the scale of that war. a TOTAL WAR where so many nations were throwing absolutely everything they had at it, where it was a fight for national survival. the recruitment of women, especially into combat roles was almost nonexistent when compared to the scale of the need.

countries threw boys as young as 9 into the battlefield before adult women. prejudices such as race were put aside. it went as far as black men serving in the SS
Posted Image



in the height of apartheid in south africa, it was widely documented that black/white soldiers were equals in the army side by side. "apartheid doesnt exist in the army" was the motto.

Even in the closing stages of the civil war, the confederates were about to mass-recruit blacks in the army.

military need has always outweighed stereotypes,prejudices, and old fashioned ways of thinking.

the reason women have never been aloud in combat for the most part has always been practical. no amount of political correctness will ever change natural biology.
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