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Templeton Peck

[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 5.0

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Thats a fair concern?

Just wish full thinking on my part that we could scoop them panicking...? As good as they are, they could get caught with their pants down; their formula breaks down with leadership. After how many years as a very good team, they must be wondering what it's going to take?

B)

Is there a Ray Bourque out there? That might be the real race...

No way can we make a team as good as San Jose better.

I don't see a scenario where we ever make a trade with them.

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Pavelski? Thornton? Clowe? Those are 3 good forwards that I'd love to have on this team.

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Dya-kno

If SJ decided to re-tool on the fly; they would still have a ridiculously good team if they jettisoned Thornton and re-signed Clowe?

Thornton (who extends for 5 years and $60 gillion dollars) and Lou to Philly; Bryzgalov and Couturiere to SJ, Braden Schenn, Niemi and a SJ first to the Canucks.

:bigblush:

Pavelski? Thornton? Clowe? Those are 3 good forwards that I'd love to have on this team.

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I would sit, or trade Higgins personally. But if its Brouwer and MoJo; its not an issue for our cap this year. Watch top cup favorites; they always have seriously good players, even in the press box as healthy scratches. But then they come needed.

Raymond does look very good this year; burst and stop then an added element of puck control and passing instead of just going wide for a weak shot or getting knocked down. He's added an element of deception to his game.

Booth is just such a match up problem for other teams; lightning speed and he's very big and strong. Go back 8 (?) years and look at Edmonton's last cup finals team. They were slammed for having questionable talent, Pronger aside, but had so many guys like Booth who were big and fast (including Torres) to control match ups. So when his scoring or passing is off, his line still draws big guys in match ups which free's the Twins.

You guys, Ossi and yourself, are great hockey fans. I come from a coaching background. You get excited by the best talent, which is fair enough. If I don't have anyone as good as the Twins, I look at how many guys i can beat up and take out of the picture; ref's swallow come play off time. I look at our team and see ways to put them in positions that are hard to deal with.

- First thing I'm doing is sending guys to chat with Bieksa (who can't resist) and pound Tanev who is small. Then we all see what happens when Edler or Ballard play on their off side; they start making mistakes. And I lick my chops when Alberts plays or when I see Raymond alone in a corner.

- I'm loading big guys on the Twins and daring Kesler's line to win the game against my top line.

-I save a big behemoth to sit in front of the net on the PP when Garrison is not on the ice, nobody else can move him. (And this btw is the biggest benefit to adding Garrison not his shot, we had no one last year).

- I send a big fast for-check but zone off the neutral zone at the same time. Vancouver has numerous dangerous passing D, but nobody who can lug the puck out against pressure.

FYI I did not make these idea's up; observed them being executed by Quenneville, Suter, Trotz and Julien. And watched as we ran out of bodies who could compete.

Look, if Kesler, Booth and ? can stay healthy playing hell bent hockey for 16 wins, great! But what has looked like a cup winner has broken down right there the last 4 play off years! A little extra depth would do it!

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So far it looks like the best play for Gillis could have been Luongo for Schenn and some other pieces, and swapping him for JVR.

JVR is breaking out this year with 8 goals in 13 games. I thought last year would be the year for him, but I guess it's this year. Philly was dumb to give up on him at 23, at least they should have got more for him than Schenn.

JVR - Kesler - Booth, or JVR - Kesler - Kassian would have been a beastly second line.

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Whew; I read that whole thing... But I owed you that, cuz I don't usually have a gift of cutting to the chase myself... :bigblush:

Point 1) Watch game 6 and 7 against Boston. What is UNMISTAKEABLE is the Twins and Burrows taking defensive zone draws against Lucic/Thornton/Krecji. Same for the San Jose game this year against Thornton Pavelski, when Manny was not played?

That is NOT the match up we want. That is the point, and our depth getting injured is what put us in that position.

Its not that we were soft, fark Linden should have been proud of the the effort, and the guts, and the hitting (which you have mentioned). But no matter how you slice it Kesler was hurt and no longer effective, Samuelsson (which is why he is gone, he is better than Booth) was gone as was Raymond. So what else is AV to do but give the Sedin's a crack???

So the conclusion to that point; Our 2knd line this year has not even played because they are injury prone. And they are the guys we will be relying on to shelter the Twins from match up's we don't want? Schroeder/Raymond/Hansen is exciting, but no way in hell is AV trusting them for a D zone draw against Thornton, or Getzlaf, or Rick Nash, or Lucic.

So we need more help!

Point 2;

Just commenting on your Schroeder note. Schroeder could be fine. I watched him back checking and fore-checking disrupting plays last game. He has speed, and he's feisty... And he scored two goals. But he's 5'7"! We can only put him on in certain circumstance. Hey, Raymond Hansen and him absolutely fly! As long as we have two other lines to play defence, we can play that line at home when we have match up control. We need options where he has 210 or 215 lb guys who can skate if he's on a defensive assignment.

Hence me not shutting down Brouwer altogether... even though he's not my favorite.

Point 3; Booth can be better than Samuelsson (I hope)? But only cuz Samuelsson was becoming injury prone (knock on wood, where is Booth). Sammy was out for our whole playoff run, but was 220 lbs so effective in corners and against big D even without Booths athleticism. And he's a better passer and hockey IQ guy. And he was a RIGHT wing. So he could play with the Twins when they were over matched playing with Burr. Now, the bottom line on Booth is his athleticism is plain better, combined with Kesler its awsome. The line just needs a 3rd cog. If Kass can continue to hang with the Twins, Burr possibly makes it 2knd only to Malkins line in the league and only LA's 2knd line even enters the conversation. That line just never gelled cuz we did not find a 3rd cog last year!

I'm with you on Booth and Raymond, I love how you broke down both & what they bring, especially Booth.

Here's the thing though, the argument is this team was too soft against Boston, which perhaps we were. Against LA? I don't think so. But anyways back to Boston.

So we outhit Boston just as much as they outhit us, so though they had the advantage, we weren't dominated physically like some like to think, now look at how much different our team is.

2011 Playoff Line-up:

Daniel - Henrik - Burrows

Raymond - Kesler - Sammuelsson/Higgins

Torres - Lappy - Hansen

Tambellini - Hodgson - Orescovich

Hamhuis - Bieksa

Edler - Ehrhoff

Ballard - Salo

(Might not be correct, just projected)

Then ours today: (Projected when healthy)

Daniel - Henrik - Burrows/Kassian

Booth - Kesler - Kassian/Burrows

Raymond - Schroeder/Lappy - Hansen

Higgins - Manny - Lappy

Weise, Volpatti

Hamhuis - Edler

Garrison - Bieksa

Ballard - Tanev

- Lets just say for the arguments sake Schroeder is kinda on the bubble in the playoffs, sometimes playing sometimes not playing.

Okay now breaking it down:

Sedins, Burrows, Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Higgins, Exc. are all a wash (All the players that were here before)

Booth > Sammuelsson, safe to say it is an upgrade. Booth isn't overly gritty but is bigger, stronger and more physical. Improvement made.

Garrison > Ehrhoff, Garrison is bigger, meaner, more physical, more tough. Another improvement.

Salo = Tanev, Niether players are tough, gritty, exc. It's pretty even.

Kassian = Torres. For toughness, size physicality it is equal, the advantage here is Kassian can play a skill game aswell and slot anywhere in the top 9.

Schroeder = or < Tambellini, both small that play bigger than they are, might give the edge to Tamby as he can be effective in a 4th line role whereas Schroeder is top 9 or bust basically.

Weise > Orescovich, Orescovich could hit the same but Weise fights more and is overall an upgrade.

Now broken down as lines:

Daniel - Henrik - Burrows = Daniel - Henrik - Burrows

Booth - Kesler - Kassian > Raymond - Kesler - Sammuelsson

Raymond - JS - Hansen < Torres - Lappy - Hansen

4th Line + depth guys > 4th Line + depth guys

(Keep in mind for the 3rd line we still have Higgins and Lappy avaliable to use if we want a tougher 3rd line)

Then the defense overall is greater than the old one.

So really when you break it down, with the emergence of Kassian, the additions of Booth, Garrison, Weise, exc. We have gotten alot bigger, alot meaner and alot tougher. This team has much more depth in grit and physicality than the last did.

And in 2011 when we were apparently as soft a button, we still managed to make it the distance in the playoffs just getting to the finals then going 7 with the Big Bad Bruins and outhitting just as much as they outhit us in that series.

After all the improvements that have been made, I think we are just fine myself. That wont be why we don't win the cup and it wasn't the last time either.

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Taking the verbal diarrhea out of that post;

We still have match ups we could not win and cannot win physically against several teams; NYR, St LouIs, Boston, possibly Anaheim...

Can we rely on special teams or goaltending to get us past that (without Erhoff who we do miss)?

Or should we just take care of the matchups...

Whew; I read that whole thing... But I owed you that, cuz I don't usually have a gift of cutting to the chase myself... :bigblush:

Point 1) Watch game 6 and 7 against Boston. What is UNMISTAKEABLE is the Twins and Burrows taking defensive zone draws against Lucic/Thornton/Krecji. Same for the San Jose game this year against Thornton Pavelski, when Manny was not played?

That is NOT the match up we want. That is the point, and our depth getting injured is what put us in that position.

Its not that we were soft, fark Linden should have been proud of the the effort, and the guts, and the hitting (which you have mentioned). But no matter how you slice it Kesler was hurt and no longer effective, Samuelsson (which is why he is gone, he is better than Booth) was gone as was Raymond. So what else is AV to do but give the Sedin's a crack???

So the conclusion to that point; Our 2knd line this year has not even played because they are injury prone. And they are the guys we will be relying on to shelter the Twins from match up's we don't want? Schroeder/Raymond/Hansen is exciting, but no way in hell is AV trusting them for a D zone draw against Thornton, or Getzlaf, or Rick Nash, or Lucic.

So we need more help!

Point 2;

Just commenting on your Schroeder note. Schroeder could be fine. I watched him back checking and fore-checking disrupting plays last game. He has speed, and he's feisty... And he scored two goals. But he's 5'7"! We can only put him on in certain circumstance. Hey, Raymond Hansen and him absolutely fly! As long as we have two other lines to play defence, we can play that line at home when we have match up control. We need options where he has 210 or 215 lb guys who can skate if he's on a defensive assignment.

Hence me not shutting down Brouwer altogether... even though he's not my favorite.

Point 3; Booth can be better than Samuelsson (I hope)? But only cuz Samuelsson was becoming injury prone (knock on wood, where is Booth). Sammy was out for our whole playoff run, but was 220 lbs so effective in corners and against big D even without Booths athleticism. And he's a better passer and hockey IQ guy. And he was a RIGHT wing. So he could play with the Twins when they were over matched playing with Burr. Now, the bottom line on Booth is his athleticism is plain better, combined with Kesler its awsome. The line just needs a 3rd cog. If Kass can continue to hang with the Twins, Burr possibly makes it 2knd only to Malkins line in the league and only LA's 2knd line even enters the conversation. That line just never gelled cuz we did not find a 3rd cog last year!

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Read between the lines and tell me how its a positive?  You can give him all the credit in the world for trying to recover a positive from it since, but its still a bad message...

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leftquote_qotd.jpgIt's pretty simple. The team that works the hardest wins. (We were) outworked, outexecuted, outdetailed, out goaltended -- out-a lot of things.

rightquote_qotd.jpg

— Sharks coach Todd McLellan on San Jose's 6-2 loss in Columbus on Monday

Hey; I ve debated with CDC'ers over the last few days that we cant go with status quo > adding Kassian is not enough physical improvement (we have enough talent!).

What about San Jose, and they're window?

After a 5-0 start no regulation wins.  I remember 2 years ago everyone was salivating over Dan Boyle being a possible rental; but of course they recovered.  Thats a team that needs a shake up?

What can we target???

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Dya-kno

If SJ decided to re-tool on the fly; they would still have a ridiculously good team if they jettisoned Thornton and re-signed Clowe?

Thornton (who extends for 5 years and $60 gillion dollars) and Lou to Philly; Bryzgalov and Couturiere to SJ, Braden Schenn, Niemi and a SJ first to the Canucks.

:bigblush:

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Does anybody think that just maybe, Luongo does not want to go to Toronto.

IMHO Lou wants to go to Florida and if not Florida to a strong Stanley Cup Contender.

The Leafs certainly do not fit into either of those criteria.

Lou has the last say, and Lou knows better than to outrightly say I will not go to Toronto because they suck. The Toronto Press would destroy him.

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This team needs another top 9 forward who brings size and toughness. Only real change in top 6 has been Kass and unfortunately I don't think he's ready to take on 1st line load yet. In a couple of years yes, but currently he's better suited on 3rd or 4th line.

We need another guy who can play on 1st, 2nd or 3rd line. Someone who brings size and toughness and scores some goals.

Brouwer gives you the player you need.

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This team needs another top 9 forward who brings size and toughness. Only real change in top 6 has been Kass and unfortunately I don't think he's ready to take on 1st line load yet. In a couple of years yes, but currently he's better suited on 3rd or 4th line.

We need another guy who can play on 1st, 2nd or 3rd line. Someone who brings size and toughness and scores some goals.

Brouwer gives you the player you need.

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Well; if you're really counting Burrows is a LW playing on the Sedin's right side.

It's great, smashing actually ::D , when it works. But it's also a 3 x 185 lb line that has been susceptible to size match up issues; cue Zack Kassian as a fill in, or Samuelsson when he stayed healthy in past play off's... Maybe that option solves everything? But it also only works when we do a good job controlling match up's; for all the chat about Hodgson receiving sheltered minutes the Sedins/Burrows received the highest O'zone starts of any line in the league, several years in a row. And I've heard you complain many times about AV's failure to control match up's, in reality its a depth problem.

When injuries, or creative coaches in a 7 game series, take that match up away we have had to rely on depth scoring. And each of the years we lost (save the Byfuglien year when they were just too big) attrition on the 2knd and 3rd line due to constant pounding left us with no depth scoring if the Twins were shut down. Further, when those injuries occured, see Sedin taking D draws against Lucic / Krecji, we could no longer shelter the Twins.

That is why we still need depth forwards with size!

The way I see it, picking up a Brouwer means Burrows, Kassian and him can be alternated to whichever line needs size; Burrows becomes the ultimate roamer playing left or right. And how bad can it be deciding to choose Raymond or Higgins to fill in on the 4th line?

If not Brouwer, someone similar. Its a problem championship teams have!

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Excellent posts. I am not as worried about picking up draft pics or prospects in a Lou trade than ensuring Van has enough big bodies. Your scenarios above are bang on. As far as prospects go, especially if Van wins the CUP, can be acquired during the pre-draft period. Ballard, Raymond and Higgins are all options. With them wearing CUP rings the value goes up.

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They just re-signed him, didn't they?

Do you think they will trade him?

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I thought the team with the "mystery player" was San Jose (the mystery guy being Gomez). And I was hoping the trade would be Luongo for Pavelski. Add in Raymond or Higgins on our side, and Niemi on theirs, and salaries are a wash. Who knows - we may have had a deal going with San Jose, but with the way they started the year, they probably backed out to see how it would pan out.

But DeNiro makes a good point - it's a scary thought to hand that team an all-star goaltender. On the other hand, if we don't, I could see Calgary sending Kipper there once they come to the realization that they are not going anywhere this year.

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