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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 5.0


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#691 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

meh, I don't think so.......grossly, grossly over rated. Good skater, but small, soft and one dimensional. He'd get eaten alive in the West......not to mention, where is he going to play? The d-corp is pretty locked up atm.

This is set t be one of the deepest drafts in a long time........the Leafs are trying to rebuild, they'll keep their picks


Gardiner is one of there most important defensemen, already playing top 4 as a rookie, the guy was uber impressive in the AHL.

Gardiner isn't nearly as overrated as you think.
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#692 lowest common denominator

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

Aren't we chock full of over rated pretty boi americans?

Kesselpffft

Edited by scottiecanuck, 28 January 2013 - 04:33 PM.

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#693 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

This, simply put, is incorrect. Not my opinion, but completely not true. If you bothered to look it up instead of just spouting off opinion you'd have known that was false.

In the last 3 seasons (before the current one) CC had 8 fights while RT has had 9. Not a huge difference, but your statement is wrong nevertheless.


Edit: Nvm.

I was wrong, by 1 fight. That's fine. Clutterbuck is still a better player.

Although it is worth nothing Raffi has played more games.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 28 January 2013 - 04:38 PM.

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#694 Nuxfanabroad

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

Yeah, picking up Kessel we sure would be getting bigger/nastier for spring wars.MAYBE, if TO ate lots of our cap, eg:

Luongo, Booth, Ballard, Sauve- for: Kessel, Biggs, Ashton/Colborne, Komisarek, perhaps a 2nd?

We open up cap, esp for next year. Get more youth/size up front, in prospects. Buy out Komi(does he have another yr?)

TO can try & weasel outa' the horrendous Kessel deal-just move on from it. If Luongo plays well it eases the sting. The other 2 players(US-they must love), offer experience & speed.

Don't even know if I'd find this agreeable-just trying to figure HOW Gillis would accept Phil(w/ his baggage)...
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#695 DeNiro

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

Why are people talking about Kessel all of a sudden?
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#696 frazzY

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

Why are people talking about Kessel all of a sudden?


Lol no kidding. MG isnt dumb
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#697 Trebreh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

Edit: Nvm.

I was wrong, by 1 fight. That's fine. Clutterbuck is still a better player.

Although it is worth nothing Raffi has played more games.


I'd say their preety similar players.

Hitting: Torres
Hockey IQ: slight edge to CC
Fighting: Even

Torres is probably one of the most feared forecheckers in the game, he puts the fear of God to defenders when on the forecheck.
Clutterbuck might be the more consistent hitter, but he's not a devastating hitter like Torres. He could turn a game with a single hit (Thornton,Seabrook) Good or bad he's a impactful player.

I thought one of MG's mistakes was not bringing back Torres, he's had a great chemistry with Hansen and Lappiere during our cup run..
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#698 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:57 PM

Well, Garrison is an upgrade in the sense of toughness certainly, and as a two way D.But he's Salo's replacement, not our German buddy's. So far our team D looks ordinary with Edler playing his off - side to accomodate Garrison. We are still very weak on the right side! Nor have we replaced Erhoff's ability to put the puck on his stick and carry the puck up ice against pressure.

So we have yet to see any sense of D play as good as our finals year. I suppose (sincerely) having Vandermeer add's that extra element of toughness, should we have occasion to call on depth, and Barker is 225 odd lbs. But Hamhuis and Bieksa had trouble with San Jose's size up in our Top 4 and Edler/Garrison clearly have not gelled yet. Thats on D.

The San Jose game displayed obvious size mis match problem, albeit with Booth, Manny (coaches decision ???) and Kesler out. We'll have to see if AV can put our world beating D back into game form, but there are obvious needs up front which should be addressed as well.

Even at full health with Booth and Kesler back, the way I see it we should be moving a left wing, a left D (Ballard/Garrison/Edler/Bieksa is $19.3 mill per year) and a goalie to make room for a right D, a big right wing, a centre and a back up goalie in no particular order. Not at full strength we're clearly getting our lunch handed to us in size match up problems which might be solved making moves we need to make anyway...

I realize Old News promised everyone here Garrison was superb on the right side knocking one of those off the table.... :rolleyes: , I still say we also would like to that D trade to incorporate a puck rushing D into that equation. And if it was a left side puck rushing D (Leddy, Gardiner) then in fact we need to move two left D to get the perfect mix?

Well that's why we went out and got Barker and Vandermeer.

Our D was good enough to get us to the finals, and replacing Ehrhoff with Garrison is only an upgrade in the toughness department.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 28 January 2013 - 05:01 PM.

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#699 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:57 PM

I'd say their preety similar players.

Hitting: Torres
Hockey IQ: slight edge to CC
Fighting: Even

Torres is probably one of the most feared forecheckers in the game, he puts the fear of God to defenders when on the forecheck.
Clutterbuck might be the more consistent hitter, but he's not a devastating hitter like Torres. He could turn a game with a single hit (Thornton,Seabrook) Good or bad he's a impactful player.

I thought one of MG's mistakes was not bringing back Torres, he's had a great chemistry with Hansen and Lappiere during our cup run..


Fighting: Even

Mobility: Clutterbuck

Offense: Clutterbuck

Defense/PKing: Clutterbuck

Hitting/Physicality: Raffi

IQ: Edge to Clutterbuck

Consistentcy: Clutterbuck

Torres is feared for his size and hitting, but he is as streaky as they come. Clutterbuck is more rounded and bring alot of the same qualities and additional aspects aswell.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 28 January 2013 - 04:59 PM.

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#700 Pears

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

Lol no kidding. MG isnt dumb

So you're saying it would be a bad idea to bring in one of the best pure goal scorers in the game? Lol :picard:
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#701 Edlerberry

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

This, simply put, is incorrect. Not my opinion, but completely not true. If you bothered to look it up instead of just spouting off opinion you'd have known that was false.

In the last 3 seasons (before the current one) CC had 8 fights while RT has had 9. Not a huge difference, but your statement is wrong nevertheless.


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Toronto will take a step back next year.
Feel free to quote me.


July 8-2013

Wow I can't believe peoples replies...
Im done here. You people are disgusting..


#702 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

Kessel isn't happening.

Not sure where this idea is coming from.
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#703 Trebreh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:07 PM

Fighting: Even

Mobility: Clutterbuck

Offense: Clutterbuck

Defense/PKing: Clutterbuck

Hitting/Physicality: Raffi

IQ: Edge to Clutterbuck

Consistentcy: Clutterbuck

Torres is feared for his size and hitting, but he is as streaky as they come. Clutterbuck is more rounded and bring alot of the same qualities and additional aspects aswell.


How is Clutterbuck's offense better than Torres?

CC
http://www.hockeydb....y.php?pid=76786

Torres
http://www.hockeydb....y.php?pid=42312

Those stats look preety similar to me. Also, if Clutterbuck was is more consistent, then he'd have more points than Torres.

Defense and PKing to CC? He's been a minus on all 4 years he's been on the leauge playing in one of the most defence oriented team in the NHL.

Mobility is also even, if Torres is not mobile, he'd never be able to hit anyone. CC is overrated, his hit count is inflated in Minny.
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#704 NME

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

most of them were still in diapers. they have no idea what "bad" goaltending looks like. we should show them old tapes of essensa, snow, potvin, irbe, and the saviour alex auld (who was actually good compared to the rest of them). might be unfair to irbe actually he was an average goalie in the NHL in vancouver.

but you get the point, canuck fans have no idea what goaltending like the leafs/canucks of the 90's had looks like on a nightly basis - it aint pretty.

most of them were still in diapers. they have no idea what "bad" goaltending looks like. we should show them old tapes of essensa, snow, potvin, irbe, and the saviour alex auld (who was actually good compared to the rest of them). might be unfair to irbe actually he was an average goalie in the NHL in vancouver.

but you get the point, canuck fans have no idea what goaltending like the leafs/canucks of the 90's had looks like on a nightly basis - it aint pretty.


Essensa, and Irbe were not the problem. They were servicable backups. Hell, Irbe could have probably been a starter for the Canucks. The problem was always the starting goalie in the late 90's. Mclean's standup style didn't work in 95-98, Sean Burke didn't work out, they tried to turn Garth Snow into a starter, they acquired Kevin Weekes and labelled him the goalie of the future, and finally they overpaid for Felix Potvin. The backup was never a problem. Essensa, Irbe, and even Snow as a back up all did great in that role.
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#705 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:10 PM

I'd say their preety similar players.

Hitting: Torres
Hockey IQ: slight edge to CC
Fighting: Even

Torres is probably one of the most feared forecheckers in the game, he puts the fear of God to defenders when on the forecheck.
Clutterbuck might be the more consistent hitter, but he's not a devastating hitter like Torres. He could turn a game with a single hit (Thornton,Seabrook) Good or bad he's a impactful player.

I thought one of MG's mistakes was not bringing back Torres, he's had a great chemistry with Hansen and Lappiere during our cup run..


Lets just say we could use either Torres or Clutterbuck? Either helps our forward depth and could legitimize our 3rd lines ability to match up size wise, and shield the twins from having to match up against bigger line ups. We should be looking for a guy like this, or a top line right wing, where Kassian can fall somewhere into the mix.

Clutterbuck is probably better and he's also the more needed RIGHT wing; But he's also a big fan favorite in Minny; it will take a very good hockey offer to pry him loose.

But for the conversation here its not like we're going to offer Lou for either Torres or Clutterbuck?

Edit: Nvm.

I was wrong, by 1 fight. That's fine. Clutterbuck is still a better player.

Although it is worth nothing Raffi has played more games.


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#706 fagin

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

Kessel isn't happening.

Not sure where this idea is coming from.

..Is it possibly because we don't have a goal scorer to match him.
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#707 Vansicle

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

creative license

-_-

Understood. I confess it was a nerd move on my part. It's an OCD thing. Apologies.
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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#708 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:17 PM

How is Clutterbuck's offense better than Torres?

CC
http://www.hockeydb....y.php?pid=76786

Torres
http://www.hockeydb....y.php?pid=42312

Those stats look preety similar to me. Also, if Clutterbuck was is more consistent, then he'd have more points than Torres.

Defense and PKing to CC? He's been a minus on all 4 years he's been on the leauge playing in one of the most defence oriented team in the NHL.

Mobility is also even, if Torres is not mobile, he'd never be able to hit anyone. CC is overrated, his hit count is inflated in Minny.


How? And I can't make the same argument that Torres point count was inflated by playing top 6 in edmonton?

I don't mean consistentcy just in scoring, just overall, Torres is a far more streaky player, not sure how it is debatable, Torres is renound for being streaky, a great asset when on his game, but is bi-polar as to when he is on and off it.

"most defensive oriented team in the NHL" :lol: Look at there defense core, after Suter and Gilbert it is a near nightmare.

There is a reason Clutterbuck has been a staple on Minnesota's PK for years, and why Raffi isn't often out killing penalties on any team he has been.

If you think Clutterbuck is overrated and Torres is just as good, go on HF board and ask Minnesota fans what they think of that.

Oh and I've already made the argument about Clutterbuck being better than Torres offensively. Here it is:

Clutterbuck has scored 19 and 15 goals on Minnesota's 3rd line.

ASSETS: Excels at the hitting game. Is also a true shift disturber. Has excellent drive and determination. Plays a sound defensive game. Is versatile, industrious and gritty. Can also produce some offense in a complementary role.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnzvJ8RtlmI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVumG5sNPso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6yWDaPujP4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr1dndaETP0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dB48S0Y3xU

No offense to Raffi, but I don't think he has quite the Hands, shot, and poise/patience that Clutterbuck does.

Raffi has some pretty decent offensive skills but can be very streaky, he can score goals in bunches or else you won't see his name on the score sheet for a long time.

Also is a better skater then Raffi, and fights more than Raffi. A better PK option, just overall a more rounded player.

Raffi's playoff experience can be an asset or a huge detractor with the hits he has laid on Seabrook and Hossa.


Edited by Smashian Kassian, 28 January 2013 - 05:21 PM.

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#709 Trebreh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

Lets just say we could use either Torres or Clutterbuck? Either helps our forward depth and could legitimize our 3rd lines ability to match up size wise, and shield the twins from having to match up against bigger line ups. We should be looking for a guy like this, or a top line right wing, where Kassian can fall somewhere into the mix.

Clutterbuck is probably better and he's also the more needed RIGHT wing; But he's also a big fan favorite in Minny; it will take a very good hockey offer to pry him loose.

But for the conversation here its not like we're going to offer Lou for either Torres or Clutterbuck?


Im just saying Torres is basically a cheaper version of Clutterbuck. CC will probably get 3.5-4m on new contract from Minny.
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#710 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

Lets just say we could use either Torres or Clutterbuck? Either helps our forward depth and could legitimize our 3rd lines ability to match up size wise, and shield the twins from having to match up against bigger line ups. We should be looking for a guy like this, or a top line right wing, where Kassian can fall somewhere into the mix.

Clutterbuck is probably better and he's also the more needed RIGHT wing; But he's also a big fan favorite in Minny; it will take a very good hockey offer to pry him loose.

But for the conversation here its not like we're going to offer Lou for either Torres or Clutterbuck?


My proposition was: Higgins and Connaution for Clutterbuck and Graovac.

But yeah I know, it really isn't although every thing gets discussed in this thread, from Luongo, to Kassian/Cody to now Clutterbuck/Torres.
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#711 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

..Is it possibly because we don't have a goal scorer to match him.


I mean realistically. There is no chance he is in a Luongo deal unless Kesler is in it.
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#712 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

Im just saying Torres is basically a cheaper version of Clutterbuck. CC will probably get 3.5-4m on new contract from Minny.


Torrres is making more than Clutterbuck:

Torres - 1.75

Clutterbuck - 1.4
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#713 stawns

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

Gardiner is one of there most important defensemen, already playing top 4 as a rookie, the guy was uber impressive in the AHL.

Gardiner isn't nearly as overrated as you think.


Not like I haven't seen him play alot............he's on TV every Saturday night........I don't find him uber impressive in any way. He does some good things, but I think he has a limited repetoire and ceiling........and is not better than of the Canucks top 6 dmen.
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#714 stawns

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

Understood. I confess it was a nerd move on my part. It's an OCD thing. Apologies.


No worries, I'm totally like that too.
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#715 Trebreh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

How? And I can't make the same argument that Torres point count was inflated by playing top 6 in edmonton?

I don't mean consistentcy just in scoring, just overall, Torres is a far more streaky player, not just how it is debatable, Torres is renound for being streaky, a great asset when on his game, but is bi-polar as to when he is on and off it.

"most defensive oreinted team in the NHL" :lol: Look at there defense core, after Suter and Gilbert it is a near nightmare.

There is a reason Clutterbuck has been a staple on Minnesota's PK for years, and why Raffi isn't often out killing penalties on any team he has been.

If you think Clutterbuck is overrated and Torres is just as good, go on HF board and ask Minnesota fans what they think of that.

Oh and I've already made the argument about Clutterbuck being better than Torres offensively. Here it is:


Minny is known for their trapping, they play a defensive system.

Who else are they gonna put on their PK? their forward depth isnt exactly great.

And ofcourse minny fans will give an unbiased opinion if i ask them who is better?...
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#716 Trebreh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

My proposition was: Higgins and Connaution for Clutterbuck and Graovac.

But yeah I know, it really isn't although every thing gets discussed in this thread, from Luongo, to Kassian/Cody to now Clutterbuck/Torres.


First you pump up Clutterbuck value, then you offer Higgins and Connaughton? :lol: You should "go ask Minny fans what they think of that".
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#717 Trebreh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

Torrres is making more than Clutterbuck:

Torres - 1.75

Clutterbuck - 1.4


Right now yes? new contract 3m+ i bet.
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#718 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

Not like I haven't seen him play alot............he's on TV every Saturday night........I don't find him uber impressive in any way. He does some good things, but I think he has a limited repetoire and ceiling........and is not better than of the Canucks top 6 dmen.


Would rather Gardiner in the line-up than Bieksa right now.

But generally he is probably just as good as Tanev, he just brings different qualities.

He is already a good NHL defenseman, it's a shame people don't give him the credit he deserves because he plays for the Leafs.
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#719 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

Minny is known for their trapping, they play a defensive system.

Who else are they gonna put on their PK? their forward depth isnt exactly great.

And ofcourse minny fans will give an unbiased opinion if i ask them who is better?...


Okay make a thread, it is open to every fan, I guarentee not just Minny fans but everyone would take Clutterbuck over Torres.

And really they don't have depth? Couldn't be further from the truth.

Brodziak, Cullen, Koivu, Parise, Mitchell, Konopka, Powe are all capable of being solid penalty killers, that's 7 guys to fill 2 or 4 slots.

They have other guys who are fully capable, there is a reason Clutterbuck is consistently out killing penalties.
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#720 Trebreh

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:47 PM

Okay make a thread, it is open to every fan, I guarentee not just Minny fans but everyone would take Clutterbuck over Torres.

And really they don't have depth? Couldn't be further from the truth.

Brodziak, Cullen, Koivu, Parise, Mitchell, Konopka, Powe are all capable of being solid penalty killers, that's 7 guys to fill 2 or 4 slots.

They have other guys who are fully capable, there is a reason Clutterbuck is consistently out killing penalties.


Who is the more popular player? Clutterbuck or Torres? it doesnt matter if its an open thread, PPL will go for the more popular of the two....

Torres didnt kill penalties for us because of Kesler, Higgins, Burrows, Raymond, Hansen and Malhotra. If youre the coach of the Wild. would you pick Konopka, Powe, Mitchell and Brodziak for pking duties over Clutterbuck? no.

Im not saying Torres>>>>>>>>>Clutterbuck but Torres is not so different to a player like CC. Torres is like a poor man's clutterbuck and he played on our 4th line.
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