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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 5.0


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#1231 Dragonfruits

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:58 PM

That's what was said about this year. Remember?

first the media built the story that both couldn't be here beginning of the season

the team and gillis knew it wasn't that simple with the lockout there was no deal that could be discussed and gillis like i said before has stated he is not interested in giving away luongo we are not in a panic situation to trade him right away we can do it in the off-season is that really hard to comprehend
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#1232 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:58 PM

I'm blaming him for not dealing with the obvious logjam that we had/have at that position, which has now turned into a circus and we now have two frustrated and annoyed goaltenders.

Do you think this is everything that Schneider had envisioned, when he signed his 3-year extension in June? Think this is how he wanted to start out? As if it's not hard enough to replace the best goalie the franchise has ever had, they're not even trading him yet! :lol:

And how is holding off going to "help us more in the long run"? Huh? "It's not hard to see"? Wha? You're actually banking on the fact that a guy like George McPhee will wake up abruptly in July, and say "I've got it! Let's trade for Roberto Luongo! And let's offer Gillis a better package than he's ever seen!!"

Is that really how you see this playing out?


Absolutely.

Management laid that out as a very possible scenario. Do you think that wasn't talked about the possibility of him staying? this is a 1st class hockey club, not a mickey mouse show. Every possibility about everything is discussed, no stone is left unturned. That was totally discussed and Cory came into the year knowing full well that Roberto could be here and they could be a tandem again.

And it is a good move. Do I think the offers will get better? No. But will they get worse? No probably not.

Here's the thing, the main objective of this season is to win the Stanley cup. So if the deal we get now doesn't improve our chances of achieving that goal, then the deal will not be made. Easy enough to understand??

Cory is our guy moving forward after this year, but right now it is very much a tandem until Roberto is moved.

Then in the summer when Roberto has to go, we can take the package that is there with whatever futures are available.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 01 February 2013 - 04:01 PM.

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#1233 Yotes

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

most teams know MG put himself in a hole when he gave schneider 4m/year. They know MG has to trade Luo as he wants out and wont get full return, especially with the cap getting lowered, and cap penalty on long term contracts.

Its not looking good, hate having this distraction, we could really use some offensive scoring upfront, even when booth and kesler are healthy. Id like to see some cap get freed up with ballard getting moved, yes hes played decent but he gets paid far to much to be a solid #5 d man.

Raymond is another player id move, and we need to make a decision on whats gonna happen with our bottom six. This short season is going to be interesting to see what MG does with the team. Alot of this team has been intact for a long time, and they have shown they just cant get it done, so some changes need to be made
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#1234 Yotes

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:04 PM

Cory is our guy moving forward after this year, but right now it is very much a tandem until Roberto is moved.

Then in the summer when Roberto has to go, we can take the package that is there with whatever futures are available.

If we hold on to Luo till summer the return is gonna be less, as we will then have to trade him due to cap issues, or risk loosing some core bottom 6 players, or loose out on signing a possible FA or trade deadline acquisition.

So yes, I feel we need to move luo before the season is over
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#1235 Niklas Jensen

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

I say pull the friggin trigger on Schneider right now and get us the pieces that will put us over the hump

Schneider, Raymond, Ballard for Weiss, Gudbranson and Matthias

Get'er done, Gillis
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Our D's must make opponent fowards going to the net PAY THE PRICE

#1236 elvis15

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:10 PM

Yeah, NYI, Devils, maybe Red Wings are possibilities for a pre-planned summer trade. Knowing Gillis he's probably got a couple of potential deals frameworked already, but things would be left open in case a team panics and offers a better deal during this season. As has been said endlessly, Panthers, Leafs, Capitals are the most likely suitors if that does happen.

I don't know, I'm surprised by how many people participating in this thread are so quick to shut down certain trade partner ideas. We're talking Gillis here. How often are his trades predictable?

edit - I would also add Philly to the list of teams that might already be talking about an off-season deal, depending on what happens with Bryz over the course of the season.

I don't know if it's pre-planned, but I'd assume Gillis might be aware of their interest and that it'd be of the "not quite yet" variety. I don't see Detroit walking away from Howard, unless they feel they have a really solid option coming up in the next few years, but NYI and NJD both could be in the mix by June. Philly would immediately become #1 most likely if they find a way to deal with Bryz, but until that happens I don't know. There's a lot of wait and see since as you mentioned, Gillis has surprised in the past.

This guy seems pretty happy:

Posted Image


...Wait a minute...is that a strong warning sign?

He's obviously in denial, and denial's the first stage of pretty much everything.
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#1237 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:21 PM

Yes Lou deserves the start!

Food for thought; maybe Lou is being showcased for a trade???

:huh:



Note; any who believe Hodgson was also being showcased are brainwashed. Hodgson was given some offensive zone starts when Kesler and the Twins were struggling. And funny thing; Hodgson led the team in scoring the month he was "showcased." And FTR; we also had a near perfect record and climbed to the top of the NHL. It looked like a good coaching move; and blowing smoke in the media after the fallout nothing more than damage control. Dust in the wind now... Hodgson and Kassian are playng pretty good for their teams, Win / Win?

Couple of thoughts...
Lou deserves the start tonight....
Cody was showcased before he was traded, making sure he looked as good as possible.
I think the team will rally in front of Lou, which is win/win for the Canucks
MG said exactly what I implied a few pages ago, trades happen when they suit our goal & only then
Most on these pages couldn't manage a Peewee team, yet know exactly how to deal with the Canucks
&
KofBS
How’s your Flames prediction working out, you know where the Nucks were out of the playoffs and the Flames were vastly improved?


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#1238 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:26 PM

He's stolen a couple back to back president's trophies too; )

jokes aside... if we trade Luongo who can beat the hawks tonight? Since we need a starting goalie to beat a team with that many weapons.

Troll face.



If I say I think Daniel is our best winger does it mean I'm taking runs at burrows higgy etc? No Daniel is simply our best winger and Luongo is simply our best goalie.

I like Schneider... like Luongo more because in my opinion he's better.


I see. What does the bolded part mean? Just that Luo's our best goalie whereas, by implication, Schneider couldn't beat a team with that many weapons. I think this is obvious nonsense.

Edited by oldnews, 01 February 2013 - 04:26 PM.

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#1239 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:35 PM

Thank God Lou and Cory are better than Tebow and Sanchez!!! ::D

Soon enough, we'll be seeing "Team Lu" and "Team Cory" shirts being sold in Vancouver. It's Conan v. Leno, Sanchez v. Tebow, etc. This is what has happened.


Knee jerk reactons; like firing the team's best ever coach? <_<

And trading Cory Schneider would have been the absolute worst thing to do, I'm glad he put the organization first and thought it out a little longer rather than fans who have knee jerk reactions and overreact to everything.


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#1240 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:41 PM

Apparently you like to twist things sideways rather than reply to points.

Oh and you did it once again.


Simply putting a cap/limit on responding to repetitive, tedious posts running over and over the exact same points without a whiff of novelty. You have more energy/patience for that than I do.
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#1241 thad

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:44 PM

Pretty much everyone here is aware of how good Luongo can be. I am as aware of it as anyone. He provides consistently elite goaltending in the regular season, and in the playoffs he can often steal you a game, or even a series.

However, as I am also aware of, he has repeatedly melted down under high-pressure circumstances. It has happened not once, twice, three, or even four times, but five seperate occasions (four of them resulting in our elimination, one we still pulled out of). It is tough to build a team that is supposed to contend for the cup, only to have your most important player fail you when he is needed most.

Personally, I still think Luongo is a fantastic player, and could be very valuable to a different team, particularly one that is a bubble team, not expected to win it all. For one, he'll almost certainly get a bubble team into the playoffs. Secondly, his ability to steal games and even a whole series could get one of these bubble teams further into the playoffs than they have any business doing. If he does end up crumbling a round or two in, well, nobody would have been expecting the team to go that deep anyways, so it wouldn't be such a big deal.

As for that last point, I think that removal of weight from Luongo's shoulders could do him a world of good. I think his past problems in Vancouver become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. For instance, him choking against the Hawks in 2008-09 and 09-10 was probably in the back of his mind, and his teammates. So as soon as he let in a bad goal in 10-11, it was as though a collective "oh no, here we go again" reverberated not only to the fanbase, but Luongo himself, and to his teammates. The floodgates were open, the team in front of him started to panic and deflate...and it took starting Schneider in game 6 to calm everyone down again. It's in his head, and his teammates' heads as well.

Basically, what I'm saying, is that I think the only way Luongo will get past his inconsistent postseason play is to get out of Vancouver, and start fresh somewhere with less pressure. Could he be a Stanley Cup winning goaltender? Absolutely...but not with the Canucks - not anymore.


I applaud you for this post. Very well said and gives luongo credit but explains exactly why we need to move him sooner or later.

It echoes my thoughts perfectly and I would like to add I think everyone in the Canucks organization feels the same way but it's probably not talked about. I think they know what's up and aren't too worried about when it happens. They all know it is going to happen and when it does everything will be fine. We're obviously going to play he hot goalie while we have em both. Schneider knows and understands this, he took the job from Lu for a little while mid season last yr when he was hot. CS knows the team is his sooner or later and why the hell would he not want gillis to get the best deal for the future of his team?

I truly believe all is well in the dressing room because every single one of them knows exactly what you pointed out in your post.
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#1242 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:45 PM

Even though I didn't want to, I dug up the box score from Game 7 just to show you that you are completely wrong

Vancouver had 37 shots on goal, whereas Boston had a meesly 21 shots on goal, and Luongo let in three of them for a save percentage of just .857. So really again it was actually Tim Thomas that stood on his head that game, not Luongo. Don't believe me? Here's the link. Go count up Boston's shots yourself

http://canucks.nhl.c...m?id=2010030417


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#1243 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:50 PM


Knee jerk reactons; like firing the team's best ever coach? <_<


Touche. :P

No I have wanted AV gone long ago, nothing new from me.
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#1244 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:52 PM

Simply putting a cap/limit on responding to repetitive, tedious posts running over and over the exact same points without a whiff of novelty. You have more energy/patience for that than I do.


Well if you would respond to the points that I make rather than twisting things everytime I say something that doesn't go along well with your argument then I wouldn't need to be reptitive.
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#1245 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

Yes Lou deserves the start!

Food for thought; maybe Lou is being showcased for a trade???

:huh:



Note; any who believe Hodgson was also being showcased are brainwashed. Hodgson was given some offensive zone starts when Kesler and the Twins were struggling. And funny thing; Hodgson led the team in scoring the month he was "showcased." And FTR; we also had a near perfect record and climbed to the top of the NHL. It looked like a good coaching move; and blowing smoke in the media after the fallout nothing more than damage control. Dust in the wind now... Hodgson and Kassian are playng pretty good for their teams, Win / Win?


You're not looking at reality - and therefore are in no position to be calling anyone else brainwashed.

Hansen, who was Hodgson's linemate, got only 40.4% offensive zone starts to Hodgson's 52.3% - Hansen's relative corsi was better nevertheless - the same in the case of Higgins whose 46.6% offensive zone starts and a +2.2 relative corsi indicate that he was a better two way player than the rookie. What that also means is that Hodgson was sheltered from the more difficult aspects of the third line role - the defensive zone starts that his linemates and later Pahlsson (at only 29.7%) were taking. He wasn't ready for the defensive role, he wasn't ready to take Kesler's or Henrik's minutes - he was accommodated by AV, to suit his strengths and maximize his impact, and instead of recognizing that as good coaching, AV was subject to an idiotic campaign by the halfwits at the Province.
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#1246 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

Well if you would respond to the points that I make rather than twisting things everytime I say something that doesn't go along well with your argument then I wouldn't need to be reptitive.


Ok Smashian.
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#1247 elvis15

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

Simply putting a cap/limit on responding to repetitive, tedious posts running over and over the exact same points without a whiff of novelty. You have more energy/patience for that than I do.

What do you think I've been saying for some time now... :rolleyes:

Well if you would respond to the points that I make rather than twisting things everytime I say something that doesn't go along well with your argument then I wouldn't need to be reptitive.

He's becoming more and more like King all the time in this thread. People keep responding to both of them, which is their right, but makes no sense to me.

Edited by elvis15, 01 February 2013 - 04:59 PM.

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#1248 apollo

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:59 PM

I see. What does the bolded part mean? Just that Luo's our best goalie whereas, by implication, Schneider couldn't beat a team with that many weapons. I think this is obvious nonsense.


I said troll face...

Shcneider is a starting goalie. Luongo is just better
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#1249 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:01 PM

What do you think I've been saying for some time now... :rolleyes:


How very unpredictable of you elvis. I was going to subnote that post you quoted but thought better of assuming you'd bother to go there.

Btw - you're not raising the level of the debate or reducing the redundancy here with these posts, are you.

I find this as tedious, with a measure of superiority complex added in - I think I prefer King and Smashian to be honest.

And you've got the wrong poster there - or evidently you've added Smashian to your list of untouchables. Have you read the past 10 pages? It wouldn't appear this thread requires me to respond to King for it to take it's due course.

Edited by oldnews, 01 February 2013 - 05:18 PM.

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#1250 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

I said troll face...

Shcneider is a starting goalie. Luongo is just better


:picard:
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#1251 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:05 PM

He's becoming more and more like King all the time in this thread. People keep responding to both of them, which is their right, but makes no sense to me.


Since I respect you as a poster, I'll start doing my best to cut off arguments that are just spinning around in circles from here on out.

On another note I just purchased Center Ice, and the Flyers and Caps game is starting up pretty quick here, 2 teams potentially in the market and I will get to see them head to head tonight, I should get a better view of what their issues are (If it is actually goaltending or if its defense) and who they might be willing to move.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 01 February 2013 - 05:06 PM.

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#1252 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:06 PM

I said troll face...

Shcneider is a starting goalie. Luongo is just better


Ok - you said troll face.
?
No comprende.
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#1253 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:24 PM

If Bryzgalov continues to play the way he have the Flyers won't ever be in the market for Lu.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 01 February 2013 - 05:25 PM.

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#1254 Yotes

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

thread should be called, smashian, king of es, elvis 15 and old news.
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#1255 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:29 PM

thread should be called, smashian, king of es, elvis 15 and old news.


Ok ERIK.
While you're renaming it, you could create a new thread entitled Kadri would be our top prospect, ahead of Schroeder.
Discuss.
Posted Image

Posted Image
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#1256 elvis15

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

How very unpredictable of you elvis. I was going to subnote that post you quoted but thought better of assuming you'd bother to go there.

Btw - you're not raising the level of the debate or reducing the redundancy here with these posts, are you.

I find this as tedious, with a measure of superiority complex added in - I think I prefer King and Smashian to be honest.

And you've got the wrong poster there - or evidently you've added Smashian to your list of untouchables. Have you read the past 10 pages? It wouldn't appear this thread requires me to respond to King for it to take it's due course.

Just saying you shouldn't be surprised when people say you've been twisting things sideways.

I think you have some reasonable posts, some of which I agree with, some I don't. When you've been responding to King, and even with Smashian now, I've found you to be less about the debate and more about mocking people.

I am trying to at least speak to the Luongo discussion in other posts, in fact I've been replying to a couple of Bookie's posts and we've both made some good points about where Luongo could go. I haven't gotten the feeling you're really doing the same with your posts of late unless it's about beating the same argument you've been having with someone else on a certain point over the last few pages to death.

Just my opinion and I'm not here to tell you you're wrong, just point out how it's being perceived. Forgive me for trying to point it out, I'll not bother you again about it.


Since I respect you as a poster, I'll start doing my best to cut off arguments that are just spinning around in circles from here on out.
...

That's my only point, and how often does this thread become about multiple people replying to just one of King's posts? Those don't go anywhere, and I think we all need (myself included) to do a better job of realizing that. Once we've stated our side of a debate, if someone doesn't agree -or worse, just becomes demeaning or insulting - it's time to move on.

Restating the same things over and over hasn't helped me (in this thread to have people ignore King if they don't agree, or with King myself when I tried to argue in against him in the Weber Offer Sheet thread) so I'll just try and stick to the people offering reasonable points rather than get draw into it all over again.

It's pretty clear others don't want to hear it from any of us.

Edited by elvis15, 01 February 2013 - 05:40 PM.

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#1257 Yotes

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:34 PM

well he would have been. not sure whats ur problem. stating a point that all of you only ever post replies to each others comments

Kadri is a center which is more of a need than a winger for this team. So if he was here all hypothetical of course he would be ahead on jensen. And as of now, Lack is done for the season so lets see how he comes back from his surgery to see if hes lost any of his form first aswell
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#1258 elvis15

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:51 PM

well he would have been. not sure whats ur problem. stating a point that all of you only ever post replies to each others comments

Kadri is a center which is more of a need than a winger for this team. So if he was here all hypothetical of course he would be ahead on jensen. And as of now, Lack is done for the season so lets see how he comes back from his surgery to see if hes lost any of his form first aswell

Well, that's debatable, which I'd hope is what oldnews is saying. He'd be one of our better ones, I agree (ahead of guys like Rodin, Sweatt, Archibald, etc.), but I don't think he'd be the top of my list. He's doing well in any event, so good for him.

To put him in perspective with Luongo, once Toronto dropped Lombardi and Connelly, they pretty much signalled they wouldn't be trading any of the centers on their NHL roster away in a deal. They could move Connelly still, but otherwise they'd be leaving a hole in their lineup, so I think Kadri's out of the picture.

Beyond that, what do you think of the other suggestions, like the discussion Bookie and I were having earlier (see below)?



Yeah, NYI, Devils, maybe Red Wings are possibilities for a pre-planned summer trade. Knowing Gillis he's probably got a couple of potential deals frameworked already, but things would be left open in case a team panics and offers a better deal during this season. As has been said endlessly, Panthers, Leafs, Capitals are the most likely suitors if that does happen.

I don't know, I'm surprised by how many people participating in this thread are so quick to shut down certain trade partner ideas. We're talking Gillis here. How often are his trades predictable?

edit - I would also add Philly to the list of teams that might already be talking about an off-season deal, depending on what happens with Bryz over the course of the season.

I don't know if it's pre-planned, but I'd assume Gillis might be aware of their interest and that it'd be of the "not quite yet" variety. I don't see Detroit walking away from Howard, unless they feel they have a really solid option coming up in the next few years, but NYI and NJD both could be in the mix by June. Philly would immediately become #1 most likely if they find a way to deal with Bryz, but until that happens I don't know. There's a lot of wait and see since as you mentioned, Gillis has surprised in the past.


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c3c9e9.pnganimalhousesig.jpg

Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#1259 oldnews

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:54 PM

Just saying you shouldn't be surprised when people say you've been twisting things sideways.

I think you have some reasonable posts, some of which I agree with, some I don't. When you've been responding to King, and even with Smashian now, I've found you to be less about the debate and more about mocking people.

I am trying to at least speak to the Luongo discussion in other posts, in fact I've been replying to a couple of Bookie's posts and we've both made some good points about where Luongo could go. I haven't gotten the feeling you're really doing the same with your posts of late unless it's about beating the same argument you've been having with someone else on a certain point over the last few pages to death.

Just my opinion and I'm not here to tell you you're wrong, just point out how it's being perceived. Forgive me for trying to point it out, I'll not bother you again about it.


I'm not surprised at all by your perception elvis. Well played.

Here's a little analogy of how I perceive your self-appointed role here:

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#1260 Millerdraft

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:23 PM

That "small, extra" $1.1M amounts to a 31% increase in compensation.

In addition, Jason Garrison got 6 years, while Willie had 2. You're typically granted 1 of the 2 contractual elements of higher term, lower cap hit (Luongo), or lower term, higher cap hit (Semin, Mitchell). Garrison hit a walk-off HR on July 1st of this year. Not comparable contracts.


You're forgetting that most non-defective players (in WM's case, PCS, in Semin's case "unmotivated play") get 5-7 year deals in unrestricted free agency at big dollars. That's just how inflationary the UFA market is and how it all works. How many years did Tyutin, Hainsey, Komisarek, Volchenkov, Martin, Streit, Gilbert, Hamhuis, Wideman, Kronwall, Vlasic, Giordano, Meszaros, Gorges, Orpik, Michalek etc get? They all got 5 years+ at $4m or over (except Orpik who got $3.75m).


There were 297 defencemen that played in the NHL last year (link). There are roughly 210-240 defencemen in the NHL at any given moment (7-8 per team). There are 206 NHL defencemen with at least a $1m cap hit this year (link) and their combined salary is $609.238m for an average salary of $2.957m. The top sixty combined salaries of defencemen equals a total $299.891m, $5m average. The next sixty total combined salary is $183.758m, $3.06m average. So $4.5m is about what you'd expect to pay a 30-40pt two-way Dman.

I guess we'll have to re-visit this notion in year 3 or 4 and see where he's at by then. There's no doubt it was a calculated risk but I'm at least willing to see how it plays out for a few years before judging, unlike you and your immediate judgement that this is a gargantuan mistake. The sample size is just too small to make a far reaching definitive statement one way or the other at this point.
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.





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