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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 5.0


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#2761 theminister

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:49 PM

To be fair, I don't know that people saw this coming, and the play of Schroeder has alleviated a lot of pressure in our centre depth. Manny's faceoff numbers are irreplaceable, but Kesler coming back will help for sure. that said, we need some improvment from Henrik, Lapierre and Schroeder in their faceoffs if we don't want that to be an issue or be forced to use Kesler more for defensive zone draws.

I'm not entirely sold we have to get a top faceoff, 3rd line type center back in a Luongo deal just for the sake of it or at the expense of something else we might benefit more from.


I think it was pretty predictable that we couldn't rely on what we had. That's why we were talking about it so much. It could have happened in Game 1 of Round 1 too and it would be even worse. This is why a few of us are recommending depth acquisitions, goalie trade or not, and that a dependable two-way centre who is good in the dot is still needed as insurance.

Fair enough.... I'm not stuck on who or how we get someone but I have not been happy with our 4th line for 3 years. I'd be very disappointed if that wasn't addressed this year.

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#2762 smurf47

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:54 PM

No, I have said numerous times Luongo has made Schneider get better. And I have been saying that if and once Luongo is gone, Schneider won't have anyone to measure himself against, thereby slowing down as time goes on.

But cute...

....and you know all this how??? Has not Schneider made Lou better?

#2763 oldnews

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

I think it was pretty predictable that we couldn't rely on what we had. That's why we were talking about it so much. It could have happened in Game 1 of Round 1 too and it would be even worse. This is why a few of us are recommending depth acquisitions, goalie trade or not, and that a dependable two-way centre who is good in the dot is still needed as insurance.

Fair enough.... I'm not stuck on who or how we get someone but I have not been happy with our 4th line for 3 years. I'd be very disappointed if that wasn't addressed this year.


Couldn't agree more, and at this point, with Manny out for the season, I'd love to see a couple of players like Goc and Steckel added (I know it's not simply that easy to acquire centers, but those two seem reasonable depth targets who'd fit nicely imo) - which is not to say I don't have high regards for Schroeder and Lapierre, but I'd love to keep the option of Lappy on the wing to a strong faceoff guy like Steckel, and the same where Schroeder is concerned. If someone like Kesler were to suffer a re-injury, there's the potential to win without him, whereas as the Canucks stand now, another injury would force AV to use both Schroeder and Ebbett as half the Canucks roster up the middle (and really no one else near ready in the system) - who could be comfortable with that?

Edited by oldnews, 14 February 2013 - 03:07 PM.


#2764 oldnews

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:16 PM

lol typical cdcer just cant admit he is wrong, will twist what i said he said she said to make himself sound right..you are right. Yeah we dont need help up front, especially when our forwards are injured, and yea Gillis is not at ALL showcasing Lu. Happy?


Has Gillis cut a short term deal to react to injuries? I don't agree with you that that is a necessary or intelligent way to go about building your team. Gillis himself has said many times that neither he nor other GMs make decisions on that basis, going so far as to say the Reimer injury will not dictate what Nonis does. The Canucks certainly have far, far less "need" for help up front than the Leafs do between the pipes, and yet listen to his perspective on their situation.
Was Columbus 'showcasing' Nash before their deal, or did every GM in the NHL already know what they were getting with Nash, and Columbus was simply playing their marquis player as they normally would?

#2765 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:23 PM

Having scrapped with you earlier on other issues; this post is IMO the epitome of exactly where we stand right now at centre ice.

Knock on wood; Hank has also not been injured, in what 10 years?


Couldn't agree more, and at this point, with Manny out for the season, I'd love to see a couple of players like Goc and Steckel added (I know it's not simply that easy to acquire centers, but those two seem reasonable depth targets who'd fit nicely imo) - which is not to say I don't have high regards for Schroeder and Lapierre, but I'd love to keep the option of Lappy on the wing to a strong faceoff guy like Steckel, and the same where Schroeder is concerned. If someone like Kesler were to suffer a re-injury, there's the potential to win without him, whereas as the Canucks stand now, another injury would force AV to use both Schroeder and Ebbett as half the Canucks roster up the middle (and really no one else near ready in the system) - who could be comfortable with that?



#2766 oldnews

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:40 PM

Sociological question here - what motivates people to post spam commentary in the news thread?
Is there pleasure in this that the rest of us should know about?

#2767 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:47 PM

HONK HONK?


hahahhaah lol

make the trade by the deadline..

#2768 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:53 PM

In that top 5 > you have four left side D, 1 right side D, 1 right handed shot and NO puck rushing D. Ballard has a few go's at it, but it's not the same as having Pietrangelo, Letang, Yandle. Absolutely its great having accumulated all the talent we have on D; but if (perhaps with Lou, perhaps independently) we traded one of those left side D...

If we trade Ballard for Orlov you still have ridiculous wealth on the left side better right; (trade directly or indirectly)

Hamhuis/Bieksa
Edler/Tanev
Garrison/Orlov

Orlov is roughly a 210 lb right handed shot with substantially more upside and physical ability than Tanev. No he won't be as game ready or steady; so Tanev can take the Top 4 role but we can inject him if physical matches dictate and let him develop. So lets call the portion of a trade Orlov for Ballard = fair value as Ballard is going to contribute more now, Orlov has the potential and a lower cap hit.

Then we ask for MoJo / Forsberg for Lou. When they squawk (if its a big ask) settle for either a 2013 1st or a simpler Lou for Johansen and Orlov deal, perhaps a 2knd to close. This also is pretty close to fair value IMO.

Forsberg and Brouwer is a pretty good alternate also good value offer which could help us. I don't think they would go for it, cuz they need Brouwer, but its good value.

Getting back to the puck rushing D; How about

Lou / Ballard for Mike Green/Johansen and (again start with) asking for Forsberg and see if they give us enough to make the deal. This looks deadly;

Edler/Green
Hamhuis/Bieksa
Garrison/Tanev

Add to it Johansen for C depth and upside and a prospect / pick and our line up looks smashing.

Lots of ways to make a deal with Washington that help both clubs. And yes a right handed big D in Orlov makes perfect sense!



You want Orlov, a somewhat unproven, struggling and injured D-man when we have our top 4 locked up for 3+ years, and our number 5 locked in as Tanev, with Connoughton playing well with Tanev and potentially ready to make the jump to the NHL (along with Barker, Vandermeer, Alberts...) Value is wasted somwhere here, because Orlov wouldn't be top 4 on this team.

Hamrlik, a guy there's no way we'd re-sign, and literally has the turning radius of a freight train on rails that don't go where he needs to be. Least mobile defenseman this side of Chara. OK so we can put him as #6 now and then not have that value next year.

A first next year, which means another year removed from being NHL ready when this year is known to be a stacked draft year

A pick leaving us from when? this year? that'd be depressing

Brouwer with a RIDICULOUS contract. He's a guy who is what we have already... with Kassian, Kesler, Lapierre, Schroeder, Hansen, we're not short of right handed shots. He is a bowling ball with a wrist shot. We have physicality, and Hansen, Kassian, Lapierre, Schroeder, Higgins, Kesler, Raymond, both Sedins and Burrows all have more hockey sense than him. Booth would be the only comparable, but Booth is faster with more upside, and Brouwer isn't cheap enough to be worth the cap savings. Also, the wingers he'd be taking time from all have caps $1.5m-$2.7m lower than his.

Tom WIlson. A 200lb 6-4 prospet with D potential according to hockey's future - AKA a project. "What remains to be seen is whether the big winger can develop his offensive skills – it will be the difference between Wilson being a top 6 forward or a 4th-line energy player." Unlike Kassian (B potential), he DOESN'T naturally have the same hockey sense/offensive skillset. Maybe he ends up being another Brouwer... But he may end up just being a 4th liner. 12 goals in 77 OHL games is pretty bad, and thats JUNIOR hockey. Sure he gets lots of PIMS, but I think we've addressed our toughness enough.

And to get that AMAZING return, you want to give up a fast moving defense-man with chemistry and who has already adapted to our system, Higgins or Raymond(who are both better skaters than anything coming back), a pick presumably this year, and a gold medal SCF perrenial elite goalie(the best and most proven Goalie available now and in the foreseeable future).

So rather than ranting and raving like a middle school girlfriend, come to grips with the fact that is horrible return on our biggest trade-able asset

regards,
that's just silly you SILLY GOOSE


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 14 February 2013 - 04:56 PM.


#2769 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:04 PM

Has Gillis cut a short term deal to react to injuries? I don't agree with you that that is a necessary or intelligent way to go about building your team. Gillis himself has said many times that neither he nor other GMs make decisions on that basis, going so far as to say the Reimer injury will not dictate what Nonis does. The Canucks certainly have far, far less "need" for help up front than the Leafs do between the pipes, and yet listen to his perspective on their situation.
Was Columbus 'showcasing' Nash before their deal, or did every GM in the NHL already know what they were getting with Nash, and Columbus was simply playing their marquis player as they normally would?



What you are saying has nothing at all to do with what I was saying, for whatever reason you wanted to disagree, either because you misunderstood what i said or..

And honestly i dont care to change or explain to you what I was saying, no offense.

I was only replying to the people I quoted.

You are right we didnt need help scoring goals, just like right now, and yea even in the future when an important player gets injured Lu will score the goals for us. Thanks makes perfect sense.

#2770 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:07 PM

You want Orlov, a somewhat unproven, struggling and injured D-man when we have our top 4 locked up for 3+ years, and our number 5 locked in as Tanev, with Connoughton playing well with Tanev and potentially ready to make the jump to the NHL (along with Barker, Vandermeer, Alberts...) Value is wasted somwhere here, because Orlov wouldn't be top 4 on this team.

Hamrlik, a guy there's no way we'd re-sign, and literally has the turning radius of a freight train on rails that don't go where he needs to be. Least mobile defenseman this side of Chara. OK so we can put him as #6 now and then not have that value next year.

A first next year, which means another year removed from being NHL ready when this year is known to be a stacked draft year

A pick leaving us from when? this year? that'd be depressing

Brouwer with a RIDICULOUS contract. He's a guy who is what we have already... with Kassian, Kesler, Lapierre, Schroeder, Hansen, we're not short of right handed shots. He is a bowling ball with a wrist shot. We have physicality, and Hansen, Kassian, Lapierre, Schroeder, Higgins, Kesler, Raymond, both Sedins and Burrows all have more hockey sense than him. Booth would be the only comparable, but Booth is faster with more upside, and Brouwer isn't cheap enough to be worth the cap savings. Also, the wingers he'd be taking time from all have caps $1.5m-$2.7m lower than his.

Tom WIlson. A 200lb 6-4 prospet with D potential according to hockey's future - AKA a project. "What remains to be seen is whether the big winger can develop his offensive skills – it will be the difference between Wilson being a top 6 forward or a 4th-line energy player." Unlike Kassian (B potential), he DOESN'T naturally have the same hockey sense/offensive skillset. Maybe he ends up being another Brouwer... But he may end up just being a 4th liner. 12 goals in 77 OHL games is pretty bad, and thats JUNIOR hockey. Sure he gets lots of PIMS, but I think we've addressed our toughness enough.

And to get that AMAZING return, you want to give up a fast moving defense-man with chemistry and who has already adapted to our system, Higgins or Raymond(who are both better skaters than anything coming back), a pick presumably this year, and a gold medal SCF perrenial elite goalie(the best and most proven Goalie available now and in the foreseeable future).

So rather than ranting and raving like a middle school girlfriend, come to grips with the fact that is horrible return on our biggest trade-able asset

regards,
that's just silly you SILLY GOOSE


I agree we don't need Brouwer. But you are off the mark on Orlov/Hamrlik.

Orlov is a MAJOR upgrade on Connaution and it's not even close. Connaution has struggled big time this season, I still have hope but I am no to comfortable honestly with him being penciled in.

Orlov would be a better guy for that role alongside Tanev.

And Hamrlik is the last thing we need, Hamrlik would only be beneficial this year, and he has no place on this team. Terrible idea.

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#2771 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

Biggest improvement I see in him is his hockey sense and passing. Last year he would skate as fast as he could and make a sick move around a guy and then instead of dishing the puck out to kes or booth, he would try to beat another defender and lose the puck or awkwardly give it to our defenseman.

I think part of the problem last year was all 3 guys were coming back from injury so instead of finding line chemistry, they were all trying to get their own games going. Starting the year healthy with Schroeder has really helped him.

He does have more confidence and ability to battle this year, but I disagree with you regarding the nature of his game.
This is the same Raymond.
He is still playing primarily a perimeter style game - it's what he does well - and I have no problem with that. I've yet to see much of Raymond driving the net as you claim. Raymond still drives teams deeper than they want to be, but he primarily spins off to the perimeter/corner - this is still my most prominent image of Raymond. The difference is that he has the strength to make those stops and turns, as he used to, without falling. What makes him so much more effective now imo is that once he creates that space for himself to the outside by driving, going wide and stopping/pivoting, he is still strong on his feet - and very adept at finding open trailers or blueliners who have a whole lot of space as a result of the collapsing that his speed generates. I don't think Raymond does much driving into the dirty areas - he may mix that in once in a while to change things up, but that's not his thing - he's an open spaces kind of player for a reason - his perimeter game is actually quite effective when he is able to execute it as he is. Raymond's speed is not just effective on the rush - he uses it by going primarily to open areas, which tend to be the perimeter, not the dirty areas, but he's very effective because he attracts a lot of attention, makes people lose their coverage by dividing their attention (half way between switching off), makes people look like they are relatively standing still, and it creates a lot of space for team-mates, albeit in the opposite way that a power forward does.
There's still a difficulty with where he fits when the roster is complete/healthy - but I've never been anxious to move Raymond - he does a lot of things well and was far too maligned - I like seein him play with a guy like Hansen who has that combination of grit/board play as well as the open ice game, speed, sense and skill to mesh well with Raymond. Schroeder playing between the two is a helluva two way threat line.
It also would give the Canucks the depth to use a guy like Higgins with Manny/Lapierre on the fourth line - again, a hell of an advantage imo to have that kind of two way solid matchup ability that deep in the lineup, and bottom six lines that can take the minutes, with a lot less tax on Kesler to play a dual score and shutdown role.


Yeah, Raymond finally playing the way he can adds another important element to the top 9.

He has found his spot on that 3rd line with Schroeder and Hansen, as long as he keeps playing that way, he will and should continue on as an important piece of our forward group.

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#2772 Merci

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:24 PM

Brouwer with his 7th

Luongo
Raymond


Brouwer
Nuervith
Orlov

Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

vPTJpcO.jpg


#2773 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:27 PM

Brouwer with his 7th

Luongo
Raymond


Brouwer
Nuervith
Orlov


Terrible

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#2774 Italia2006

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

I'd like to know if the Canucks have any scouts at the Lightning vs Caps game? You would have to think Yzerman is feeling some sort of pressure.

Edited by Italia2006, 14 February 2013 - 07:04 PM.


#2775 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:18 PM

Having scrapped with you earlier on other issues; this post is IMO the epitome of exactly where we stand right now at centre ice.

Knock on wood; Hank has also not been injured, in what 10 years?


Actually Hank has had some tough injuries but he has played through them, its just not well known :)

Edited by iluvbc, 14 February 2013 - 08:21 PM.


#2776 canucksnihilist

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:51 PM

I don't know... I'd be happy with a star player coming back, who can pot some goals. Or a bunch of really good prospects who could be better than a lot of our established players.

I'm not sold on getting a 3rd line center... I don't think we are desperate for any particular piece right now (with Schroeder showing he can play, and Kassian: both injecting youth into the lineup).

A star sniper of some sort, or fill the prospect pool with legitimate star prospects. For the SC this year, it would be a star sniper, but I get the feeling it isn't going to happen. I think we can win without making a deal this season...

#2777 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:04 PM

I don't know... I'd be happy with a star player coming back, who can pot some goals. Or a bunch of really good prospects who could be better than a lot of our established players.

I'm not sold on getting a 3rd line center... I don't think we are desperate for any particular piece right now (with Schroeder showing he can play, and Kassian: both injecting youth into the lineup).

A star sniper of some sort, or fill the prospect pool with legitimate star prospects. For the SC this year, it would be a star sniper, but I get the feeling it isn't going to happen. I think we can win without making a deal this season...


like your insight.

#2778 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:06 PM

I agree with you 2.

Edit: Although we do need a LH bottom 6 center that can take important draws now that Manny is gone.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 14 February 2013 - 09:07 PM.

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#2779 Gollumpus

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:12 PM

I agree we don't need Brouwer. But you are off the mark on Orlov/Hamrlik.

Orlov is a MAJOR upgrade on Connaution and it's not even close. Connaution has struggled big time this season, I still have hope but I am no to comfortable honestly with him being penciled in.

Orlov would be a better guy for that role alongside Tanev.

And Hamrlik is the last thing we need, Hamrlik would only be beneficial this year, and he has no place on this team. Terrible idea.


If not Brouwer, then who? I don't see what's wrong with him. He's big. He plays a very physical style which will help Schroeder. He skates well. He's fairly solid on defense and has offensive upside. He does have a larger cap hit than either Raymond or Higgins, but with the cap leaving the team in my proposal he could be fit in rather nicely.

Granted, with the Malhotra situation being as it now is, it has re-focused attention on the center position.

And Hamrlik is a cap/salary/contract dump. I believe Washington would want a bit of relief in return for the amount they are taking on. He would be gone at the end of the season when his contract was done.


regards,
G.
Following the Canucks since before Don Cherry played here.

#2780 canuckfan85

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:23 PM

another laugher by holtby- aside from one nice glove save, he like a solid AHL goalie- could not track the puck , a step behind the play most of the night.

all 3 goals were laughers, he had no clue what he was doing.

1.I am baffled that McPhee thinks that his core group is ok with tis kind of goaltending.
2. Why do they even bother playing Holtby so much?? Neuvirth isnt great but he sucks far less
3.I reccomend at least watching the highlights- some of the goals these guys manage to let in a HILARIOUS- honestly-it is a real treat as you do not get to see such poor goaltending at this level.

Amazing

#2781 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:42 PM

?
"That's rich 101. You've been saying all along that Schneider has made Luongo better, and that we should stop playing the two off of each other. OK."



Something tells me you're having technical difficulties...


Yes. Take Luongo out of the equation, lose Schneider's competitiveness; lose an edge.

Conversely, lose Schneider, it won't make a dent in Luongo's play.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 14 February 2013 - 10:46 PM.


#2782 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

Brouwer with his 7th

Luongo
Raymond


Brouwer
Nuervith
Orlov


Schneider
Raymond


Brouwer
Nuervith
Orlov

#2783 Teemu Selšnne

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:59 PM

More imaginative observers link the Blues with Vancouver Canucks netminder Roberto Luongo.

St. Louis has the cap space to absorb Luongo’s contract and a depth in young talent to interest the Canucks, plus Halak ($3.75 million) and Elliott ($1.8 million) have only a year remaining on their contracts.

Such a move, however, depends on Armstrong's level of desperation, Luongo's willingness to go to St. Louis, and whether or not Blues ownership wants to invest in a 33-year-old goalie with an average annual salary of $5.33 million over the next 10 years.


- Lyle Richardson, THN's Rumour Roundup

#2784 Teemu Selšnne

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:02 PM

Patrick Berglund k thx.

#2785 Pears

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:10 PM

- Lyle Richardson, THN's Rumour Roundup

Interesting. Luongo and a pick for Oshie, Elliot, and maybe a prospect? A Luongo-Halak tandem sounds scary

In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2786 RockNroLLa.

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:20 PM

another laugher by holtby- aside from one nice glove save, he like a solid AHL goalie- could not track the puck , a step behind the play most of the night.

all 3 goals were laughers, he had no clue what he was doing.

1.I am baffled that McPhee thinks that his core group is ok with tis kind of goaltending.
2. Why do they even bother playing Holtby so much?? Neuvirth isnt great but he sucks far less
3.I reccomend at least watching the highlights- some of the goals these guys manage to let in a HILARIOUS- honestly-it is a real treat as you do not get to see such poor goaltending at this level.

Amazing


It would have been real cool if you were the Caps beat writer, probably would have knocked some sense into Mcpee by now..with the blunt truth.

#2787 smurf47

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

Yes. Take Luongo out of the equation, lose Schneider's competitiveness; lose an edge.

Conversely, lose Schneider, it won't make a dent in Luongo's play.

nothing short of painful !!!

#2788 elvis15

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:55 PM

- Lyle Richardson, THN's Rumour Roundup

So in other words, the same level of interest as all the other teams talked about since someone will have to make a decision it will be worthwhile enough move to give up what Gillis is asking for. It isn't completely news that a team with one injured goalie and another who can't hold the starter job in his absence would at least be looking, but the start of the quote makes it sound like they're calling morning, noon and night.

c3c9e9.pnganimalhousesig.jpg

If this team lets go of Sang he will burn this team next year. 

 


#2789 Pears

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:59 PM

Schneider
Raymond


Brouwer
Nuervith
Orlov

Can you actually stop?

In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs


   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#2790 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:02 AM

OK :towel:

Is it too much to ask for Tarasenko if we chip in Raymond...


But seriously; I don't see why St Louis would not be re-signing Halak or Elliot before they gave up assets for a signed guy. They can also play them till their contracts expire, and acquire someone like Bryzgalov for a similar cap hit. Completely irrelevant, everyone thought Bryzzy was funnier than Lou until just recently!

:wacko:

All that said Berglund is otherwise fair value for Lou; but it's all pretty far fetched?

Fun conversation though!

Patrick Berglund k thx.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 15 February 2013 - 11:52 AM.





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