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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 5.0


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#2881 higgyfan

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:40 AM

Schneider Schroeder for Gudbranson and huberdeau


Funny how those guys were 'untouchable' in all the Luongo trade suggestions, but suddenly Schneids can get them.

Schneid's value is higher because of his age and contract. The very reason MG wants to trade Luongo and hasn't been able to pull the plug. Yeah, yeah, people around here are saying that Lu's contract is a goodie. I don't see it myself. If it was a regular contract, he would be playing for another team by now.

The way things are going, MG might as well hang onto both goalies and weather the storm(unless an incredible offer comes along). If he doesn't effectively resolve this problem in the offseason, Lu's contract will look even worse.
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#2882 LOL_dre

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

The Canucks scored 8 goals in 7 games against the bruins.. are we still all forgetting that series?

Also we couldn't score at a high enough rate against the kings last year.

Our problem is scoring !!!!!

When we play another physical team like boston, or L.A the sedins will be shut down once again and then we'll have to count on our secondary scoring.

Gillis needs to get a top 9 forward in exchange for luongo


I don't think scoring is as big of an issue for us as you think remember that during the Boston Series we were missing Raymond and Samuelsson which was 2/3rds of our second line and since then Gillis has brought in Booth and Kassian giving us more offense and pushing Raymond out of the top 6.

The Kings series last year we were missing Daniel for the start and we played better once he came back but I don't think anybody was going to stop the kings last year.

We don't really have room for an other top 9 forward except maybe an upgrade at the 3C cause we will have top 9 guys on our 4th line once Booth is back
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#2883 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

Funny how those guys were 'untouchable' in all the Luongo trade suggestions, but suddenly Schneids can get them.

Personally, I think they're still untouchable, no matter what we offer.

If we can't pry Bjugstad and Petrovic out of Florida, those two are a pipe dream. However, I haven't given up on Tallon yet. The question is, how badly does he want to be in the playoffs?
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#2884 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

Forgot what I was going to say :blush:

edit: O yeah, Carlson, Orlov, Green all help us more than Alzner. Right handed shots; Karlson and Green who can skate the puck up ice.


We don't need any of them right now though, aside from Orlov. Cause we won't be able to afford them and we already have 6 solid D-men.
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#2885 Noseforthenet

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

We don't need any of them right now though, aside from Orlov. Cause we won't be able to afford them and we already have 6 solid D-men.

How exactly do you know that? Do you know who will be involved in the goalie trade? What if it's one of our goalies, Ballard and Tanev in the trade? Take one look at the Caps board and they all say the same thing: they need their defensemen to be more physical and their few bright spots are Carlson, Alzner, and Mike Green. Their backend chemistry sucks so bad right now, it ain't even funny! If we theoretically sent them a D pairing with good chemistry that plays the body and moves the puck well, we could probably get Carlson or Green included in the package we get back. It also solves the salary problem.
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#2886 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:51 PM

How exactly do you know that? Do you know who will be involved in the goalie trade? What if it's one of our goalies, Ballard and Tanev in the trade? Take one look at the Caps board and they all say the same thing: they need their defensemen to be more physical and their few bright spots are Carlson, Alzner, and Mike Green. Their backend chemistry sucks so bad right now, it ain't even funny! If we theoretically sent them a D pairing with good chemistry that plays the body and moves the puck well, we could probably get Carlson or Green included in the package we get back. It also solves the salary problem.



We don't need any of them right now though, aside from Orlov. Cause we won't be able to afford them and we already have 6 solid D-men.


We don't need any right now.

If one of our top 6 were in the trade then we would, but I wouldn't put Ballard and or Tanev in it.

How about.

Luongo, Bieksa, Connaution, 3rd for Carlson, Orlov, Johansson, 1st
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#2887 bobopan

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:53 PM

I don't think scoring is as big of an issue for us as you think remember that during the Boston Series we were missing Raymond and Samuelsson which was 2/3rds of our second line and since then Gillis has brought in Booth and Kassian giving us more offense and pushing Raymond out of the top 6.

The Kings series last year we were missing Daniel for the start and we played better once he came back but I don't think anybody was going to stop the kings last year.

We don't really have room for an other top 9 forward except maybe an upgrade at the 3C cause we will have top 9 guys on our 4th line once Booth is back


Raymond missed only the final game if im not mistaken and he scored a grand total of 2 goals that entire cup run, 1 of which being an empty netter. Without a doubt in my mind i think this team could use another bonifide top six guy. Im not at all convinced Booth is gonna get it done for us, how much offense were gonna get from Kassian remains to be seen. There's a reason why Gillis went after Doan.. I don't think he's all that content with our top six.

Edited by bobopan, 17 February 2013 - 05:54 PM.

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#2888 oldnews

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

We don't need any right now.

If one of our top 6 were in the trade then we would, but I wouldn't put Ballard and or Tanev in it.

How about.

Luongo, Bieksa, Connaution, 3rd for Carlson, Orlov, Johansson, 1st


Did you hear these guys are available?

Has McPhee changed his mind? - or is he still already in too deep with 22 million committed to Ov, Backstrom (until the 2020s) and Green?

Edited by oldnews, 17 February 2013 - 06:10 PM.

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#2889 Noseforthenet

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

We don't need any right now.

If one of our top 6 were in the trade then we would, but I wouldn't put Ballard and or Tanev in it.

How about.

Luongo, Bieksa, Connaution, 3rd for Carlson, Orlov, Johansson, 1st

dude, that trade is so sideways, it's not even funny.
I am of the opinion though that if a Lu trade goes down this season, it would have to be a situation where they pretty well only need a goalie and that's it. But for conversation's sake I will throw one back at ya:

Lu, Ballard, Tanev for Carlson, Neuvirth, Chimera, and Brouwer. Hockey trade. Salary is similar going thru both sides. And both teams get good depth in the areas they need.
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#2890 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:17 PM

Did you hear these guys are available?

Has McPhee changed his mind? - or is he still already in too deep with 22 million committed to Ov, Backstrom (until the 2020s) and Green?


No, I doubt they are, just spit ballin.

Way to try to take a shot at me out of nowhere though, really adds a great deal to the conversation. Great job.

dude, that trade is so sideways, it's not even funny.
I am of the opinion though that if a Lu trade goes down this season, it would have to be a situation where they pretty well only need a goalie and that's it. But for conversation's sake I will throw one back at ya:

Lu, Ballard, Tanev for Carlson, Neuvirth, Chimera, and Brouwer. Hockey trade. Salary is similar going thru both sides. And both teams get good depth in the areas they need.


Yeah your right.

Although we lose your deal. And it's not really a hockey trade that helps. As we have a hole on defense and too many top 9 forwards.

I'll take another stab at it:

Luongo, Bieksa, Higgins: That's about 11.7

for

Carlson, Brouwer, Poti, Johansson: That's about 11.335

Could add a tad more to our side, but Johansson's value is at an alltime low and Poti has negitave value more than anything.

Of course this is all hypothetical & just for fun, as Carlson would never be moved in a deal like these.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 17 February 2013 - 06:17 PM.

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#2891 oldnews

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

No, I doubt they are, just spit ballin.

Way to try to take a shot at me out of nowhere though, really adds a great deal to the conversation. Great job.


Are you kidding? Those are legitimate questions, particularly given your penchant for telling us who is and isn't available, and who is and is not interested in Luongo - not to mention that you skate around these boards hitting every proposal that moves Smashian - don't play victim here. McPhee pretty clearly said he can't afford the contract - has he changed his mind? According to you Alzner isn't available, but here you are including Carlson in proposals?

Edited by oldnews, 17 February 2013 - 06:37 PM.

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#2892 oldnews

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:39 PM

How exactly do you know that? Do you know who will be involved in the goalie trade? What if it's one of our goalies, Ballard and Tanev in the trade? Take one look at the Caps board and they all say the same thing: they need their defensemen to be more physical and their few bright spots are Carlson, Alzner, and Mike Green. Their backend chemistry sucks so bad right now, it ain't even funny! If we theoretically sent them a D pairing with good chemistry that plays the body and moves the puck well, we could probably get Carlson or Green included in the package we get back. It also solves the salary problem.


It's just what Smashian does - he's appointed himself the 'shutdown' guy where proposals are concerned.
Apparently he believes his approach "really adds a great deal to the conversation".

Edited by oldnews, 17 February 2013 - 06:43 PM.

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#2893 Noseforthenet

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:41 PM

Are you kidding? Those are legitimate questions, particularly given your penchant for telling us who is and isn't available, and who is and is not interested in Luongo - not to mention that you skate around these boards hitting every proposal that moves Smashian - don't play victim here. McPhee pretty clearly said he can't afford the contract - has he changed his mind? According to you Alzner isn't available, but here you are including Carlson in proposals?

That was my fault. But I believe Carlson can be had. We just have to focus on their greatest need. No way Lu goes to Washington this season. No way!
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#2894 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:42 PM

Are you kidding? Those are legitimate questions, particularly given your penchant for telling us who is and isn't available, and who is and is not interested in Luongo - not to mention that you skate around these boards hitting every proposal that moves Smashian - don't play victim here. McPhee pretty clearly said he can't afford the contract - has he changed his mind? According to you Alzner isn't available, but here you are including Carlson in proposals?


Just spit ballin, not really a serious proposal but alright.

And yeah I come around the boards with some realism since it seems most the board has no idea how valuable alot of players are to alot of teams.

And no I doubt WSH is seriously interested like TOR was, but it is a nice thought around here to think that they are isn't it?

It's just what Smashian does - he's appointed himself the 'shutdown' guy where proposals are concerned.


The realistic guy*

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 17 February 2013 - 06:42 PM.

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#2895 oldnews

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:46 PM

That was my fault. But I believe Carlson can be had. We just have to focus on their greatest need. No way Lu goes to Washington this season. No way!


I don't see it as a "fault" - I'm not trying to suggest that Carlson isn't available - with players like Luongo and top 6 blueliners involved in a deal from our end, I don't think there are many players too good for a return like that.
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#2896 Noseforthenet

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:47 PM

These proposals I have tossed back and forth with Smash were just hypotheticals. If we wanna talk about real possibilities of teams that Lu could maybe be traded to this season, the possibilities are as follows: Tampa. That's pretty much it. Only team in the east that only needs a goalie. They get a quality goalie and they are sprinting towards the cup! Other than that, there is no way he waves to go anywhere else until the off season.
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#2897 oldnews

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:48 PM

I'll take another stab at it:

Luongo, Bieksa, Higgins: That's about 11.7

for

Carlson, Brouwer, Poti, Johansson: That's about 11.335


Is this your idea of 'realism'?
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#2898 theminister

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:49 PM

It's not realism when you speak for GMs of other organizations.

I've called you on this before Smashian, and I don't know if you are doing it on purpose or not, but when you fail to qualify your opinions (which are frankly no better than anyone else's) which words like 'unlikely', 'probably' or 'improbable' then you come across as arrogant and rude.

All you wind up doing is shutting down other people without conversing with them. It's annoying and counterproductive to what, I believe, you are trying to accomplish.
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#2899 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:55 PM

Is this your idea of 'realism'?


I don't see what wrong with it, value and cap are both close.

Lets end the pissing match.

It's not realism when you speak for GMs of other organizations.

I've called you on this before Smashian, and I don't know if you are doing it on purpose or not, but when you fail to qualify your opinions (which are frankly no better than anyone else's) which words like 'unlikely', 'probably' or 'improbable' then you come across as arrogant and rude.

All you wind up doing is shutting down other people without conversing with them. It's annoying and counterproductive to what, I believe, you are trying to accomplish.


I do qualify my opinions. If you felt I haven't on something just ask me about it and I will tell you why.

I think identifying why things work and don't work for other teams is better than just proposing whatever works best for us, forgetting the other teams have needs and concerns aswell. Basically just putting on the blinders to the other side when making proposals.

I apologize if I come across this way, I usually elaborate as to why I feel others won't accept, but if you feel that I haven't been, then just ask why I feel that way.

And I realize my opinion isn't better than anyone elses, but it is nice to add a little bit of perspective from the other side when making proposals, and I do my best to stay up to date with other teams and what is going on so I try to add that.

I know my opinion isn't the be all and end all and I'm sorry you feel this way, just tell me what I haven't elaborated on.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 17 February 2013 - 06:56 PM.

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#2900 theminister

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:00 PM

Try instead of 'so-and-so isn't available', because you don't know for a fact, try 'I can't see so-and-so being available.'
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#2901 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:05 PM

Try instead of 'so-and-so isn't available', because you don't know for a fact, try 'I can't see so-and-so being available.'


I usually do. I say:

I doubt they would do that. See:

And no I doubt WSH is seriously interested like TOR was.


I'll do that more then if you feel I don't do it enough.

Oh and I think you are winning our bet on Lazar so far. :P

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 17 February 2013 - 07:06 PM.

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#2902 Noseforthenet

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

I think it's time for 6.0. This thread is getting sllllllloooooooowwwwwww. . . . Templeton, where are you?
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#2903 tonimator#19

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:04 PM

Our defence clearly needs a shakeup.
We have too many left handed defensemen and that is ending up in edler and hamhuis looking like lost puppies on the ice.

Edler is way too flat footed and has problems pivoting. Also he does not move the puck quick enough on the powerplay.
But he does have a great resume.


To Vancouver:

- John Carlson - Big playmaking right handed defensemen. Doesn't have the resume but has potential to be elite
- Evgeny Kuznetsov- Size and gamebreaking ability. The russian factor may allow him to be traded easier
- 1st rounder
- cap dump that we bury in the minors

To Washington:

- Luongo - Much needed leadership for their lockerroom and experience. Playing his best hockey in years
- Edler - Top 2 dman capable of 50 points. Brings experience and a more developed skillset.


Lineup:

sedin sedin burrows
higgins kesler kassian
booth schroeder hansen
volpatti lappy weise

raymond

garrison bieksa
hamhuis carlson - Hamhuis can be the stay at home D and Carlson can rush the puck with his speed/skill
ballard tanev


future top 6:

sedin sedin burrows
kuznetsov kesler kassian

or

sedin sedin kassian
burrows kesler kuznetsov(natural rw)

or

kuznetsov sedin kassian - Kuznetsov will add tempo/speed to an aging H.Sedin
sedin kesler burrows - Kes and Burr reunited

=O !

Edited by tonimator#19, 17 February 2013 - 11:26 PM.

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#2904 Merci

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

Luongo
Raymond
Schroeder

Brouwer
Laich
Holtby


Sedin Sedin Burrows
Booth Kesler Kassian
Higgins Laich Brouwer
Volpatti Lapierre Hansen

Ppl who will and can fight:

Booth
Kassian
Laich
Brouwer
Volpatti
Lapierre

Edited by Merci, 17 February 2013 - 11:45 PM.

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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#2905 oldnews

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:47 PM

I think it's time for 6.0. This thread is getting sllllllloooooooowwwwwww. . . . Templeton, where are you?


yep
a number of threads ago we were predicting what page we'd be on when Luongo is dealt...
now we're wondering which version - 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, 9.0...?
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#2906 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:18 AM

I think it's time for 6.0. This thread is getting sllllllloooooooowwwwwww. . . . Templeton, where are you?


At this rate I wouldn't be surprised to see us reach 9.0 or 10.0 :lol:

To Vancouver:

- John Carlson - Big playmaking right handed defensemen. Doesn't have the resume but has potential to be elite
- Evgeny Kuznetsov- Size and gamebreaking ability. The russian factor may allow him to be traded easier
- 1st rounder
- cap dump that we bury in the minors

To Washington:

- Luongo - Much needed leadership for their lockerroom and experience. Playing his best hockey in years
- Edler - Top 2 dman capable of 50 points. Brings experience and a more developed skillset.


Hmmm... I think this is close valuewise.

But I think the cap dump would have to be something significant. Becaus Edler > Carlson, and Luongo is probably equal to or better than Kuznetsov. The cap dump then has negative value. The 1st doesn't compensate for all that IMO.

But the value is sort of close. I'm not keen on moving Edler myself, as I think he will be better than Carlson once he gains more consistency, but something along these lines is something I would really consider.

Luongo
Raymond
Schroeder

Brouwer
Laich
Holtby


Overpayment from our side, and it doesn't make sense for us, Laich and Brouwer have terrible contracts that would handcuff us big time when the cap drops. And Raymond and Schroeder are playing great.

And even putting all that aside, value greatly favors Washington.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 18 February 2013 - 12:20 AM.

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#2907 Merci

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:45 AM

Overpayment from our side, and it doesn't make sense for us, Laich and Brouwer have terrible contracts that would handcuff us big time when the cap drops. And Raymond and Schroeder are playing great.

And even putting all that aside, value greatly favors Washington.


Laich and Brouwer may get payed a lot but they will play far better than both Schroeder and Ramyond combined, despite Raymond scoring an awesome goal today St Louis' size showed how useless Raymond and Schroeder will be against size, a main factor in the playoffs.

I know you have a boner for Schroeder but we have to upgrade our size, and experience. Laich and Brouwer from Washington make the most sense in a Loungo trade.

Schroeder and Raymond are both very valuable, we do overpay in the long run but we aren't going to get a Carlson for Luongo. Not when Gillis is forced to trade Luongo, how will our cap situation work with both goalies? We aren't getting a AAA prospect for a 33 year old goalie that has proven to melt in the playoffs.

What does make sense is trading Luongo a Mason Raymond that is playing well, and Schroeder who has no place the same as Hodgson. for

A bonified 3rd veteran line better than any combination of Higgins Malhotra Torres 3rd line of yesteryear.

Higgins Laich Brouwer

If you have seen either of the mentioned players play you would accept the on paper loss of the trade and accepts it puts us in the most realistic position to win the cup within 3 years.



You're a mad man to take Schroeder in to the playoffs as our 3C
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#2908 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:13 AM

Laich and Brouwer may get payed a lot but they will play far better than both Schroeder and Ramyond combined, despite Raymond scoring an awesome goal today St Louis' size showed how useless Raymond and Schroeder will be against size, a main factor in the playoffs.

I know you have a boner for Schroeder but we have to upgrade our size, and experience. Laich and Brouwer from Washington make the most sense in a Loungo trade.

Schroeder and Raymond are both very valuable, we do overpay in the long run but we aren't going to get a Carlson for Luongo. Not when Gillis is forced to trade Luongo, how will our cap situation work with both goalies? We aren't getting a AAA prospect for a 33 year old goalie that has proven to melt in the playoffs.

What does make sense is trading Luongo a Mason Raymond that is playing well, and Schroeder who has no place the same as Hodgson. for

A bonified 3rd veteran line better than any combination of Higgins Malhotra Torres 3rd line of yesteryear.

Higgins Laich Brouwer

If you have seen either of the mentioned players play you would accept the on paper loss of the trade and accepts it puts us in the most realistic position to win the cup within 3 years.

You're a mad man to take Schroeder in to the playoffs as our 3C


Really, cause I thought Raymond and Schroeder's speed was a huge factor, I thought Raymond especially was going to the dirty areas and using his speed to win battles.

I agree, we aren't getting Carlson for Luongo (Nor do we need him) and we aren't getting Forsberg or Kuznetsov either.

Hodgson actually had a place, and in hindsight he may have helped us, as our lack of scoring is what seemingly cost us, and that has seemed to be our downfall in recent years, Hodgson had a place with us, he just chose not to take it. The deal was made solely on him wanting out, nothing more.

And actually that is where you are wrong (2nd to last bolded part) This takes away our chances. As we will be hogtied, all our depth will be gone. With Laich and Brouwer in our linup we would then have only 1 million in cap space to sign everyone. That means we would have 15 players under contract, not even a full lineup and only 1 Million left in cap space.

And what do you think happens in the playoffs? Do the big guys suddenly grow claws, or do they throw hammers or do they get jet packs so they can fly around the arena and crush everyone with speed.

I understand playoffs are more physical, but the game is still the same, it isn't wrestling, its still hockey. If players that aren't 210 and aren't loaded with grit aren't useful in the playoffs, then why would half the players in the league be in the league? It would be the 70's again.

Speed is an important key too, I get wanting to get more physical but you can only be physical at certain points in the game, that doesn't change. You cant run around and hit people, having speed does have its advantages as long as those guys are strong enough and aren't afraid to go to the dirty areas and JS and Raymond have proven they aren't.
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#2909 Merci

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:20 AM

Really, cause I thought Raymond and Schroeder's speed was a huge factor, I thought Raymond especially was going to the dirty areas and using his speed to win battles.

I agree, we aren't getting Carlson for Luongo (Nor do we need him) and we aren't getting Forsberg or Kuznetsov either.

Hodgson actually had a place, and in hindsight he may have helped us, as our lack of scoring is what seemingly cost us, and that has seemed to be our downfall in recent years, Hodgson had a place with us, he just chose not to take it. The deal was made solely on him wanting out, nothing more.

And actually that is where you are wrong (2nd to last bolded part) This takes away our chances. As we will be hogtied, all our depth will be gone. With Laich and Brouwer in our linup we would then have only 1 million in cap space to sign everyone. That means we would have 15 players under contract, not even a full lineup and only 1 Million left in cap space.

And what do you think happens in the playoffs? Do the big guys suddenly grow claws, or do they throw hammers or do they get jet packs so they can fly around the arena and crush everyone with speed.

I understand playoffs are more physical, but the game is still the same, it isn't wrestling, its still hockey. If players that aren't 210 and aren't loaded with grit aren't useful in the playoffs, then why would half the players in the league be in the league? It would be the 70's again.

Speed is an important key too, I get wanting to get more physical but you can only be physical at certain points in the game, that doesn't change. You cant run around and hit people, having speed does have its advantages as long as those guys are strong enough and aren't afraid to go to the dirty areas and JS and Raymond have proven they aren't.


Raymond was a minus 2 tonight with no hits and no blocked shots.

He is the definition of a non 3rd liner.

His speed may create opportunities, but it is what caused too unstoppable goals to Luongo as well.
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#2910 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:33 AM

Raymond was a minus 2 tonight with no hits and no blocked shots.

He is the definition of a non 3rd liner.

His speed may create opportunities, but it is what caused too unstoppable goals to Luongo as well.


He has 6 points in his last 6 games. He's 1st in Goals for the team and 4th in points.

And if you watched the goals tonight, you will see they are hardly his fault at all.
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