nuck luck Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If this were soccer I would agree that AV should carry the can but the Canuck line up is devised primarily by a tandem........more if you include assistants and scouts..........but in the main the team is supplied by MG and coached by AV Well how has MG helped AV recently? (since the SC) He has traded Hodgson (and let's not forget Sultzer, someone who never got a real chance) for Kassian and someone (Gragnani) AV/MG threw away after spending the "pre playoff games" messing up the defence trying him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 People do these evaluation threads to death (how many have there been since the weekend already?) but here are some points in reply: - Hodgson wanted icetime we couldn't give him so we got a different asset in return. No better, no worse. Sulzer was a decent depth guy and never complained about his limited playing time (unlike Hodgson/Hodgson's agent/Hodgson's father), but he was behind Hamhuis, Edler and Ballard on the depth chart. He offered us a different look than Alberts as a replacement but was tried on the right side when we had opportunity but never worked out. Gragnani was a little different in that he really wasn't fitting in a number of situations and made some really bad reads. His offence probably would have come but Gillis felt it was better to allow for the opportunity for someone like Connauton to fill that role. - Pahlsson has the credentials to be a good 3rd line center, but it didn't work out. In the end we gave up next to nothing to get him so we suck it up and move on. - Rome was let go in favour of other defencemen even though he was steady for a depth guy, but Salo wasn't let go. Salo was offered a contract, which he declined in favour of more money and term in Tampa. The Wolves need players too, so I'm not sure why Mullen and Joslin should have any bearing on what we do. I don't think Barker will work out in our favour, but he's cheap and Vandermeer does give us an even tougher option in our depth while still being reasonably reliable (and, again cheaper than Rome). - Garrison was not awarded the kingdom and Garrison's proof that he has what it takes is in his defensive ability. He was a top shutdown guy for Florida for two seasons and was ranked behind only Hamhuis as the best shutdown defenceman two years ago. We paid a little extra in hopes he'd contribute offensively like he did last year, but others would have paid more and we signed him for less than market value. You said it yourself, it's still early in the season. - Sturm didn't work out and Gillis recognized that and dumped him. It was a mistake to sign him. Samuelsson had been good for us, but injuries were becoming a problem and we needed a better option in our top 6. He managed to move both for a young, fast, power forward style player - much better value than he gave away even if the contract is larger. We still haven't seen the best of Booth after a knee injury that wasn't his fault and some bad luck with the groin injury (which plenty of players are having issues with, it's even kept Samuelsson out of games this year). And if Aquilini cared about how much Reinprecht cost, he wouldn't have signed off on the deal. I'm definitely seeing a trend, but it's actually for mediocre threads in a forum filled with other mediocre threads all about the same topic. Unfortunately you've cherry picked things you think support your argument when they actually don't (at least not as much as you think) and have chosen to ignore indisputably good pickups, like Hamhuis, Higgins, Lapierre and even Malhotra (whose effectiveness was limited by a freak injury through no fault to Gillis). He's also re-signed players brought in by other GMs to affordable deals and helped put in the extra pieces that make this team more competitive than it ever has been. If you can't see that, then I wonder about your comment about having hope for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono2009 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Care to ellaborate on this a little more? "So you see AV has had f---all help and arguably hinderance from big Mike since dragging his battered and battle weary squad to game 7 in 2011" I don't agree with that whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm definitely seeing a trend, but it's actually for mediocre threads in a forum filled with other mediocre threads all about the same topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgyfan Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If this were soccer I would agree that AV should carry the can but the Canuck line up is devised primarily by a tandem........more if you include assistants and scouts..........but in the main the team is supplied by MG and coached by AV Well how has MG helped AV recently? (since the SC) He has traded Hodgson (and let's not forget Sultzer, someone who never got a real chance) for Kassian and someone (Gragnani) AV/MG threw away after spending the "pre playoff games" messing up the defence trying him out. Kassian will be good, I have no doubt about that and maybe the moving of Hodgson was forced on MG. That said he should have devised a package that got something "hot" for the pending campaign. He didn't. As for Pahalsson......more mediocrity. He ditched Rome and Salo while taking on 2 "hummers" for the Wolves and keeping nice guy Alberts. I'm sorry I love nice guys but only if they are performing. Rome was a very physical, underrated player and boy we could have used him now. Salo was ditched because he "had a history of injuries" in an injury inclined team......big deal! He was still a huge influence on our D, very strong and with a proven lethal snapshot. He brings in Garrison after one half decent season and awards him the "kingdom" putting him up alongside players like Bieksa and Hamhuis.........who have actually proved they have got what it takes. The much vaunted canon on this guy is in need of sending back to the factory or he needs an appointment with an optician. True it is early days but the guy is an expensive gamble......again. Sammy and Sturm, he decided were surplus, fair enough. However again he builds a trade that means we are gambling. I mean if Sammy was good enough to get the deal he has with Detroit only last year it makes me think we undervalued him. Sturm was another Gilis "project ( Mike Gillis acknowledged the risk in signing Sturm, given his two knee surgeries in the past three years) a damned expensive one at $2.5m.........in short another blunder. This blunder was then "knocked on" by taking yet another overpriced "project" David Booth. Booth is a trier, no doubt, goes to the net and all the other cliches but he is NOT a fit, nor does he have the impact, certainly not, at that price, we needed..........Oh and we lumbered the Aquilnis with the expensive Reinprecht as part of the deal. Anyone seeing a trend here yet? Mediocrity and projects when what our team needed was bold imaginative moves to enhance our SC prospects. Add to that our less than sterling draft performances. Hell we could have had draft picks for all the rubbish above and been better placed with a couple of UFAs than we are now. So you see AV has had f---all help and arguably hinderance from big Mike since dragging his battered and battle weary squad to game 7 in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Briefly started reading the OP. Then I saw the name of who created it. I stopped reading immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicNuckleHead09 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If you can't see a trend then I doubt there is hope for you. I couldn't be more explicit. I said Hodgson may have been excusable, so we agree. As for Kassian, you say "he has potential) again you agree. However he hasn't answered the need, and won't for another 2 seasons imo. Sulzer at least had potential to play in the NHL..............but Gragnani and the 2 plugs we sent to the Wolves? So where's your point. We are worse off with the departure of Salo AND Rome AND Ehrhoff.........we get Garrison. Salo would not have asked for the contract he got in Tampa (opinion based on other players)............but in fact his loss to our team almost says he IS worth what he is getting, given his impact there. I see no correlation to pre-season remarks I made and Salo, and NO Garrison isn't just as effective. He is all over the place and it's having the reverse effect on this team Salo had. Maybe Garrison will come round, the question is when and can we wait that long. My point about Booth has nothing to do with Raymond. Raymond HAS proved to be a fit and considering the the disparity in Salary my point is we could have done a lot better for $4.2m. I'm more worried about where Booth's head is to be honest and if I thought that would change then I might be convinced. He just doesn't appear to be a team player and he's not good enough to be anything else. It's time he realised that. I am not favouring AV, I'm saying it is hard to lay ALL the blame on the coach when this is obviously a partnership. If MG had got AV some ready to go pieces, and recognised that the team needed more size and pushback after the Boston series then I would have laid it all on AV. He has patently failed to do that and is therefor culpable in the stalling of this team big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbal23 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If you can't see a trend then I doubt there is hope for you. I couldn't be more explicit. I said Hodgson may have been excusable, so we agree. As for Kassian, you say "he has potential) again you agree. However he hasn't answered the need, and won't for another 2 seasons imo. Sulzer at least had potential to play in the NHL..............but Gragnani and the 2 plugs we sent to the Wolves? So where's your point. We are worse off with the departure of Salo AND Rome AND Ehrhoff.........we get Garrison. Salo would not have asked for the contract he got in Tampa (opinion based on other players)............but in fact his loss to our team almost says he IS worth what he is getting, given his impact there. I see no correlation to pre-season remarks I made and Salo, and NO Garrison isn't just as effective. He is all over the place and it's having the reverse effect on this team Salo had. Maybe Garrison will come round, the question is when and can we wait that long. My point about Booth has nothing to do with Raymond. Raymond HAS proved to be a fit and considering the the disparity in Salary my point is we could have done a lot better for $4.2m. I'm more worried about where Booth's head is to be honest and if I thought that would change then I might be convinced. He just doesn't appear to be a team player and he's not good enough to be anything else. It's time he realised that. I am not favouring AV, I'm saying it is hard to lay ALL the blame on the coach when this is obviously a partnership. If MG had got AV some ready to go pieces, and recognised that the team needed more size and pushback after the Boston series then I would have laid it all on AV. He has patently failed to do that and is therefor culpable in the stalling of this team big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloutier123 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 First off "AV should carry the can" was stupid. Trading COHO (midget-boy) playing 3rd line center and Sulzer (not "Sultzer") a mediocare cast off for Kassian (true-champ) and Gragnani, another cast off. A great trade, Kassian will help this team more than midget-boy and or Sulzer ever could. nuff said. "That said he should have devised a package that got something "hot" for the pending campaign. He didn't." Kassian's 4 goals in 6 games, leading the Canucks in scoring is "hot". Nuff said. Salo should have stayed. He was a core part to this team for many years, and he scored alot of big goals. Salo's career is almost wrapped up, replacing him with home-town Garrison was a smart choice. David Booth. He hasn't earned his Nuck stripes. It goes without saying that I hope he does. "Oh and we lumbered the Aquilnis with the expensive Reinprecht as part of the deal." The Aquilini family are billionaires they can easily afford to pay Reinprecht a few mil to play in the minors, it's a non-issue. We have the best GM and Coach in the NHL. Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertuzzi Babe Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm definitely seeing a trend, but it's actually for mediocre threads in a forum filled with other mediocre threads all about the same topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter.S-Kerouac Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Ok someone is cranky. Ill start with Booth because I think that was a great trade. We didn't under value Sammy essentialy traded Sammy for Booth minus Sturm who had negative value. We got back a player that we have been lacking on this team (top 6 pf winger with wheels and a nose for the net). The exact type of player we needed to beat Boston the year before. Booth hasn't earned his paycheque yet but give him a chance he's only played half a season for us. If Kes would have passed more he would have been much more effective. But the point is on paper he is exactly the type of player we have been lusting for for years. MG got him for an older slower crankyer self entitled (how dare they cut me from the swedish national team #%^* them. I should be playing with the Sedins not Burr blah blah) and then MG managed to get Tallon to choke on Sturm. Point is we got a player who we needed badly in the prior playoffs for 2 rental players both of which were injured and only one of which played more than a handfull of games last season. Hmm who do ya think won that one. Salo I love Salo hes a real pal O. Garri has played 6 games pretty early to judge I imagine he will look alot better when Edler stops channeling his inner Hoff and giving up an odd man rush every second shift. I do miss Salo though. Its pretty obvious why this move was made It was to protect Salo from anymore "canuck luck" I mean he lost a nut and got bit by a poisonus snake and was guaranteed at least 3 injuries a season. MG let him go for his own safety. CoHo dont get started on that. Kass is a better fit for this team. You can't be sheltering your 3rd line in the playoffs that doesn't make sense. Phalsson was the best shutdown center available ATT he had a solid resume and played with the Sedins before. It made perfect sense to me. Rome is making more than hes worth..... the list goes on I think if you look at our healthy roster were bigger just as fast and have more high end tallent if we can just get kes back to 2011 kes were looking pretty good right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenDrinkin Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I don't even know why I come to CDC anymore. So many armchair GM's, so many Chicken Littles, so much anger. It's just a sport, either we will win or lose, it doesn't matter. So many people here need a lot more in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloutier123 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I don't even know why I come to CDC anymore. So many armchair GM's, so many Chicken Littles, so much anger. It's just a sport, either we will win or lose, it doesn't matter. So many people here need a lot more in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goal:thecup Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 GMMG has had to deal with the loss of Bourdon (10th overall; destined to be a good defenseman or at least able to bring talent back in a trade), Sauve getting hit by a vehicle (which he does not seem to have recovered from), Malhotra's eye injury, Salo's freak injuries, Bieksa's freak injuries, Danny getting concussed by a cheap shot, Kesler's injuries and surgeries, Booth's injuries, Raymond's broken back, etc. Every team gets injuries but we seem to get more than our fair share and the tragic death of a young stud defenseman limited his opportunities to improve the team. Sauve looked like he was ready to make the big club before the accident and has not looked ready since. I am guilty of really liking Mike Gillis and what he has done for the Canucks and part of that is how he has overcome these things. Another thing that he has done is revamp a prospect pool full of Patrick White types (and I still do not like Grabner) so that we now can look forward to seeing how players like Jensen and Guance and Corrado and Mallet and and and work out. Are you another troll Bodee? Cuz GMMG has been great in my opinion and the best manager we have ever had (and I really liked Pat Quinn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossram Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 If this were soccer I would agree that AV should carry the can but the Canuck line up is devised primarily by a tandem........more if you include assistants and scouts..........but in the main the team is supplied by MG and coached by AV Well how has MG helped AV recently? (since the SC) He has traded Hodgson (and let's not forget Sultzer, someone who never got a real chance) for Kassian and someone (Gragnani) AV/MG threw away after spending the "pre playoff games" messing up the defence trying him out. Kassian will be good, I have no doubt about that and maybe the moving of Hodgson was forced on MG. That said he should have devised a package that got something "hot" for the pending campaign. He didn't. As for Pahalsson......more mediocrity. He ditched Rome and Salo while taking on 2 "hummers" for the Wolves and keeping nice guy Alberts. I'm sorry I love nice guys but only if they are performing. Rome was a very physical, underrated player and boy we could have used him now. Salo was ditched because he "had a history of injuries" in an injury inclined team......big deal! He was still a huge influence on our D, very strong and with a proven lethal snapshot. He brings in Garrison after one half decent season and awards him the "kingdom" putting him up alongside players like Bieksa and Hamhuis.........who have actually proved they have got what it takes. The much vaunted canon on this guy is in need of sending back to the factory or he needs an appointment with an optician. True it is early days but the guy is an expensive gamble......again. Sammy and Sturm, he decided were surplus, fair enough. However again he builds a trade that means we are gambling. I mean if Sammy was good enough to get the deal he has with Detroit only last year it makes me think we undervalued him. Sturm was another Gilis "project ( Mike Gillis acknowledged the risk in signing Sturm, given his two knee surgeries in the past three years) a damned expensive one at $2.5m.........in short another blunder. This blunder was then "knocked on" by taking yet another overpriced "project" David Booth. Booth is a trier, no doubt, goes to the net and all the other cliches but he is NOT a fit, nor does he have the impact, certainly not, at that price, we needed..........Oh and we lumbered the Aquilnis with the expensive Reinprecht as part of the deal. Anyone seeing a trend here yet? Mediocrity and projects when what our team needed was bold imaginative moves to enhance our SC prospects. Add to that our less than sterling draft performances. Hell we could have had draft picks for all the rubbish above and been better placed with a couple of UFAs than we are now. So you see AV has had f---all help and arguably hinderance from big Mike since dragging his battered and battle weary squad to game 7 in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Again you didnt really point out a trend.. other then players being moved in and out.. if all the players were similar and were traded for similar players then you could call it a trend.. also sometimes, if not the majority of then time players can take up to a full season to adjust to a new team and system. Luckily MG doesnt sell out this franchise for a single season as you would have him do, not resigning Salo who was old and injury prone was a good move, as was bringing Garison. Stop trying to complain about a GM who have won us something like 5 straight NW devision titles and back to back presidents trophies. Yes we have not won a cup, but thats not the GM's fault, he put us in a position to win it, which is all he can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 MG has made smart moves from the time of his arrival. Yes, you can talk about the bad signing in Sturm, but look who we packaged to get Booth, an overpriced reclamation project in Sturm and an aging Samuelsson for a 26 y/o with a proven ability to pot 60 points. The only negative about Booth is his contract, which you failed to mention in your post. Comprehension Instead your ramblings are directed towards things that you don't think 'fit' or you judge subjectively as not working. There is no clear thesis as to what you define as the 'trend'. You seem to imply throughout your post that we could be a more competitive team had some of these risks not been taken, then you imply that it would have been better just to stockpile picks? Comprehension That would make this team less competitive. It seems your posting just to be different, despite the clear logic in front of you. Salo was a leader on our D-core, no question, but he was also asking for term on a 35+ contract (which means we pay the full value of the contract, regardless of potential retirement). MG did offer Salo a 1 year deal, but Tampa offered 7m over 2 years, to a guy who hasn't played a full season in his career. Despite that he was and would have been a big key to our success this year Garrison as a replacement hasn't worked out 6 games into the season, I think we can wait for a bigger sample size before we complain about that. Comprehension He has been solid defensively, Has he? though he hasn't put up points yet. He has also been a horse on our backend averaging 23:05 of ice time a game. What MG has done since getting here is creating a culture of winning. Let me remind you again of our last GM in Dave Nonis, who in 07-08 signed Brad Isbister at free agency, and then went on to acquire Matt Pettinger at the deadline. At least with MG we are getting quality players to build upon a strong core. At the deadline every year we have gotten roster pieces, namely Lapierre, Higgins, Kassian etc. At free agency Gillis is actually able to attract free agents here, Demitra, Hamhuis, Garrison, Sundin etc. all signed here under Gillis's tenure while Nonis couldn't attract a single FA. On top of all this Gillis has locked up core players to long term deals, the Sedins, Bieksa, Luongo, Kesler, Schneider and more recently Edler. If that wasn't enough, he's gone over the top by hiring sleep specialists who then lobbied the NHL for a more lenient travel schedule. So ya, Gillis is sabotaging this team with the 2 players you were able to mention that haven't worked out here, or have yet to work out - TOTALLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 "Also, I like how you ignore all the brilliant moves MG has made in his time. Signing Hamhuis and Malhotra, Trading for Ehrhoff, trading for Higgins and Lapierre, signing Torres, etc, were all essential moves to even get into the Cup Final and having successful seasons." None of that has counted for crap since our 2011 SC failure. The whole point of the post, if you had read it, is that irrespective of what he did before that cup he has failed to address the real issues which led to our failure. The trend here is his continued refusal to do anything big enough to make a difference, it has all been sticking plasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckniforlife Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Damn it I thought the title said " There is a thread here..........and not a good one. B/c I'd agree with that. OP please please stop. i'm not crying out for players I'm hoping the GM picks up players he deems a good fit for the Canucks. That's his job. I'm pretty sure his employers back him since he was re-signed and "sucks so bad" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 "Are you another troll Bodee?" Ah the standard fallback of those who don't like other people expressing their own opinion. Why not answer the points instead trying to be a smart ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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