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Canucks have to re-consider the possibility of moving Cory Schneider? Don't they?


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#31 Armada

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:42 AM

No Schneider was apparently the starter, Luongo just took over according to everyone. And now he has fan opinion.


What are you talking about :mellow:

You've got it backwards.

If you're trying to compare our past 2 weeks to what happened in Montreal for 2 seasons that's not going to work.

Edited by Armada, 03 February 2013 - 02:45 AM.

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#32 Pineapples

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:42 AM

This is exactly why we shouldn't trade Schneider!!!

Luongo played great last week, its 8 games into the season, for all we know Schnieder could jump back in next game, and go on an even longer streak. It is waaayy to early to jump the gun like this.

Personally I think we should hold onto both for the time being, but Luongo is the one that ultimately should go, as Schneider overall is the better and more valuable option for us.


You're the one who's basing it off of last week. I've been basing it off the playoffs...
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#33 pwnstar

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:44 AM

The world really does hate gingers....
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#34 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:49 AM

That's what's different. Schneider could barely be called a starter. He was starter for what, 3 or 4 games? Price was starter for a couple of years.

And I don't think Lu's recent play has changed many people's opinions. Everyone who wanted him gone still does for the most part.

What are you talking about :mellow:

You've got it backwards.

If you're trying to make a comparison within 2 weeks to a span of 2 years for Montreal that's not even possible..

You're the one who's basing it off of last week. I've been basing it off the playoffs...


Alright, we seem to have that comparison in a different context, as I said specifics and circumstances are different, but the picture is basically the same, they went with the younger guy with high upside against fan opinion and it turned out to be the correct move.

Either way lets just put that aside anyways.

The perception and basis behind trading Schneider, is to improve our teams chances for this year right? By perceivably adding a star/impact player right?

How realistic is that? That's very unlikely to happen, odds are the deal we get will be a package of futures, they will be of higher quality of those we will get for Roberto, but the basis of moving Schneider (If you have that opinion for the better of the team, not for a personal bias toward Lu) is that it will make our team alot better for a cup run, futures don't do that.

Schneider is the more valuable piece to us aswell, not just to other teams, so if we are accepting futures in return for either goalie, I would just keep Schneider and Luongo for the time being, then trade Luongo for futures in the offseason.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 03 February 2013 - 02:51 AM.

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#35 Armada

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:52 AM

Alright, we seem to have that comparison in a different context, as I said specifics and circumstances are different, but the picture is basically the same, they went with the younger guy with high upside against fan opinion and it turned out to be the correct move.

Either way lets just put that aside anyways.

The perception and basis behind trading Schneider, is to improve our teams chances for this year right? By perceivably adding a star/impact player right?

How realistic is that? That's very unlikely to happen, odds are the deal we get will be a package of futures, they will be of higher quality of those we will get for Roberto, but the basis of moving Schneider (If you have that opinion for the better of the team, not for a personal bias toward Lu) is that it will make our team alot better for a cup run, futures don't do that.

Schneider is the more valuable piece to us aswell, not just to other teams, so if we are accepting futures in return for either goalie, I would just keep Schneider and Luongo for the time being, then trade Luongo for futures in the offseason.


Or trade em both then we wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.

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#36 Tom Sestito

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:58 AM

trade them both for holtby

srs godly trade
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#37 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:00 AM

Or trade em both then we wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.

-_-


Yeah, this situation is grueling. I'm not too excited to see what happens when Lack and Cannata are ready for the show. :lol:
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#38 Rey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:00 AM

Usually I'd be in a situation to say, trading the young player would be insane but I don't think its the case. In fact, I have to be neutral on this because there are reasons to trade either goalies. I think many people would trade Luongo first, because he'll free up more salary, and he hasn't worked exactly been great in the playoffs, and that perhaps its time for a change. It's all true but....

We've spent how much years with Luongo? and how much has he learned here? We've seen him develop, and he still continues to grow. He's 33. In the past few years, We've actually seen him mature and he's become more mentally tough than we've ever seen him before. A couple years ago in the finals, we saw him act like a child and perhaps, that was needed for him to come to the realization to finally fully not really care what the media says about him. His mental game getting better, hopefully he is less likely to collapse in playoff games and break down in series match ups. Emotions get the most of him, and that's clearly haven't bother since the finals.

With that being said, i do believe goaltenders are better in their mid to late 30's because of their mentality and we've seen several of goaltenders that are late 30's to 40's that do well in the playoffs. Tim Thomas, Dwayne Roloson, just to name a couple. It'll be a whole lot of years before Schneider gets the experience that Luongo has.

I do believe the biggest question is also long - term. So, we think that Schneider is the long term solution, he also becomes a UFA in 2 years. There are many risk. Either he lives up to expectations or bust. If he turns into the goalie we think he will, how much money will he make and why would he stay here? If he's bust, then we're going to spend years finding another goaltender. Remember, Vancouver, before Luongo was a goalie graveyard for decades. With Luongo's long term contract, it's actually a safer route. We've had Luongo for years now, we kind of know what we're getting now.


You can't compare it to the Halak and Price situation since they were both so young. I'd love if the Canucks could get someone close to what Lars Eller is, a big monster two way center with lots of upside.

Edited by Rey, 03 February 2013 - 03:07 AM.

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#39 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:08 AM

Usually I'd be in a situation to say, trading the young player would be insane but I don't think its the case. In fact, I have to be neutral on this because there are reasons to trade either goalies. I think many people would trade Luongo first, because he'll free up more salary, and he hasn't worked exactly been great in the playoffs, and that perhaps its time for a change. It's all true but....

We've spent how much years with Luongo? and how much has he learned here? We've seen him develop, and he still continues to grow. He's 33. In the past few years, We've actually seen him mature and he's become more mentally tough than we've ever seen him before. A couple years ago in the finals, we saw him act like a child and perhaps, that was needed for him to come to the realization to finally fully not really care what the media says about him. His mental game getting better, hopefully he is less likely to collapse in playoff games and break down in series match ups. Emotions get the most of him, and that's clearly haven't bother since the finals.

With that being said, i do believe goaltenders are better in their mid to late 30's because of their mentality and we've seen several of goaltenders that are late 30's to 40's that do well in the playoffs. Tim Thomas, Dwayne Roloson, just to name a couple.

I do believe the biggest question is also long - term. So, we think that Schneider is the long term solution, he also becomes a UFA in 2 years. There are many risk. Either he lives up to expectations or bust. If he turns into the goalie we think he will, how much money will he make and why would he stay here? If he's bust, then we're going to spend years finding another goaltender. Remember, Vancouver, before Luongo was a goalie graveyard for decades. With Luongo's long term contract, it's actually a safer route. We've had Luongo for years now, we kind of know what we're getting now.


You can't compare it to the Halak and Price situation since they were both so young. I'd love if the Canucks could get someone close to what Lars Eller is, a big monster two way center with lots of upside.


Good post, you provide good insight from both sides of the coin. These bolded parts are things that stand out to me however.

The contract he signed was a bridge deal, if say Luongo goes, then Schneider plays like everyone thinks he will, then I think he will sign here, the deal was meant for us to see what he could really do on his own, without us making a long term commitment Although I don't have any question in my mind that if we chose him and he preforms, that he will reciprocate that loyalty and choose us.

And if he busts, I just want to point out that we won't have to look far, as we do have a few promising goalies in the system Lack and Cannata. :P
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#40 Moonshinefe

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:09 AM

Why are people arguing so much about one of our team's main strengths? Seriously, we have 2 good goalies, our 'backup' is hot right now and getting us the wins we sorely need. Let's just give it a rest--I think the management will make the right decision when the time comes. There's no clear solution right now, so let's wait it out!
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#41 Bure1994Mclean

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:09 AM

There's no going back, we've already alienated Luongo and now to turn back and do the reverse to Schneider, what's to say Luongo just says he ultimately doesn't want to be here as well, then what?
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#42 stonecoldstevebernier

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:14 AM

I think the return for Schneider would have to be mind-boggling for Gillis to pull the trigger, a star forward or defenseman (plus a backup goalie with Lack injured). But its a stalemate because MG wouldn't move Schneider unless it was for immediate help, a key player who puts the Canucks over the top. And other teams aren't going to pay that price for a goalie with two good partial seasons. I still think Luongo's more likely, and we shouldn't be fooled by his recent streak of starts... you do whatever you can to win with the assets available. Luongo's still Canucks property, and he's on a hot streak, so it makes sense to play him (especially since the season's short so every point matters more). Doesn't mean that Schneider's going anywhere.
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#43 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:19 AM

I think the return for Schneider would have to be mind-boggling for Gillis to pull the trigger, a star forward or defenseman (plus a backup goalie with Lack injured). But its a stalemate because MG wouldn't move Schneider unless it was for immediate help, a key player who puts the Canucks over the top. And other teams aren't going to pay that price for a goalie with two good partial seasons. I still think Luongo's more likely, and we shouldn't be fooled by his recent streak of starts... you do whatever you can to win with the assets available. Luongo's still Canucks property, and he's on a hot streak, so it makes sense to play him (especially since the season's short so every point matters more). Doesn't mean that Schneider's going anywhere.


Bingo!

You hit the nail on the head with this comment.

Keep them both till the offseason, then trade Luongo for futures, since we have already gone this far with our choice of Schneider.
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#44 youngbob_007

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:20 AM

Price was the franchise goaltender at the time who had shown brilliance but was often called inconsistent, a choke artist, and picked apart for both his on ice performances and post game interviews which sometimes made him vilified by fans.

Halak took years to develop and really would never have got his shot if it wasn't for the bad play of Carey Price. Halak played well, but if Price had been performing at a similar level then there would be no controversy, just an all star goalie tandem (the backup of which makes great trade bait).

Luongo has a resume of an entire career spanning a finals appearance, a gold medal, awards and team records. Schneider has one quality season as a backup. How can you evaluate the future of an organization based on that and conclude Schneider?

Scenario one: Win now

With the Sedin's getting older, a rapidly improving division and a franchise with a gradually depleting farm system now is the time to win and you can't do that breaking in a young goaltender.

Edge: Luongo


Scenario two: Maximize return value on the trade

Teams like the Flames who have an aging goaltender in Kiprusoff or teams like the Islanders who have no goaltending period are looking to build on a timeline similar to the Oilers, meaning a full rebuild of about 3-5 years. Luongo is still young enough to post career numbers into the final years of the deal, but it's highly unlikely he'd be willing to sit through a rebuild.

Edge: Luongo


Scenario three: Rebuild

If the Canucks decide that the current lineup isn't getting it done, there is always the option of dismantling the team and starting from scratch, but after two straight seasons of posting the best record in the league and such cap affordable salaries as Burrows and the Sedin's, why would you?

Edge: Schneider


Scenario four: Make a decision based off of past experience and achievement

Luongo: Six time all star, gold medalist, world cup winner, and former team captain from 2008-10 in addition to holding the records for most saves in a single season (2,303 in 2003–04), most shots faced in a single season (2,488 in 2005-06), most shots faced in a single playoff game (76 on April 11, 2007), most home games played in a single season (41 in 2006-07), and most regular season overtime wins at 49. Oh, and all of this achieved in what many would consider one of the worst goalie graveyards in NHL history.

Schneider: He split the Jennings with Luongo in 2010-11.

Edge: Luongo


Scenario 5: Salary implications

In Luongo's career of apparent "inconsistency", he's never had a season where his GAA average is 3 or higher (which says a lot because he played half his career in Florida!). Keeping this in mind (and with the pace he's setting so far this year), he shows no real signs of slowing down.

Though Schneider hasn't played nearly enough to demonstrate any sort of consistency (good or bad), one of two things would happen if we kept him and had to resign him after three years. One, he played above and beyond expectations, and now deserves a raise! With the premium on goalies you'd have to think that he would be entitled to at LEAST a two million dollar raise, putting his cap hit above Luongo's. Two, he chokes and gets run out of town (as this city seems so prone to do) and now we're all left wondering if Lack will be able to fill the hole (If we even still have him then). At 5.3 million for a future HOF goaltender who made the commitment to retire playing in front of this team for these fans, I fail to see how it's a good idea to run him out of town. What kind of example does that set to the league? Do we not want our franchise players to retire here? We traded Linden (albeit he did come back), we let Naslund walk, how can guys sign for home town discounts (Hamhuis, Garrison) or take paycuts (Sedin's, Burrows) if the team has a blatant history of running players out of the city? It's not just about Luongo vs Schneider but about the good of the team. We get called dirty, cheap, classless, weaselly and cheaters so do we really need to add more fuel to the fire?

Edge: Luongo



Edit: Spelled "Kiprusoff" with two P's :P

Edited by youngbob_007, 03 February 2013 - 03:25 AM.

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#45 TotesMagotes

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:21 AM

If we trade Schneider.

It will be like if Montreal traded Price instead of Halak, it is something we will regret. Just watch.


You're comparing Halak to Luongo?
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#46 Rey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:22 AM

Good post, you provide good insight from both sides of the coin. These bolded parts are things that stand out to me however.

The contract he signed was a bridge deal, if say Luongo goes, then Schneider plays like everyone thinks he will, then I think he will sign here, the deal was meant for us to see what he could really do on his own, without us making a long term commitment Although I don't have any question in my mind that if we chose him and he preforms, that he will reciprocate that loyalty and choose us.

And if he busts, I just want to point out that we won't have to look far, as we do have a few promising goalies in the system Lack and Cannata. :P


As much as i want to believe that Schneider is loyal, he's always been a Boston fan. He's a Boston kid at heart and always will be. Couple years ago, he admitted to focusing more on the Red Sox, then on his own play in Canucks training camp. Bridge contracts mean nothing, Schneider can walk away if he wants. It's not set in stone.

The Canucks should have figured out what they wanted to do with Schneider. If they don't know if he can perform without Luongo, then they wouldn't have given him the starter's position or the contract. Luongo wouldn't have been shopped the way he supposedly has been. If Luongo gets traded, Schneider bust then automatically, it's back to square one and time to rebuild. There just isn't time to wait for Lack and Cannata to develop.

BTW - trying not to be bias here. I've never liked Luongo's personality, and think Schneider is more likable but whoever i like more isn't and shouldn't be how i am coming to conclusion.
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#47 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:26 AM

You're comparing Halak to Luongo?


Not directly, more so the situation.
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#48 Primus099

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:26 AM

As much as i want to believe that Schneider is loyal, he's always been a Boston fan. He's a Boston kid at heart and always will be. Couple years ago, he admitted to focusing more on the Red Sox, then on his own play in Canucks training camp. Bridge contracts mean nothing, Schneider can walk away if he wants. It's not set in stone.

The Canucks should have figured out what they wanted to do with Schneider. If they don't know if he can perform without Luongo, then they wouldn't have given him the starter's position or the contract. Luongo wouldn't have been shopped the way he supposedly has been. If Luongo gets traded, Schneider bust then automatically, it's back to square one and time to rebuild. There just isn't time to wait for Lack and Cannata to develop.

BTW - trying not to be bias here. I've never liked Luongo's personality, and think Schneider is more likable but whoever i like more isn't and shouldn't be how i am coming to conclusion.


They never did. Gillis never came right out and said "Schneider will be the starter" it was all media and fan driven just because Schneider replaced Luongo for 3 games against the Kings and signed a new contract. Which as someone I think already mentioned seemed like the type of contract you sign a guy to that you aren't quite 100% ready to full commit to yet, if they knew they wanted him to be the new starter and were fully commited to this why only a 3 year deal? Seems like they want to see how things go before they lock him up. Just like Montreal only signing Subban to a 2 year deal.

Schneider became our starter for those playoff games by outplaying Luongo, Luongo is outplaying Schneider so far so why is it unrealistic to think Luongo can get the starting job back. I know it's early but the work he did with Allaire seems to have made him into a completely new goalie.

Edited by Primus099, 03 February 2013 - 03:28 AM.

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#49 kmotamed

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:29 AM

I much rather Cory goes, than Lu. Roberto is just playing too well, and has the track record to back it up!
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#50 Horny Manatee

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:32 AM

I'm tired of the future. live in the now. who cares if we suck for the next 10 years.
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#51 Spoosh

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:35 AM

If Schneider is traded for some reason, it won't be before the summer. That's a given.
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#52 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:38 AM

As much as i want to believe that Schneider is loyal, he's always been a Boston fan. He's a Boston kid at heart and always will be. Couple years ago, he admitted to focusing more on the Red Sox, then on his own play in Canucks training camp. Bridge contracts mean nothing, Schneider can walk away if he wants. It's not set in stone.

The Canucks should have figured out what they wanted to do with Schneider. If they don't know if he can perform without Luongo, then they wouldn't have given him the starter's position or the contract. Luongo wouldn't have been shopped the way he supposedly has been. If Luongo gets traded, Schneider bust then automatically, it's back to square one and time to rebuild. There just isn't time to wait for Lack and Cannata to develop.

BTW - trying not to be bias here. I've never liked Luongo's personality, and think Schneider is more likable but whoever i like more isn't and shouldn't be how i am coming to conclusion.


They have figured out what they want to do with Schneider. This trade Cory thing is fan & media driven. I'm confident we are still going to move forward with CS. It's not like Luongo has been on fire for a month and is dominating the league to the point we can't trade him, it has been 3 games. We tested Schneider and he looks to be the real deal. I don't see any reason why he will feel, I have full confidence in him and management does too.

Also Lack is close, Cannata is further aways but Lack is close enough that he will step in next year and could very well be in the same position Schneids was in in 10/11.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 03 February 2013 - 03:39 AM.

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#53 Rey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:39 AM

They never did. Gillis never came right out and said "Schneider will be the starter" it was all media and fan driven just because Schneider replaced Luongo for 3 games against the Kings and signed a new contract. Which as someone I think already mentioned seemed like the type of contract you sign a guy to that you aren't quite 100% ready to full commit to yet, if they knew they wanted him to be the new starter and were fully commited to this why only a 3 year deal? Seems like they want to see how things go before they lock him up. Just like Montreal only signing Subban to a 2 year deal.

Schneider became our starter for those playoff games by outplaying Luongo, Luongo is outplaying Schneider so far so why is it unrealistic to think Luongo can get the starting job back. I know it's early but the work he did with Allaire seems to have made him into a completely new goalie.


Canucks management certainly played a part in hyping Schneider. Didn't help that Gillis said that there was a potential deal in play a couple weeks ago. It wouldn't make any sense for Schneider nor the Canucks to make a long term commitment. Schneider could get more money, and Vancouver wouldn't have to be worried about being tied up to a contract. 4 Million for 3 years is still pretty substantial.

Either way, if Schneider is going to be dealt, it should be this summer because the Canucks can't possibly want to wait until his last year before he becomes a free agent.
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#54 Rey

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:45 AM

They have figured out what they want to do with Schneider. This trade Cory thing is fan & media driven. I'm confident we are still going to move forward with CS. It's not like Luongo has been on fire for a month and is dominating the league to the point we can't trade him, it has been 3 games. We tested Schneider and he looks to be the real deal. I don't see any reason why he will feel, I have full confidence in him and management does too.

Also Lack is close, Cannata is further aways but Lack is close enough that he will step in next year and could very well be in the same position Schneids was in in 10/11.


They shouldn't have already made a decision. The smart thing, would be to keep both make a decision and trade one in the summer. Looking like a real deal means nothing. Canucks can be in serious trouble if Schneider doesn't pan out. Schneider has to be the number 1 this season, to see if he can deal with being a starting goaltender and be able to play under pressure in the playoffs at the same time. Then you make a decision in the summer.

We're talking about elite goaltender here. Even if Lack turns out like Schneids in 10/11, it'll still take 2-3 years to adjust like Schneider did. Ask Toronto and Edmonton about the long list of goaltenders that looked promising only to fail miserably in the NHL. By the time Lack is ready to be a starter in the NHL, the Sedins will no longer be top players in the NHL. Like i said, rebuild time.

It would be a damn shame if the Canucks screw themselves up and have to go through goalies for another decade to find another elite guy. Though, still better than the Leafs trading a franchise guy in Rask for nothing.

Edited by Rey, 03 February 2013 - 03:58 AM.

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#55 MyNameIsTom

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:03 AM

There is absolutely no way that Carey Price is better than Halak. No way.

Besides, the comparison doesn't make sense for the Canucks' situation.

But seriously, Halak is way better than Price.
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#56 tigbond

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:08 AM

And then what happens when the stakes are high and Lu starts blowing games in the playoffs? Just keep playing him and hope for the best?

When your two star players (the Sedins) don't show up in the playoffs, why is it Luongo gets all the blame? Isn't it possible that the entire culture of this team has been built around the Sedins, and their passive style of aggression/play isn't suited to the playoffs?

Edited by tigbond, 03 February 2013 - 04:08 AM.

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#57 CodyHodgson's #1fan

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:46 AM

The best case scenario in my mind would be keeping lu and moving cory, i heard he is getting tiked off anyways (or seems to be, btw ive been looking for that video of him talking about the situation angrily that some people have been saying they watch and cant find it anywhere! Little help? )

Anyways i have been saying since day one of this "wave his clause! Trade him! He sucks! " that LU should stay because cory is unproven ! Cory if you dont remember played against the very bad teams about 80% of the time, no wonder he won those games ! Honestly its early and i dont want to go to far into this just yet but i say lu stays cory goes is best for the team and not just because of the sudden frenzy for luongo !
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Always will love and support Cody Hodgson, great player, great potential great character, and I don't care about those stupid rumours about the trade. And we lost him, what a dissapointment. Love you COHO, forever a canuck in my heart!

One day Luongo will raise Lord Stanley's cup.
And show all those haters that he is the amazing goalie that he is.
No matter what jersey he wears, I will always be cheering for Luongo.

Forever Believe.

#58 Jinx_RK17

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:47 AM

While you people are writing 20 page essays for answers the only logical thing to do right now is see how our offense and i guess defense does when Kesler and Booth come back and take it from there. If they could back and shape up and by that time hopefully the Sedins will be back in full swing, we have a very scary offensive team. More then people would expect. Kassian and producing, Sedins are slow as usual. Mayray has a really nice shot that he's gained my respect back for and skates better. Schroeder will start scoring he's hungry for it and you can see it every time he crashes the net. Burr is just a no brainer. Higgins is in limbo :wacko:, With Garrison and Edler at our back line for the PP. ON TOP of Booth and Kesler ( giving they warm up and adapt before it's too late).

TL:DR. Wait it out. We're literally 8 games in. With two potential big offensive keys in our pockets waiting to be played. Offensive sinks? Make a trade. Offensive is fine? We have two of the best in between the pipes! We're not doing bad at all guys, we have a scary team!

GO CANUCKS GO! :towel: :canucks: :towel:
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#59 Noheart

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 05:07 AM

They have played 4 games each.

spazz cases.
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BEASTLY!!!

#60 geebster

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 05:23 AM

Hows about we keep both and play whoever is playing better and if they get a deal they cant refuse then they accept it. Otherwise, let it play out til the offseason. I do not think they should be in any hurry to trade anyone. Schneider will be fine, he will play well at some point this year and get his chance to string games together too.

Right now Luongo deserves some play since we know how good he is when he is on a streak, but with the schedule being so condensed, Schneids will get his chance at redemption. I think (and hope) he will dominate so we have both playing well and people can get off the goalie story for a while.
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