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Saudi preacher gets fine and short jail term for raping and killing daughter


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#61 coleman26

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

Then we do agree that human nature is also dependent on the environment. The natural environment around them decides their nature, and the majority of people in that nation were raised in a poisonous environment.

However, that's not why I was back, I actually wanted to pose another question.

How progressive are the youth in Saudi Arabia? You have to imagine that, with how far behind they are in the area of human rights, womens rights, so forth, that it might not even be this generation that liberates them. The young men of the nation were still raised in a world that was predominantly catered towards them. Progress would cripple their power, and they remain a very devoted to tradition and religion people. We assume that because we've progressed to a point where Women are 'equal' (not even a debate for right now) and the LGBT community is getting there that the paradigm shift in Arabia will meet our standards, but short of a revolutionary change in thinking, it's not impossible to consider that it may be another 50 or 60 years before the old ways die out. Although, they are rich, and that brings influence. This isn't like getting influence into war torn Africa or something. With money brings outsiders, and the outsiders who come matter. But business and political contacts who may not choose to blow large deals by mentioning how terrible their human rights standards are. I'm caught in a web of circular logic.
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#62 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:06 PM

[quote name='coleman26' timestamp='1360108096' post='11121213']
Then we do agree that human nature is also dependent on the environment. The natural environment around them decides their nature, and the majority of people in that nation were raised in a poisonous environment.

However, that's not why I was back, I actually wanted to pose another question.

How progressive are the youth in Saudi Arabia? You have to imagine that, with how far behind they are in the area of human rights, womens rights, so forth, that it might not even be this generation that liberates them. The young men of the nation were still raised in a world that was predominantly catered towards them. Progress would cripple their power, and they remain a very devoted to tradition and religion people. We assume that because we've progressed to a point where Women are 'equal' (not even a debate for right now) and the LGBT community is getting there that the paradigm shift in Arabia will meet our standards, but short of a revolutionary change in thinking, it's not impossible to consider that it may be another 50 or 60 years before the old ways die out. Although, they are rich, and that brings influence. This isn't like getting influence into war torn Africa or something. With money brings outsiders, and the outsiders who come matter. But business and political contacts who may not choose to blow large deals by mentioning how terrible their human rights standards are. I'm caught in a web of circular logic.
[/quote]

Here in australia women are still not treated as "equally" in the workforce , they are not paid as much as their male counterparts.
While we have made giant strides compared to places like saudi arabia , discrimination based on gender still exists in my society.

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 05 February 2013 - 05:07 PM.

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#63 DeNiro

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

No actually its the most fundamentalist. They have a lot of money from oil but they are extremely fundamentalist in religion and way of life.
This his has nothing to do with religion, I think this guy is just a monster, Plain and simple.


Actually it's not. It's one of the few middle eastern countries where women actually have rights.

So you're wrong there. And I didn't even mention religion.

Edited by DeNiro, 05 February 2013 - 05:14 PM.

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#64 taxi

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:17 PM

Maybe. But the Western influence is what you hope will eventually change them. What happens if that government collapses? The most powerful entity in the land will use it's influence to gain power, and that would undeniably be the religious contingent. Not that they don't have a stranglehold already, but with even less political influence shining through, they could manage to send the region back to the Jurassic period (see, because they're already in the Stone Ages. The joke isn't funny if you have to explain it)

You may be correct that they would collapse without Western influences, but there's almost a guarantee that things would get worse, because the fastest way to assume power is to do it ruthlessly.



The religious influence is already in power. The Saud family is totally linked with the religious Wahhabi movement. They both act in unison to support the other. The end result is that you have a religion that promotes the idea that the Saud family should be in power. The king of Saudi Arabia's official title is the "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques".

It works similarly to the way the old Serf system in England used to work. Where the royal family and the church were one and the same. The economic system is similar too. Oil revenues are paid directly to high ranking members of the Saud family, and then distributed down a chain, largely based on heriditery allegiances.

Saudi Arabis is already a fundamentalist state. They spend 100s of milliions of dollars every year exporting their religion. They are not only exporting their religious system, but their political one. The religious institutions are all based in Saudi Arabia, and the government uses them to maintain its total control.

Please keep in mind, I'm not talking about Islam, in general, but Wahhabism.

Edited by taxi, 05 February 2013 - 05:19 PM.

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#65 coleman26

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:40 PM

Well, I admitted they had a strangehold, but I'd like to believe that it has more of a chance of being influenced now than if a literal, 100% religious government was not only intact, but destined for a long term of power. And all that would inevitably do is draw the fundamentalists closer and drive progress out of the area. You'd have people fleeing under the cover of night.
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#66 WHL rocks

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:55 PM

Actually it's not. It's one of the few middle eastern countries where women actually have rights.

So you're wrong there. And I didn't even mention religion.


Actually you are wrong. Saudis practice ultra conservative form of Wahhabism. Women have very little rights in Saudi Arabistan. For instance women are not allowed to drive a car.

Not sure if you've been to the area or spent any amount of time in or close to middle east.

Most middle eastern countries have more freedom for both male and female than Saudi Arabistan.

Edited by WHL rocks, 05 February 2013 - 10:59 PM.

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#67 Salmonberries

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:44 AM

Now that we can run our cars on our own crap maybe it's time we stopped propping up these monsters.

Just a thought.






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#68 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:18 AM

The religious influence is already in power. The Saud family is totally linked with the religious Wahhabi movement. They both act in unison to support the other. The end result is that you have a religion that promotes the idea that the Saud family should be in power. The king of Saudi Arabia's official title is the "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques".

It works similarly to the way the old Serf system in England used to work. Where the royal family and the church were one and the same. The economic system is similar too. Oil revenues are paid directly to high ranking members of the Saud family, and then distributed down a chain, largely based on heriditery allegiances.

Saudi Arabis is already a fundamentalist state. They spend 100s of milliions of dollars every year exporting their religion. They are not only exporting their religious system, but their political one. The religious institutions are all based in Saudi Arabia, and the government uses them to maintain its total control.

Please keep in mind, I'm not talking about Islam, in general, but Wahhabism.


The reason that the King Henry VIII decided to form the Church of England Is that he got sick of the Catholic churches Efforts to rule the rulers combined with his desire to marry more than one woman who could provide him with an heir.
He did not need to use religion as a form of control in the same way as the saudi royal family do , rather he wanted to escape that control himself.
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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#69 لني

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:12 AM

I am unsure why people are surprised. Saudi Arabia is a theocracy and bases its system on an unwritten code from Sharia law with judges not following precedent. There is no Rule of Law as we understand it.
http://www.democracy...saudiarabia.php

Yes. It also means influence(waasTa) leads to the ability to corrupt.Too bad so sad if you are an Indonesian for example who commits a crime vs a local.Sad thing is from my experiences this is not at all surprising the penalty for said crime.The local papers always have stories about foreigners getting 2 months in the clink for "inappropriate behaviour" or a year in jail and deported for getting knocked up (imagine what happens to the child).Meanwhile if you are a local and especially one with influence killing someone because you drive your car with a "what god wills" attitude gets you a few months.Not unlike whats happened in the catholic church scandals there is a huge problem with a culture of silence.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#70 J.R.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

I'm having trouble thinking of what would be a suitable punishment for this sick monster. I'm vehemently opposed to the death penalty, torture or "eye for an eye" but I somehow don't feel that simply locking this @#$%'er up for the rest of his miserable life is enough punishment for what he did.

I support progressive justice where we move beyond our animalistic, sometimes bloodthirsty and archaic desires for retribution but I just don't know what that would be in this case.
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#71 Wetcoaster

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:47 PM

I'm having trouble thinking of what would be a suitable punishment for this sick monster. I'm vehemently opposed to the death penalty, torture or "eye for an eye" but I somehow don't feel that simply locking this @#$%'er up for the rest of his miserable life is enough punishment for what he did.

I support progressive justice where we move beyond our animalistic, sometimes bloodthirsty and archaic desires for retribution but I just don't know what that would be in this case.

25 years to life in prison with a work detail of cleaning toilets and a steady diet of ham sandwiches????
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#72 taxi

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:54 PM

The reason that the King Henry VIII decided to form the Church of England Is that he got sick of the Catholic churches Efforts to rule the rulers combined with his desire to marry more than one woman who could provide him with an heir.
He did not need to use religion as a form of control in the same way as the saudi royal family do , rather he wanted to escape that control himself.


Off topic but...the English church most certainly remained as a means of controling the population for many many years after its formation. Any time you have religion mixed with the state, you will see a similar outcome.

Edited by taxi, 06 February 2013 - 12:55 PM.

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#73 hudson bay rules

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:15 PM

Good thing the preacher isn't in a position of influence.
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#74 J.R.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:35 PM

25 years to life in prison with a work detail of cleaning toilets and a steady diet of ham sandwiches????


Doesn't seem harsh enough and I feel he should have to do something positive for abused children/women's rights/rape victims. Seriously, I'm just disgusted by his behaviour. I couldn't even bring myself to comment on this thread when I saw it yesterday.
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#75 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:45 PM

Off topic but...the English church most certainly remained as a means of controling the population for many many years after its formation. Any time you have religion mixed with the state, you will see a similar outcome.


Religious freaks have been trying to control people since the birth of religion , but comparing the english royal familys use of religion to that of the saudi royal family is absurd.

And there must always must be a seperation of church and state.

On that note , watch out for the catholic church coming to government near you


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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.





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