Saudi preacher gets fine and short jail term for raping and killing daughter

[Bertuzzi Babe]

I've had a really difficult time with even reading this thread let alone the OP and have delayed my response til now when I can actually see my keyboard as I type.

I live in the real world, I know it's an ugly, cruel and vicious place, especially for children but this, this story makes my heart hurt. It makes me nauseous. It fills me with such rage I'm not sure what to do with it. And sorrow, such sorrow for a little girl who should have felt nothing but love from a parent but instead was treated to such heinous evil the likes I can't even fathom. I have no wish or desire to understand what drives a man to do such a thing to his child....I just want him removed from the earth, preferably in a manner just like that which he subjected his child to.

I have a 5 year old niece and I would kill anyone who did something like this to her. I would probably have to fend off her father to get to him first, though.

And to think, that there are people, or a dogma, or a court that would sanction this sort of behavior by a parent by refusing to punish them accordingly, only reinforces the belief that true evil is alive and well in this world. When will we as a world society have had enough of children and innocent parties paying the ultimate price for it?

[Wetcoaster]

I've had a really difficult time with even reading this thread let alone the OP and have delayed my response til now when I can actually see my keyboard as I type.

I live in the real world, I know it's an ugly, cruel and vicious place, especially for children but this, this story makes my heart hurt. It makes me nauseous. It fills me with such rage I'm not sure what to do with it. And sorrow, such sorrow for a little girl who should have felt nothing but love from a parent but instead was treated to such heinous evil the likes I can't even fathom. I have no wish or desire to understand what drives a man to do such a thing to his child....I just want him removed from the earth, preferably in a manner just like that which he subjected his child to.

I have a 5 year old niece and I would kill anyone who did something like this to her. I would probably have to fend off her father first, though.

And to think, that there are people, or a dogma, or a court that would sanction this sort of behavior by a parent by refusing to punish them accordingly, only reinforces the belief that true evil is alive and well in this world. When will we as a world society have had enough of children and innocent parties paying the ultimate price for it?

[Buddhas Hand]

That is the problem when religion trumps the Rule of Law and why we should always be on guard against religious dogma intruding upon secular laws.

[coleman26]

Yeah, Wetcoaster has it down pat. No one is saying that this isn't evil, cruel, unjust, disgusting, horrifying, repulsive, repugnant or anything short of stomach churning. But it's almost an experiment in human nature. The reason this is tolerated is because judges have no power to work outside of their boundaries. If you indict one man for raping someone to death, you would have to indict everyone (even though, as Wetcoaster mentioned, Saudi Arabia doesn't work on a precedent basis, it would at least give enough power for someone else to make that decision)

But then that judge would get fired. Maybe stoned to death. It's not enough for one man to think it's repulsive. The entire nation, as a whole, has to step up, and they're not doing it. Consider the United States, who for the most part still does not allow gay marriage because the majority of voting Americans don't want it. Now, that is because a) returning war vets banged a statistical anomaly into the US and they're going to continue having power until they start dying around 2030 and most of them come from a time when being gay was wrong (which is actually pretty funny, if you know the religious backing behind a condemnation of homosexuality, but that's another topic)

We think it's sick because, never, in our wildest dreams, could we imagine there being a man in our community who would do this, and then walk, but it's almost the lifestyle out there. No one stands up for women's rights because they're likely to be stoned to death for it. You can't even suggest it.

In fact, to flip it entirely, I was having a discussion over cocktails the other night. I said 'You know what blows my mind? How do gang rapes happen? Because, at some point, someone in a group is going to have to make a pariah of himself and be like 'hey, so. Boring Thursday, huh? You know what would be exciting? If, like, 5 of us jumped in my van and went to find someone to rape' - But, I guess it happens? I don't understand how you could put your horribleness out there like that.

Now consider that advocating for the rights of women in Saudi Arabia would be like that. The next time you're hanging out with a bunch of your brahs, suggest, calmly and seriously, that you go out and rape someone, as a team. The disgust that you (should, if your friends aren't pieces of trash) feel from that room is nothing compared to what you would feel if you breached the subject of women's rights in an Arab country. THAT is why this doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things. There's a small contingent who is protesting, but they won't win. Why? Because they're the minority. Protesting is generally regarded as a youth endeavor for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post: There comes a time when the youth want progress, but don't have any of the power. Until they're the ones passing laws, nothing changes.

[Buddhas Hand]

Yeah, Wetcoaster has it down pat. No one is saying that this isn't evil, cruel, unjust, disgusting, horrifying, repulsive, repugnant or anything short of stomach churning. But it's almost an experiment in human nature. The reason this is tolerated is because judges have no power to work outside of their boundaries. If you indict one man for raping someone to death, you would have to indict everyone (even though, as Wetcoaster mentioned, Saudi Arabia doesn't work on a precedent basis, it would at least give enough power for someone else to make that decision)

But then that judge would get fired. Maybe stoned to death. It's not enough for one man to think it's repulsive. The entire nation, as a whole, has to step up, and they're not doing it. Consider the United States, who for the most part still does not allow gay marriage because the majority of voting Americans don't want it. Now, that is because a) returning war vets banged a statistical anomaly into the US and they're going to continue having power until they start dying around 2030 and most of them come from a time when being gay was wrong (which is actually pretty funny, if you know the religious backing behind a condemnation of homosexuality, but that's another topic)

We think it's sick because, never, in our wildest dreams, could we imagine there being a man in our community who would do this, and then walk, but it's almost the lifestyle out there. No one stands up for women's rights because they're likely to be stoned to death for it. You can't even suggest it.

In fact, to flip it entirely, I was having a discussion over cocktails the other night. I said 'You know what blows my mind? How do gang rapes happen? Because, at some point, someone in a group is going to have to make a pariah of himself and be like 'hey, so. Boring Thursday, huh? You know what would be exciting? If, like, 5 of us jumped in my van and went to find someone to rape' - But, I guess it happens? I don't understand how you could put your horribleness out there like that.

Now consider that advocating for the rights of women in Saudi Arabia would be like that. The next time you're hanging out with a bunch of your brahs, suggest, calmly and seriously, that you go out and rape someone, as a team. The disgust that you (should, if your friends aren't pieces of trash) feel from that room is nothing compared to what you would feel if you breached the subject of women's rights in an Arab country. THAT is why this doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things. There's a small contingent who is protesting, but they won't win. Why? Because they're the minority. Protesting is generally regarded as a youth endeavor for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post: There comes a time when the youth want progress, but don't have any of the power. Until they're the ones passing laws, nothing changes.

[coleman26]

No, we definitely should. But you also have to resolve yourself that it is meaningless. There isn't a person in power in Saudi Arabia who gives a flying eff about what we think. It's revolting, but trying to understand it as best we can is the only way to truly 'get it'. There's so many people who feel justifiably angered, but they should be just as mad at the reasons that nothing is changing, or will change in the foreseeable future. Having all the facts makes your anger better directed and more just.

[Wetcoaster]

What rule of law , the rule that whoever has the most money can hire the best BS talker , so the drug dealer gets 50 years time and the millionaire murderer just pays a fine.

There are very few places on this planet where a person can expect real justice , it all depends on how much money you have.

[coleman26]

also, you've missed the point. "we" as a society are changing, yes... as fast as our environment allows us to. It's a given fact that some places are more progressive than others, and that's because the people in power in those places have been bred into believing that the traditions and laws they're upholding are just. On another forum the other day, I made an ignorant comment that I 'loved hiring immigrants' because they have, part and parcel, fantastic work ethics (which wasn't so much the ignorant part, because immigrants have AMAZING work ethics) - the ignorant part was that I believed that simply because they had immigrated, they had immigrated from a country that had exceptionally poor working conditions. And when I said this, I was thinking of, you know, sweatshops in India, or the Apple plant where your iPads are made by poor workers who don't get bathroom breaks and the like. But that was just my understanding of a place of the world that I had never been, and yes, it was ignorant and I felt like an ass. BUT, that's how ignorance works. I had never been exposed to the realities, and as such, I made an opinion based on what I feel was true. Now imagine that ignorance in someone who, from the day he was born, to the day he became a man, to the day he got political power, to this very second, have been taught that women weren't equals, that shaming your family was reason enough to burn someone to death. This is someone who has spent his life in a system where honor killings were encouraged. Society can only progress as quickly as those with power do. So, yes, we're all moving forward, but you have to know that we're moving at different paces, and that some of us are still so enclosed that they don't understand what they're doing is wrong. And changing their minds means that they are literally admitting that their entire lives up to that point had been wrong. Jesus, there are some people who, even in the face of all of his failures, all of his immense, public, laughable failures, STILL think George W Bush was a good president BECAUSE HE WAS REPUBLICAN. You can't get those opinions to change even in the light of undeniable proof, but you expect those in power to change a law that has always existed and is deeply rooted in their religion, which, by the way, is significantly more serious business to them than it is to us (well, in the sense that damn near everyone in the country is devout)

It is what it is. Monstrous and disgusting. But complaining about it won't do anything. Literally nothing but time is going to change this.

[Salmonberries]

It's a regime that would probably collapse without Western political and military support. That's the real tragedy.

[Buddhas Hand]

No, we definitely should. But you also have to resolve yourself that it is meaningless. There isn't a person in power in Saudi Arabia who gives a flying eff about what we think. It's revolting, but trying to understand it as best we can is the only way to truly 'get it'. There's so many people who feel justifiably angered, but they should be just as mad at the reasons that nothing is changing, or will change in the foreseeable future. Having all the facts makes your anger better directed and more just.

[taxi]

It's a regime that would probably collapse without Western political and military support. That's the real tragedy.

[coleman26]

Maybe. But the Western influence is what you hope will eventually change them. What happens if that government collapses? The most powerful entity in the land will use it's influence to gain power, and that would undeniably be the religious contingent. Not that they don't have a stranglehold already, but with even less political influence shining through, they could manage to send the region back to the Jurassic period (see, because they're already in the Stone Ages. The joke isn't funny if you have to explain it)

You may be correct that they would collapse without Western influences, but there's almost a guarantee that things would get worse, because the fastest way to assume power is to do it ruthlessly.

[coleman26]

And, as mentioned above, they have all the resources they want. A rich government + no influence + immense religious pressure is not a good recipe for progress

[Buddhas Hand]

also, you've missed the point. "we" as a society are changing, yes... as fast as our environment allows us to. It's a given fact that some places are more progressive than others, and that's because the people in power in those places have been bred into believing that the traditions and laws they're upholding are just. On another forum the other day, I made an ignorant comment that I 'loved hiring immigrants' because they have, part and parcel, fantastic work ethics (which wasn't so much the ignorant part, because immigrants have AMAZING work ethics) - the ignorant part was that I believed that simply because they had immigrated, they had immigrated from a country that had exceptionally poor working conditions. And when I said this, I was thinking of, you know, sweatshops in India, or the Apple plant where your iPads are made by poor workers who don't get bathroom breaks and the like. But that was just my understanding of a place of the world that I had never been, and yes, it was ignorant and I felt like an ass. BUT, that's how ignorance works. I had never been exposed to the realities, and as such, I made an opinion based on what I feel was true. Now imagine that ignorance in someone who, from the day he was born, to the day he became a man, to the day he got political power, to this very second, have been taught that women weren't equals, that shaming your family was reason enough to burn someone to death. This is someone who has spent his life in a system where honor killings were encouraged. Society can only progress as quickly as those with power do. So, yes, we're all moving forward, but you have to know that we're moving at different paces, and that some of us are still so enclosed that they don't understand what they're doing is wrong. And changing their minds means that they are literally admitting that their entire lives up to that point had been wrong. Jesus, there are some people who, even in the face of all of his failures, all of his immense, public, laughable failures, STILL think George W Bush was a good president BECAUSE HE WAS REPUBLICAN. You can't get those opinions to change even in the light of undeniable proof, but you expect those in power to change a law that has always existed and is deeply rooted in their religion, which, by the way, is significantly more serious business to them than it is to us (well, in the sense that damn near everyone in the country is devout)

It is what it is. Monstrous and disgusting. But complaining about it won't do anything. Literally nothing but time is going to change this.

[coleman26]

I actually don't think we're that far apart on this. I'm just trying to say, I wasn't trying to insult.

[Buddhas Hand]

I disagree.

[Wetcoaster]

You can disagree all you like , but the fact of the matter is that lawyers are like all other professionals , you have the good the bad and the mediocre , the lawyers who are the most proficient at their job charge more money , so if you do not have money you cannot afford to buy their services.

Do you call this a system that will provide true justice for all ?

[Salmonberries]

Are they dating.....or just good friends??!!!

[Buddhas Hand]

I actually don't think we're that far apart on this. I'm just trying to say, I wasn't trying to insult.

[Buddhas Hand]

I disagree because you appear to have fundamental misunderstanding of the Rule of Law and how it applies and operates.

I bill at the top end in my specialty. I take cases pro bono (aka for free), discount my fees where a person has financial limits, use contingency fees where appropriate ( I win or the client does not pay my fees), accept Legal Aid and reduced fee appointments from from the bench and tribunals.

In fact in my entire career I only ever had one client apply to have my account reduced - I won that case on a very novel point of law, discounted my fee and the client still applied for a review of my account. The outcome? The Registrar after examining the result, my discount and what was achieved raised my fee. I then agreed to take the originally discounted fee with no interest rather than enforce the new account.

There are numerous other lawyers I know who do the same that I do.

I am not sure if that is the case in Australia but here the vast majority of lawyers take their professional responsibilities quite seriously. It is an area have taught in the past at law school. This book may assist you in becoming informed on the subject - "Understanding Lawyers' Ethics in Canada"

http://www.lexisnexi...d=prd-cad-00890