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Canucks Management needs to decide the future of this Franchise


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#1 Sedinry

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:59 PM

Thought I'd see what others think of our organization as a whole.

We are currently at a crossroads with the core decision being our goaltending.
However the way I see it is we have 2 choices.

First of all, we have decide if this team wants to fully rebuild and go on a fire sale and start over or contend for the cup. This seems like an easy question but the heart of it belongs to our goaltending.

Cory Schneider's early "lapse" simply states that he's got things to learn, and of course he does, he's a new goalie to a market where Goalies get scrutinized more than a criminal.

But the fact remains, Luongo has gotten immense experience and in the past 2 years since the SCF has done alot of growing up. He is mentally tougher and the way he handles Media is 10-fold from before.

Cory Schneider has yet to come into these "hardships" and face the hardships of being a #1 goalie.

This will take time, and will take time to get to a cup. We're not a team who is easy on a goalie and would love for Schneids to be Cam Ward and usurp the #1 position. Instead we would scrutinize him the whole way through.


Which leads to the fact that if the Canucks want to contend for the Cup and they will be able to do so for the next 4-5 years, they can get assets to help them by trading Schneider. If they feel that they want to rebuild, then trading Luongo now is the right choice, along with the Sedin's and our other star players for high draft picks.

I believe this is the reality of our situation and the correct choice belongs to which Goalie gets traded for what picks. At this point Schneider would give us a higher return but I think we all know that Lu is an elite goalie that can win this team the Cup and if we want to contend, it's better off that we keep him, other wise Gillis should trade Lu and start to shop our main players to keep our team successful in the years to come rather than have a drop off as we did in the late 90's.
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#2 Mookie Wilson

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:01 PM

The ol' contend now or rebuild dichotomy. So popular rite now.
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#3 Quoted

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:08 PM

*
POPULAR

Cory's "early lapse" is grossly overstated!
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#4 goalie13

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:10 PM

I feel like we had this same thread (but with lots of research) yesterday...

http://forum.canucks...tistics-inside/
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#5 oldnews

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

Thought I'd see what others think of our organization as a whole.

We are currently at a crossroads with the core decision being our goaltending.
However the way I see it is we have 2 choices.

First of all, we have decide if this team wants to fully rebuild and go on a fire sale and start over or contend for the cup. This seems like an easy question but the heart of it belongs to our goaltending.

Cory Schneider's early "lapse" simply states that he's got things to learn, and of course he does, he's a new goalie to a market where Goalies get scrutinized more than a criminal.

But the fact remains, Luongo has gotten immense experience and in the past 2 years since the SCF has done alot of growing up. He is mentally tougher and the way he handles Media is 10-fold from before.

Cory Schneider has yet to come into these "hardships" and face the hardships of being a #1 goalie.

This will take time, and will take time to get to a cup. We're not a team who is easy on a goalie and would love for Schneids to be Cam Ward and usurp the #1 position. Instead we would scrutinize him the whole way through.


Which leads to the fact that if the Canucks want to contend for the Cup and they will be able to do so for the next 4-5 years, they can get assets to help them by trading Schneider. If they feel that they want to rebuild, then trading Luongo now is the right choice, along with the Sedin's and our other star players for high draft picks.

I believe this is the reality of our situation and the correct choice belongs to which Goalie gets traded for what picks. At this point Schneider would give us a higher return but I think we all know that Lu is an elite goalie that can win this team the Cup and if we want to contend, it's better off that we keep him, other wise Gillis should trade Lu and start to shop our main players to keep our team successful in the years to come rather than have a drop off as we did in the late 90's.


Hard to take this seriously tbh. "Fire sale" = not thought out, at all.
Neither of these options are the course Gillis has chosen.

Edited by oldnews, 06 February 2013 - 01:17 PM.

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#6 timberz21

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:24 PM

How is one bad game (ANA) means Schneider isn't ready? SJ's game doesn't count when Edler and Garrison assisted on the first 2 goals.

Team is starting to play well now and it's not because they play with confidence with KLuongo in net and they don't with Schneider (complete opposite in playoff last year). It's just timing.

Plus you don't do a fire sale when your leading the division and have won it the last 3-4 years.
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#7 ForsbergTheGreat

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:26 PM

So by your logic, if the canucks go with Cory they wont win a cup and our only chance to win the cup is with Luongo?
1st point - Luongo hasn't got it done before and now after plaing 5 games this season you think he's made this big change and everything will be different. Give it some time.
2nd point - Again you say Cory isn't ready based of less than 5 games in the season. He had one bad game. Only one, and you draw this conclusion.
3rd point- Sometimes goalies are not the only reason a team wins the cup, Neimi, Fluery, Osgood/Hasek. All were not the best players on their teams. They were good, maybe even great, but were not carrying the load on there backs like quick did. All they needed to do was keep the team in contention and let the players take over.
4th Point - Your idea that If we trade Luongo we have to rebuild. We have keys inplace, Corys not 18 years old, he's 26. You honeslty think he has that much to learn. He needs to be giving the opportunity to show he can play. "Oh no Cory had a bad first game, it means we will have to gut the team and rebuild if we stick with him."

It's really depressing seeing people jump to so many conclussion based on such an early season, Between this thread and the "oh no coho's got more points than the sedins". Seriously everyone needs to take a breath, relax and draw conclussion later on. This is almost as bad as saying a future star is a bust since he didn't score a hatrick his first game.

Edited by ForsbergTheGreat, 06 February 2013 - 01:28 PM.

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#8 Spoosh

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:38 PM

Fire sale rebuild mode is not the only way to evolve into a SC contender or winner. When has Detroit last rebuilt from scratch? New Jersey? Leafs, Flames, Islanders have that kinda option viable to them as they have no other choice any more. Some of the see it and some not so much. Edmonton is doing a fine job at it, as did Pittsburgh a number of years back. But we don't need that kinda housecleaning.

When the time comes we could just ever so gently move some of the old-timers and substitute them with newer ones as they come developed and ready from the minors with a few years of experience...?
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#9 Elliot

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:38 PM

I think it's too early to blow things up and decide to rebuild. We are only 2 years removed from a Cup finals appearance, and have as good a team, arguably better. Hell, I would say definitely better, when everyone is healthy. In regards to our goaltending, there are pros and cons to both Lou and Cory that have been discussed to death. With Cory, we have a young goalie that has made steady improvement over the last few years, has put up some great numbers, and has the potential to be a top goalie in the league for years to come. Some people might disagree with this, but when it comes down to it, it is a fact. Cory is still relatively unproven. He's never played a full season as starter, never even played half of a season. To my knowledge, he's never even started more than 6 games consecutively in the NHL. And that's only due to Lou's injury last year, along with the fact Cory was playing amazing during that stretch. But can he handle the workload of 50-60 games a year, plus playoffs? With Lou, we have a goaltender that has been considered among the top goalies in the world for years now. He has a proven resume, Vezina nominations, Jennings trophy, Olympic gold, SCF appearance, records for shots against and saves in a single season. He's been there and done that. Minus winning that championship. Which a lot of people would put solely on Lou's shoulders. However, I think it's common knowledge that without him, we would have lost a 3rd consecutive year to Chicago, and the team would likely have been blown up. Instead, he stood on his head in that game 7, under arguably the most pressure he's ever been under, and prevailed. He then made relatively easy work of Nashville and proceeded to walk all over San Jose. Then comes Boston. He had 2 shutouts in that series. But what is discussed more are the goals that he let in. And yes, he's expected to make those saves, but the team is expected not to hang him out to dry. There were some awful plays made in defensive situations that led directly to those goals. I believe it is truly our offence that cost us that series. 8 goals in a 7 game SCF simply does not cut it. Boston scored as many goals in one game as we did in one series. A predictable PP did nothing to help the matter here. But we had to score more, and that is where we ultimately failed. Had we been able to score, that series never would have gone to 7 games.

Same goes for LA last year, Lou wasn't awful, our defence was, and he got pulled in favour of Cory. Fine. Cory stood on his head, but we were still eliminated. Because we couldn't score more goals than the other team.

So, I went on more than I wanted to. This is the conclusion I wanted to make. With the team we have, I think our best bet is to attempt to win now. The dilemma then becomes, do we keep both goalies and go with whoever is playing better at the time? Or do we trade one for something that will put us over the top? If we take the trade route, given his age and potential, I think Cory would bring a better return. And we are not limited to where he can go. Lou has the NTC, so there is a limited market there, given the limited number of teams he would accept a move to. Cory does not have that luxury, so we could find the absolute best deal available and pull the trigger. I want to go on record as saying that I am not a huge fan of trading away a potential franchise goalie who I believe is only 26? But if that gives us the best chance to bring home a Cup now, then I say do it. If we could improve the team that much by trading Cory, we'd be contending not only this year, but for the next few years as well. I want to win now, and I think Lou gives us the best chance to do so.
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#10 Edlerberry

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

Cory Schneider's early "lapse" simply states that he's got things to learn, and of course he does, he's a new goalie to a market where Goalies get scrutinized more than a criminal.


Air India Flight 182
"Investigation and prosecution lasting almost 20 years made this the most expensive trial in Canadian history, costing nearly CAD $130 million."

I'd say both criminals AND goaltenders are scrutinized heavily here!
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July 7-2013

Toronto will take a step back next year.
Feel free to quote me.


July 8-2013

Wow I can't believe peoples replies...
Im done here. You people are disgusting..


#11 Fred65

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:45 PM

The future for the Canucks is an interesting subject

Some of the points to be addressed as best possible is how long will the Sedins play and how much of the new Cap will they consume

With the immediate future looking poor positioning at the amateur draft how will we keep a competitive team

Is the Pro scouting doing a good job regarding traded players. eg Ballard, Booth, Bernier, Sturm. ( Ballard may be OK now but we've had him for 3 years )

With lack of high end skill coming in the draft will MG have a new model to follow
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#12 dorrcoq

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:49 PM

We are only 2 years removed from a Cup finals appearance, and have as good a team, arguably better.


Is anyone but you taking that side in the argument? This team is not close to the team of two years ago.
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#13 Mike Vanderhoek

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:52 PM

Canucks management is deciding the future of the franchise on a daily basis. The team has been built and is always building towards being a contender year in and year out.

From what management has stated in the past the team is not going to go down the fire sale / rebuild route and is not of consideration lol. The team is built and being tailored to be a contending team every season and this is possible. Think Detroit for example.
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#14 elvis15

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

I feel like we had this same thread (but with lots of research) yesterday...

http://forum.canucks...tistics-inside/

But he cleverly disguises this Luongo vs Schneider trade discussion as about management and the future of this franchise rather than the formula needed for success!

But no, plenty of threads talking management and/or our goalies - I'll give the OP that he references a fire sale as a probability as something we haven't seen on the forums in awhile.
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#15 Elliot

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

Is anyone but you taking that side in the argument? This team is not close to the team of two years ago.


I'm not sure. I honestly feel that way, if this team is playing to its potential. How are they "not close" exactly? Because, at least on paper, we have become better. We have gained valuable experience. They may not be performing at the level of a couple years ago, but what I meant is that they are certainly capable of doing so, even surpassing it.
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#16 DownUndaCanuck

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:04 PM

Pretty simple to me.

Keep Luongo, trade Schneider, then have Lack replace Luongo. Their primes match perfectly, Luongo is still in his early 30's - Brodeur and Thomas are far older than he and still playing better than most young guys in the league. Believe it or not Lu still has another solid 5-6 seasons in him, by which time Lack should be hitting his prime.

Eddie Lack is not ready to be a backup goalie in this league as many think, and he's taken a step back this year with injuries. He's yet to play a full AHL season. Give him 2 more seasons in the AHL before he's at Schneider's level when he broke into the NHL, then a couple of seasons as an NHL backup and then slowly wean him into more games. After 4 or 5 years, he and Luongo will be a great tandem - both play a very similar game style so Lu will be a true mentor for him.

Schneider is the odd one out here - if we trade Luongo we end up with 2 great goalies who will hit their prime around the same time, and have another "goalie controversey" of who will be traded, Schneider or Lack (not to mention Climie).

In terms of timing, Luongo-Lack makes more sense than Schneider-Lack. Trade Schneider.
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#17 the grinder

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:05 PM

first in our division 2 president trophys and we need a fire sale , who are you? mike keenan or messier ugh i am having flashbacks of the dark days
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#18 Coconuts

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:22 PM

The fact that you even mention the possibility of trading the Sedin twins is sad.

They'll retire Canucks unless they decide they don't want to.
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#19 rawkdrummer

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

Start a rebuild, seriously?
We're trying for the cup, isn't that what it's all about.
When has Detroit ever gone into rebuild mode... 20 years ago?
Rebuild is for the teams in Alberta!
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#20 gurn

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:31 PM

The " window" is closing.
Sedins are older and appear to be slowing down, at least so far.
Kesler is getting older and perhaps more brittle.
Raymond is proving to not be a top tier, top 6 forward.
An arguement could be made that Booth is not a top tier guy either.
Malhotra's devestating eye injury has turned him from solid 2 way 3rd line penalty killing center that was great on face-offs into a win the face- off and get off the ice specialist.
Lappierre(sp) seems to be sliding back towards the bad penalty at bad times player.
The power play breakout seems to be well known throughout the league and is thus less effective.
Higgins is off to a slow start.

That is most of the bad news.
Good news is:

Kassian has looked good, even though it is early.
Depth in goal and possible trade of a goalie can fill holes
The team is more experienced
defensive depth is better than in the past, with Tanev and Garrisson.

This is a key year and if the team fails in the play offs in may well be time to reload.
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#21 Edlerberry

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:36 PM

Rebuild is for the teams in Alberta!


Not Calgary... They're going to win now, AND in the future. :frantic:
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July 7-2013

Toronto will take a step back next year.
Feel free to quote me.


July 8-2013

Wow I can't believe peoples replies...
Im done here. You people are disgusting..


#22 spliced

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

You talk a lot about goaltending but scoring in the playoffs is one of the teams biggest issues. Yeah they can trade a goalie for an offensive forward but where is he gonna play? The top two lines are basically already full when healthy.

You have to wonder if the players the team has now can score in the playoffs, but also who is going to be taking over from these guys. How long can Henrik be a #1 Center and who is gonna take over from him. How do you get a #1 center if not through the draft.

With Schneider, Edler, Tanev, Kassian and Jensen they have some of the pieces that atleast give some hope, but without a #1 center it doesn't mean much.
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#23 frazzY

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:21 PM

Lol im a Lu supporter but I also support Schneider, and by no means is he having an early season lapse.. Lol

Mind boggling. Why cant people just accept that we have 2 stellar goalies and leave it at that?
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#24 MLT

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:23 PM

lol at rebuilding a back to back presidents trophy winner...
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#25 Bananas

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

Fire AV
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Hey CDC! Remember this!?

http://forum.canucks...in-this-change/

#26 Kassian

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:28 PM

Gillis should trade Lu and start to shop our main players to keep our team successful in the years to come rather than have a drop off as we did in the late 90's.


This makes virtually no sense. We' re a playoff team. Wait, I don't think you heard. WE'RE A F****** PLAYOFF TEAM. We don' t need to Mike Milbury our team!

Building for the future is great and I'm sure you're excited about the upcoming strong draft class but trading our greatest assets for prospects/picks that wont be fully developed for another 4/5 years would lead us to where the Oilers are now.

I agree we need to trade a goalie albeit not anytime soon, but keeping our foundation is key.

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#27 ForsbergTheGreat

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:57 PM

So, I went on more than I wanted to. This is the conclusion I wanted to make. With the team we have, I think our best bet is to attempt to win now. The dilemma then becomes, do we keep both goalies and go with whoever is playing better at the time? Or do we trade one for something that will put us over the top? If we take the trade route, given his age and potential, I think Cory would bring a better return. And we are not limited to where he can go. Lou has the NTC, so there is a limited market there, given the limited number of teams he would accept a move to. Cory does not have that luxury, so we could find the absolute best deal available and pull the trigger. I want to go on record as saying that I am not a huge fan of trading away a potential franchise goalie who I believe is only 26? But if that gives us the best chance to bring home a Cup now, then I say do it. If we could improve the team that much by trading Cory, we'd be contending not only this year, but for the next few years as well. I want to win now, and I think Lou gives us the best chance to do so.


Why is everyone so conserned about winning the cup now? Does luongo really put us over the edge that much that we are garanteed to win. I think people are putting to much emphasis on counting on a goalie being the deciding factor of whether we win the cup. Not every year the best team is going to win the cup. It has a lot more to do with other factors such as; injuries, player fatigue, and hot streaks. Jonathan Quick was really good last year, but so was his team, dustin brown, kopitar, richards, carter. mitchell, Even the role players brought it up a level. Schneider and Luongo give us realatively the same shot at the cup. Luongo isn't that MUCH (if at all) better than cory. I honestly believe by keeping cory we remain competive for more years to come. What happens if we trade Luo and then Daniel gets cheap shotted again heading into playoffs. You can't go make or break since you don't know what all will happen. I'd far rather this team continue to build to be successful year and year out for the next 10 years.

One thing I do have to point out is you may think Luongo can play as this level till he's 40 but you have to remember He's in a different market than Broduer and Thomas well he already showed its taken its toll and needed a break. As a hockey market goalie it would be extremely mentally draining on the person dealing with the pressure year after year. Luongo has already given this team 6 rough years where the fans go hot and cold on him. That is the big difference between goalies who can still play great when there older, they have no pressure they're still playing in net becuase it's fun. Not many goalies can handle that mental tuffness for that many years. I do think Luongo has the ability to play great for 5-6 more years, just not in vancouver. Florida has a few more benefits than just his wife's family is living there.

Edited by ForsbergTheGreat, 06 February 2013 - 04:00 PM.

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#28 CanuckCup1316

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:23 PM

We arnt there yet. But I dont wont to see us die a slow painfull death like the Flames.
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#29 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

Frack. There's a 'crossroads' for every major player move.

What do GM's generally decide?

To try and not lose players for nothing or at least have a replacement in mind.
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#30 Elliot

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

Why is everyone so conserned about winning the cup now? Does luongo really put us over the edge that much that we are garanteed to win. I think people are putting to much emphasis on counting on a goalie being the deciding factor of whether we win the cup. Not every year the best team is going to win the cup. It has a lot more to do with other factors such as; injuries, player fatigue, and hot streaks. Jonathan Quick was really good last year, but so was his team, dustin brown, kopitar, richards, carter. mitchell, Even the role players brought it up a level. Schneider and Luongo give us realatively the same shot at the cup. Luongo isn't that MUCH (if at all) better than cory. I honestly believe by keeping cory we remain competive for more years to come. What happens if we trade Luo and then Daniel gets cheap shotted again heading into playoffs. You can't go make or break since you don't know what all will happen. I'd far rather this team continue to build to be successful year and year out for the next 10 years.

One thing I do have to point out is you may think Luongo can play as this level till he's 40 but you have to remember He's in a different market than Broduer and Thomas well he already showed its taken its toll and needed a break. As a hockey market goalie it would be extremely mentally draining on the person dealing with the pressure year after year. Luongo has already given this team 6 rough years where the fans go hot and cold on him. That is the big difference between goalies who can still play great when there older, they have no pressure they're still playing in net becuase it's fun. Not many goalies can handle that mental tuffness for that many years. I do think Luongo has the ability to play great for 5-6 more years, just not in vancouver. Florida has a few more benefits than just his wife's family is living there.


Well, first and foremost...I think we've waited long enough, no?

Now, excluding our goalie position, which is probably the strongest in the entire league, the team of forwards and defencemen we have assembled is quite possibly the best Vancouver Canucks team that there has ever been. The twins, Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa, Edler, Hamhuis, Garrison, etc...our core of players that will be vital in a Cup run are in or not far removed from their prime, depending on who you ask. These are the guys that we need major contribution from in order to have post season success. Luongo, albeit for a short period of time, is playing about as good as we've seen from him. Some suggest that working with Allaire during the lockout has really helped his game. Cory is entering his prime, and will be there for approximately the next 10 years. But who knows what the rest of the team will look like by then. The twins will be retired, and if the remaining players I mentioned are still here, they will be past their primes. We would be like when Lou first got here. A so-so team, counting on our goalie to sneak us into the playoffs, by which time he'd be burnt out. While we have a great team assembled in front of our goalie, we need to try and win now. We can't count on our current prospect pool, along with potential future signings or players we trade for to lead us to a Cup. I'm not saying we should trade either goalie, I'm both for and against the idea. I'm saying if we do, I believe Cory would bring a better return. It would give us a chance to load up up front. And if Luo can still perform at a top level for a few years as people expect, with the return we would get from trading Cory, we would be in a position to challenge for one or more Cups in the next 3-5 years. Long story short, we can't count on a future team to get the job done, not knowing what that team will look like, when we have the team to get it done now.
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