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[Trade] Tim Thomas an Islander


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#121 Millerdraft

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:30 AM

They wanted to shut down the back diving contracts after Luongo's deal was signed. However they couldn't do that without invalidating the contracts for Zetterberg, Franzen and Hossa since they were all too similar. If they had done that, it would have also invalidated the games Detroit and Chicago played that past season, and would have denied Chicago the Stanley Cup they just won. Only once the Kovy deal took it a small step further could they draw the line in the sand. For the rest, they had to complain in the CBA negotiations to show just how against them they really were from the start.


I agree w/ you for the most part but Kovalchuk's deal wasn't the tipping point (although they did try to void that contract), imo. Weber, Suter & Parise were the tipping points.

Suddenly these decade long deals were the expected for every tier 1 UFA group. Kovalchuk (youngest UFA 50g guy ever), Suter & Weber, okay maybe, but a 60pt Zach Parise (albeit a stellar two-way player)?! Next year it would've been Getzlaf & Perry on, what, matching 15-year/$125m deals? Stephen Weiss on a 8-year/$52m deal?

This past summer has got to be the NHL's "WTF?!" moment for sure.
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#122 Riviera82

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:04 AM

Thomas is a joke


Disagree.
Thomas might be something of an oddball but he's no joke, he's a damn good goaltender. Lest we forget, he only gave up 8 goals in the 7 games of the 2011 SCF.
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#123 D-Money

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

Thomas said he plans on playing again. He seems to be the kind of guy who will stick by his word.

His goaltending numbers have been outstanding - especially in the playoffs. I'm just glad he's stuck on the Islanders, rather than a team that is ready do some damage.
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#124 elvis15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:01 PM

I agree w/ you for the most part but Kovalchuk's deal wasn't the tipping point (although they did try to void that contract), imo. Weber, Suter & Parise were the tipping points.

Suddenly these decade long deals were the expected for every tier 1 UFA group. Kovalchuk (youngest UFA 50g guy ever), Suter & Weber, okay maybe, but a 60pt Zach Parise (albeit a stellar two-way player)?! Next year it would've been Getzlaf & Perry on, what, matching 15-year/$125m deals? Stephen Weiss on a 8-year/$52m deal?

This past summer has got to be the NHL's "WTF?!" moment for sure.

I can agree that this summer was an escalation of the frequency with which teams took advantage of that, but that was because the CBA was expiring so UFAs in particular wanted to take advantage. The NHL began the discussion after the Luongo deal, recognizing this wasn't a one-off phenomenon (even though three contracts were already signed by that point and it was obvious the reason was to reduce the cap hit artificially).

The NHL had talked about these types of contracts last season before the summer frenzy began, as they'd identified them as a large issue specifically after the Kovy deal. The contract limitations designed to prevent the back-diving contracts weren't only added after this summer's deals were finalized, otherwise I could see your point if it was a reaction to the Suter, Weber and Parise deals.

I do absolutely agree it was going to get worse before it got better, but Detroit having signed Franzen to one of the very first back-diving contracts to reduce his cap hit was a reasonably clear signal that it could be used for almost any level of player.
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#125 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:54 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong. But if the Islanders needed to reach the floor, why not trade a 7th round pick to Montreal when Gomez was signed and pick up his $7 million cap hit? At least they'd get a forward who's already put up 2 points, instead of a goalie who may never show. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Then again it is Garth Snow we're talking about....
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#126 thepedestrian

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong. But if the Islanders needed to reach the floor, why not trade a 7th round pick to Montreal when Gomez was signed and pick up his $7 million cap hit? At least they'd get a forward who's already put up 2 points, instead of a goalie who may never show. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Then again it is Garth Snow we're talking about....


No. And whats with the Garth Snow hate? He's a smart guy.

Scott Gomez would have cost them north of 7million in salary if they traded for him. (between this season & the next) You really think thats a good idea? They could have just signed a better free agent with that money.
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#127 hudson bay rules

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:09 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong. But if the Islanders needed to reach the floor, why not trade a 7th round pick to Montreal when Gomez was signed and pick up his $7 million cap hit? At least they'd get a forward who's already put up 2 points, instead of a goalie who may never show. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Then again it is Garth Snow we're talking about....


If Thomas never plays not only do they not have to pay him or surrender a draft pick they can play with his cap hit in perpetuity.

Edited by hudson bay rules, 08 February 2013 - 08:14 PM.

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#128 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:10 PM

No. And whats with the Garth Snow hate? He's a smart guy.

Scott Gomez would have cost them north of 7million in salary if they traded for him. (between this season & the next) You really think thats a good idea? They could have just signed a better free agent with that money.


But 5 million in cap space for a player that won't show makes better sense?
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#129 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:11 PM

If Thomas never plays not only do they not have to pay him or surrender a draft pick him they can play with his cap hit in perpetuity.


Ok that makes a bit more sense, my apologies.
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#130 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:55 PM

Haha, I called this one months ago. Wouldn't be surprised to see Visnovsky moved next! They no longer need him to hit the floor.

Edit.
His contract expires at the end of this season, so its a cap floor measure for this year only.


Lubomir Visnovsky joins the team. Head Coach Jack Capuano 'It's good to have him back. We had him in the powerplay today right away'.
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#131 vcr1970

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:41 AM

I'm sure the NHL left these loopholes open on purpose so that certain teams could take advantage of them.

And they close any loophoes and apply penalties to teams like Vancouver. What a surprise.


So exactly what loopholes and penalties did they apply to Vancouver? You on your 6 or 7th drink today?
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#132 DownUndaCanuck

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 03:51 AM

Sorry but I don't think Rask is up to playoff-hockey. He's seen no action there, isn't exactly a big-game performer with a star-studded resume and doesn't have much experience to fall back on.

I'll expect him to get shredded later in the season and in the playoffs. This kid still hasn't really handled much mental or physical fatigue - he's never played more than 50 games. Now he'll have to play around 60 or 70 if Boston want to win a cup. Fatigue will get the best of him, and they have no one to fall back on. This Boston defence has holes that several teams have exploited over the last 2 seasons, even during their cup run.
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#133 Dazzle

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:23 PM

Sorry but I don't think Rask is up to playoff-hockey. He's seen no action there, isn't exactly a big-game performer with a star-studded resume and doesn't have much experience to fall back on.

I'll expect him to get shredded later in the season and in the playoffs. This kid still hasn't really handled much mental or physical fatigue - he's never played more than 50 games. Now he'll have to play around 60 or 70 if Boston want to win a cup. Fatigue will get the best of him, and they have no one to fall back on. This Boston defence has holes that several teams have exploited over the last 2 seasons, even during their cup run.


Yeah, I think Rask is heavily overrated too.

Not saying he's not a good goaltender and in no way does it justify that trade involving Kessel (and I believe an additional 1st round pick), he has yet to earn a starter's job.

Bobrovski seems like a 'poor man's Rask' and seem like parallel type goalies.
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#134 Nashi

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:49 PM

A goalie controversy will soon begin in Long Island.
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#135 bd71

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 02:10 PM

Exactly. If anyone thinks that it's a coincidence that Boston is taking advantage of this loophole, think again. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't arranged way back at the BOG meeting.

And now I bet they'll close the loophole next season before any other team can take advantage of it.


I don't know if he made this deal but Peter Chiarelli is an excellent GM. Even if they close the loophole it is a genius move for him to make. That Bruins team will be in the mix for a long time because Chiarelli keeps making astute moves.
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#136 Provost

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:54 PM

And Boston gets out from under his 5 million dollar cap hit.

Meaning they can make their team even more dominant. :sadno:

That team has to be one of the luckiest most in Bettman's pocket teams in the league.


Fixed it for you. Canucks get whacked for having a long term deal that circumvents the cap... the Bruins get a get out of jail free pass on an over 35 contract that should have to count against their cap.

Clear cap circumvention in that Thomas made it clear that he wouldn't be playing, and was suspended.

Edited by Provost, 09 February 2013 - 05:55 PM.

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#137 Provost

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:57 PM

But 5 million in cap space for a player that won't show makes better sense?


Yes... because as has been mentioned a couple of dozen times on this thread, the Islanders NEED to get to the cap FLOOR. This way they do it without having to spend a dime in actual dollars.

You are thinking too much like a Canucks fan when we are always trying to find ways to lower our cap hit.

Since Visnovsky looks like he is showing up, they can push the Thomas cap hit until next year if they want.

Edited by Provost, 09 February 2013 - 05:59 PM.

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#138 Pineapples

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:55 PM

It's Boston, is anyone really surprised they're allowed to get away with this?
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#139 hudson bay rules

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:15 PM

It's Boston, is anyone really surprised they're allowed to get away with this?


The Islanders are the ones getting away with something. The Bruins had to work around Thomas' cap hit.
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#140 Pineapples

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:20 PM

The Islanders are the ones getting away with something. The Bruins had to work around Thomas' cap hit.


Both win. Boston now has 5M more they can spend at the deadline.
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#141 hudson bay rules

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:22 PM

Both win. Boston now has 5M more they can spend at the deadline.


That's what trading a player can do for ya. Open up cap room.
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#142 Pineapples

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:53 PM

That's what trading a player can do for ya. Open up cap room.


Typically yes. But being able to trade a suspended player that already said he will not be playing, shouldn't be allowed.
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#143 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:58 PM

yeah it should be illegal since Thomas is not playing........but of course with the Boston Owner as the chairman, the NHL can't block it, any other team do this and it will blocked......the NHL has proven once again how corrupt and bias they are
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#144 hudson bay rules

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

any other team do this and it will blocked......


please cite one example.

Edited by hudson bay rules, 10 February 2013 - 06:13 PM.

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#145 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

please cite one example.


There are no examples because no GM's would bother because it would be shot down in an instant.
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#146 D-Money

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:45 AM

There are no examples because no GM's would bother because it would be shot down in an instant.


Look up Vladimir Malakhov. Was fairly well-known that he was going to retire, and because of his age, New Jersey would be stuck with the cap hit. So before he filed the papers, Jersey packaged him with a 1st round pick to San Jose for scrubs, just to offload his cap hit.

I'm not really mad about this. In fact, Boston had the most dominant goalie in the league for the last few years, and rather than trading him for helpful pieces that could improve their team, they basically had to offload him for nothing. As a Bruin-hater, that makes me happy.
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#147 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

Look up Vladimir Malakhov. Was fairly well-known that he was going to retire, and because of his age, New Jersey would be stuck with the cap hit. So before he filed the papers, Jersey packaged him with a 1st round pick to San Jose for scrubs, just to offload his cap hit.

I'm not really mad about this. In fact, Boston had the most dominant goalie in the league for the last few years, and rather than trading him for helpful pieces that could improve their team, they basically had to offload him for nothing. As a Bruin-hater, that makes me happy.


Sorry, I was just being a smart ass. :P

But I too like seeing Boston lose something for nothing.
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#148 elvis15

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

Look up Vladimir Malakhov. Was fairly well-known that he was going to retire, and because of his age, New Jersey would be stuck with the cap hit. So before he filed the papers, Jersey packaged him with a 1st round pick to San Jose for scrubs, just to offload his cap hit.

I'm not really mad about this. In fact, Boston had the most dominant goalie in the league for the last few years, and rather than trading him for helpful pieces that could improve their team, they basically had to offload him for nothing. As a Bruin-hater, that makes me happy.

From what I can see on that, he announced his retirement in December of 2015 and then the Devils invited him back to camp in September 2006. The trade was on October 1 and included a conditional 1st (no idea what the conditions were) in return for Jim Fahey and Alexander Korolyuk. Korolyuk was a 30 year old at the time who hadn't played in the NHL since 2003/2004 and the Devils tried to trade him back to the Sharks for a 3rd in Feb 2007, but the league cancelled that deal. Fahey did play a few games for the Devils but was never re-signed.

It looks like San Jose did receive the 1st even though Malakhov never played there, which they then flipped to St. Louis with Ville Nieminen and Jay Barriball for Bill Guerin. The 1st became David Perron. So, the deal became Malakhov and Perron for Fahey and Korolyuk. That certainly sounds more even for San Jose taking the cap hit.

I'd argue that example - while similar - is a little different in that tangible assets were exchanged at least versus just cap hit. In the Thomas trade, he isn't likely to play for the Islanders (much like Malakhov) but nothing for sure is going back the other way because the Islanders see it as a positive they are taking on cap hit without paying any money (opposite to Boston's needs).
  • The pick going along with Malakhov not being dependant on if he plays is penalty/payment for New Jersey because they are offloading him and his cap hit for marginal return.
  • The pick being the only thing coming back for Thomas, and only if he does play (compared to nothing coming back if he doesn't) is certainly a more concerning deal to me as they trade cap hit for nothing and only if it becomes an actual hockey trade do the Islanders have to send anything back in return.

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#149 D-Money

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:37 AM

/\
Yeah - I didn't mean it was exactly the same, only that teams have messed around with "cap hit" trades before.
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#150 elvis15

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:30 AM

/\
Yeah - I didn't mean it was exactly the same, only that teams have messed around with "cap hit" trades before.

Fair enough. I just really don't like that teams can get away with something that should obviously be an issue and will result in a new clause being put in for the next CBA, like wth back-diving contracts. If it's a problem that'll require that kind of reaction (holding up CBA negotiations and extending the lockout), then address it now rather than wait years until then or after multiple instances when it becomes such an abuse that you have to draw the line like the NHL did with Kovy's deal.

Good example though, I certainly hadn't paid attention to the details on that trade when it happened and I took a little time to research it and figure out the details and how it could apply now.
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