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Texas Dad Accused of Murdering Drunk Driver Who Killed Kids


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#31 Monty

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

I can't believe in this day and age with the penalties associated with drunk driving that people would still do it, its not like its hard to call a cab or a friend/relative to pick you up.


Most people are stupid. And young people think they are invinceable.
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Can you imagine drowning AT a KK Rev concert?

  


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#32 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

What this thread proves is that guns are not the problem, it's the humans that have no emotional control that's the problem.
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#33 One one two

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:28 PM

The murder here was the drunk who killed the boys. The drunk's family should get the body back in a box and can do what ever they wish from there. ZERO tolerance for killing while drunk behind the wheel. He should have dragged the frakker out of his vehicle and held him in a nice dark basement for a few years. Post a few youtube videos so his family can see how nice his accommodations are from time to time.


The drunk man's idiocy does not excuse the father's rash actions.

In the heat of the moment, I think a lot of people would do the exact same thing if they had the opportunity. I don't own a gun, so I guess I'd have to choke the guy to death.


A lot of people would, sure, but that argument won't hold up in court... And rightfully so.
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#34 Aladeen

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

Most people are stupid. And young people think they are invinceable.

Sad but true.
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#35 hudson bay rules

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

I can see wanting to kill the driver but surely we are more evolved than that.

And what the frack is with the Huston Texans bit? Who cares? It aint germane.

Edited by hudson bay rules, 12 February 2013 - 02:33 PM.

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#36 literaphile

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

Hey Wetcoaster, if the guy lost his two sons and was very emotional at the time, couldn't there be some leniancy in the sentence since it happened so fast it might've been like he didn't really have control of his actions? I could imagine losing two children, on my own property, would probably get a pretty crazy reaction out of me. Could you call it tresspassing or anything too? I thought in some parts of the US you could actually shoot people that came on your property.


I'm not Wetcoaster, and I don't know much about American law, but in Canada, we have an antiquated defence called "provocation" that is only applicable to murder. If successful, the charge will be reduced to manslaughter. s.232(2) of the Criminal Code outlines the requirements for provocation:
  • the accused must be provoked by a wrongful act or insult;
  • the wrongful act or insult must be sufficient to deprive an ordinary person of the power of self-control;
  • the accused must him/herself be acting in response to the wrongful act or insult on the sudden and before there is time for his/her passion to cool (i.e. regain his/her self-control).
Many argue that provocation is an outdated defence that should be abolished (myself included), but hey, there it is. No idea if something similar exists in any US jurisdictions.
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#37 Monty

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

What this thread proves is that guns are not the problem, it's the humans that have no emotional control that's the problem.


I don't think that's what the thread is proving at all. Cavemen would have bashed their neighbours head in with a stone. While I like to think we have evolved beyond the thinking of cavemen, we are still animals.If I came home to see someone who was raping my wife, I would say with 100% certainty I would end him, if given the choice.If I were this father who just saw a drunk driver murder my children, I can't say that I would react any differently. Does this mean that I shouldn't receive a penalty for my actions? Not at all. What I'm saying is that nobody can say for certain that they would react any differently if put in a similar situation, gun or not.

Edited by Monty, 12 February 2013 - 02:34 PM.

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Can you imagine drowning AT a KK Rev concert?

  


i'm pretty sure that's how zombies are born.


#38 Aladeen

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:34 PM

The drunk man's idiocy does not excuse the father's rash actions.



A lot of people would, sure, but that argument won't hold up in court... And rightfully so.

Legally you are right, but I think most people morally side with the father.... and rightfully so, especially if they have children.
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#39 sedated

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:38 PM

I don't think people are really saying he should be left off the hook for what he did, more that they can understand why he did what he did. I'd agree with a lesser sentence for sure, considering the circumstances at least. You're suppose to feel safe at home. To be around there, and see a family member be killed would be horrible. Can't imagine the family would want to stay at that place when they'd have to remember their children/siblings died right out front or whatever.
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#40 fwybwed

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:39 PM

What he's saying is that while you can empathize with the father, it doesn't excuse what he did. Killing someone when you're really, really mad is still a crime, regardless of what that person did to you. If we let people off because they were getting revenge on someone when they committed a crime, our prisons would be empty.


I can understand that you want to play Devil's advocate just to seem "smart" but in this case a man saw his 2 sons die before him and the man who did it was a drunk behind the wheel with no regard for human life...he killed 2 people...and would have gotten manslaughter...This man not in his right state of mind was in a fit of rage and insanity at losing his 2 sons went out a killed the man responsible for taking his life(2 sons) basically killed part of his life.Please try to be more understanding of the situation and not the ideal of trying to be the one who plays a different side just so you can say "Hey look at me Im different" Only because there are times to do this and this is not one of them. Your argument is weak like the man who killed two boys while DUI
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#41 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:44 PM

If the drunk driver's family really said "He didn't purposely drink and drive.." then they need a kick in the head or something.

Hey Wetcoaster, if the guy lost his two sons and was very emotional at the time, couldn't there be some leniancy in the sentence since it happened so fast it might've been like he didn't really have control of his actions? I could imagine losing two children, on my own property, would probably get a pretty crazy reaction out of me. Could you call it tresspassing or anything too? I thought in some parts of the US you could actually shoot people that came on your property.

You would have to look at the Texas Criminal Code and the case law that interprets the relevant homicide provisions and defences, as well as matters to be taken into account on sentencing.
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#42 pimpcurtly

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

Really tough situation. Even though the father got revenge, it still won't bring his sons back. I also can't say that I blame the father cuz he obviously snapped but he will still have to face some concequences. Just really sad all around.
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#43 Grapes-N-Canucks

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

This situation sucks all around, but guns are not the issue here. The father could have taken the drunken fool out with anything: his hands, pocket knife, bottle, rocks, whatever...If some chucklehead did that to my sons I'd probably do the same, but I'd like to think I wouldn't. Late-
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#44 elvis15

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

No, you're thinking of manslaughter. If I get mad and punch you, and you happen to fall and hit your head and die, but I had no intention of actually taking your life, thats manslaughter. If I get mad and stab you, thats second degree murder.

What you're getting at is it's not premeditated, but whether the time it took to walk to his house, get the gun, return and then shoot the driver was enough time to consider it not completely unpremeditated is another story. If he had the gun in his glove box (or he was carrying if that is allowed where it happened) then it'd be much more reactionary.
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#45 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

I'd consider shooting someone who murdered my children too.

Hey, no guns, no option. Take that, Texas.
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#46 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:19 PM

I don't think that's what the thread is proving at all. Cavemen would have bashed their neighbours head in with a stone. While I like to think we have evolved beyond the thinking of cavemen, we are still animals.If I came home to see someone who was raping my wife, I would say with 100% certainty I would end him, if given the choice.If I were this father who just saw a drunk driver murder my children, I can't say that I would react any differently. Does this mean that I shouldn't receive a penalty for my actions? Not at all. What I'm saying is that nobody can say for certain that they would react any differently if put in a similar situation, gun or not.


I would beat the crap out of anyone if they harmed me or my own, but killing someone does not undo what that person has done.
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#47 Niloc009

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:37 PM

I can understand that you want to play Devil's advocate just to seem "smart" but in this case a man saw his 2 sons die before him and the man who did it was a drunk behind the wheel with no regard for human life...he killed 2 people...and would have gotten manslaughter...This man not in his right state of mind was in a fit of rage and insanity at losing his 2 sons went out a killed the man responsible for taking his life(2 sons) basically killed part of his life.Please try to be more understanding of the situation and not the ideal of trying to be the one who plays a different side just so you can say "Hey look at me Im different" Only because there are times to do this and this is not one of them. Your argument is weak like the man who killed two boys while DUI


No, I'm not trying to sound smart or different. The drunk driver should have spent life rotting in prision. However, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Now, instead of 2 people dead, there's 3. The driver's to blame for hitting the kids while drunk with alcohol, and the father's to blame for shooting the driver while drunk with rage. I understand that the man saw his soms die. But other parents go through a similar situation and don't murder the one responsible for their deaths. There's a justice system for a reason.

Neither action is excusable. Neither action should go without punishment. Both should be held accountable for their actions in their altered state of mind.
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#48 Monty

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:41 PM

I would beat the crap out of anyone if they harmed me or my own, but killing someone does not undo what that person has done.


You're right, it doesn't undo what that person did. But that was never what I was talking about. So...
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Can you imagine drowning AT a KK Rev concert?

  


i'm pretty sure that's how zombies are born.


#49 CrippledCanuck

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:46 PM

although the father did technically commit a crime he just did what eventually the guy would have done and that was remove him from the gene pool. I have never and will never feel sorry for drunk drivers, reckless disregard for your own life is one thing but when you knowingly endanger countless lives and eventually take two innocent lives, you have no excuse. Seems harsh but so is life.
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#50 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

Nothing was solved here. Just adding tragedy to tragedy. Now the mom and sibling have this additional burden.

That's the problem with guns. Makes it too easy to cause permanent damage while under emotional duress.


I was wondering how long it would be before I saw a reasonable post.

As someone who has consistently argued against Capital punishment, I don't see how I can possibly come out and support this father's actions.

Also, as someone who believes that there is more than enough of this "take the law into your own hands" mentality around, I would be physically incapable of ending someone's life, no matter what the provocation.

And I would take issue with anyone who said that it means that I love my children any less because of it.
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#51 D-Money

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:37 PM

This situation sucks all around, but guns are not the issue here. The father could have taken the drunken fool out with anything: his hands, pocket knife, bottle, rocks, whatever...If some chucklehead did that to my sons I'd probably do the same, but I'd like to think I wouldn't. Late-


Most of those methods involve a far more "hands-on", "face-to-face" action, that would give ample opportunity for a person to realize the impact of what he is doing. However, guns keep it distant and expedient.
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#52 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:43 PM

I was wondering how long it would be before I saw a reasonable post.

As someone who has consistently argued against Capital punishment, I don't see how I can possibly come out and support this father's actions.

Also, as someone who believes that there is more than enough of this "take the law into your own hands" mentality around, I would be physically incapable of ending someone's life, no matter what the provocation.

And I would take issue with anyone who said that it means that I love my children any less because of it.

Precisely and to term these tragic deaths of the children as "murder" is completely over the top.

The charge in Texas would most likely be


Sec. 49.08. INTOXICATION MANSLAUGHTER.

(a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) operates a motor vehicle in a public place, operates an aircraft, a watercraft, or an amusement ride, or assembles a mobile amusement ride; and

(2) is intoxicated and by reason of that intoxication causes the death of another by accident or mistake.


(B) Except as provided by Section 49.09, an offense under this section is a felony of the second degree.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.49.htm

In Canada the charge would likely be impaired driving causing death and it can attract a range of sentences depending upon the particular facts and circumstances.
http://www.madd.ca/m...ework_FINAL.pdf
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#53 Dion Phaneuf

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:45 PM

He's guility...however many of us would have done the same thing in the heat of the moment.
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#54 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:52 PM

He's guility...however many of us would have done the same thing in the heat of the moment.

Hopefully very few.
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#55 D-Money

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:52 PM

I was wondering how long it would be before I saw a reasonable post.

As someone who has consistently argued against Capital punishment, I don't see how I can possibly come out and support this father's actions.

Also, as someone who believes that there is more than enough of this "take the law into your own hands" mentality around, I would be physically incapable of ending someone's life, no matter what the provocation.

And I would take issue with anyone who said that it means that I love my children any less because of it.


Good post.

The world is full of wrongs, and you will eventually get severely wronged in some way. Will you lash out and perpetuate the cycle? Or will you accept what you cannot change, and make the best out of the situation? How you react shows if you're part of the problem, or part of the solution.

Of course, some situations are more difficult than others. I feel for the father, because this was truly extreme...but now, because of his actions, I feel even worse for the additional burdens he put on his wife, his surviving children, the family of the young man he shot, etc., etc...

Also, protecting myself or my family from imminent harm is one thing. But besides that, I would rather die than live with myself after cold-heartedly take another man's life.

I don't know why so many people think that killing someone would be easy to do, and then something they can just shake off. Desensitized by the media? Maybe...
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#56 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

Good post.

The world is full of wrongs, and you will eventually get severely wronged in some way. Will you lash out and perpetuate the cycle? Or will you accept what you cannot change, and make the best out of the situation? How you react shows if you're part of the problem, or part of the solution.

Of course, some situations are more difficult than others. I feel for the father, because this was truly extreme...but now, because of his actions, I feel even worse for the additional burdens he put on his wife, his surviving children, the family of the young man he shot, etc., etc...

Also, protecting myself or my family from imminent harm is one thing. But besides that, I would rather die than live with myself after cold-heartedly take another man's life.

I don't know why so many people think that killing someone would be easy to do, and then something they can just shake off. Desensitized by the media? Maybe...

Absolutely.

And it seems many confuse vengeance with justice.
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#57 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:59 PM

I don't know why so many people think that killing someone would be easy to do, and then something they can just shake off. Desensitized by the media? Maybe...


I honestly believe that the vast majority of people would find it far easier to say than to actually do.

I personally cannot imagine pointing a weapon at someone and ending his life. Faced with the reality of doing so, I'm confident that I would find it an outright impossibility.

I'm sure that my sentiments would have some people considering me some sort of pacifist, but that's not necessarily the case.

As a guy who played Junior hockey in the early 80's and worked as a bouncer in the 90s, I've been in more than my share of fights. The difference was, after delivering "shots" to a guy with my fists, I knew he'd eventually walk away from whatever damage I was able to do...

Edited by RUPERTKBD, 12 February 2013 - 05:01 PM.

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#58 D-Money

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:07 PM

I honestly believe that the vast majority of people would find it far easier to say than to actually do.

I personally cannot imagine pointing a weapon at someone and ending his life. Faced with the reality of doing so, I'm confident that I would find it an outright impossibility.

I'm sure that my sentiments would have some people considering me some sort of pacifist, but that's not necessarily the case.

As a guy who played Junior hockey in the early 80's and worked as a bouncer in the 90s, I've been in more than my share of fights. The difference was, after delivering "shots" to a guy with my fists, I knew he'd eventually walk away from whatever damage I was able to do...


Interestingly, in World War 1, this was a common "problem". They trained and armed the soldiers, sent them to fight, and...many times they seemed to seize up, or deliberately miss.

How did they fix this? The army (among other institutions) switched from using bulls-eye targets to the ones shaped like a person. That way the hours of target-practice slowly eroded their inborn resistance to shooting at something human. By the time the next war came around, accuracy increased greatly. Of course, this only made the actual act of killing more efficient and expedient; it certainly didn't reduce the long-term emotional damage done to those pulling the triggers.

I think realistic video games involving killing take this desensitization to a whole new level. A lot of people are fooled into thinking it's something that, if pressured, they could do easily, and walk away from unscathed.
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#59 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:17 PM

You're right, it doesn't undo what that person did. But that was never what I was talking about. So...


So... What will killing him gain anyone then?
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#60 Crom!

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

If I had children and someone murdered them in front of me, I'd murder that person too. Go ahead and call it barbaric, I wouldn't care.
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