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Toughness proves to be a winning formula


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#121 Salmonberries

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:43 AM

Gillis won't be adding toughness for the playoffs. His purpose is to prove that you don't need it to win in the playoffs. He will rely, once again, despite bitter experience, on the officials to protect his players.
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#122 Understand

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:07 PM

Gillis won't be adding toughness for the playoffs. His purpose is to prove that you don't need it to win in the playoffs. He will rely, once again, despite bitter experience, on the officials to protect his players.


if that's the case, good luck Gillis.
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#123 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:00 PM

I hope you're right, but my gut says Gillis has found religion as a hockey pacifist and won't do anything to protect his key players in spite of direct personal experience that screams that he should.

Again, I really hope that I'm wrong here. Been a Canuck fan since the Lester Patrick Cup days of the late sixties.


Sick of watching this team not fight back for each other. MArchand Keith etc..... Luongo run last game, no pushback, same old same old. its a joke.

When you start talking 'tough' many fans quickly equate that with fighting. It might be part of the equation but is far from the total answer. You ID'd Kassian as the only top 9 forward who is legit tough. I might add Kesler and Burrows to that list but IMO they're a little light to be risking their skillset on playing to physical a role. Kust the other night they were talking about Kesler's list of injuries and that he had to change his style or risk his career. Burrows has changed his game but had to. He was injured two playoffs running.

No it isn't all about fighting. Physical teams are hard on the puck and yes they also finish checks. It is a tough game to play thru 82 games and then a potential 24 game playoff stretch. Attrition is a factor. Physical players can take out finess players and suffer injury themselves. They create space for their own finess players. 180 to 190 pound players have a tough time playing physical hockey against 200 to 220 pound players. Championship teams have the ability to elevate their physical play when it counts. It is no mistake when you see finess players disappear during playoffs.

IMHO the Canucks are no where near big or physical enough as their roster sits. AV has been flirting with a physical game with the Minnie game last week as close as I have seen to success. I am not sayin that Van cannot win playing a transition possession game but the odds would be better with a better physical component. As much as I like these players they do not bring enough of a physical edge to be on a CUP challenging team: Weise, Raymond, Schroeder, Ebbett and even Higgens. Not suggesting that all these players have to go but I suggest three do.

agree, we need to get way bigger.

We need this guy on our team
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM58vqIaK2Q

In all seriousness, I agree. It's time to fight fire with fire. We need that intimidation factor so that our skilled players feel safe and not need to worry about players like that midget rat face Marchand using the Sedins as punching bags. We can't have Burrows, Kesler, and Bieksa just to name a few, gooning it up. We need them on the ice and not in the box. We have overall team toughness but have seen that time and time again it doesn't seem to cut it in the playoffs. Im ok with Volpatti and Weise but they need to be rotated in and out of the lineup depending on who we face. I will feel alot better going into the playoffs knowing that the team is better prepared for the Bruins and bigger teams like the Sharks and Blues. I will lose my mind if we get gooned up in the playoffs again and do nothing about it. Parros would have been perfect or a player of his nature... oh well, hopefully Gillis brings in this "missing piece" or we're just going to get pushed around again in the playoffs.

Something to read into:
http://www.torontosu...-top-tough-guys


get ready for our stars to get run unanswered . kumbaya Canucks. like a broken record. every year the same.
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Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#124 Understand

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:05 PM

Orr, McLaren, and the Leafs fought their way to another victory.....
Ever since the Leafs dresses all their tougness in the lineup (Orr, McLaren, Fraser, Brown), the Leafs have looked like the Bruins!
With Orr, McLaren, Fraser, Brown + guys like Phaneuf, Franson, Kostka etc, no one can push the Leafs around now....
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#125 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:45 AM

Gillis won't be adding toughness for the playoffs. His purpose is to prove that you don't need it to win in the playoffs. He will rely, once again, despite bitter experience, on the officials to protect his players.


Come playoffs we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot. In all due respect Hordichuk, Rypien (rip) weren't elite enforcers and neither is Volpatti and Weise. We haven't had a real heavyweight enforcer since Brashear!!! The fans deserve a little excitement. Gillis will know what to do when the time comes.

Edited by Brazen_Slugger, 19 February 2013 - 01:55 AM.

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#126 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:19 AM

This is why you have to get guys who can play.

Not goons, otherwise they can do stupid things that can cost you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHrhRrwmg_0

Everyone wants to get Troy Brouwer, to add this major jolt of toughness.

But he only has 1 fight in his entire playoff career, and it was against Kevin Bieksa in a blowout game, and it wasn't even a fight, it was more like a scrum with punches being thrown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4RplvyCgHw

Playoff toughness isn't what you guys think it is, and we don't lack it when compared to most teams other than the Bruins.


So what happens again if we meet them in the finals? They'll take liberties on the Sedins... again :picard: We already match up with them in skill. But toughness? It's a different game in the playoffs. Bringing in a high caliber enforcer won't hurt us. The coaches and management will have a sit down and talk to the player about their role on the team. With a winning team like ours, they'll think twice before taking dumb penalties. We all know the Canucks are the most hated team in the NHL so why not give other teams a reason to hate us even more :bigblush:

Edited by Brazen_Slugger, 19 February 2013 - 02:21 AM.

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#127 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:26 AM

So what happens again if we meet them in the finals? They'll take liberties on the Sedins... again :picard: We already match up with them in skill. But toughness? It's a different game in the playoffs. Bringing in a high caliber enforcer won't hurt us. The coaches and management will have a sit down and talk to the player about their role on the team. With a winning team like ours, they'll think twice before taking dumb penalties. We all know the Canucks are the most hated team in the NHL so why not give other teams a reason to hate us even more :bigblush:


Brouwer isn't an enforcer, hes not the guy that is going to do that stuff and the 250 pounds guys that cant skate rarely get any time in the playoffs, we have Volpatti and we have Kassian, this team in general has muscle we just never chose to us it, its more of a culture change although if something happens we do have a few guys, not to mention we have Vandermeer waiting in the wings who is more than capable of standing up for teammates.
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#128 Primus099

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:33 AM

Canucks tougness is far superior to the leafs at least canucks can score hit unlike the leafs which can do all three


lol dude sorry but in a physical battle i'd take the Leafs over ours any day, Colton Orr could beat the s--t out of any guy on our team
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#129 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:05 AM

Brouwer isn't an enforcer, hes not the guy that is going to do that stuff and the 250 pounds guys that cant skate rarely get any time in the playoffs, we have Volpatti and we have Kassian, this team in general has muscle we just never chose to us it, its more of a culture change although if something happens we do have a few guys, not to mention we have Vandermeer waiting in the wings who is more than capable of standing up for teammates.


I never said we should get Brouwer :blink: I said we needed a legit high caliber enforcer. You misinterpreted what I meant. And who cares if they don't play that many minutes, the less the better. Our team is deep enough for this to not matter. Heck, Volpatti and Weise play an average of 5-6 mins a game! (correct me if I'm wrong) We need that intimidating presence so that other teams think twice about going after our skilled players. How many minutes did Shawn Thornton play against us in the SCF? Not whole lot. But hey, give him credit, he played his role well and now he's a goon with a Stanley Cup ring. Playoffs is all about knowing your role and executing it. The players we currently have playing the roles as enforcers, aren't really well suited for that task.

Edited by Brazen_Slugger, 19 February 2013 - 03:08 AM.

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#130 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:25 AM

I never said we should get Brouwer :blink: I said we needed a legit high caliber enforcer. You misinterpreted what I meant. And who cares if they don't play that many minutes, the less the better. Our team is deep enough for this to not matter. Heck, Volpatti and Weise play an average of 5-6 mins a game! (correct me if I'm wrong) We need that intimidating presence so that other teams think twice about going after our skilled players. How many minutes did Shawn Thornton play against us in the SCF? Not whole lot. But hey, give him credit, he played his role well and now he's a goon with a Stanley Cup ring. Playoffs is all about knowing your role and executing it. The players we currently have playing the roles as enforcers, aren't really well suited for that task.


It's not so much about how many minutes they play, its if they play at all. Thornton didn't dress for the 1st two games.

And Brouwer was just someone who has been thrown around alot, I apologize, I didn't mean neccisarily thats who you want.

The key is getting guys who can fight, exc. And can play. I think we have that in Volpatti and Kassian, even Vandermeer (although I have concerns about his skating) nonetheless I think we have our Thornton guy in Vandy myself, I don't see the need to go out and grab another one. Unless they can play the game and add a valuable component to the roster aswell.
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#131 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:54 AM

It's not so much about how many minutes they play, its if they play at all. Thornton didn't dress for the 1st two games.

And Brouwer was just someone who has been thrown around alot, I apologize, I didn't mean neccisarily thats who you want.

The key is getting guys who can fight, exc. And can play. I think we have that in Volpatti and Kassian, even Vandermeer (although I have concerns about his skating) nonetheless I think we have our Thornton guy in Vandy myself, I don't see the need to go out and grab another one. Unless they can play the game and add a valuable component to the roster aswell.


You said it so yourself. As soon as they inserted Thornton in the lineup the Canucks folded and the Bruins eventually rallied back to win the Stanley Cup. If you bully the Canucks you will win. Hopefully Gillis adapts and end this madness.

Edited by Brazen_Slugger, 19 February 2013 - 04:01 AM.

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#132 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:36 AM

It's not so much about how many minutes they play, its if they play at all. Thornton didn't dress for the 1st two games.

And Brouwer was just someone who has been thrown around alot, I apologize, I didn't mean neccisarily thats who you want.

The key is getting guys who can fight, exc. And can play. I think we have that in Volpatti and Kassian, even Vandermeer (although I have concerns about his skating) nonetheless I think we have our Thornton guy in Vandy myself, I don't see the need to go out and grab another one. Unless they can play the game and add a valuable component to the roster aswell.


Yep. Not sure why folks orgasm over guys that do not add but one dimension to the team.

Hard nose players that can do it all is what is needed for any team.
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#133 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:24 AM

Yep. Not sure why folks orgasm over guys that do not add but one dimension to the team.

Hard nose players that can do it all is what is needed for any team.


This team is already full of hard nosed players. That one dimension that you think is slightly overrated on CDC is actually the final piece to the puzzle. The facts are abundantly clear. There is no doubt in my mind that without the proper enforcer, the Canucks will be looking at another similar end to their season when they reached the SCF.
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#134 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:32 AM

This team is already full of hard nosed players. That one dimension that you think is slightly overrated on CDC is actually the final piece to the puzzle. The facts are abundantly clear. There is no doubt in my mind that without the proper enforcer, the Canucks will be looking at another similar end to their season when they reached the SCF.


Wont happen.

Thank god.

Wonder what Chicago is gonna do?
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#135 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:52 AM

We can all see what this team is lacking, how can you be so naive :picard: . I stand by my beliefs, and whether or not you agree or disagree, the Canucks will suffer the consequences if they don't acquire this key component that most NHL Stanley Cup winning teams have already done. The game is evolving and players are faster and stronger. And although It might not seem necessary to you, It is to the Canucks. The Sedins will be targeted constantly. If you can shut the Sedins down, then most likely you'll win. Think about it <_<
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#136 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:10 AM

We can all see what this team is lacking, how can you be so naive :picard: . I stand by my beliefs, and whether or not you agree or disagree, the Canucks will suffer the consequences if they don't acquire this key component that most NHL Stanley Cup winning teams have already done. The game is evolving and players are faster and stronger. And although It might not seem necessary to you, It is to the Canucks. The Sedins will be targeted constantly. If you can shut the Sedins down, then most likely you'll win. Think about it <_<


So to summarize you're 100% right we're 100% wrong blah, blah, blah... Then you go on to say MOST (not all) Stanley cup winning teams have acquired this piece. Seems like a contradiction there. Fact is there nearly NO fighting in the playoffs and with the additions of Zack, and Vandermeer to our group that already includes gritty guys who will fight in Volpatti,Weise,Beiksa,Ballard,Lapierre and gritty guys who probably won't fight in Kesler,Burrows,Hansen we have absolutely no need for a useless plug to only fill one role that he won't even have to fill in the playoffs. When the Sedins get targeted switch Burr and Kass let big Zack tell the opposition that bullying the twins isn't gunna be tolerated and then go back to playing hockey.
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#137 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:16 AM

Anyone who thinks have a 5 minute pugilist on the 4th line is gunna stop whatever line is playing 18-20+ minutes against the twins is delusional. You need someone who can play 18-20 minutes with the twins to protect them. And Gillis got him already, he's even shown success early in the season playing on their line.
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#138 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions but we need Kassian on the ice putting up points. Having a 5+ min "pugilist" on the 4th line will keep other teams in check. As much as I know Kassian is more than capable of protecting the Sedins, wouldn't you want that pugilist available when other teams do decide to muck things up with their own goon? I don't know if you've been watching us in the playoffs, but it's a war out there. And the blueprint to winning against the Canucks have been exposed. We need that someone to address that issue. You'll come around :rolleyes:
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#139 Rypien37

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:34 AM

Anyone who thinks have a 5 minute pugilist on the 4th line is gunna stop whatever line is playing 18-20+ minutes against the twins is delusional. You need someone who can play 18-20 minutes with the twins to protect them. And Gillis got him already, he's even shown success early in the season playing on their line.


Except we already have 5 minute pugilists on the 4th line.......just not very good ones.

Also Burrows has been put back with the Twins. Even if Kassian moves back into 1st line spot, any mistake he mistakes AV will switch him out. This is been the case so far this year.
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#140 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

Except we already have 5 minute pugilists on the 4th line.......just not very good ones.

Also Burrows has been put back with the Twins. Even if Kassian moves back into 1st line spot, any mistake he mistakes AV will switch him out. This is been the case so far this year.


This.
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#141 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:41 AM

Except we already have 5 minute pugilists on the 4th line.......just not very good ones.

Also Burrows has been put back with the Twins. Even if Kassian moves back into 1st line spot, any mistake he mistakes AV will switch him out. This is been the case so far this year.


Yeah except they're not pugilist, Volpatti and Weise can both skate hard and check and match up against other teams 4th and 3rd lines without getting constantly scored on. Having a John Scott on that line makes that line a liability

Kass wasn't moved off that line because of his mistakes, he was moved off to kick start our scoring more and balance out the lines. Even if they want to keep Burr there and play Kass there after penalty kills he can still let the other team know liberties will not be accepted. What's a John Scott or Coltan Orr gunna do against other teams top checking lines when they'll never play against them...
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#142 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:49 AM

This.


Maybe you should look up Volpattis fight against Andy Sutton, or Brad Winchester even Matt Belesky. The guys played 40 NHL games he's won some fights and lost some like every fighter in the NHL. And he can fill in on the 3rd line or PK (only when necessary) John Scott could never do that
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#143 Boudrias

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:55 AM

We can all see what this team is lacking, how can you be so naive :picard: . I stand by my beliefs, and whether or not you agree or disagree, the Canucks will suffer the consequences if they don't acquire this key component that most NHL Stanley Cup winning teams have already done. The game is evolving and players are faster and stronger. And although It might not seem necessary to you, It is to the Canucks. The Sedins will be targeted constantly. If you can shut the Sedins down, then most likely you'll win. Think about it <_<

I think the game has passed by players like Brashear a long time ago. By the same token many fans equate Thorton and Eager as mindless fighters. Both are more than capable of playing the game as well as handling any direct physical challenges. There is no gurantee that physical players can win a series, sometimes finess can win. More often than not it is a combination with a coach who knows how to blend the two. In Boston's case Van finess was beating them badly and the Bruins had no option.

The unique thing about Rypien from a Vancouver perspective was he sought out fights when he first came up. His game was never fully developed. Physically he could not continue fighting players 30 to 40 pounds heavier.

At the beginning of the season AV talked about a more balanced attack with the 3rd and 4th lines playing more minutes. If the 4th line is to accomplish that and retain a physical ability it requires a quality forward. As much as I like Weise there might be better options. AV is giving him PK duty which boosts his minutes but I reserve judgement on his role. I actually think he has 3rd line ability in his future but probably not with the Canucks.
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#144 Rypien37

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:56 AM

@Wondertwinpowers

Volpatti has ONE goal in each of his 3 seasons with the Canuck's. He only had TWO goals in almost a full season in the AHL....

Weise has 1 point this year and had 8 all of last year.

I actually think Patti is a great fighter, but a light/middle weight who is not able to handle the heavies of the league.

Andy Sutton may be huge, but he is far from an established fighter, beaten in almost every fight with a legitimate opponent. Brad Winchester is also no goon, a decent fighter but nothing special. Belesky is the same size as Patti and is fighting because that is the only way he stays up with the big club (was not a fighter previously, low PIMS, look up his stats).

If you are going to ice an enforcer, might as well ice one of the biggest and baddest that has the ability to intimidate and act as a deterrent.

Edited by Rypien37, 19 February 2013 - 10:57 AM.

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#145 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:19 AM

@Wondertwinpowers

Volpatti has ONE goal in each of his 3 seasons with the Canuck's. He only had TWO goals in almost a full season in the AHL....

Weise has 1 point this year and had 8 all of last year.

I actually think Patti is a great fighter, but a light/middle weight who is not able to handle the heavies of the league.

Andy Sutton may be huge, but he is far from an established fighter, beaten in almost every fight with a legitimate opponent. Brad Winchester is also no goon, a decent fighter but nothing special. Belesky is the same size as Patti and is fighting because that is the only way he stays up with the big club (was not a fighter previously, low PIMS, look up his stats).

If you are going to ice an enforcer, might as well ice one of the biggest and baddest that has the ability to intimidate and act as a deterrent.


Yeah but my argument is to not ice someone strictly as an enforcer, Volpatti and Weise are actual hockey players not enforcers and can PK and can give you 8-10 minutes of play without being a liability. And still stand up for teammates and bring energy.

You claim we need a heavyweight a Chris Neil or David Clarkson, who are both THE EXACT same size as Patti and Weise.

And you make it sound like Patti's got 1 goal in 3 full seasons he's got 3 goals in 50 games and 1 assist (which was actually pretty nice), not that bad for a 4th liner. As for Weise 8 points in his first full NHL season as a 4th liner... Also pretty good. How many points you think John Scott would add in that scenario?

Edited by WonderTwinPowers, 19 February 2013 - 11:25 AM.

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#146 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:23 AM

Double double

Edited by WonderTwinPowers, 19 February 2013 - 11:24 AM.

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#147 Rypien37

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:28 AM

Yeah but my argument is to not ice someone strictly as an enforcer, Volpatti and Weise are actual hockey players not enforcers and can PK and can give you 8-10 minutes of play without being a liability. And still stand up for teammates and bring energy.

You claim we need a heavyweight a Chris Neil or David Clarkson, who are both THE EXACT same size as Patti and Weise.

And you make it sound like Patti's got 1 goal in 3 full seasons he's got 3 goals in 50 games and 1 assist (which was actually pretty nice), not that bad for a 4th liner. As for Weise 8 points in his first full NHL season as a 4th liner... Also pretty good. How many points you think John Scott would add in that scenario?


I never said we needed a Neil or Clarkson, and it would take way too much to get them. That would be a luxury at this point.

Also Patti doesn't skill penalties. He brings to the table the same things a guy like Parros or Orr (who btw played over 10 minutes last night in the Leafs win) which is hitting and fighting, nothing else. He also plays the exact amount of time as these "goons" you are so against having, averaging 4-8 minutes this year.

Yes, Weise is a little bit of a better player, who has put up good numbers in the minors, but it has not translated here. Sure he is fast, but a horrible fighter and average hitter at best.

Edited by Rypien37, 19 February 2013 - 11:29 AM.

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#148 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:51 AM

I never said we needed a Neil or Clarkson, and it would take way too much to get them. That would be a luxury at this point.

Also Patti doesn't skill penalties. He brings to the table the same things a guy like Parros or Orr (who btw played over 10 minutes last night in the Leafs win) which is hitting and fighting, nothing else. He also plays the exact amount of time as these "goons" you are so against having, averaging 4-8 minutes this year.

Yes, Weise is a little bit of a better player, who has put up good numbers in the minors, but it has not translated here. Sure he is fast, but a horrible fighter and average hitter at best.


My bad if you didn't bring up Clarkson or Neil, I'm having 2 debates in two threads that should really be merged. The bring a real heavyweight thread right below this one. My apologies

Patti doesn't kill penalties but if he had to due to injuries it wouldn't be the end of the world. As opposed to Orr (Parros might not be to horrible at it). I'd like a Parros but he won't be had for cheap, and an Orr won't be traded because the leafs are winning.

As for Weise he's not the greatest fighter but he still stands up for his team mates and brings energy. And 8 points in less then 82 games as a first year 4th liner is actually pretty good.and he can play on the 3rd line when necessary, I wouldn't want Coltan Orr or George Parros to have to play on our 3rd line if an injury occurred. And we'd pretty much have to waive Weise to bring in a Parros since Weise is most likely to be our new extra forward with Booth coming back.

Plus no one on this board mentions we have Vandermeer biding his time in the minors until he's called up for the playoffs. He's pretty versatile as a Dman or forward

I just don't see the need to bring in another fighter

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#149 Understand

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:17 PM

Except we already have 5 minute pugilists on the 4th line.......just not very good ones.

Also Burrows has been put back with the Twins. Even if Kassian moves back into 1st line spot, any mistake he mistakes AV will switch him out. This is been the case so far this year.


VERY TRUE! If we are going to waste a spot on 5 min pugilists like Weise or Volplatti, why not waste it on guys like Orr, Parros? Guys like Orr, Eager etc can stake as fast as Weise or Volplatti, but they can also fight and hit HEAVY! If you are trying to argue that Weise or Volplatti have better hands than Orr or other legit tough guys, you better back it up with statisitcs.
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#150 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

VERY TRUE! If we are going to waste a spot on 5 min pugilists like Weise or Volplatti, why not waste it on guys like Orr, Parros? Guys like Orr, Eager etc can stake as fast as Weise or Volplatti, but they can also fight and hit HEAVY! If you are trying to argue that Weise or Volplatti have better hands than Orr or other legit tough guys, you better back it up with statisitcs.


Ummm okay. In his first full season (rookie) last year (78 games) Weise had nearly half as many points 8, as Coltan Orr has had his entire NHL career (350+games)which is 20 same for Parros (420 games 30 points)

In the AHL Weise has
111 points in 194 games

Parros
32 points in 134 games

Coltan Orr
15 points in 152 games

There you go statistics. If you still think he doesn't have better hands then you're just being ignorant of the stats. Ontop of this Weise is 24, and going to get better. Orr and Parros are 30 plus and are going to regress.

Volpatti seems to be favored between Weise and himself and he still has.

4 points in 50NHL games which would put him roughly on pace with both Parros and Orr. While providing all the same qualities so why get rid of him

Edited by WonderTwinPowers, 19 February 2013 - 12:35 PM.

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