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Toughness proves to be a winning formula


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#181 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

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Posting stuff like that really only makes you look silly especially since DeNiro is one of the most reputable posters on this forum
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#182 DeNiro

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

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How was I acting like a tough guy? <_<

You really don't make much sense. I think I'll stop responding to you now.
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#183 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:15 PM

Man your so full of s**t just admit that you were wrong. I don't care about your rep. If you lie which you did, then I got no respect for you.
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#184 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:23 PM

Well this discussion sure died off over nothing lol, anyways pretty good game so far, Weise actually held his own pretty good for a guy that basically got jumped for a good hit, wish the league would crack down more on this so there wasn't a fight after every clean big hit
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#185 Rypien37

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

Well this discussion sure died off over nothing lol, anyways pretty good game so far, Weise actually held his own pretty good for a guy that basically got jumped for a good hit, wish the league would crack down more on this so there wasn't a fight after every clean big hit


I'll agree with you there. Actually pretty impressed with that fight by Weise. Also agree with the fight after every hit issue.

When did this happen? Pretty much every big hit results in a fight now, regardless of who dishes and who receives. Gets annoying.
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#186 Caboose

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:09 PM

DeNiro is one of the most reputable posters on this forum


Now now now I wouldn't go that far...
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#187 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:16 AM

Chicago was tougher. Played bigger because of Butfyglen, Bolland, etc.
Anaheim was tougher. Grittier.
LA was too.
Detroit in many ways was tougher as well. Took tons of abuse and kept rolling.
Pitt not so tough.

Were those teams packed with fighters? Nope. Can Bolland kick Kesler's ass? Yep. Can Buttfyglin kick Bieksa's ass? Yep. Can Patty Kane kick Burr's ass? Anyone can kick Burr's ass. He's a hair puller and a diver.
No. It's not fighting alone. It's being able to back up your between-the-whistle nonsense. It's being able to call your opponent out with the knowledge that he actually is intimidated by it because he knows you are, indeed, tougher than he is. It's the stuff you're not afraid to do because you know you can whoop the other guy if it came to that.
The Canucks aren't he right kind of tough, IMO. There have been moves made in the right direction in past couple of seasons, but we're not there yet.


Bolland would not beat up Kesler and Kane would not beat up Burrows.
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#188 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:27 AM

Show me a team that wins because of toughness, and I'll show you one that doesn't win because of toughness.

Toughness helps, but you still need your skilled players, and goalies, to step up when it matters. We have yet to have our skilled players step up consistently in the playoffs, and that's why we haven't won it all yet.

It's a fine balance between toughness and skill, and Gillis has been trying to find the right balance. But thinking that if we just add a bunch of tough players, that we'll win is a ridiculous notion.


Absolutely.

Adding a 250 pound guy who cant skate and doesn't bring anything, who won't see any ice time in the playoffs at the expense of a 4th round pick makes no sense to me either.

"Show me a team that wins because of toughness, and I'll show you one that doesn't win because of toughness."
First point. Boston won because of their toughness, that opened up the ice for their skilled players. Canucks on the other hand didn't. Your observation is flawed.

"Toughness helps, but you still need your skilled players, and goalies, to step up when it matters. We have yet to have our skilled players step up consistently in the playoffs, and that's why we haven't won it all yet."
Second point. Toughness does indeed help. The reason why we couldn't score was due mostly in part of Thomas, but he had a good team in front of him. Chara, Lucic and Thornton just to name a few were intimidating enough for the Canucks. And adding players like Brad Marchand and Bergeron into mix didn't help either. They suffered no consequences because the Canucks had nobody to answer back. Who did we have? Bieksa? Rome? Burrows? Lappierre? Give your head a shake.

"But thinking that if we just add a bunch of tough players, that we'll win is a ridiculous notion."
Thirdly, you're putting words into my mouth. I never said to add a bunch of tough players. That's just plain stupid. We just need one legit heavyweight. That is all.


Boston didn't win because of toughness, they won because of goaltending, defensive strategy, because they were facing an injured opponent, and because they were more motivated and wanted it more.

Thornton coming into the line-up wasn't the missing key that won them the cup, it was Thomas & injuries/suspension more than anything.
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#189 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:15 AM

Now now now I wouldn't go that far...


Lol maybe substitute most for more, still compared to half of what goes on in this forum I'd give DeNiro some props
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#190 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:18 AM

I'll agree with you there. Actually pretty impressed with that fight by Weise. Also agree with the fight after every hit issue.

When did this happen? Pretty much every big hit results in a fight now, regardless of who dishes and who receives. Gets annoying.


The league says it doesn't want to give coaches a challenge, because it doesn't want to slow down the game. Yet never have any discipline for guys fighting after a clean hit which really slows down the game. Definitely annoying
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#191 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:32 AM

Beat non-issue ever.
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#192 Boudrias

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:25 AM

Rome did try to awnser but got the book thrown at him, then picked back up and was beaten with it for a pretty questionable hit. (Penalty yes, suspension? certainly not in the regular season for a player with no prior history) Or do you disagree?

While I've never wanted to be one to just blame officials or the league watching everything from that whole series it's hard not to say they didn't affect the outcome at least.

IMO the NHL knew full well when they suspended Rome that Van was done. A 0.5 second late hit, with intent. Give me a break.
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#193 Boudrias

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:32 AM

Absolutely.

Adding a 250 pound guy who cant skate and doesn't bring anything, who won't see any ice time in the playoffs at the expense of a 4th round pick makes no sense to me either.



Boston didn't win because of toughness, they won because of goaltending, defensive strategy, because they were facing an injured opponent, and because they were more motivated and wanted it more.

Thornton coming into the line-up wasn't the missing key that won them the cup, it was Thomas & injuries/suspension more than anything.

You might take comfort from that conclusion but not I. It is natural to focus on Thorton because he led the physical play but the fact does not change that Van was defeating Boston with their speed and puck possession game. Van was leading the series so even tho Thomas was playing well he was being beaten. Your point about the injuries is valid but also supports the concern many here have about Van's ability to meet a physical challenge through a full CUP run.
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#194 Vansicle

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:45 PM

Bolland would not beat up Kesler and Kane would not beat up Burrows.

Ok. Cool. Thanks for that.
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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#195 Vansicle

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:52 PM

Alright at least my sarcasm meter still works lol :P

I wouldn't say Burr often resorts to those things, he resorts to diving and being dramatic more. He's pulled hair once for sure, maybe twice if my memories right (which it usually isn't lol) and he bit Bergeron because he literally stuck his finger inside his mouth. I woulda bit him to haha

I never claimed they won those fights, But either of them against the guys you mentioned I'd put my money on our guys.

I would have liked an Ott for Raymond trade last season which was rumored but never came to fruition. But that wouldn't satisfy half the ppl I've been discussing with who've been calling for someone 6'4+ , 240pnds

Ott can actually play the game on the 3rd line and be an effective player and a deterrent so I'd support bringing him on. I'm still against needing an Orr or Parros or someone like that to only play 5 minutes a game

Isn't Kassian 6'4" 225lbs? He's a step in the right direction.
And Ott can play. The thing is, as much as I'd like a guy like him on the team, I'm not sure I'd like him on the team.
In any case, it's ignorant for people to pretend that toughness isn't important. There are different kinds of toughness, too. The twins bring toughness, in that they can take a hit and get right back up and clown you. Kes, too. There are several players like that on this team. What we need are a couple Raffi Torres. He was a big contributor in the cup run. Not the sole reason, but a key piece. We need that back.
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Snake Doctor, on 23 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:snapback.png

Miller is not on our list. It's Lack as our #1. There is no reason we would have traded both Schnieder and Luongo if we never intended to give Lack the #1 starting job.  Furthermore, the salary and term Miller is looking for is not in our favor.

 


#196 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:54 PM

I don't disagree in general. Take yesterdays Chicago game for example though; I don't think we lost because we were not tough.

I think we lost because we could not get the puck up the ice. How many turnovers caused 2 on 1's, 3 on 2's, how much extra time did we spend defending in our own end?

Its a game where you don't look tough because someone else is bigger or faster and you don't stack up!




Of course. Just take a look at all the cup winners in the past decade MINUS Detroit. It's a proven formula, yet every time I bring it up people of CDC still continue to disprove this obvious fact.

This answers the OP's question then. Toughness lets all players to play at a higher level and with more confidence. Hence its a winning formula.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 20 February 2013 - 02:56 PM.

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#197 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:26 PM

Dale Wiese getting punched in the face doesnt make your team tough even if it makes them 3rd in the league in fighting majors
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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#198 Understand

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:38 PM

Dale Wiese getting punched in the face doesnt make your team tough even if it makes them 3rd in the league in fighting majors


The bigger problem is that it seems that we are the only team in the NHL without a capable fighter on defense? I mean if you look at other teams, they have at least 1 or 2 defensemen who can fight. Our toughest guy on defense is KB3, who is not under 200 pounds.
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#199 SamJamIam

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:08 PM

The bigger problem is that it seems that we are the only team in the NHL without a capable fighter on defense? I mean if you look at other teams, they have at least 1 or 2 defensemen who can fight. Our toughest guy on defense is KB3, who is not under 200 pounds.


That post was a recipe for 10 flavours of stupid. You admit we have Bieksa who is definitely a good fighter, we have Vandermeer should we need him for a playoff series. Then up front we have Volpatti and Kass. So what is your complaint?
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#200 James van Riemsdyk

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:04 PM

That post was a recipe for 10 flavours of stupid. You admit we have Bieksa who is definitely a good fighter, we have Vandermeer should we need him for a playoff series. Then up front we have Volpatti and Kass. So what is your complaint?


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#201 Zack_Kassians_Elbow

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:34 AM

The bigger problem is that it seems that we are the only team in the NHL without a capable fighter on defense? I mean if you look at other teams, they have at least 1 or 2 defensemen who can fight. Our toughest guy on defense is KB3, who is not under 200 pounds.


Why is it so important to have a capable fighter on defense? The Canucks' style of play requires MOBILE defenseman, you get some 230lb + tough D man he wouldn't fit into the Canucks' system. We had plenty of big tough D men in 09 they were completely exposed by Chicago, why do you think Gillis acquired mobile D like Ehrhoff Hammer and Ballard.
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#202 Hugemanskost

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:06 AM

Bolland would not beat up Kesler and Kane would not beat up Burrows.


Maybe, but... My Dad could beat up your Dad.
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#203 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:34 AM

That post was a recipe for 10 flavours of stupid. You admit we have Bieksa who is definitely a good fighter, we have Vandermeer should we need him for a playoff series. Then up front we have Volpatti and Kass. So what is your complaint?


Ballads also a reasonable fighter, no KB3 but he'll hold his own with guys in his weight class when he feels its necessary.

Plus you don't really want your dmen fighting often, there's only 6 of them on the ice and if they get an extra penalty it can really mess up the PK units. Where forwards are a little easier to change around for a few shifts when needed

Edited by WonderTwinPowers, 22 February 2013 - 09:36 AM.

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#204 Understand

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:57 PM

Why is it so important to have a capable fighter on defense? The Canucks' style of play requires MOBILE defenseman, you get some 230lb + tough D man he wouldn't fit into the Canucks' system. We had plenty of big tough D men in 09 they were completely exposed by Chicago, why do you think Gillis acquired mobile D like Ehrhoff Hammer and Ballard.


I know MOBILE defenseman like Hammer and Ballard is important, I am not saying that we should have all the defenman over 225 pounds and fight, but at least one on the bottom pairing??
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#205 DaMacNamedDre

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:33 AM

we definitely need a big nasty net clearing Defensemen that can pound people, Alberts is not that guy.
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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Posted ImageBodee, on 18 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I know nothing about NHL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/328055-whats-wrong-with-me
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#206 Understand

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:40 PM

we definitely need a big nasty net clearing Defensemen that can pound people, Alberts is not that guy.


This.
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#207 Kack Zassian

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

Leafs PDO says otherwise...

Edited by Kack Zassian, 25 February 2013 - 05:40 PM.

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#208 Kack Zassian

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 05:41 PM

Look at the Leafs since they added toughness into their lineup....now sitting 4th in the league.

With Mark Fraser, Colton Orr, Frazer McLaren, Mike Brown, Dino Phaneuf, Franson etc, the Leafs are now one of the toughest team in the NHL. I don't think even the Bruins can intimdate them.


You should google the words "Maple Leafs PDO"

I think that will speak a lot more clearly about whats going on.


I don't want to tell you that you're wrong... but to say that Frazer Mcclaren is the reason the Leafs are doing decent is the furthest thing possible from correct.
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#209 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:19 PM

All those who see this as an issue?

I'm just interested as to what your solutions are? cause that's part of identify the problem; being able to also give an explanation on how to solve said problem.

So what is the solution to this "issue"?
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#210 ButterBean

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:37 PM

Show me a team that wins because of toughness, and I'll show you one that doesn't win because of toughness.

Toughness helps, but you still need your skilled players, and goalies, to step up when it matters. We have yet to have our skilled players step up consistently in the playoffs, and that's why we haven't won it all yet.

It's a fine balance between toughness and skill, and Gillis has been trying to find the right balance. But thinking that if we just add a bunch of tough players, that we'll win is a ridiculous notion.

Agreed. So funny to see people exclude 1 aspect and name it the reason to win a Cup. Takes a combination of many different things.
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